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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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 Faith in What? 
#1415986 - 03/28/03 02:51 PM (21 years, 24 days ago) |
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I have asked these questions in several forms over the years here and have never received any direct answers from those chiding me for my lack of faith.
Really try to stay with me here and no go too far afield.
As there are unlimited unseen and unknown things of which to have faith in; then how can I know a priori which one to have faith in?
If I have faith in the "wrong" or a nonexistent thing, will it still bring me benefit? If so, how?
Why should I have faith in something that I cannot sense, know, measure, or validate?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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 Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
#1416153 - 03/28/03 07:34 PM (21 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
Why should I have faith in something that I cannot sense, know, measure, or validate?
Peace of mind. Once you accept something as an article of faith, trying to answer the 'why' becomes less troubling. The easy answers that faith provides are preferred to doubt and uncertainty by those who accept them.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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 shaggy101
Registered: 08/16/00
Posts: 1,816
Loc: ..still waiting for godot
Last seen: 11 years, 29 days
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
#1416177 - 03/28/03 08:02 PM (21 years, 24 days ago) |
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I have faith in what I believe.
I only truly believe what I know.
All I know is that I know.
obscure enough for ya 
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Teragon
Noddy
Registered: 02/20/01
Posts: 36,253
Loc: Lost in the Patterns
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 Re: Faith in What? [Re: shaggy101]
#1416302 - 03/28/03 10:40 PM (21 years, 24 days ago) |
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Shaggy has it right. Have faith in what you think/feel. Works for me. 
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need that cash to feed them jones.
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shaggy101
Registered: 08/16/00
Posts: 1,816
Loc: ..still waiting for godot
Last seen: 11 years, 29 days
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
#1416353 - 03/28/03 11:49 PM (21 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
I have asked these questions in several forms over the years here and have never received any direct answers from those chiding me for my lack of faith.
On the contrary, I myself am glad that you do not accept others answers to your own questions.
Quote:
Really try to stay with me here and no go too far afield.
As there are unlimited unseen and unknown things of which to have faith in; then how can I know a priori which one to have faith in?
I think the questin -do you have have faith?- needs not have any thing to follow.
What I mean is why put others expressions, or the common consciousnes believe on your own.
you can only have faith if you really believe what it is you have faith in therefore you know it, without understanding- which is the nature of faith.
as you understand more and more, if the data obviously contradicts your belief and is undenialbly true, then you indeed did not know, and your faith was misplaced.
Quote:
If I have faith in the "wrong" or a nonexistent thing, will it still bring me benefit? If so, how?
I think if you know then it will not be wrong. For example the only thing I believe in is what I know, I will not label it, but that is my faith.
If I dared put any name on it, it would be god. But as the word god is only a form to communicate the force meant to express, I cant acurately say that word expresses what I believe.
Yet it constantly drives me in my life, and has never been proved wrong on any level.
Now if this force is not the "right" force then the flaw would be in my interpretation of the force(meaning I must not have truely had faith in it), or the flaw is in my creation, I simply am not capable of knowing truth by nature. A opinion I find to be nearly impossible as nothing I have seen points that direction.
Quote:
Why should I have faith in something that I cannot sense, know, measure, or validate?
You must explain your definition of those four words to me before I can give more of an answer.
For know all I can say is have you doubted yourself?
Have you looked within for the answer, with your heart only open to the truth? Did you doubt it?
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
#1416596 - 03/29/03 07:16 AM (21 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
If I have faith in the "wrong" or a nonexistent thing, will it still bring me benefit? If so, how?
Well, it seems pretty simple that if you put your faith in something it is because it brings you a certain amount of peace. I guess that would be the benefit.
If you are wrong in your belief the only real consequences would be if some other was right and you had to burn in hell for eternity for guessing wrong. 
Quote:
Why should I have faith in something that I cannot sense, know, measure, or validate?
Yeah, why should you? If you are at peace without faith, fuck it. I personally believe there is a purpose to life. I am honestly searching for understanding. But I am having a hard time because I don't really know how to conduct this search. I tried asking questions. Now I feel there are no answers.And Like you,and for similiar reasons, I cannot accept any of the dogma. But I do have faith in a purpose. Life is trying to accomplish something.
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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gnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 6 months, 8 days
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
#1416619 - 03/29/03 07:49 AM (21 years, 23 days ago) |
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alan watts:
give us this day our daily faith, but deliver us from our beliefs
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can you not "sense" spirit?
what perception of "spirit" implies may be another set of questions, yes/no ?
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ymmv...
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old enough to know better
not old enough to care
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Earth_Droid
Stranger
Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
#1416802 - 03/29/03 11:50 AM (21 years, 23 days ago) |
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Have faith in the divine process.
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Revelation
ॐ
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
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No doubt the universe is unfolding as it should...
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Isn't that statement rather useless as it implies (and ASSumes) that there is an intention behind the universe?
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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dee_N_ae
\/\/¡†¢h |-|øµ§³ ¢å†
Registered: 08/16/02
Posts: 2,473
Loc: The Shadow of Neptune
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Sclorch]
#1416866 - 03/29/03 01:08 PM (21 years, 23 days ago) |
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IME no, it doesn't imply that.
To me it means that everything that is happening is not "wrong" or the opposite of what "should" be happening, as many people like to think.
It is how we've collectively chosen to go about living.
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Anonymous
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
#1418281 - 03/30/03 12:38 PM (21 years, 22 days ago) |
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I'll try to help you out here. This is a one time offer. I do not cast my pearls before swine. A swine is someone who mocks precious truths that they cannot understand. This is not a personal insult but a classification of non-believer.
Here goes:
As there are unlimited unseen and unknown things of which to have faith in; then how can I know a priori which one to have faith in?
A very valid question. The answer is that you must have some indication, i.e. empirical, in order to begin to exercise faith. If you are insinuating that one could know anything a priori you are amiss already. No knowledge of anything is apriori as understood by Kant.
That is a typical Kantian nonsense assumption.
If I have faith in the "wrong" or a nonexistent thing, will it still bring me benefit? If so, how?
Logically it could bring you benefit in the sense that you may interpret something in those terms but non-existent entities cannot benefit anything. This is because they do not exist. Ipso facto.
Why should I have faith in something that I cannot sense, know, measure, or validate?
There are a variety of reasons for having such faith, such as the inner peace already mentioned. Perhaps you might enjoy blowing up buildings like the World Trade Center and need a comfortable excuse.
Faith always or should always begin in the material world. That is to say that there must be or should be some kind of evidence to initiate it that has substance.
Have you read the 5 proofs for the existence of God? If not, read them. And read them before you poke around on the Internet for their rebuttals. If you poke around for their rebuttals first that evidences that you aren't really a seeker at all, just a whiner.
In the first chapter of Romans in the New Testament the apostle Paul says that the existence of nature offers evidence for the existence of God. This is what I mean when I say that faith has to begin somewhere.
Oh, and please don't take this as an invitation to argue back and forth on this subject. You should know me well enough to know I won't participate in that. Time won't allow it.
Cheers,
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quemo
dontknowitall
Registered: 12/19/02
Posts: 137
Loc: worldcitizen
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: ]
#1418327 - 03/30/03 01:15 PM (21 years, 22 days ago) |
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be it rare ....i love reading you speak mr.mushrooms...thank you, you truly are most inspiring
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: ]
#1418784 - 03/30/03 06:44 PM (21 years, 22 days ago) |
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As there are unlimited unseen and unknown things of which to have faith in; then how can I know a priori which one to have faith in?
A very valid question. The answer is that you must have some indication, i.e. empirical, in order to begin to exercise faith. If you are insinuating that one could know anything a priori you are amiss already. No knowledge of anything is apriori as understood by Kant.
That is a typical Kantian nonsense assumption.
I think that we are talking at odds here. Of course you can't know something before you know something, but one could have enough information to believe that a certain path or choice could possibly lead somewhere; that somewhere being more knowledge, wisdom, peace; etc.
I have never been to Jamaica nor Bermuda and so cannot know the islands, but can gather enough information to make a choice as to my destination. And I know ahead of time that if I go to that island alone, I will find a nice female (even though I do not yet know her) to spend some time with.
Now if someone tells me to have faith in angels, Gaia, Satan, God, Allah, Zeus, The Greys or any other entity, power, force; I have NO WAY of knowing ahead of time if any of these entities exist nor if they have the power to guide me.
My own experiments have had null results. Naturally the believers (though they cannot demonstrate results either) tell me that my approach or sincerity was amiss.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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FreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
#1418793 - 03/30/03 06:52 PM (21 years, 22 days ago) |
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if I go to that island alone, I will find a nice female (even though I do not yet know her) to spend some time with."
Jeez Swami, i wish I had your confidence(or maybe even good looks) 
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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Chanting, visualization and pocketfull of hundred dollar bills is all the magic you need. 
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The proof is in the pudding.
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
#1419165 - 03/31/03 12:14 AM (21 years, 22 days ago) |
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I got thousands in my pocket, what can I expect?
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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Anonymous
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
#1419468 - 03/31/03 07:22 AM (21 years, 21 days ago) |
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I see what you are saying. Yes, I was replying to a meaning that you didn't have in mind when you wrote what you did. I just hate Kant so I had to throw out a little dig at him.
As far as which supernatural or supranatural 'entity' is real is concerned I would think that if such a being exists and more importantly cares about you and the details of your life, then it would be up to that being to give you evidence of its existence. Wouldn't you?
So then, only a few possibilities exist. The Being gave you evidence and you were unable to understand it. There is no Being. There is a Being and it didn't give you any evidence.
If one has an honest heart one has the first requirement for learning the truth about anything. One must never turn away any answer because one finds it repugnant for some reason.
My own experiments have had null results. Naturally the believers (though they cannot demonstrate results either) tell me that my approach or sincerity was amiss.
Don't listen to "believers" as much as you should listen to your own heart. It is probably a much better guide. Since you have had null results so far then you are faced with a choice, either give up the search or keep searching.
Pax eterna
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Swami]
#1419663 - 03/31/03 10:59 AM (21 years, 21 days ago) |
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You know the Universe exists do you not? Are you aware of or can you begin to try and comprehend it's ominous and endless nature?
Have your faith be in the Universe. I mean, after all, you can see it..you can *try* to measure it.. it provides for our lives and so we should be grateful for our existance and continued experiencing of life. How lucky we are.
You shouldn't have faith in anything you don't believe in. Faith is a very personal thing. Have faith in the Earth, or the Sun, or the Universe. These are tangible things in perceptable reality. Start there, and maybe we can work our way out to devas/angels/etc.
Faith in what? Faith in everything.. faith in the unknown. Faith in eternity. Faith in continued existance of consciousness. Faith in the limitless boundaries of reality.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Faith in What? [Re: Shroomism]
#1419829 - 03/31/03 12:28 PM (21 years, 21 days ago) |
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Have your faith be in the Universe.
What exactly does that mean?
Let's look at people who have faith in a loving God vs. those who don't:
Believer Parent A:
Son returns home from Iraqi conflict unharmed. "God protected you because of your prayers and faith." Smothers son with hugs & kisses.
Son returns home from Iraqi conflict in a body bag. "God called you home and you will be in heaven because of your sacrifice." Parent wails uncontrollably at the loss.
Rationalist Parent B:
Son returns home from Iraqi conflict unharmed. "The odds favored you to come home safely." Smothers son with hugs & kisses.
Son returns home from Iraqi conflict in a body bag. "Life is a cruel joke." Parent wails uncontrollably at the loss.
The ONLY difference that I can see is that the internal dialogue is somewhat different. The pain and joy is roughly equal and no external mystical force played a part in the end result of the melodrama WHATSOEVER!
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The proof is in the pudding.
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