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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: friartuck]
    #1419627 - 03/31/03 10:32 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Actually, that's one of the vaguest parts of the war...what's it say "severe consequences" wtf does that mean anyway wtf wtf wtf, if only we listened to France instead of making fun of their armpits.




it was only vague to those that wanted it to be.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: Phluck]
    #1419640 - 03/31/03 10:40 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The reason people are standing up against the US comitting war crimes, and not Iraq, is that the US is their country, and is supposed to be a democracy. Bush is supposed to listen to his people, while it's well established that Saddam doesn't give a fuck what protesters have to say.




We are not a democracy. We have never been a democracy. God willing we will never be a democracy.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: ]
    #1419646 - 03/31/03 10:45 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

As requested, here is a link to the full text of the Geneva Conventions.

I don't think there's anything in the Geneva Conventions covering reasons for going to war. That would be covered in the United Nations Charter (another treaty which the US ratified).


Innvertigo, there is one obvious reason the US should abide by the Geneval Conventions. It is US law as well as international law. They were ratified by the Senate, and, according to the Constitution, that makes them US law.

Surely you could not mean to suggest that because a criminal violates the law that our police officers (or military, in foreign engagements) enforcing the law should be able to violate the law with impunity? Our society is based on the rule of law, not men. If we were to discard this idea we remove the basis for our authority to enforce those same laws.

Note that the oath taken by all members of our military service (and government officials) is as follows:

''I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.''

If Iraqis are violating the Geneva Conventions, then they are criminals and should be prosecuted as such. If any of our troops violate them, they should be subject to exactly the same prosecution (as required under the Geneva Conventions).


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1419651 - 03/31/03 10:49 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo, there is one obvious reason the US should abide by the Geneval Conventions. It is US law as well as international law. They were ratified by the Senate, and, according to the Constitution, that makes them US law.




I agree that we should follow the Geneva convention, i was playing devils advocate. Is there an echo in here?

Quote:

If Iraqis are violating the Geneva Conventions, then they are criminals and should be prosecuted as such.




If?

Quote:

If any of our troops violate them, they should be subject to exactly the same prosecution (as required under the Geneva Conventions).




I agree.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1419661 - 03/31/03 10:57 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

>so you thinbk it's ok for us to use any means neccesary to topple saddam?

What?

>it was only vague to those that wanted it to be.

That makes no sense.

It was VAGUE intentionally so that the US could invade Iraq and still be within the realm of international law. It was dirty politics. It does not justify the death that the white man is bringing forth on the Arabs.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: friartuck]
    #1419672 - 03/31/03 11:02 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

That makes no sense.




coming from you, i'm not surprised.

Quote:

It was VAGUE intentionally so that the US could invade Iraq and still be within the realm of international law.




your hatred towards the United States is clouding your logic again.

Quote:

It was dirty politics. It does not justify the death that the white man is bringing forth on the Arabs.





what? Playing the race card? Why am I not surprised.

I'm not sure you have made any points worth discussing, i'm beginning to feel sorry for you.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1419680 - 03/31/03 11:08 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Saddam, who if he has used civilians as shields, and caught alive, will be punished for war crimes. If Bush were to use the same tactics, he should be punished for the same.



Maybe he should, but he wouldn't. It seems that since the U.S. is the only remaining superpower, we can get away with just about anything and not have to answer to international law, as other countries do. But I'm sure that someday the American empire will fall, and if there are any surviving war criminals here, they will be brought to justice.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1419723 - 03/31/03 11:30 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you again TM.

You make a great cybarian. I could have found it myself if I wasn't up to my eyeballs in the 10,000 things.

Very informative.

Cheers,

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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: ]
    #1419999 - 03/31/03 02:18 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

All this talk about human shields....what about the people who live around the airforce base in the middle of the suburbs here in the city I live? Are they human shields too?

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1420033 - 03/31/03 03:00 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

i think it is apparant that the war in Iraq will not and has not been played by rules of International law. With that said should the United States start fighting dirty? If not then why not and if so, why?




This war was started illegaly,so what does it matter to bush if he "plays by the rules", or not? The only reason america isn't fighting dirty is because (from bush) "americas only interest in iraq is the liberation of the iraqi people", and to play dirty would contradict that motive and undermine support. Wait till the next few invasions, then the true colors shall be seen. Iraq is a test, to see how forcefully and aggresively america can move on to other evil or rogue states.


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1420041 - 03/31/03 03:06 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

This war was started illegaly


I keep hearing this, yet I still am unclear on which laws were broken, could anyone fill me in? Thanks


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: Skikid16]
    #1420054 - 03/31/03 03:12 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Hmm, dont know the specific laws that were broken...
They did go in without UN approval, but i dont think that makes it illegal. Mabye it wasn't nessecarily illegal......it just wasn't legal. I mean to invade another country without UN approval when the country prior to the invasion was currying UN support, then goes in anyway when the UN makes an informed descision not favorable to thier stance.

Needless to say, this invasion was not sanctioned by the UN, and world support was strongly against it....and for good reason too!


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: friartuck]
    #1420070 - 03/31/03 03:27 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

It was VAGUE intentionally so that the US could invade Iraq and still be within the realm of international law. It was dirty politics. It does not justify the death that the white man is bringing forth on the Arabs.



So you concede that 1441 allows the invasion?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1420088 - 03/31/03 03:41 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

It was VAGUE intentionally so that the US could invade Iraq and still be within the realm of international law. It was dirty politics. It does not justify the death that the white man is bringing forth on the Arabs.



So you concede that 1441 allows the invasion? 




So you concede that it is an invasion?  :smirk:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1420211 - 03/31/03 05:19 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

This war was started illegaly,so what does it matter to bush if he "plays by the rules", 




Not according to 1441.  The next thing your going to say is that he wasn't elected. :smirk:

Quote:

The only reason america isn't fighting dirty is because (from bush) "americas only interest in iraq is the liberation of the iraqi people", and to play dirty would contradict that motive and undermine support. 




did i just miss something or did you just confirm the REAL reason the United States is going to war?  What happened to the "it's all about oil" you libbies have been spouting?  Either way i'm glad you're on board.

Quote:

Wait till the next few invasions, then the true colors shall be seen. Iraq is a test, to see how forcefully and aggresively america can move on to other evil or rogue states.




we'll see...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1420215 - 03/31/03 05:21 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

So you concede that it is an invasion?



ofcourse it's an invasion. How else are you going to oust saddam? Via e-mail?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1420299 - 03/31/03 06:19 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

As the globe's current super-power, I believe it's America's duty to act accordingly to standards that were set by us and the rest of the globe.

We are the contemporary model for the world. If you were raising a child, would you tell him that it is ok to stoop to someone elses level?


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The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1420321 - 03/31/03 06:33 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I would teach him to defend himself if needed, have no doubt.

If to you, that means stooping to someone elses level, then yes, that's what I would teach him.

Why, would you teach him to just let others beat him up?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1420336 - 03/31/03 06:41 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Why, would you teach him to just let others beat him up?



This is something that I have thought about quite often. I would want him to defend himself, but only to the extent where he needs defending. If a punch is thrown at him, the proper defense (IMO) would be to block, not to punch back.

If you relate this to the current world conflict, you'd get something like this: Saddam has continually teased George (Has not thrown punches) and George has thrown a million punches back. That's not defense.


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The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Should the US Follow the Geneva Convention? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1420350 - 03/31/03 06:48 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

You can only block so many punches before one lands.

The proper response is a overwhelming blow in return. This is the only way to discourage further blows.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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