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Offlinetwighead
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Rebirtha]
    #14164513 - 03/22/11 01:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Why don't they just chop the country in half and call it good :smirk:


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Offline13.step
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Rebirtha]
    #14164894 - 03/22/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rebirtha said:
Quote:

13.step said:
So what? You seriously think Gaddhafi should be left to his murdering ways? And how do you imagine britain is going to get the oil? Steal it? The people of Lybia will sell it to them, the same people who want Mr. Fuckhead pan-africa dude to get the fuck out and let them go about their democratic ways...

Of course there are a lot of economical and political reasons for this operation but for once it actually saves innocent lives. Is there anybody here that thinks that letting an unstable dictator murder entire cities just because they are not under his direct control should be tolerated? That would be some grade A delirious pseudo-liberal-hippie-bullshit.




Look back at history, we have often gone after dictators only to be caught in civil wars. This is turning into a civil war quickly. The west is Gadaffi loyalists, and the east rebels. It is becoming more and more divided and harder to pick sides. It is also unclear what the motives of the rebels are, and if they would install their own dictator.

About the oil, we have often in the past and now in Iraq, helped in the regime change of governments. It is not enough for the United States to ever just take out a leader and leave the people to create their own democracy. The USA isn't just for freedom of other nations, it consistently helps get presidential leaders elected using large amounts of economic assistance. This isn't true democracy. In turn, the United States puts a leader up who only becomes a dictator later,, just look at Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Iran. They don't want true democracy, they want America democracy of a certain future dictator who will give oil breaks to the US for helping prop up their government.

And on top of all of that, this is illegal without congressional declaration of war.





Still would be better than Gaddhafi, and of course the oil is a major factor in this intervention, even considering that I think it is really a good thing at the moment that the UN got involved. As for the civil war, that would suck some major balls, hope they find a way to not get into one, or to back out of it. It really depends what the sentiment among the population in the west is, if it's just a core group of military/policeman whatever fanatically loyal to the old mummy things will change quickly for the worse for him beyond a certain point...if the majority supports him (which doesn't seem to be the case) then yeah...civil war...it's just a matter of waiting and seeing, would it be bad taste to bet on it? (joking, joking, don't stone me for that one...)


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: 13.step]
    #14165000 - 03/22/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

13.step said:
None taken, it seemed you said they where killing civilians (you kinda did) of course they're going to kill soldiers, but a soldier is fair game, on either side, it was about the civilians, Gaddhafi began indiscriminately bombing Benghazi from the sea, which is a shithead move anyway you turn it.



Without a doubt the allies have killed some civilians by now. One thing that's been confirmed is that the US shot at the Lybian civilians that came to the rescue of the crashed F15 pilot. I understand a handful of them have been taken to a hospital, but last time I checked there were no confirmed deaths (yet). But I agree this is something else from what Ghadaffi's doing, which is unheard of. Especially using civilians as a human shield is bad form taken to the extreme. So alright, Ghadaffi's a huge asswipe, and it's a good thing someone stepped up to the plate and has attempted to protect the civilians (and the rebels). But how now? Where do we go?

Quote:

I'm too really curious what will happen after this, maybe the rebels are strong enough to defeat Gaddhafi-forces on the ground with "international" air-support and then they will be forever grateful to the western powers that helped them and that would mean cheap oil and another ally in the middle-east(-ish). And right now I think I have shit-stains in my toilet that are more valuable than Gaddhafi's diplomatic credit.



If Ghadaffi manages to come out of this on top (which I'm convinced he won't, but we can't be sure at this point), then the shit stains in your toilet should be worth about $22 billion annually. I think for Russia it's a good enough reason to remain, at least in public, critical of the allied actions.

Quote:

Anyway, wouldn't this intervention be considered active realpolitik as opposed to the Russians adopting a passive form of it?



Yes, but topped with a dressing of quasi-genuine concern over human rights. The real underlying reasons fit much more in the realpolitik way of thinking, with oil being an important economic factor, and Lybia's role as a guard of the gateway to Europe for African economic refugees another. The importance of the latter argument should not be underestimated, especially from the viewpoint of Italy and France. And of course, for Sarkozy Ghadaffi is a very convenient bad guy at a very convenient moment, so it's easy to explain why France seemed so eager to get the party going.

Edited by koraks (03/22/11 02:42 PM)

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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: 13.step]
    #14165610 - 03/22/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

13.step said:
...civil war...it's just a matter of waiting and seeing, would it be bad taste to bet on it? (joking, joking, don't stone me for that one...)




That is in really poor taste, and the US shouldn't be betting on it either.

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: fresh313]
    #14166023 - 03/22/11 05:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

13.step said:
Coaster, why the hardon for Gaddhafi? It wasn't his palace that got leveled it was a command center near his compound, the nutcase lives in a tent. If the means to whatever end need that fuckhead removed from power then that is clearly a good thing.



because I know when people are misunderstood and I know that Gaddhaffi isn't all that bad
he spent 2.4 billion just to get off the terrorist list
he clearly wants to be friends
and he calls Obama his son
hes been the leader for 4 decades and barely caused any damage to another country
Bush has caused way more bloodshed in 8 years than Gaddhaffi has in 40
and Gaddhaffi wants to unite all of Africa
somebody who aims to unite isn't that bad, its the isolationists that are bad
he wants to unite through diplomacy, not through tyranny
Quote:

fresh313 said:
Quote:

Coaster said:
Remember Yesterday when Vice Admiral Bill Gortney said, "I can guarantee that Gaddhafi is not on our targeting list"
and now his palace is leveled





Can you provide link to this video. I will reverse it. Thanks Coaster.



watch this entire video its so interesting

he says he cant specify our message we put out there
and he reveals lots of our weaknesses to anti-air missiles and radar


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14166193 - 03/22/11 06:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

2. Go for Iraq 2.0 and put soldiers on the ground. Iraq, Afghanistan, former Yugoslavia; it's going to be one of those messy guerrilla wars again, with the main enemy officially wiped out within a couple of weeks, but his supporter destabilizing the country for years to come.




This is whats going to happen.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14166303 - 03/22/11 06:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:




off topic, but I can see where I live in that picture.:awehigh:


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OfflineTeamAmerica
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14166328 - 03/22/11 06:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The Norwegians just have one single badass plane...:lol:



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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: TeamAmerica]
    #14166918 - 03/22/11 08:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

ya the Orion is pretty cool
but I think the BII's are the superior jets used in operation odyssey dawn
we only have 20 of them and we already used 3 to drop 45 2,000 pound bombs


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14179244 - 03/24/11 10:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)



Downed F-15 due to "malfunction"

"We are taking the next step: We have agreed along with our NATO allies to transition command and control for the no-fly zone over Libya to NATO,"


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14182803 - 03/25/11 05:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Obama delivering a speech tonight to justify his actions


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Invisibletrekie
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14182934 - 03/25/11 06:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

WASHINGTON--On Monday, March 28 at 7:30PM ET, the President will deliver an address at the National Defense University in Washington, DC to update the American people on the situation in Libya, including the actions we've taken with allies and partners to protect the Libyan people from the brutality of Moammar Qaddafi, the transition to NATO command and control, and our policy going forward.
The speech will be pooled for TV and open to correspondents. More details, including press credentialing information, will be released as they become available.
Huffingtonpost


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: trekie]
    #14182938 - 03/25/11 06:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

o man i can't wait
im such a huge history buff
and to be watching history as the present is the trippyest thing of all


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14182994 - 03/25/11 06:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

:blewmeanie:


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14183009 - 03/25/11 06:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:





Arab hipsters?


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: blewmeanie]
    #14183015 - 03/25/11 06:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

ya dude dont you know what libyans look like
everybody dresses all nice these days even in countries in the middle east
get with the times bro


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14183590 - 03/25/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The rebellion was just about to be crushed out gaddafi would have remained in power but he has built up the country and made it prosper during his regime, now the un comes trotting saying there gonna save the day and there actions pretty much poured gasoline onto the brewing civil war and threw a match on it. Fuckin idiots couldn't just mind there own business and let it play out now the people are paying for it being sniped unmercilessly tanks being employed against civilians, the place is soon to be Iraq 2.0. Thought the world would have learned last time

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14190228 - 03/27/11 02:17 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"the truth of the matter is we have trouble coming up with proof of any civilian casualties that we have been responsible for. There were numerous intelligence reports suggesting Moammar Gadhafi's regime was taking bodies of people killed by the pro-government forces and placing them at sites attacked by U.S. planes. We have been extremely careful."









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OfflineHakim0777
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: blewmeanie]
    #14191358 - 03/27/11 10:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

Coaster said:





Arab hipsters?





man... it would suck to get killed by a dude wearing skinny jeans.


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Hakim0777]
    #14191828 - 03/27/11 11:59 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

did you guys no that Bengazi and Tripoli has been fought over by the axis and allies duuring WWII
and america bombed Tripoli in 1986 during Operation El Dorado Canyon
so much history in Libya
apparently its a really strategic point


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