|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
#14178514 - 03/24/11 08:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
Poid said: Don't question him. 
Quote:
OK, got it, I'll never question you ever again.
It's not about questioning me. 
Listen, this is actually a very simple concept.
There is a difference between questioning someone's ideas or assertions because you don't agree with their validity (by all means - proceed), or just flat out asking countless questions which do not further the discussion at all in any critical way whatsoever.
You just ask a shitload of questions without contributing anything.
Yet even this fundamental quality of your posts in this thread you cannot seem to understand.
I just ask questions so I can contribute to my own understanding of what you're trying to say.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
PeterGriffin467
Dirt Grub


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 6,647
Loc: six feet under
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
#14178537 - 03/24/11 08:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Pyschs are fucking fake, they are fun to do and can maybe open your mind a bit for the day you trip possibly a few days after but that shit fades fast. Any profound thoughts you have during a trip seem so significant while in the midst of it but once you return back to normal they are nonsense. I like to trip every so often and loved it as a teenager but I hate this "pyschs would change the world attitude". "Dude if only everyone in the world would eat acid mannnnn the world would be so much better and such a better place" load of horseshit. Flame away
-------------------- "I just need to check inside ya asshole SIR.... Asshole clear!"
|
gerryjarcia
biophiliac



Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 1,889
Loc: the woods
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: Poid]
#14178547 - 03/24/11 08:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Poid said: I didn't get the feeling that there was any mention of infanthood, I thought he was speaking strictly about adults. 
i brought up "infanthood" only because that is where you have to start when talking about socialization. you can't genuinely start the "socialization conversation" at adulthood since by the time we are adults we've been so highly socialized that it's damn near impossible to even know who we are apart from out socialized selves.
so yeah, that's why i brought up birth.
--------------------
"We are all intoxicated. We were born into an insane asylum, a world crazy-making. We believe what we see and hear. The real myth is the myth of sanity, of rationality: it's a disease that is eating away at the earth. All the poisons flow from our denial. We deny madness, we forget our crimes, we dismember the corpse, we imprison our children. We need poison to poison the poison, to remember the sacred nature of intoxication, the green body of the young god." ~ Dale Pendell
|
gerryjarcia
biophiliac



Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 1,889
Loc: the woods
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: PeterGriffin467]
#14178557 - 03/24/11 08:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
PeterGriffin467 said: I like to trip every so often and loved it as a teenager but I hate this "pyschs would change the world attitude". "Dude if only everyone in the world would eat acid mannnnn the world would be so much better and such a better place" load of horseshit. Flame away
yeah, that's actually not what this conversation is about, but thanks for bringing all your personal baggage into it
--------------------
"We are all intoxicated. We were born into an insane asylum, a world crazy-making. We believe what we see and hear. The real myth is the myth of sanity, of rationality: it's a disease that is eating away at the earth. All the poisons flow from our denial. We deny madness, we forget our crimes, we dismember the corpse, we imprison our children. We need poison to poison the poison, to remember the sacred nature of intoxication, the green body of the young god." ~ Dale Pendell
|
DarkMatterOfFact
ZealtheDealforthePill



Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 1,602
Loc: South Cali
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: gerryjarcia]
#14178568 - 03/24/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
gerryjarcia said:
Quote:
The Whale said: Very interesting and descriptive reply. I would have to mostly agree.
I just feel like people would sooner or later get tired of so many roles, masks, and fabricated appearances. Almost like when you catch a person looking at themselves in the mirror when they believe no one is looking; or when you overhear someone talking to themselves; or when people take long walks just for the sake of being reflective... it's like people do occasionally edge away from the constraints of society, so have these particular tools not caught on with more introspective or curious individuals? The majority of people, I believe, are just really good at pretending everything is on track... which it is, but the train conductor isn't the president and the train tracks are carved out of chaos, not rules.
i know exactly what you mean. i have many friends who i think would greatly benefit from the psychedelic experience. friends that are reflective and contemplative by nature. i've actually had talks here and there with some of these friends (friends who have never experienced psychedelics) about some of my psychedelic experiences and they seem to shrug off the validity of the experience because it happened while i was "under the influence of drugs".
somehow taking a drug is seen as an inauthentic means to gaining spiritual insight, exploring the inner self or delving headlong into the mystery that is existence. for the most part, i've stopped sharing my experiences with friends because of the negative or flippant responses i've received over the years.
i've thought a lot about the original question you opened this thread with. one of the things i often ponder is the current state of the culture that surrounds us (i live in the U.S.). most of my friends live fairly insecure lives. most young people i know in America (and a lot of the older folks, too) feel no excitement for the future. they see a country whose economic system is broke. they see their parents unable to make ends meet and they see themselves having to re-adjust their own hopes and dreams to fit the current reality.
this is a time of great upheaval for many people in the U.S. the old ways of existing cannot be relied upon and that's really scary for the next generation of people who are being called upon to be the "adults".
all that to say, i think many of my friends aren't in a good place mentally. they are extremely worried and anxious about the present and the future.
i think many of them fear that psychedelics would only exacerbate their problems. and for many of them, i think they are somewhat correct.
shit, i just wrote a fuckin essay. damn, i wish i could sit and talk with you face to face about this shit, OP. you sound like and interesting person 
Interesting post and my thoughts exactly on current society. Mass insanity is a reality when we live such addiction filled lives. Moderation would help alot in every retrospect either by force or freewill. But nature has its way of fixing itself ..human or otherwise.
--------------------
Nixon was a asshole. Just look at his biggest creation. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the DEA. Which secretly stands for Demonizing Everyone by Allegations.
|
PeterGriffin467
Dirt Grub


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 6,647
Loc: six feet under
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: gerryjarcia]
#14178569 - 03/24/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
cool story nOOb
-------------------- "I just need to check inside ya asshole SIR.... Asshole clear!"
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: gerryjarcia]
#14178572 - 03/24/11 08:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
gerryjarcia said:
Quote:
Poid said: I didn't get the feeling that there was any mention of infanthood, I thought he was speaking strictly about adults. 
i brought up "infanthood" only because that is where you have to start when talking about socialization. you can't genuinely start the "socialization conversation" at adulthood since by the time we are adults we've been so highly socialized that it's damn near impossible to even know who we are apart from out socialized selves.
If socialization is the process of inheriting norms, customs and ideologies, then technically, one can be socialized at any age (e.g. one can move from one country to another); according to this definition of socialization, it doesn't necessarily have to occur during infanthood.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
The Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: PeterGriffin467]
#14178585 - 03/24/11 09:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
PeterGriffin467 said: Pyschs are fucking fake, they are fun to do and can maybe open your mind a bit for the day you trip possibly a few days after but that shit fades fast. Any profound thoughts you have during a trip seem so significant while in the midst of it but once you return back to normal they are nonsense. I like to trip every so often and loved it as a teenager but I hate this "pyschs would change the world attitude". "Dude if only everyone in the world would eat acid mannnnn the world would be so much better and such a better place" load of horseshit. Flame away
No one said the world would be a "better place" because of psychedelics. But question this...
If they aren't essential to our evolution as a species or development as an individual, then how come "entheogens" have been used by countless cultures on every continent from as far back as history reveals. Archaeologists recently discovered a satchel of cannabis on a shaman's remains that were dated 5,000 years old.
It's not that psychedelics need to be in the world, or "what if they were." Psychedelics are here to stay. They're embedded in the causal string of events that are continually unfolding in history. The real questions (in my opinion) are really why are we treating them in the particular ways that we are; why are they unapproachable by some people; why are some ideologies fearful of the experience, etc.
The transient nature of the meaningfulness is true of any experience, whether it involves psychedelics or the smell of your grandmother after she kisses your cheek before departing.
I think Tool said it best in Rosetta Stoned: "I must remember to write it down, but I forgot my pen again."
As if the mystery would make a home in your front pocket anyway.
--------------------
|
PeterGriffin467
Dirt Grub


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 6,647
Loc: six feet under
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
#14178593 - 03/24/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- "I just need to check inside ya asshole SIR.... Asshole clear!"
|
The Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: PeterGriffin467]
#14178600 - 03/24/11 09:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
PeterGriffin467 said:

Then fuck off. No one asked for your little bored emoticons. If it doesn't interest you, click elsewhere.
--------------------
|
Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d


Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
#14178602 - 03/24/11 09:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Because the novelty eventually wears off and you realize that people who think psychedelics are the answer to everything are no different then people who think jesus is the answer to everything.
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
|
gerryjarcia
biophiliac



Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 1,889
Loc: the woods
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: Poid]
#14178605 - 03/24/11 09:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Poid said: If socialization is the process of inheriting norms, customs and ideologies, then technically, one can be socialized at any age (e.g. one can move from one country to another); according to this definition of socialization, it doesn't necessarily have to occur during infanthood.
of course you can be socialized by leaving one society and attempting to join another and yes, that can happen at any age (although generally the older you get the more difficult it becomes to assimilate into a new culture).
i was assuming we were talking about one person growing up in the same culture for most of their life.
--------------------
"We are all intoxicated. We were born into an insane asylum, a world crazy-making. We believe what we see and hear. The real myth is the myth of sanity, of rationality: it's a disease that is eating away at the earth. All the poisons flow from our denial. We deny madness, we forget our crimes, we dismember the corpse, we imprison our children. We need poison to poison the poison, to remember the sacred nature of intoxication, the green body of the young god." ~ Dale Pendell
|
Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d


Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: gerryjarcia]
#14178612 - 03/24/11 09:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
gerryjarcia said:
Quote:
The Whale said: And again, like McKenna said, these "hallucinations" are manifested from the mind itself, they aren't hiding in the electron fixtures of the psychedelics. They jump out of our heads from the archetypes, our dreams and fears, and from our history as a species.
My $0.02 anyway.
I often observe the archetypes and dreams and fears much more lucidly when on psychedelics. For me, tripping is nothing more than a way to remember what i already know but have somehow forgotten in my day to day existence.
Something I often think on is how all consuming the cultural narrative is. It's convincing as fuck if you play along. I mean we've got all the characters and costumes worked out. We've got the roles and archetypes all ready to go. All we need is for someone to step into the role and voila!, you've got a cultural identity.
You can live out a scripted existence if that's what you seek because we've already got the script written and waiting.
great conversation and good questions. thanks for asking.
This is actually a quality post. Good job.
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
|
The Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
|
|
Quote:
Penguarky Tunguin said: Because the novelty eventually wears off and you realize that people who think psychedelics are the answer to everything are no different then people who think jesus is the answer to everything.
But I would say that psychedelics are actually anti-ideology. It isn't a belief system, or a "Jesus." It's just your own mind, and it's a personal experience that is accessible to anyone at anytime, from here to Timbuktu.
Psychedelics aren't the answer to everything (remember R.A. Wilson's quote that 'no one model can contain all the models; reality is non-simultaneously apprehended'), but they are certainly included among the answers for the simple fact that they are here.
--------------------
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
#14178617 - 03/24/11 09:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
PeterGriffin467 said: Pyschs are fucking fake, they are fun to do and can maybe open your mind a bit for the day you trip possibly a few days after but that shit fades fast. Any profound thoughts you have during a trip seem so significant while in the midst of it but once you return back to normal they are nonsense. I like to trip every so often and loved it as a teenager but I hate this "pyschs would change the world attitude". "Dude if only everyone in the world would eat acid mannnnn the world would be so much better and such a better place" load of horseshit. Flame away
No one said the world would be a "better place" because of psychedelics. But question this...
If they aren't essential to our evolution as a species or development as an individual, then how come "entheogens" have been used by countless cultures on every continent from as far back as history reveals. Archaeologists recently discovered a satchel of cannabis on a shaman's remains that were dated 5,000 years old.
It's not that psychedelics need to be in the world, or "what if they were." Psychedelics are here to stay. They're embedded in the causal string of events that are continually unfolding in history. The real questions (in my opinion) are really why are we treating them in the particular ways that we are; why are they unapproachable by some people; why are some ideologies fearful of the experience, etc.
It's called death anxiety:
Quote:
According to Becker, much of people's daily behavior consists of attempts to deny death and thereby keep their basic anxiety under control. People would have a difficult time controlling their anxiety, though, if alarming realities continued to intrude and if they were exposed to brutal reminders of their vulnerability. Becker also suggested that this is where society plays its role. No function of society is more crucial than its strengthening of individual defenses against death anxiety. Becker's analysis of society convinced him that many beliefs and practices are in the service of death denial, that is, reducing the experience of anxiety. Funeral homes with their flowers and homilies, and the medical system with its evasions, are only among the more obvious societal elements that join with individuals to maintain the fiction that there is nothing to fear.
Ritualistic behavior on the part of both individuals and social institutions generally has the underlying purpose of channeling and finding employment for what otherwise would surface as disorganizing death anxiety. Schizophrenics suffer as they do because their fragile defenses fail to protect them against the terror of annihilation. "Normal" people in a "normal" society function more competently in everyday life because they have succeeded at least temporarily in denying death.
Other approaches to understanding death anxiety and fear were introduced in the late twentieth century. Terror management theory is based on studies finding that people who felt better about themselves also reported having less death-related anxiety. These data immediately suggested possibilities for preventing or reducing disturbingly high levels of death anxiety: Help people to develop strong self-esteem and they are less likely to be disabled by death anxiety. If self-esteem serves as a buffer against anxiety, might not society also be serving this function just as Becker had suggested? People seem to derive protection against death anxiety from worldview faith as well as from their own self-esteem. "Worldview faith" can be understood as religious belief or some other conviction that human life is meaningful, as well as general confidence that society is just and caring.
Another fresh approach, regret theory, was proposed in 1996 by Adrian Tomer and Grafton Eliason. Regret theory focuses on the way in which people evaluate the quality or worth of their lives. The prospect of death is likely to make people more anxious if they feel that they have not and cannot accomplish something good in life. People might torment themselves with regrets over past failures and missed opportunities or with thoughts of future accomplishments and experiences that will not be possible. Regret theory (similar in some respects to Robert Butler's life review approach) also has implications for anxiety reduction. People can reconsider their memories and expectations, for example, and also discover how to live more fully in the present moment.
Robert Kastenbaum suggests that people might not need a special theory for death anxiety and fear. Instead, they can make use of mainstream research in the field of life span development. Anxiety may have roots in people's physical being, but it is through personal experiences and social encounters that they learn what might harm them and, therefore, what they should fear. These fears also bear the marks of sociohistorical circumstances. For example, fear of the dead was salient in many preliterate societies throughout the world, while fear of being buried alive became widespread in nineteenth-century Europe and America. In modern times many people express the somewhat related fear of being sustained in a persistent vegetative state between life and death. Death-related fears, then, develop within particular social contexts and particular individual experiences. People do not have to rely upon the untested and perhaps untestable opposing views of Freud and Becker—that they are either incapable of experiencing death anxiety, or that death anxiety is the source of all fears. It is more useful to observe how their fears as well as their joys and enthusiasms are influenced by the interaction between cognitive development and social learning experiences. In this way people will be in a better position to help the next generation learn to identify actual threats to their lives while not overreacting to all possible alarms all the time.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
android313
zzzzzz


Registered: 04/30/10
Posts: 77
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
#14178621 - 03/24/11 09:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
[poid] ? [/poid]
LOL I'm seriously enjoying this thread.
Quote:
The Whale said:In my opinion, we are always "on drugs." Meaning, concerning biochemical processes, our mind is a fluctuating zoo of hormones, neurotransmitters, glucose and sodium pathways, electrical currents, etc. which are all mediated by genetics, environment, diet, sleep, gender, etc. So in essence there is no such thing as a sober "drug free" you. Even normal, waking reality is a hodge-podge of chemicals (if one chooses to interpret reality as somehow being composed of chemicals).
Firstly, I agree with almost everything you've said and thus cheered me up:D. And regarding the quote: I do sort of interpret reality as a huge manifestation of biochemical processes bound only by the physical forces that control/created them. By taking psychedelics one's merely viewing his/her reality in a different light to say, by a slight chemical alteration of the brain. And what a difference that makes, really. Cheers.
|
PeterGriffin467
Dirt Grub


Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 6,647
Loc: six feet under
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
Penguarky Tunguin said: Because the novelty eventually wears off and you realize that people who think psychedelics are the answer to everything are no different then people who think jesus is the answer to everything.
-------------------- "I just need to check inside ya asshole SIR.... Asshole clear!"
|
The Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc:
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
#14178634 - 03/24/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
You can live out a scripted existence if that's what you seek because we've already got the script written and waiting.
As a social creature, and given how expansive and pervasive human culture is, I would say it is difficult to grow or mature as an individual [soul/person/Self/spirit] without identifying at least partially with the roles and identities that you inherent out of necessity and contact.
Maybe the implication is to what extent we identify and attach ourselves to those roles as if they possess any real meaning beyond the artificiality and "social transience" of its creation.
--------------------
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: gerryjarcia]
#14178648 - 03/24/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
gerryjarcia said: i was assuming we were talking about one person growing up in the same culture for most of their life.
Even then, you can switch to a new group of friends, learn the proper mannerisms when you eat dinner at a friend's house, learn the new rules of the school you're going to, get along with people at your new job, and many more things that involve socialization.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d


Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
|
Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
#14178649 - 03/24/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Whale said:
Quote:
Penguarky Tunguin said: Because the novelty eventually wears off and you realize that people who think psychedelics are the answer to everything are no different then people who think jesus is the answer to everything.
But I would say that psychedelics are actually anti-ideology. It isn't a belief system, or a "Jesus." It's just your own mind, and it's a personal experience that is accessible to anyone at anytime, from here to Timbuktu.
Psychedelics aren't the answer to everything (remember R.A. Wilson's quote that 'no one model can contain all the models; reality is non-simultaneously apprehended'), but they are certainly included among the answers for the simple fact that they are here.
I agree. But many psychonauts I've met believe they (the drugs) are the answer. I'm not sure if you've ever read Ken Wilber, but I think his work is a natural progression from RAW's work. One of my favorite sayings of his is "Make sure to turn temporary states into permanent traits." Meaning, take what you experience from the psychedelic state and integrate them into a more permanent life trait.
Many trippers, especially newbies, do not realize this, and are impressed with the new visuals and outlook on life, which is great, but it is definitely not the key to anything. It's just simply another step in the walk of life.
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
|
|