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Offlinedurantz
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Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point
    #14188184 - 03/26/11 06:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I have found that certain people refer to dictionaries in order to prove a point however I found a serious problem with this approach.

The problem is that the dictionary meaning of the word may be VERY different from the cultural meaning of a word. I make it a point not to use the dictionary because

a) I don't like to discuss topics I'm unfamiliar with, and
b) if I describe the definition in my own words it may be closer to the cultural meaning than a dictionary definition.

People seem to make the mistake that the dictionary definition is the TRUE definition of a word. And the thing is that once you pull out the dictionary it really gives the other person two options,

1. Agree with the dictionary meaning (at the expense of the cultural meaning) or
2. Disagree with the dictionary meaning and make yourself sound 'irrational' or 'insane'.

Well I am challenging the notion that the dictionary is the ultimate reference guide. I believe it should only be used to clarify meaning. It gives a possible interpretation that two people CAN agree upon, not what they MUST agree upon.

And to say that someone is irrational or stupid because they don't accept the dictionary meaning is committing a fallacy.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: durantz]
    #14188191 - 03/26/11 06:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What do you mean by the 'cultural meaning' of a word?  (Heh, inb4 pulling out a dictionary definition of the words 'cultural' and 'meaning'.  :tongue:)  How would we find what the cultural meaning of a specific word is?  The dictionary is at least a common standpoint that we can all agree on.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: durantz] * 2
    #14188192 - 03/26/11 06:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I make it a point to use the dictionary.  Otherwise there is communication breakdown.  "True" definitions of words are defined by the population at large, and this is reflected by dictionaries.  (I actually prefer wikipedia to a dictionary)



Quote:

And to say that someone is irrational or stupid because they don't accept the dictionary meaning is committing a fallacy.




What fallacy?  I think people making up their own definitions just to suit their belief is irrational and stupid.


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: DieCommie]
    #14188206 - 03/26/11 06:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I make it a point to use the dictionary.  Otherwise there is communication breakdown.  "True" definitions of words are defined by the population at large, and this is reflected by dictionaries.  (I actually prefer wikipedia to a dictionary)




No you must realise that MANY MANY people do not use written language to the level that we do on this forum. A dictionary is really used to define written language but oral language is a lot less precise so cultural meaning is more relevant.

The dictionary is simply an anchor point around which meaning can move. When a boat is anchored it doesn't stay in exactly the same spot, but it moves around the anchor point, sometimes close sometimes far away.

Language is always changing which is why the dictionary is updated constantly. However, the simple fact that the users on the forum are from all over the world means that we are going to have different cultural meanings for words. In some cases they may be very similar, in other cases quite different.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: durantz]
    #14188213 - 03/26/11 06:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That doesnt change the fact that if two people are using the same word, and each is defining it differently, that is a roadblock to discussion and exchange of ideas.  Why would you want that?

If you dont want to use the dictionary definition, then at least state your esoteric definition ahead of time so people dont get confused.


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: DieCommie]
    #14188231 - 03/26/11 06:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
That doesnt change the fact that if two people are using the same word, and each is defining it differently, that is a roadblock to discussion and exchange of ideas.  Why would you want that?

If you dont want to use the dictionary definition, then at least state your esoteric definition ahead of time so people dont get confused.




Yes difference in language is a definite roadblock to discussion as made obviously clear by an example of two people trying to have a discussion in completely different languages.

But just because we all speak English doesn't mean that we are not using different dialects of English... our differences are more subtle than if we were speaking different languages, but they are still differences.

I'm saying that it is unfair to use the dictionary definition to try and 'prove' someone wrong. You are not proving them wrong, you are simply pointing out that their definition of a word differs from the dictionary definition. But how does this achieve anything?


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Invisiblemikehauncho
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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point *DELETED* [Re: DieCommie]
    #14188239 - 03/26/11 06:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by mikehauncho

Reason for deletion: LE



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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: mikehauncho]
    #14188251 - 03/26/11 06:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Wow did we just read each others minds?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: mikehauncho] * 3
    #14188252 - 03/26/11 06:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

And if they are choosing to use another definition then the one agreed upon by everyone then they are just being assholes...




That is done very, very often in this forum.  For example somebody will argue for the existence of God, and then when pressed you find out they are defining God as nature or some bullshit like that...


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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: DieCommie]
    #14193046 - 03/27/11 03:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Can god not be nature?

God being everything makes more sense to me than an egg opening up and the sun and earth coming out,
or catholocism. God cannot be defined because God is personal and relative, he is w/e you want him to be, not one thing that has a common definition by everyone.

:shrug::stoned:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: realfuzzhead] * 1
    #14193118 - 03/27/11 04:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Can god not be nature?




We already have a word for nature... its nature.



Quote:

God cannot be defined...




Incorrect.  All words can be, and are defined.  (just because the definition is arbitrary does not make it less real)


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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: DieCommie]
    #14193242 - 03/27/11 04:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

?? god is nothing more than a concept used by humans to ease the immense stress associated with the concious knowledge of iminent death. We must feel that something is "eternal" in order to ease the unbeleivable stress of feeling an "end" coming.

So how can you define which is totally subjective and completely relevent and just as true between every person. If i honestly beleive that A giant floating spaghetti monster will rape me foreternity while feeding me watermelon size pinapples, that is just as effecient of a God as anyother one is.


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OfflineCynosure
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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #14193853 - 03/27/11 07:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

realfuzzhead said:
?? god is nothing more than a concept used by humans to ease the immense stress associated with the concious knowledge of iminent death. We must feel that something is "eternal" in order to ease the unbeleivable stress of feeling an "end" coming.

So how can you define which is totally subjective and completely relevent and just as true between every person. If i honestly beleive that A giant floating spaghetti monster will rape me foreternity while feeding me watermelon size pinapples, that is just as effecient of a God as anyother one is.




You define perspective, don't you?

That's also a subjective concept.  Technically, all words can be considered "subjective and just as true between every person".  My definition of red, a whore, and pasta may all be different than yours, but this doesn't make them undefinable.  Language isn't for yourself, its purpose is to help you communicate with others.

I agree that dictionaries are there to form a common base of language (both for us to learn the meaning of, how to pronounce, and use words) in a sentence.  However, this can easily be transcended as we find new personal meanings for words (through experience) or build layers of abstraction on top these "base" words.  For example, you often see a line of poetry that contains a word that is marked as an "adjective" in the dictionary but is used as a noun.  That a personal take on the word and any reader can just as easily derive meaning from this as we can a word used according to the dictionary's base-although, they may pick up something completely different than what the reader intended.


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"You can peel it [language] off the ceiling and make it dance in front of you" - McKenna

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: DieCommie]
    #14194075 - 03/27/11 07:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

God cannot be defined...




Incorrect.  All words can be, and are defined.  (just because the definition is arbitrary does not make it less real)


+1


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: Poid]
    #14194093 - 03/27/11 07:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i retract my original argument. God can be defined, however it must be about the concept of god not what god truly is


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: realfuzzhead]
    #14194114 - 03/27/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:god:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinerealfuzzhead
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Re: Never Use a Dictionary to Prove a Point [Re: Poid]
    #14194165 - 03/27/11 07:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:yesnod:


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