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Offlinenoobieman
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #14193199 - 03/27/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:Where it always goes wrong, unless you're very lucky, is the period of believing, fervently, passionately, and generally temporarily, that you - yes you - have found the truth.  The same truth (obviously) that all the people who ever spoke or wrote about such things were privy to as well. It makes you special, but that kind of special stinks.  Fortunately it wears off.

:peace:PS





When will it wear off for you? You're the one dogmatically throwing your beliefs here as if you're "in the know." So if you've got extraordinary proof for your exatraordinary claim (that you are right and people who disagree are wrong), please enlighten us.

I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusions, only that you have conclusions based on so little.

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with [Re: noobieman]
    #14193263 - 03/27/11 04:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Chill!  What's your problem here?  I can state my opinion all day long, as can you.  Nobody has an edge on the truth here.  So what makes you so testy?

What exactly do you want to know?  Have you tripped much?  I have.  Have you meditated much?  I have.  Have you investigated any of the things I was talking about in any depth?  I have.

But I'm certainly not required to explain why I know what I know when I say what I know. Nor to explain every conclusion, because frankly, unless you've gone there and spent years working on it you haven't really got a clue.

This: 
Quote:

So if you've got extraordinary proof for your exatraordinary claim (that you are right and people who disagree are wrong)




I've not said this at all.  I've not said "I'm right" once.  I've just said what I think about what's being said.  Try a little harder to draw the distinction.  I said you didn't get it, and that's all I meant.

:peace:PS

PS, Hey, good thread!  This forum has been f'ng tedious recently...

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Offlinenoobieman
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #14193368 - 03/27/11 05:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Nobody has an edge on the truth here.




That's all I'm saying. No problem. Not getting riled up.

So when you say things like "There is no god," I'm hoping you see that you sound dogmatic and sure in an area where epistemological limitations suggest caution.

To answer your questions: I've had many supernatural experiences in life, separate from trips. I've been "at this" for nearly 30 years. For about 25 years I pursued the meaning of life under every rock, behind every tree. Joined cults. Investigated/participated in religions, the occult, lucid dreams and dreamwork, astrology, atheism, quantum mechanics, paranormal phenomena, near-death experiences, psychics, etc. etc. etc. I've taken years of psychology, undergrad and graduate research courses, and was a research assistant at a university. But I've still had numerous shared experiences that break the rules of physics as we know them and defy plausible psychological theory.

I'm trying to help you, believe it or not. Not to say I've got all the answers. Only that I have grown quite insightful about how to be intellectually honest in the absence of verifiable knowledge. I would not assert the existence or nonexistence of something that is pure subjective belief. When I see people (on any side of any argument) spew dogma without strong evidence, I tend to urge them to consider how they sound. It doesn't advance a discussion to keep it at that level.

My belief (not certainty) is that we will evolve intellectually as a species when we embrace our limitations. There is more wisdom in defining what we don't know than there is in defining what very little we think we know. My humble opinion. The possibilities are exciting.

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OfflineNunbuh_Chrubble
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with "God", no longer athiest (please read) [Re: growbit]
    #14193431 - 03/27/11 05:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

growbit said:
I've been preparing for what I experienced last night for many months, and finally was ready.

I had practiced meditation for a while [... ] I was on my bed, listening to shpongle, with a scarf tied around my eyes to keep them closed.
[...]
- I discovered that bad trips, anxiety on the come up etc. are just tests that you need to go through, and if you relax your mind and become a pure willing observer, you are taken to higher levels that you never thought of
[...]
- There is NO meaning to life. There is absolutely no point to it. We are bound by logic in this universe of physical laws, and thus seek, logically, to define meaning. The beauty is that it is all about experiencing life, as it happens, through your senses.

[...]

I have no urge to take this dose again any time soon, although would like to keep my spiritual side checked in now and then (maybe twice a year).

I will just keep on meditating as much as possible, projecting love and sensing my world around me in the present moment.

Thank you for you time.





That's totally how I do it. Blindfold over the eyes, listen to music (sometimes), lying on a soft surface (I use blankets and pillows on the floor), and prepare with fasting, meditation, and contemplation.

I've come to the same conclusion that NOTHING is at the center of reality. That's the secret, that's the punchline of the Cosmic Joke. And trying to explain it may sound nihilistic and depressing to people who don't understand, but finally experiencing it is SO LIBERATING! There's NOTHING to worry about and NOTHING to satisfy us! So just relax, experience life, and try to be a loving and compassionate person along the way.

I'll do acid when I go to festies, but I'll only do shrooms like once a year or so and only in a heavily ritualized fashion. High doses and Silent Darkness are the way to go once you've become well acquainted with more "reasonable" doses and lower "level" experiences (not for noobs).

I hope this all works out for you and you're able to integrate these realizations into your daily life.

:namaste:


--------------------


"This day is a lover..."

~Rumi

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InvisibleSobercolober
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with "God", no longer athiest (please read) [Re: Nunbuh_Chrubble]
    #14197307 - 03/28/11 11:20 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well I am not sure about seeing god. I have certainly had odd, strange, spiritual and insightful and useful experiences. But I think to see god on a trip you have to be somewhat of that mindset to start with.

Personally I "feel" new versions of familiar energies.

God has religious connotation of course, as in a monotheism.

I tend to get more of a "things moving behind the scenes" vibe , posibly more akin to a Hindu view.

One things for sure is it incredibly interesting and I find it very valuable. I think it's an ongoing path  of unfolding events much like every day life in fact, rather than a one off realization.

Reminder to self and others: it is easy to become closed minded despite the attached sense of "open mindedness" with such substance usage, always retire and consider things afterwards and re-consider as opinions often evolve with time, insight and experience.

Peace and understanding to all, whatever your beliefs or thoughts.:cool:

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Offlinemicrodotty
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with "God", no longer athiest (please read) [Re: Sobercolober]
    #14198118 - 03/28/11 02:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

i've heard God speak to me once on mushrooms.. your not the only one!

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with [Re: noobieman]
    #14198430 - 03/28/11 03:27 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

To answer your questions: I've had many supernatural experiences in life, separate from trips. I've been "at this" for nearly 30 years. For about 25 years I pursued the meaning of life under every rock, behind every tree. Joined cults. Investigated/participated in religions, the occult, lucid dreams and dreamwork, astrology, atheism, quantum mechanics, paranormal phenomena, near-death experiences, psychics, etc. etc. etc. I've taken years of psychology, undergrad and graduate research courses, and was a research assistant at a university. But I've still had numerous shared experiences that break the rules of physics as we know them and defy plausible psychological theory.




Too bad about the cults. :tongue: No offense, but I doubt you understand physics well enough to be aware of what "breaking the rules" actually means. :shake:

I was a psychic child, and I got interested in "anomalous" phenomenon over 35 years ago as a physics student and have worked with fringe effects from inside of modern physics off and on since then. I know a eminent paranormal psychologist quite well (no names here), and have discussed such things with a host of researchers from that and related academic disciplines.  Over 500 trips since about '78 have revealed more than ample examples from mushroom states to support some qualified conclusions:

  • These things are surpassingly strange when experienced.
  • QED physics under the Copenhagen interpretation is capable of explaining almost all of them, just.
  • More comprehensive interpretations (e.g, many worlds, branes, Feynman (reverse)causality, or (my current theory) a strict causal reading with no fixed metrics) do a better job.
  • There are still things (fill in your own list if you have one) that are left unreconciled.  These are grounds for further study.
  • Observer effect (mainstay of Copenhagen) appears to be illusory.
  • Reality lines can be split and recombined at will.
  • The same applies to time.
  • Very few ways to test the strangest of the strange.


IME the mind seeks patterns, the shroomed mind finds this enhanced in many ways.  It leads to false conclusions when assuming the reality "censor" operates correctly under the influence of psychedelics. Just because it "happened" doesn't mean it was real. Psychedelic states are similar to dreams, with a similar lack of control and an enhanced sense of reality.  This applies to one's sense of the numinous, that is, all forms of "higher powers", usually assigned to whatever belief system you posses or possessed.  IME it's no wonder people talk to God and God talks back. 

But the most likely explanation is parsimonious, and it ain't happening in any real sense.  Schizophrenics hear voices as well, but we don't worship them.  I've had the same experience years ago after a mild brain concussion.  Plants talked to me.  I could read information from things just by touching them.  Total strangers approached me on the street and gave me information I needed.  I could "program" reality by entering a sort of REM state briefly, and then it would play out like a dream.  Was any of that real?  OTOH I could make clouds change shape - and can still do that while shroomed. I've experienced lucid - and accurate - visions. See "surpassingly strange" above. 

Real or not, does that make it supernatural, somehow outside of the natural world?  No, I think all it means is that maybe our societal-conditioned reality constructs aren't very good. So what else is new?  Who hasn't done psych drugs and found themselves loathing the modern world and its spirit crushing priorities?

Quote:

I'm trying to help you, believe it or not.




Well, strongly recommend you save that for people who ask for help, cause you're just assuming too much on little information, and casting yourself into a role that nobody will thank you for.  All that study doesn't really give you insight, if you don't practice insight itself.  IMHO it seems you're working on the outside.

Quote:

Not to say I've got all the answers. Only that I have grown quite insightful about how to be intellectually honest in the absence of verifiable knowledge.




That's as may be, although those "answers" can result from asking the wrong questions. :wink: With ego in charge all you really generate is rationalization.

See, here's where (it seems to me) you're missing the boat entirely.  And sad to say, even 30 years of applied study on the fringes doesn't get you on board, because it's not something you can easily grasp intellectually, if at all.  You apparently believe/hope that implicit knowledge of psychedelic states can be rectified (or reified if you'd rather) into ordinary mental constructs and operated on there. Ever had any real success with this?

The same phenomenon operates in meditation, at least if you practice pure insight or point-concentration techniques.  Thoughts arise, they're acknowledged, they pass, after enough time thoughts cease altogether.  Illumination ensues in the absence of ego.  Mental action continues but without the limitations of knowledge-based constructs.  How you gonna think about that?  Where's the room for some half-assed idea of "God" when there are no boundaries anymore?

Quote:

I would not assert the existence or nonexistence of something that is pure subjective belief. When I see people (on any side of any argument) spew dogma without strong evidence, I tend to urge them to consider how they sound. It doesn't advance a discussion to keep it at that level.




Yeah, that would apply if dogma was what was being spewed, but IMHO you might want to just sit on those urges.  You've perceived the common wrapper alright (the words my friend) but you don't see the package (what they refer to) is actually empty.  If there's no belief there's no place for delusion to creep in.  In direct perception of the ground of being you see all things as they are, not as ordinary perception construes them: labels around artificial distinctions.  I don't claim to do this all the time, but I do it often enough to know it firsthand.  At that point there's no intellectual discrimination of "verifiable" standing in the way anymore.

I say all this stuff time and again and every once in a while somebody actually gets it.  Sometimes they even go "aha!  thank you!"  For most people they just confuse it, they have all their baggage and an occasional impulse to lose some of it, but nothing much ever comes of it. There is no point to any of it, believe it.

Higher people hear of the Tao
They diligently practice it
Average people hear of the Tao
They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it
Lower people hear of the Tao
They laugh loudly at it
If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao


I will point out something from some esoteric Buddhist instruction that might help you a bit, of course I don't know you and you don't know me, but one can try anyway.  During meditation, after you get well past the preliminary stages, you start to have visions where you'll see the patriarchs, you become aware of things you can't know through sensory input, you experience psychic phenomenon, you merge with "god" - these things are called siddhis. They also occur with psychedelics. Many people mistakenly seek them, but the important instruction is that they aren't the point, indeed they're no more than distractions on the path, and should be treated as such.  The path leads to...well, I can't tell you what the path leads to... :lol:  You'll have to find that out.

And no, really I'm not trying to help you.  Only you can do that.

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Offline245willow19

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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #14198445 - 03/28/11 03:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

try it again!! if it happens more then twice, your on to something new brav!! you've got God!! in your heart


--------------------
....

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Offlinenoobieman
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with [Re: 245willow19]
    #14199823 - 03/28/11 07:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Primalsoup, I wish you well.

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Invisiblenglsnv
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with "God", no longer athiest (please read) [Re: joemolloy]
    #14200671 - 03/28/11 09:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
What to do with it?  Nothing.  It's fucking bullshit.  The only change that I have seen is that myself and others like me become weird assholes.




when i first started tripping i would come down and think to myself, now what? i'd felt all these amazing things and had all these revelations but afterwards i'm still here half naked in my apartment with no friends and with no significant direction in my life.

then i realized that i was the only one that could change my self and my life. the mushrooms could show me the way, but i would have to actually be the one that walks down the path, accepting the changes and hardships that would come along the way.

you seem to be one of those people who finds comfort in their own negativity. i'd like to be able to alter your perspective but i doubt i can do that with my lacking ability with words, considering DMT couldnt do the job.

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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with [Re: noobieman]
    #14200706 - 03/28/11 09:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.... yeah, makes perfect fuckin' sense.


--------------------

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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with [Re: snail]
    #14200811 - 03/28/11 10:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"I am just a body in some meaningless disjunct objective universe which will perish, but not before I do, into oblivion from whence I came, merely because a giant mossy rock made of star matter got too close to a young star. Nature is self-punishment that wishes only to prolong its punishment and who'd want to do this shit for eternity anyway? Please kill me." -Neckbeard

"All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. I also realised we are not the body, that we are pure loving spirit. Eternity, peace and heaven are our inheritance and we're all going to make it there." -Bill Hicks (or something close)

Sort of just seems to be whatever goes with your mood doesn't it?

But let's be realistic and choose the depressing one, because when you're depressed you're being more realistic because when you're realistic everything is depressing.

Wait, there's no chance I'm just depressed in the first place, is there?!


--------------------

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Offlineiluvfungi
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with "God", no longer athiest (please read) [Re: growbit]
    #14202478 - 03/29/11 06:39 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Cool man. Talking to God on mushrooms is possible. You can do it with a much smaller dose if you just believe in him.

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Offlinealexc
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with "God", no longer athiest (please read) [Re: growbit]
    #14203007 - 03/29/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Not to sound like a dick, but I doubt taking shrooms actually had you talking to the "real" god (if one does exist)

It's clearly your mind just running rampant. I don't see how someone can seriously change their faith after a shroom or lsd trip and I've had some intense shit happen to me, but I know at the end of the day I'd never really communicate with an actual god on either substance, that's just silly.

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with "God", no longer athiest (please read) [Re: alexc]
    #14204195 - 03/29/11 03:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

People will always be offended when you attack their pet god.  It exists for them and that oughta be good enough for you too.:jesus:

Well, true believers are a dime a dozen or more, and they don't appreciate people saying they're insane.  Obviously. They love their god like a squirrel loves nuts. :squirrelnut:

But let's see here, I can think of one word that explains it:  hallucination.

That's right, y'all took a hallucinatory drug (remember?) and it causes you to:
  • see things that aren't there
  • hear things that aren't there
  • think things that aren't real
  • feel things that aren't real
  • while believing that it's all true

Excuse me while I :dielaughing: but what's wrong with this picture?

I expect the god-monkeys to come out again and try to chew on my ass some more, insult my intelligence, ridicule my arguments, demand I disprove their stupid ideas, and just generally step in it. Go for it! It doesn't make you right, it just makes you feel better. I still love ya!

:peace:PS


--------------------

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Edited by PrimalSoup (03/29/11 03:48 PM)

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OfflineAldebaran
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with "God", no longer athiest (please read) [Re: Diacetylmentlegen]
    #14205045 - 03/29/11 05:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting thread, growbit describes the whole "God trip" thing very well.

Diacetylmentlegen said:
Quote:


thoughts I've had on mushrooms really seem no different to any other thoughts in that regard. They come into my mind and no matter how strong or whatever they are I can say "yes, I'll take that on board" or "no... I'll stay outside of that for now".

So one thing I'm genuinely asking you people from your own experiences... is that what shrooms are like at higher doses? Or do you really lose the ability to resist such thoughts at all? Does it impose its will on you or... something else? Or maybe relegate you to a mere viewer of thoughts and then later you can pick them apart when you have your sense?




In relation to the kind of "god experience" we are talking about, at high doses I find that the effect of the psilocybin is to cause a very sudden "realization" or epiphany. The trip becomes stronger, and stronger, until it has effectively "taken over". In a suddenly dawning awareness, comparable to waking up from a dream, it seems obvious that God is real, this is God. I'm not really talking about some actual conversation with God, or some vision of a bloke with a beard - it's more like the trip itself is a direct manifestation of God.

This is not a state of mind where you are weighing up evidence and thinking logically, this is full-on rapture, mania, delusion. The important thing about a delusional state is that it feels more real than reality; your thoughts seem to be fundamental, unshakeable truths. Even if they are completely mad. There is a slow spiral down from this state, where you slowly pick apart the truth of what is going on, and at some point realize that the revelations and ground-breaking discoveries may have something to do with the boatload of psychedelic drugs you ate a few hours ago...
:owl:

Some interesting comments by Primalsoup:

Quote:

You've perceived the common wrapper alright (the words my friend) but you don't see the package (what they refer to) is actually empty.  If there's no belief there's no place for delusion to creep in.  In direct perception of the ground of being you see all things as they are, not as ordinary perception construes them: labels around artificial distinctions.  I don't claim to do this all the time, but I do it often enough to know it firsthand.  At that point there's no intellectual discrimination of "verifiable" standing in the way anymore.




I'm beginning to find Buddhism quite interesting, especially the way that it seems to avoid any requirement to actually "believe" in anything as such. However, I'm somewhat sceptical of any system that claims to enable people to "see things as they really are". I'm not sure that I really have any burning desire these days to discover any kind of "true reality." I don't know what that would mean, it seems like an empty concept. I'm starting to wonder if buddhism is a kind of embrace of this emptiness at the heart of the search for meaning?
:peace:


--------------------
I wrote that, but I meant something else

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with "God", no longer athiest (please read) [Re: Aldebaran]
    #14206411 - 03/29/11 09:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I'm beginning to find Buddhism quite interesting, especially the way that it seems to avoid any requirement to actually "believe" in anything as such. However, I'm somewhat sceptical of any system that claims to enable people to "see things as they really are". I'm not sure that I really have any burning desire these days to discover any kind of "true reality." I don't know what that would mean, it seems like an empty concept. I'm starting to wonder if buddhism is a kind of embrace of this emptiness at the heart of the search for meaning?




Well, gee, Buddhism doesn't show you "the way", it just shows you how to find the way.  IME no knowledge can be transmitted that frees you from the confines of knowledge.  The only thing that does that is to look closely at your illusions about reality and actively discard them.  Once/if/when you do that you're left with what was already there before you ever started thinking about it. It's not emptiness, it's sort of the exact opposite of emptiness, what I was referring to as "the ground of being."  Some people might call it "god" I suppose. :shrug:  But it's not a thing, it's the absence of thingness, if that makes any sense at all (to you that is :lol:, not in general).

:peace:PS

Edited by PrimalSoup (03/30/11 11:01 PM)

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Invisiblejoemolloy
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with "God", no longer athiest (please read) [Re: Aldebaran]
    #14211202 - 03/30/11 06:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


I'm beginning to find Buddhism quite interesting, especially the way that it seems to avoid any requirement to actually "believe" in anything as such. However, I'm somewhat sceptical of any system that claims to enable people to "see things as they really are". I'm not sure that I really have any burning desire these days to discover any kind of "true reality." I don't know what that would mean, it seems like an empty concept. I'm starting to wonder if buddhism is a kind of embrace of this emptiness at the heart of the search for meaning?
:peace:




I just stopped searching and asking these questions.  I don't think anyone has these answers, they are full of shit if they claim they do, and I don't think we even have the capability of understanding the answers if there are any.  Buddhists have as much of a clue as the Christians.  None.


--------------------
Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.

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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with "God", no longer athiest (please read) [Re: joemolloy]
    #14211343 - 03/30/11 07:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

joemolloy said:
Quote:


I'm beginning to find Buddhism quite interesting, especially the way that it seems to avoid any requirement to actually "believe" in anything as such. However, I'm somewhat sceptical of any system that claims to enable people to "see things as they really are". I'm not sure that I really have any burning desire these days to discover any kind of "true reality." I don't know what that would mean, it seems like an empty concept. I'm starting to wonder if buddhism is a kind of embrace of this emptiness at the heart of the search for meaning?
:peace:




I just stopped searching and asking these questions.  I don't think anyone has these answers, they are full of shit if they claim they do, and I don't think we even have the capability of understanding the answers if there are any.  Buddhists have as much of a clue as the Christians.  None.




You should learn that religions only help people if they believe in it. What doesn't help you, may help other people. Are you denying that a Buddhist master can have control over their chakras? Or be one with the cosmos? Or reach enlightenment? Surely you would know what they see and feel better than they do, right?

Before you right something off as "bullshit," you should learn that the main rule of life is "to each their own" and that you, nor anyone else are right.

You clearly have as much of a clue as anyone else does.


--------------------
Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Mindblowing trip on 9 grams, talking with "God", no longer athiest (please read) [Re: joemolloy]
    #14212546 - 03/30/11 10:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I just stopped searching and asking these questions.  I don't think anyone has these answers, they are full of shit if they claim they do, and I don't think we even have the capability of understanding the answers if there are any.  Buddhists have as much of a clue as the Christians.  None.




If it works for you, cool.  Getting beyond "questions" and "answers" takes more work.

:peace:PS

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