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Offlineroboto212
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Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature
    #14189071 - 03/26/11 09:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Completed what needs completing, have gotten done what needs getting done. Nothing left to do, no where to go, just Be.

This is where im at in my vipassana practice, having realized that there is no one there that was suffering in the first place, the only thing left to do now is to surrender.

I wanted to start a discussion on Primordial Awareness, that Always Already in Everything that just IS. Some call is christ consciousness, some call is Buddha Nature, I like to call it Rigpa, emptiness, or primordial awareness. My online vipassana teacher Kenneth Folk calls it 3rd Gear on his 3 Gear Transmission system to enlightenment.

This is what Krishnamurti and Eckhart Tolle consider the Direct Path, basically you are already enlightened, just stop trying to be enlightened and surrender to Now, to ISness.

I always knew that was true, but until I took up vipassana meditation and went through the systematic states and stages of mind, and systematically deconstructed all layers, levels and strata of mind that makes up this "I", did I finally reach the end and realize that I was already there all along, I just had to relax :smile:.

So my practice lately has been what we call Direct Mode over at Kennethfolkdharma. Basically opening up to this moment fully, and feeling out any tensions or kinks in the body or mind. As I continue with this openness, pleasantness, expansion, light continues to grow and deepen. Before I know it there is a strong sense of peace, the center point for this "I" is hardly there, and if it is its very easily recognized as not me, and doesnt create any suffering. There is really nothing left after except happiness itself.

Anyways I wanted to hear about peoples meditation practices if they have a "surrendering" meditation that they practice, or any other Direct Path type of meditation.

Peace and Love! May you BE Happy Now!


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ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: roboto212]
    #14189195 - 03/26/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I practice being empty by not resisting what I feel. If I'm driven to a practice that makes me feel good, there is a part of me that desires that release from suffering. And whatever that part is, it isn't nothing :shrug:


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InvisibleJohnnyZampano
Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 325
Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: roboto212]
    #14189506 - 03/26/11 10:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Your opening line reminded me of something from a book I am reading for a Four Noble Truths Class but I can't seem to find it. But something else in the book that struck me was:

'Mere suffering exists, but no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer is found.'


Sometimes when out in the mountains, usually when looking around from a summit I will slip into what may be called DM. Just simple awareness, no self, no thing, just what is. Once in a while in my meditation I will reach a state where I stop my noting and just be aware of all the sensations that are arising and passing, sometimes it feels like they are floating in space and I can't really feel my body - although I feel this is more second gear.

Would you recommend DM before SE? At the moment I am doing mostly noting in my sitting meditation, and sporadically throughout the day. I am starting to feel I am close to being close to SE :smile: All I have to do is take the time and note it out. Have a 10 day retreat coming up in a few weeks, looking forward to what it brings. At the same time I realize none of it really matters, this path that path, just being here and being aware, dis-embedding and seeing though the illusion is where it's at.


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Offlineroboto212
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: JohnnyZampano]
    #14192514 - 03/27/11 02:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think anyone can do DM or 3rd Gear or Surrender. It is so simple that many have been in this "enlightened state" and didnt even realize it. I will say that DM is way easier the higher up you go on the Theravada 4 Path Model of Enlightenment :smile:. I didnt get a clear 3rd Gear, non dual "experience/non experience" until I saw through the whole thing and untangled the whole Vipassana knot that was keeping me binded to this center point (which is still there, still an ego, but its at the point where I either believe the ego, or choose to surrender and not believe the ego).

Best advice I got along the whole Vipassana thing :smile: : See all phenomena, all nama and rupa, mind/body, all sensations coming through the 6 sense doors with Equanimity... even if you dont think you are in the "Equanimity" nana in the Insight cycle.

Everything is just happening, the Universe just Is... Stop trying and just relax :smile:

Om Mani Padme Hum


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ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ


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Offlineroboto212
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: roboto212]
    #14192578 - 03/27/11 02:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

oh and congratulations on being close to Stream Entry :smile:, there is pretty much no getting off the ride after that point. May your 10 day retreat be full of emptiness ;0, Metta!


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ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ


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InvisibleJohnnyZampano
Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 325
Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: roboto212]
    #14192699 - 03/27/11 02:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think this is the passage from "What the Buddha Taught" that I really enjoyed:

"He who has realized the Truth, Nirvana, is the happiest being in the world. He is free from all 'complexes' and obsessions, the worries and troubles that torment others. his mental health is perfect. He does not repent the past, nor does he brood over the future. He lives fully in the present. Therefore he appreciates and enjoys things in the purest sense without self-projections. He is joyful, exultant, enjoying the pure life, his faculties pleased, free form anxiety, serene and peaceful. As he is free from selfish desire, hatred, ignorance, conceit, pride, and all such 'defilement's', he is pure and gentle, full of universal love, compassion, kindness, sympathy, understand and tolerance. His service to others is of the purest, for he has no thought of self. he gains nothing, accumulates noting, not even anything spiritual, because he is free from the illusion of Self, and the 'thirst' for becoming."


The deeper I get the less I want anything else. I like your advice on just being. It all sounds so simple, and I know it is, but the distractions are innumerable and so seducing. Had a session with Kenneth a few days ago where he said SE was a definite possibility soon. I have all the time in the day to sit, and get about 4 hours in though the day.

It's always inspiring to hear from people who have progressed and been though all this. Planning on doing a few days of solo retreat in the woods if the weather warms up before my retreat.

Anyhoo, Metta :laugh:


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Offlineroboto212
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: roboto212]
    #14192716 - 03/27/11 02:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I would also say that the Direct Path, Rigpa, or Primordial Awareness is the end goal of any meditation practice, as there is no suffering. For me, Vipassana made the mind less sticky, like it doesnt catch on anything anymore, everything is seen very clearly for what it is. So its like, we all have Buddha Nature, its there all the time, always has been, always will be. The goal is to be happy, but to have the skillfulness to surrender to this at the drop of a hat, and be in it all the time, this is where vipassana comes in. It unbinds the mind.

Ex: I stubbed my toe the other day. It hurt! But a split second after stubbing it there was an instant recognition that this pain which was quite painful (!), did not belong to anyone... and it never did. After recognizing this I immediately continued surrendering, as this moment is the only moment we have to be happy in.

Im curious if anyone has read into the Actual Freedom Technique, which is remarkably similar to Direct Mode, but its like its adjacent to it. Direct Mode is about relaxing and just being the Happiness, Actual Freedom is about inquiring into "how am I feeling in this moment of being alive" and illuminating the attention wave that is making you believe you are this "I". As you illuminate more and more of it, pleasantness, peace and happiness start to spring out.


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ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ


Edited by roboto212 (03/27/11 02:59 PM)


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OfflineR2-D2
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: roboto212]
    #14193086 - 03/27/11 04:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Do you still have interest in future psychedelic use?

edit: and I really don't think there is any actual practical difference between AF and misc xyz nondual practice, it seems like they just have subtle differences in logical conceptual structure (not completely sure of how to word what I'm saying)
which results in 'external' differences :crazy2:


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Edited by R2-D2 (03/27/11 04:13 PM)


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Offlineroboto212
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: R2-D2]
    #14193560 - 03/27/11 05:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I still do psychedelics, but only as a hobby :smile:.

I go out and pick Cyanescen Copelandia here in Hawaii.

I live in the Puna area of the Big Island of Hawaii and alot of my friends and I are largely into the ayahuasca ceremonies, including the Faitio's which is where we make the medicine. I still do ayahuasca ceremonies on occasion. I will say that my first Arising and Passing event in the Vipassana meditation was while I was on ayahuasca, and that ayahuasca is initially what got the Vipassana game rolling, but I was meditating for atleast 10 months before that, predominantly concentration or samatha meditation. I believe ayahuasca is one of the most useful tools for vipassana, a perfect compliment to an already established sober daily meditation.

I still smoke cannabis on rare occasions. I used to be a habitual smoker a year and half ago, but am way higher without it now.


I personally think psychedelics are useful in the realm of Vipassana meditation, and had my 2nd Path Fruition and 3rd Path Fruition (referencing Theravada 4 Path model of Enlightenment) while on a Cacti extract and on ayahuasca, respectively. I will say that they can get in the way and prevent progress as well, it all depends on how you use them. Nothing replaces the (quoting kenneth here) "raw naked power of the human mind" when it comes to awakening and ending suffering.
If I continued to play with psychedelics in the future, it would most likely be ayahuasca, DMT just seems to be where its at.


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ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ


Edited by roboto212 (03/27/11 05:50 PM)


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InvisibleJohnnyZampano
Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 325
Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: roboto212]
    #14193823 - 03/27/11 06:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That's good to hear. I think the ayahuasca works in Puna were one of the things that got me going down the path I am on now. Recently I've been considering a solo San Pedro trip in the mountains, but wanted to get Stream Entry first, and I had some reservations about how it would work with my practice.

Do you have any advice for combining vipassana and aya / cacti?


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Offlineroboto212
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: JohnnyZampano]
    #14194294 - 03/27/11 08:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I have had really good results with combining Metta Bhavana with ayahuasca and or cacti. I have only done cacti twice and during my second experience had 2nd Path fruition (given this is after I had navigated into Equanimity of that Vipassana cycle while sober).

There are many books and suttas on Metta on the web, but I would start with loving myself first. May I be happy, May I be free from suffering.

The flow of Loving Energy extends to yourself first, this will make the mind calm, maleable and easier to extend metta to others. Extend metta to those you love, family, friends. Extend metta to those you are in a neutral relation with. Finally extend it to those that you are in conflict with. Establishing strong Metta will make your mind very concentrated and calm and naturally peaceful (even if you are in the icky dark night).

Naturally, you should use this concentrated and calm mind and switch from Metta/Samatha to Vipassana. Take the object of warmth, loving energy radiating from your heart center as object and begin deconstructing all nama and rupa :smile:.

When I got 2nd Path fruition I was actually doing cacti extract with my mom. It was her first psychedelic experience ever, and I was making sure her trip was the most special and beneficial. We were both in the trip after 2 hours and she was going through some uncomfortableness. I put on some mantras on the ipod and, seeing my mom in unpleasantness, naturally wanted her happiness. Metta and compassion naturally arose and extended towards my mom during her trip. This made my mind remarkably peaceful and calm. As my mom broke through the uncomfortableness and got into a really positive trip, I decided to sit and note (using Mahasi Sayadaw style noting) all the sensations I was experiencing. I wasnt sitting for more than 5 minutes in this peace that I experienced a cessation.

The rest of our trips was extremely enjoyable :smile:.

So, if I had to suggest I would say you already know how to use psychs to awaken :smile:. They temporarily put you into "enlightened" headspace. Just like the Buddha prescribed, use Metta/Compassion to establish Samatha, Deepen Samatha to create an extremely one pointed and peaceful mind, and switch over to Vipassana to disembed.


disclaimer: psychs tend to amplify everything that you are experiencing...so if you are going through dark night stuff it could potentially amplify this... the plus side to this is it allows to really clearly see those uncomfortable sensations in order to develop equanimity towards.


--------------------
ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ


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InvisibleJohnnyZampano
Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 325
Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: roboto212]
    #14194399 - 03/27/11 08:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Awesome! Thank you :smile:

I've been so into noting this past week I forgot Metta. I really enjoy doing guided Metta meditations (I tend to go though the process to quickly on my own) and enjoy the loving sensations it brings up. I can't even imagine doing Metta while in that head space, but I am look forward to experiencing it :laugh:

Any doubts I had are gone, and now I am really excited to try this out in a month or two. I miss the connection I felt from the Daime works, and look forward to spreading the love again :smile:


Edited by JohnnyZampano (03/27/11 08:43 PM)


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OfflineSimulacra541
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: JohnnyZampano]
    #14195469 - 03/27/11 11:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Congrats! I'm very excited for you!

This happened to me last June, I actually wrote something about it on KFD, but I spent a day reading the New Testament, which I've found to mostly be a map towards 3rd gear.

I ended up just watching this sense inside me that wanted to do something, some sort of method or process, because if "I" could do a method then "I" could be proud for accomplishing it. When I read about God having done it already for me, it made me upset and there was incredible aversion to that. So I sat and watched this feeling, until I followed Ramana's advice and asked "Who is it that wants to know God?"
How can the ego desire its own destruction?

Shortly after this there was a complete spontaneous experience of Holy Spirit, or Buddha Nature in which I realized it had always been this way I had just been refusing to surrender to it. I lost interest in smoking, drinking, and drug use then, though I occasionally smoke weed and drink beer. 

9 months after that and I'm still experiencing the results, there's less clinging, less desire to defend the sense of self, more understanding, equanimity towards feelings and problems.



I've been practicing vipassana, because the feeling of "I don't have it" came back but I feel like I'm at a wall in meditation. When I started in January I instantly felt the disembedding happen when I objectified thoughts and mind states. Now I just can't figure out what I'm stuck in.

lol maybe I should examine that, the desire to find something to note? 

I find self inquiry to be more helpful though, but Kenneth has the right idea with the 3 gears. He's an amazing teacher.


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OfflineEnvix
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: Simulacra541] * 1
    #14197089 - 03/28/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

As I continue with this openness, pleasantness, expansion, light continues to grow and deepen. Before I know it there is a strong sense of peace, the center point for this "I" is hardly there, and if it is its very easily recognized as not me, and doesnt create any suffering. There is really nothing left after except happiness itself.




for every definition you add onto this purest of experience.. the further you stray from it

definitions create structures in your mind which your beingness needs to jump over


--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


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Offlineroboto212
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: Envix]
    #14197944 - 03/28/11 01:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Envix said:
Quote:

As I continue with this openness, pleasantness, expansion, light continues to grow and deepen. Before I know it there is a strong sense of peace, the center point for this "I" is hardly there, and if it is its very easily recognized as not me, and doesnt create any suffering. There is really nothing left after except happiness itself.




for every definition you add onto this purest of experience.. the further you stray from it

definitions create structures in your mind which your beingness needs to jump over





I agree with this perfectly! I didnt quite get the whole surrender/Buddha Nature until getting the vipassana thing done and actually seeing that there is no one. It happened rather suddenly one day that I recognized this Rigpa, and am finding that the only thing left to do is to relax, as we could be nothing but this Awareness. The ego still makes up stories and sometimes "I" believe them and there appears suffering, but as soon as I remember to relax and remind myself there is no one, this is all just happening, I begin to experience a growing peace.

For me its not all at once... I dont immediately fall into Rigpa, there seems to be layers or levels. Surrender begins to happen, and its basically relaxing around all the tensions, kinks, anxieties in the body. There are many layers to this "I" that must relax, and continuing to relax tears this sense of "I" asunder, completely obliterates it and all that is left is peace and happiness.


--------------------
ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ


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Offlineroboto212
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: Simulacra541]
    #14197978 - 03/28/11 01:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


I've been practicing vipassana, because the feeling of "I don't have it" came back but I feel like I'm at a wall in meditation. When I started in January I instantly felt the disembedding happen when I objectified thoughts and mind states. Now I just can't figure out what I'm stuck in.

lol maybe I should examine that, the desire to find something to note? 

I find self inquiry to be more helpful though, but Kenneth has the right idea with the 3 gears. He's an amazing teacher.





If there isnt any predominant sensation that is on the front stage, you can always note "searching" or "wondering" or have a fixed awareness on the breath until another sensation makes itself known. Everything that is experienced can be looked at with vipassana, even those subtle sensations of consciousness itself (ie, the Witness, Ramana Maharshi's "Who Am I", that "I AM" presence)

One of the greatest tricks i learned from Kenneth's 3 Gear system is asking the final question "Who is Watching the Witness?" or "Who knows this Consciousness?" :smile:, thats the ticket


--------------------
ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ


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OfflineEnvix
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: roboto212]
    #14198037 - 03/28/11 01:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie

rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b


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OfflineGoose
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: Envix]
    #14198815 - 03/28/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i think your on to something with. the levels of surrender and relaxation.


--------------------
"i will study and prepare myself so that when my opportunity comes i will be ready" Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineSimulacra541
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: roboto212]
    #14198879 - 03/28/11 05:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

roboto212 said:
Quote:


I've been practicing vipassana, because the feeling of "I don't have it" came back but I feel like I'm at a wall in meditation. When I started in January I instantly felt the disembedding happen when I objectified thoughts and mind states. Now I just can't figure out what I'm stuck in.

lol maybe I should examine that, the desire to find something to note? 

I find self inquiry to be more helpful though, but Kenneth has the right idea with the 3 gears. He's an amazing teacher.





If there isnt any predominant sensation that is on the front stage, you can always note "searching" or "wondering" or have a fixed awareness on the breath until another sensation makes itself known. Everything that is experienced can be looked at with vipassana, even those subtle sensations of consciousness itself (ie, the Witness, Ramana Maharshi's "Who Am I", that "I AM" presence)

One of the greatest tricks i learned from Kenneth's 3 Gear system is asking the final question "Who is Watching the Witness?" or "Who knows this Consciousness?" :smile:, thats the ticket





Ok, I'll work with the "Who is watching the witness" question, I actually never really understood that one. "Who am I?" makes me see how what I am is prior to whatever is being experienced. So is that the Witness? Then how would I even inquire into who witnesses the witness? Just like "Who am I?" Nothing that arises can be it.

"Who am I?" generally leaves me where thoughts, emotions, sounds, sights, are just spontaneously arising and of equal importance. The sound of foot steps feels on equal level with the thoughts of what I need to do later in the day. So there isn't really a hierarchy anymore or at least it feels that way, but there's still something stuck somewhere.


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Offlineroboto212
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Re: Primordial Awareness/Buddha Nature [Re: Simulacra541]
    #14199360 - 03/28/11 06:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Simulacra541 said:
Quote:

roboto212 said:
Quote:


I've been practicing vipassana, because the feeling of "I don't have it" came back but I feel like I'm at a wall in meditation. When I started in January I instantly felt the disembedding happen when I objectified thoughts and mind states. Now I just can't figure out what I'm stuck in.

lol maybe I should examine that, the desire to find something to note? 

I find self inquiry to be more helpful though, but Kenneth has the right idea with the 3 gears. He's an amazing teacher.





If there isnt any predominant sensation that is on the front stage, you can always note "searching" or "wondering" or have a fixed awareness on the breath until another sensation makes itself known. Everything that is experienced can be looked at with vipassana, even those subtle sensations of consciousness itself (ie, the Witness, Ramana Maharshi's "Who Am I", that "I AM" presence)

One of the greatest tricks i learned from Kenneth's 3 Gear system is asking the final question "Who is Watching the Witness?" or "Who knows this Consciousness?" :smile:, thats the ticket





Ok, I'll work with the "Who is watching the witness" question, I actually never really understood that one. "Who am I?" makes me see how what I am is prior to whatever is being experienced. So is that the Witness? Then how would I even inquire into who witnesses the witness? Just like "Who am I?" Nothing that arises can be it.

"Who am I?" generally leaves me where thoughts, emotions, sounds, sights, are just spontaneously arising and of equal importance. The sound of foot steps feels on equal level with the thoughts of what I need to do later in the day. So there isn't really a hierarchy anymore or at least it feels that way, but there's still something stuck somewhere.





The "Who Am I" inquiry is meant to bring you to the Witness. In the Theravada tradition and in Vipassana we use the 6th Samatha Jhana of Infinite Consciousness to see what the witness actually is. When inquiring into "Who am I?" it is directly showing you what you are not, everything that is arising is not I. So you keep doing this till eventually you get to the point where all that is left is this "I,I" or "I AM!" presence. The Witness is all subject, not an object... you arent looking at an object, you are turning the subject around on itself.

You can absorb your mind into the witness, and it helps to deconstruct your sense of "I". You do this enough and eventually, like Ramana Maharshi stated, the stick that is stirring the fire eventually gets consumd by the fire. Eventually there is a natural "Who is aware of this Witness?" and you find yourself in 3rd Gear, in the non dual, where subject and object are one and the same.

absorb into the witness long enough and there is nothing left to hide :smile:


--------------------
ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ


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