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InvisiblePoid
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Psychology is a pseudoscience
    #14190636 - 03/27/11 05:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14190624#14190624
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
psychology is a pseudo science





Is this true?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinejackdaniels
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Poid]
    #14190677 - 03/27/11 05:47 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

nope. however, it is an infant science. still in the womb even.

modern psychology is like astronomy before the invention of the telescope. for example, to quote my psychology professor, psychiatric medication is like taking a sledgehammer to the mind when a little tap from a jewelry hammer would do.

our brains are not built in such a way that we can easily understand. its obvious when you consider its incredible power evolved over billions of years out of minuscule primeval nerve cells. none of it works in such a way that we can isolate variables on the degree we need to. its a mess.

also, the only way we could speed up psychology is unethical. it would be horrible to breed humans for psychological studies. a lot of important things we know are from people who have by accident damaged parts of their brains.

however, there have been some amazing breakthroughs recently in psychology. one project i am excited to see what happens with--we are taking a human brain and slicing it up into microscopic slivers and mapping it out. it will take years to finish and might not be useful at all...but it could!!!

psychology isn't pseudoscience but it IS much harder to test and more prone to bias errors than any other field. i mean, psychology is experience itself. that includes all of philosophy and everything else in it. considering how many religions and philosophies there are, establishing a good grasp on psychology is damned hard.


--------------------
LSD FTW:grin:

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Offlinejackdaniels
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Poid]
    #14190685 - 03/27/11 05:50 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

btw, Poid, i like your signature pictures. they remind me of everything i like to look at when i'm on LSD. kittens FTW lol!

the first time i tripped, i was sitting in my room in my parents house all night. i came back to my youtube account the next day and i favorited about twenty kitten videos lol. kittens made me feel good when i was starting to have a difficult trip.


--------------------
LSD FTW:grin:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: jackdaniels]
    #14190703 - 03/27/11 05:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

jackdaniels said:
also, the only way we could speed up psychology is unethical. it would be horrible to breed humans for psychological studies. a lot of important things we know are from people who have by accident damaged parts of their brains.





Quote:

jackdaniels said:
however, there have been some amazing breakthroughs recently in psychology. one project i am excited to see what happens with--we are taking a human brain and slicing it up into microscopic slivers and mapping it out. it will take years to finish and might not be useful at all...but it could!!!


That's pretty interesting, I'd like to see what kind of results will come from that project.


Quote:

jackdaniels said:
psychology isn't pseudoscience but it IS much harder to test and more prone to bias errors than any other field. i mean, psychology is experience itself.


Yeah, it's considered a soft science.


Quote:

jackdaniels said:
that includes all of philosophy and everything else in it.


Science is a type of philosophy.


Quote:

jackdaniels said:
btw, Poid, i like your signature pictures. they remind me of everything i like to look at when i'm on LSD. kittens FTW lol!


Thanks, I took them myself. :smile:


Quote:

jackdaniels said:
the first time i tripped, i was sitting in my room in my parents house all night. i came back to my youtube account the next day and i favorited about twenty kitten videos lol. kittens made me feel good when i was starting to have a difficult trip.


Being with kitties while on MDMA is the bomb-diggity! :superkitty:

:jackdaniels:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Poid]
    #14190931 - 03/27/11 07:31 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14190624#14190624
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
psychology is a pseudo science





Is this true?




Quote:

Poid said:



http://www.wisegeek.com/topics/soft-science.htm#
Quote:

The term “soft science” is sometimes used to refer to branches of scientific inquiry which rely more on conjecture and qualitative analysis than rigorous adherence to the scientific method. “Soft science” is often used as a pejorative, differentiating it from “hard science,” with the implication that only hard science is real science.







Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
so, it's pseudo science

conjecture
[kuhn-jek-cher] noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing.

–noun
1.
the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.
2.
an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.
3.
Obsolete . the interpretation of signs or omens.
–verb (used with object)
4.
to conclude or suppose from grounds or evidence insufficient to ensure reliability.
–verb (used without object)
5.
to form conjectures.



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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14190938 - 03/27/11 07:37 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It relies more on conjecture than rigorous adherence to the scientific method, not completely on conjecture (meaning that it does, at times, rely on a rigorous adherence to the scientific method):

...rely more on conjecture and qualitative analysis than rigorous adherence to the scientific method.


Pseudoscience relies completely on conjecture, so psychology is not a pseudoscience. If you're saying that all social sciences are pseudosciences, then you are saying that anthropology, archaeology, business administration, criminology, economics, geography, linguistics, political science, sociology, international relations, communication, and, in some contexts, history, and law is all pseudoscience.

Neither of those disciplines are considered to be pseudoscientific.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Poid]
    #14190958 - 03/27/11 07:52 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

define the qualitative analysis of this pseudo science you call psychology

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14190967 - 03/27/11 07:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Qualitative research
Quote:

Qualitative research is a method of inquiry employed in many different academic disciplines, traditionally in the social sciences, but also in market research and further contexts. Qualitative researchers aim to gather an in-depth understanding of human behavior and the reasons that govern such behavior. The qualitative method investigates the why and how of decision making, not just what, where, when. Hence, smaller but focused samples are more often needed, rather than large samples.
Qualitative methods produce information only on the particular cases studied, and any more general conclusions are only propositions (informed assertions). Quantitative methods can be used to seek empirical support for such research hypotheses.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Poid]
    #14191000 - 03/27/11 08:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I asked you to define the qualitative analysis, not to link and quote to someone else's definition of qualitative research

I'm not discussing this shit with wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience#Psychology


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14191013 - 03/27/11 08:16 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, I thought you wanted me to provide the definition for qualitative analysis; I Googled. "qualitative analysis" and the Qualitative research article showed up, so that's why I posted it.



Here's what you asked for:

Psychology - Qualitative and quantitative research
Quote:

Research in most areas of psychology is conducted in accord with the standards of the scientific method. Psychological researchers seek the emergence of theoretically interesting categories and hypotheses from data, using qualitative or quantitative methods (or both).
Qualitative psychological research methods include interviews, first-hand observation, and participant observation. Qualitative researchers sometimes aim to enrich interpretations or critiques of symbols, subjective experiences, or social structures. Similar hermeneutic and critical aims have also been served by "quantitative methods," as in Erich Fromm's study of Nazi voting or Stanley Milgram's studies of obedience to authority.
Quantitative psychological research lends itself to the statistical testing of hypotheses. Quantitatively oriented research designs include the experiment, quasi-experiment, cross-sectional study, case-control study, and longitudinal study. The measurement and operationalization of important constructs is an essential part of these research designs. Statistical methods include the Pearson product–moment correlation coefficient, the analysis of variance, multiple linear regression, logistic regression, structural equation modeling, and hierarchical linear modeling.



Yup, totally not a science, Pris. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (03/27/11 08:30 AM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Poid]
    #14191077 - 03/27/11 08:37 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

thats' not what I asked for, you seem to rely on wikipedia and google as
opposed to what you have learned. How can you possibly claim that
psychology isnt a pseudo science when it's foundation cannot be
quantifiably measured. there's no means of control or reproduction

Psychological studies have a number of variables which cannot be controlled,
making it impossible to analyze the data from such experiments, or to ask
other researchers to repeat the experiment. This branch of the 'sciences'
utilizes conjecture and a more open ended discussion, rather than sticking to
clearly defined boundaries, facts, and topics, and conjectures in 'soft
science' may be unprovable with experiments and other research.

Thus we have a pseudoscience that allows for these doctards to make any claim
and provide no proof or substantiating evidence and nothing that allows
others to challenge the findings as erroneous which reduces this to no more
than classic subjectivity


maybe you should actually read the crap you're posting

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14191134 - 03/27/11 08:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
thats' not what I asked for, you seem to rely on wikipedia and google as
opposed to what you have learned.


Huh? I'm providing a source for my position, that's what's expected in this forum.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
How can you possibly claim that
psychology isnt a pseudo science when it's foundation cannot be
quantifiably measured. there's no means of control or reproduction


What do you mean by its "foundation"? Did you even read this:

Quote:

Research in most areas of psychology is conducted in accord with the standards of the scientific method.

Quantitative psychological research lends itself to the statistical testing of hypotheses. Quantitatively oriented research designs include the experiment, quasi-experiment, cross-sectional study, case-control study, and longitudinal study. The measurement and operationalization of important constructs is an essential part of these research designs. Statistical methods include the Pearson product–moment correlation coefficient, the analysis of variance, multiple linear regression, logistic regression, structural equation modeling, and hierarchical linear modeling.




Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Psychological studies have a number of variables which cannot be controlled,
making it impossible to analyze the data from such experiments, or to ask
other researchers to repeat the experiment.


Can you give me an example, or am I just to take your word? 


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
This branch of the 'sciences' utilizes conjecture...


You consider what they utilize to be conjecture, and others consider it to be decent evidence; who should I believe, and why?


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...and a more open ended discussion, rather than sticking to
clearly defined boundaries, facts, and topics...


You're saying that there are no clearly defined boundaries, facts, or topics in psychology? I don't really know what to make of that, there seems to be plenty of clearly defined boundaries, facts, and topics within the discipline of psychology.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...and conjectures in 'soft science' may be unprovable with experiments and other research.


Key word 'may'.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Thus we have a pseudoscience that allows for these doctards to make any claim
and provide no proof or substantiating evidence...


What? Why don't you consider their evidence as evidence? Can you provide an example? They obviously provide evidence to back up their theories, why you have a problem with the nature of that evidence is beyond me.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...and nothing that allows others to challenge the findings as erroneous which reduces this to no more
than classic subjectivity


Many theories in psychology have been challenged and replaced--you are incorrect.


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
maybe you should actually read the crap you're posting


Not sure why you're telling me this, as nothing in anything I posted is in agreement with what you're saying.




Psychology is the science of mind and behavior; I'm providing sources for my claims, and so far you have provided nothing but your fringe opinion on the nature of the evidence that is used to support theories in the discipline of psychology.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (03/27/11 09:03 AM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Poid]
    #14191187 - 03/27/11 09:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
thats' not what I asked for, you seem to rely on wikipedia and google as
opposed to what you have learned.


Huh? I'm providing a source for my position, that's what's expected in this forum.




oh, so all we have to do is provide snippets and links

this should be a really stupid discussion then




Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Psychological studies have a number of variables which cannot be controlled,
making it impossible to analyze the data from such experiments, or to ask
other researchers to repeat the experiment.


Can you give me an example, or am I just to take your word? 




can you give me an example as to where I'm wrong, as this subject came
from your link based on alcoholism being hereditary with only 30% of the
subjects being from families with an alcoholic surely yhat would be a
great place to start... isnt debate all about refutation of what's
presented? please feel free to refute my claims


Quote:

You consider what they utilize to be conjecture, and others consider it to be decent evidence; who should I believe, and why?




are you saying that conjecture is evidence?

Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...and a more open ended discussion, rather than sticking to
clearly defined boundaries, facts, and topics...


You're saying that there are no clearly defined boundaries, facts, or topics in psychology? I don't really know what to make of that, there seems to be plenty of clearly defined boundaries, facts, and topics within the discipline of psychology.




please, show these boundaries, dont just make the claim


Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...and conjectures in 'soft science' may be unprovable with experiments and other research.


Key word 'may'.




again, show some of that wonderful wikipedia evidence to refute my claim


Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Thus we have a pseudoscience that allows for these doctards to make any claim
and provide no proof or substantiating evidence...


What? Why don't you consider their evidence as evidence? Can you provide an example? They obviously provide evidence to back up their theories, why you have a problem with the nature of that evidence is beyond me.





what evidence, statistical studies that show 70% of alcoholics come from
families that had no history of alcoholism in a claim that alcoholism is
hereditary?


Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...and nothing that allows others to challenge the findings as erroneous which reduces this to no more
than classic subjectivity


Many theories in psychology have been challenged and replaced--you are incorrect.




I hear read the words but see no evidence



Quote:

Psychology is the science of mind and behavior; I'm providing sources for my claims, and so far you have provided nothing but your fringe opinion on the nature of the evidence that is used to support theories in the discipline of psychology.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience
Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but which does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status.
he term pseudoscience is often considered inherently pejorative, because it suggests that something is being inaccurately or even deceptively portrayed as science.[4] Accordingly, those labeled as practicing or advocating pseudoscience normally dispute the characterization.

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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14191305 - 03/27/11 09:48 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

which reduces this to no more
than classic subjectivity



Quote:

cannot be reliably tested





Those are really the key in it being a pseudoscience.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14191324 - 03/27/11 09:56 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I only came across one graduate student doing a qualitative study in my University experience. It's pretty ambitious for someone to try and present qualitative data rather than quantitative. And it has it's own set of guidelines and undergoes a pretty intense review process. It relies in part on a tenet of science, consensus. There has to be an agreement by the experts in the field of what is actually being looked at. And that typically depends on quantitative evidence to back up any assertion.

It certainly isn't a hard science but such analysis isn't puled out of thin air either. And it's extremely common for qualitative studies to have a variety of unexpected findings. This is useful because it helps inform future quantitative studies. Qualitative studies are usually a way to branch out in a new area and gain an informational foothold that will inform further study. They are not the end of the line and are not intended to be hard science. Yet they often turn into very solid findings as experimentation continues, giving credit to the process.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Kickle]
    #14191344 - 03/27/11 10:03 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I only came across one graduate student doing a qualitative study in my University experience. It's pretty ambitious for someone to try and present qualitative data rather than quantitative. And it has it's own set of guidelines and undergoes a pretty intense review process.





What are you refering too?  I would imagine qualitative answers to be easier to arrive at in many circumstances.  Does their exist a difference between the expiremental group and the control group? If so, then you've got your answer.  What's difficult about that?



As for psychology, I would agree that as practiced clinically its a bunch of bullshit in many cases without much solid evidence.

Psychology isn't per se pseudoscience, but the manner in which it is employed is often more art than science.  The reasons for this may be many, some of which discussed herein, but it doesn't really matter.

Personally I was shocked to discover how much bullshit psychology is clinically in many cases.


Sociology, in my opinion, is the real stinker:  all the bad parts of psychology plus the nefarious influence of ready-made political consequences to be argued from whatever result makes it a bunch of crap.  Generally the studies they do are pretty poorly applicable to real world applications they are used for.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Kickle]
    #14191345 - 03/27/11 10:03 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
There has to be an agreement by the experts in the field of what is actually being looked at.




yes... the confirmation bias, one of the earmarks of pseudo science

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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14191362 - 03/27/11 10:11 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, "agreement by experts in the field" doesn't matter.  Things are proven, not, or unsure as a function of the evidence.  The agreement of the experts in the field may be useful for speculation and reasoning, but it has nothing to do with what the science actually shows.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: johnm214]
    #14191370 - 03/27/11 10:13 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I would imagine qualitative answers to be easier to arrive at in many circumstances.

Setting up a qualitative analysis is a real bear from what I gather. You have to be able to show why you are choosing the qualities you've set upon for analysis. So either by being very political, or much more likely for a graduate student, by being very very thorough in the background research. IMO it's a bold undertaking to think you have enough knowledge and understanding of so much research to be able to analyze the underlying concepts as a whole in a sample. And there will be resistance from other experts that will have to be overcome. And that doesn't happen through emotional appeals. :shrug:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Psychology is a pseudoscience [Re: johnm214]
    #14191432 - 03/27/11 10:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Yeah, "agreement by experts in the field" doesn't matter.





Doesn't matter for what? The goal of qualitative analysis is not to prove something.

"Qualitative methods produce information only on the particular cases studied, and any more general conclusions are only propositions (informed assertions). Quantitative methods can be used to seek empirical support for such research hypotheses."

The agreement of experts, at least for a graduate student, is aimed at cutting down wasted time and resources. Anyone can do qualitative research, but the goal is to make it worthwhile and not a waste of time. If many experts agree that the research is on the right track with its concepts, then it is less likely that it will be fruitless long term.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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