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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: Salomon]
    #14178137 - 03/24/11 07:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I don't like being mind-raped, it's scary.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleCaine
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14178144 - 03/24/11 07:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
IMO, most, if not all people have a starving desire to feel part of something larger.





Only if it is known. Things so large that we cannot even begin to comprehend them are what scares people. Religion is a way to give a label to that unknown, so people can feel like they actually belong to this larger entity.

Quote:

Poid said:
Which is?





We will never know, but the thought that we may find out seems to terrify people.


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InvisibleSalomon
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: Poid]
    #14178152 - 03/24/11 07:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I don't like being mind-raped, it's scary.






how's it feel to be part of a majority, chief?


--------------------
EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT



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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: Poid]
    #14178157 - 03/24/11 07:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:

Quote:

Caine said:
People don't want to discover the true origin and significance of the universe...




Which is?





Dude, he was just making a point.


Quote:

the majority of drug users just want to GET SUPER FUCKED UP MANNNNNNN




I think the word fucked up should either be changed or specified to a better degree. As far as being "altered" or "transformed," psychedelics take the trophy for bending your reality.

I think instead of saying "I wanna get fucked up!", people should instead say "I want to experience [horniness, a huge ego, goofy laughter, mindlessness, insomnia, angry rage, black outs, etc.]"

"Fucked up" is so non-descript, but I guess the people who say that are pretty non-descript people.


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: Salomon]
    #14178164 - 03/24/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Caine said:
Quote:

Poid said:
IMO, most, if not all people have a starving desire to feel part of something larger.





Only if it is known. Things so large that we cannot even begin to comprehend them are what scares people. Religion is a way to give a label to that unknown, so people can feel like they actually belong to this larger entity.

Quote:

Poid said:
Which is?





We will never know, but the thought that we may find out seems to terrify people.


Yeah I pretty much agree. :thumbup:


Quote:

Salomon said:
Quote:

Poid said:
I don't like being mind-raped, it's scary.






how's it feel to be part of a majority, chief?


Comforting. :datass:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
    #14178185 - 03/24/11 07:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

OK, next question if anyone wants to share their opinion.

Judging by the average response, it seems that - plain and simple - some people just aren't made out for the experience (or don't desire it, can't handle it, would rather not, etc.):

Then why is it that only a minority of people, themselves within a very small sub-group, are not only willing to try these things... but actually derive meaning from the experience?

Read what Ram Dass said:

"I think what happens almost immediately afterwards is that society figures out how to socialize it so that ego is maintained, whether it's the individual ego or the communal or societal or family ego. And then you figure out the dosage so you can be safe. And it's that very safety that is the trivialization of it. I've watched everybody I know learn how to socialize it so they could stay the same."


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
    #14178219 - 03/24/11 08:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
Then why is it that only a minority of people, themselves within a very small sub-group, are not only willing to try these things... but actually derive meaning from the experience?


Because they have lots of balls. :shrug:


Quote:

The Whale said:
Read what Ram Dass said:

"I think what happens almost immediately afterwards is that society figures out how to socialize it so that ego is maintained, whether it's the individual ego or the communal or societal or family ego."


We have three egos? :undecided:

What does he mean by "society figures out how to socialize it"?


Quote:

The Whale said:
"And then you figure out the dosage so you can be safe. And it's that very safety that is the trivialization of it. I've watched everybody I know learn how to socialize it so they could stay the same."


Why is he making that out to be a bad thing?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14178252 - 03/24/11 08:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

We have three egos? 




By ego he is referring to role behavior in any number of groups or environments, which is what the ego is anyway; it's a role of "myself" as a singular entity in the "reality [external] environment."

Quote:


What does he mean by "society figures out how to socialize it"?




Well right now it is being socialized by MAPS and other organizations who squeeze it into the FDA paradigm by claiming it is best as a controlled pharmaceutical under controlled supervision of doctors.

These are all SOCIAL notions: governments, control, doctors, pharmaceuticals, regulations, etc.

This isn't very complicated, Poid.


--------------------


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale] * 1
    #14178260 - 03/24/11 08:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Why is he making that out to be a bad thing?




:facepalm:

Why does the ratio of your questions outnumber the ratio of your content?

Attachment is not a good thing, that's why. Try Google.


--------------------


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Invisiblegerryjarcia
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
    #14178267 - 03/24/11 08:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
Very interesting and descriptive reply. I would have to mostly agree.

I just feel like people would sooner or later get tired of so many roles, masks, and fabricated appearances. Almost like when you catch a person looking at themselves in the mirror when they believe no one is looking; or when you overhear someone talking to themselves; or when people take long walks just for the sake of being reflective... it's like people do occasionally edge away from the constraints of society, so have these particular tools not caught on with more introspective or curious individuals? The majority of people, I believe, are just really good at pretending everything is on track... which it is, but the train conductor isn't the president and the train tracks are carved out of chaos, not rules.




i know exactly what you mean. i have many friends who i think would greatly benefit from the psychedelic experience. friends that are reflective and contemplative by nature. i've actually had talks here and there with some of these friends (friends who have never experienced psychedelics) about some of my psychedelic experiences and they seem to shrug off the validity of the experience because it happened while i was "under the influence of drugs".

somehow taking a drug is seen as an inauthentic means to gaining spiritual insight, exploring the inner self or delving headlong into the mystery that is existence. for the most part, i've stopped sharing my experiences with friends because of the negative or flippant responses i've received over the years.

i've thought a lot about the original question you opened this thread with. one of the things i often ponder is the current state of the culture that surrounds us (i live in the U.S.). most of my friends live fairly insecure lives. most young people i know in America (and a lot of the older folks, too) feel no excitement for the future. they see a country whose economic system is broke. they see their parents unable to make ends meet and they see themselves having to re-adjust their own hopes and dreams to fit the current reality.

this is a time of great upheaval for many people in the U.S. the old ways of existing cannot be relied upon and that's really scary for the next generation of people who are being called upon to be the "adults".

all that to say, i think many of my friends aren't in a good place mentally. they are extremely worried and anxious about the present and the future.

i think many of them fear that psychedelics would only exacerbate their problems. and for many of them, i think they are somewhat correct.

shit, i just wrote a fuckin essay. damn, i wish i could sit and talk with you face to face about this shit, OP. you sound like and interesting person :mushroom2:


--------------------


"We are all intoxicated. We were born into an insane asylum, a world crazy-making. We believe what we see and hear. The real myth is the myth of sanity, of rationality: it's a disease that is eating away at the earth. All the poisons flow from our denial. We deny madness, we forget our crimes, we dismember the corpse, we imprison our children. We need poison to poison the poison, to remember the sacred nature of intoxication, the green body of the young god." ~ Dale Pendell


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: gerryjarcia] * 1
    #14178318 - 03/24/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gerryjarcia said:
Quote:

The Whale said:
Very interesting and descriptive reply. I would have to mostly agree.

I just feel like people would sooner or later get tired of so many roles, masks, and fabricated appearances. Almost like when you catch a person looking at themselves in the mirror when they believe no one is looking; or when you overhear someone talking to themselves; or when people take long walks just for the sake of being reflective... it's like people do occasionally edge away from the constraints of society, so have these particular tools not caught on with more introspective or curious individuals? The majority of people, I believe, are just really good at pretending everything is on track... which it is, but the train conductor isn't the president and the train tracks are carved out of chaos, not rules.




i know exactly what you mean. i have many friends who i think would greatly benefit from the psychedelic experience. friends that are reflective and contemplative by nature. i've actually had talks here and there with some of these friends (friends who have never experienced psychedelics) about some of my psychedelic experiences and they seem to shrug off the validity of the experience because it happened while i was "under the influence of drugs".

somehow taking a drug is seen as an inauthentic means to gaining spiritual insight, exploring the inner self or delving headlong into the mystery that is existence. for the most part, i've stopped sharing my experiences with friends because of the negative or flippant responses i've received over the years.

i've thought a lot about the original question you opened this thread with. one of the things i often ponder is the current state of the culture that surrounds us (i live in the U.S.). most of my friends live fairly insecure lives. most young people i know in America (and a lot of the older folks, too) feel no excitement for the future. they see a country whose economic system is broke. they see their parents unable to make ends meet and they see themselves having to re-adjust their own hopes and dreams to fit the current reality.

this is a time of great upheaval for many people in the U.S. the old ways of existing cannot be relied upon and that's really scary for the next generation of people who are being called upon to be the "adults".

all that to say, i think many of my friends aren't in a good place mentally. they are extremely worried and anxious about the present and the future.

i think many of them fear that psychedelics would only exacerbate their problems. and for many of them, i think they are somewhat correct.

shit, i just wrote a fuckin essay. damn, i wish i could sit and talk with you face to face about this shit, OP. you sound like and interesting person :mushroom2:




Thanks for the extended reply. The internet is good at semi-remedying the distance that is so typical between people who have similar (yet "unusual") interests.

As far as the whole "being on drugs" issue is concerned, I've always taken issue with that one personally. There is a book called Zig Zag Zen that draws parallels between Eastern religions and the psychedelic experience, including commentary from people who believe there are connections, as well as from people who believe drugs play no role in meditation and consciousness expansion.

In my opinion, we are always "on drugs." Meaning, concerning biochemical processes, our mind is a fluctuating zoo of hormones, neurotransmitters, glucose and sodium pathways, electrical currents, etc. which are all mediated by genetics, environment, diet, sleep, gender, etc. So in essence there is no such thing as a sober "drug free" you. Even normal, waking reality is a hodge-podge of chemicals (if one chooses to interpret reality as somehow being composed of chemicals).

On another level, experience is experience. A roller coaster is genuinely thrilling and exciting, despite the fact it's operated by a "fake" machine. The feelings it gives (and the neuro- behavior it induces) is as real as can fucking be. And again, like McKenna said, these "hallucinations" are manifested from the mind itself, they aren't hiding in the electron fixtures of the psychedelics. They jump out of our heads from the archetypes, our dreams and fears, and from our history as a species.

My $0.02 anyway.


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
    #14178325 - 03/24/11 08:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
Quote:

We have three egos? 




By ego he is referring to role behavior in any number of groups or environments, which is what the ego is anyway; it's a role of "myself" as a singular entity in the "reality [external] environment."

Quote:

What does he mean by "society figures out how to socialize it"?




Well right now it is being socialized by MAPS and other organizations who squeeze it into the FDA paradigm by claiming it is best as a controlled pharmaceutical under controlled supervision of doctors.

These are all SOCIAL notions: governments, control, doctors, pharmaceuticals, regulations, etc.

This isn't very complicated, Poid.


How do those things collectively figure out how to "socialize" it? Don't people learn how to socialize their own egos themselves? I dunno, I just feel like he's attributing some sort of mystical quality to society or something. :shrug:


Quote:

The Whale said:
Quote:

Why is he making that out to be a bad thing?




:facepalm:

Why does the ratio of your questions outnumber the ratio of your content?


Why are you making that out to be a bad thing? :lol:


Quote:

The Whale said:
Attachment is not a good thing, that's why. Try Google.


I wasn't aware that attachment was implied by "I've watched everybody I know learn how to socialize it so they could stay the same", and I still don't see how it's necessarily implied by that sentence (one can remain the same without being attached)--but, you know this guy more than I do, so you're probably more familiar with his concepts. :shrug2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: Poid]
    #14178367 - 03/24/11 08:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
  • How do those things collectively figure out how to "socialize" it?

  • Don't people learn how to socialize their own egos themselves?

  • Why are you making that out to be a bad thing?





[poid] ? [/poid]


--------------------


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Invisiblegerryjarcia
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
    #14178391 - 03/24/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
And again, like McKenna said, these "hallucinations" are manifested from the mind itself, they aren't hiding in the electron fixtures of the psychedelics. They jump out of our heads from the archetypes, our dreams and fears, and from our history as a species.

My $0.02 anyway.




I often observe the archetypes and dreams and fears much more lucidly when on psychedelics. For me, tripping is nothing more than a way to remember what i already know but have somehow forgotten in my day to day existence.

Something I often think on is how all consuming the cultural narrative is. It's  convincing as fuck if you play along. I mean we've got all the characters and costumes worked out. We've got the roles and archetypes all ready to go. All we need is for someone to step into the role and voila!, you've got a cultural identity.

You can live out a scripted existence if that's what you seek because we've already got the script written and waiting.

great conversation and good questions. thanks for asking.


--------------------


"We are all intoxicated. We were born into an insane asylum, a world crazy-making. We believe what we see and hear. The real myth is the myth of sanity, of rationality: it's a disease that is eating away at the earth. All the poisons flow from our denial. We deny madness, we forget our crimes, we dismember the corpse, we imprison our children. We need poison to poison the poison, to remember the sacred nature of intoxication, the green body of the young god." ~ Dale Pendell


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
    #14178399 - 03/24/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
Quote:

Poid said:
  • How do those things collectively figure out how to "socialize" it?

  • Don't people learn how to socialize their own egos themselves?

  • Why are you making that out to be a bad thing?





[poid] ? [/poid]


OK, got it, I'll never question you ever again. :bowdown:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: The Whale]
    #14178406 - 03/24/11 08:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

u mad?


--------------------
EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT



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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: Salomon]
    #14178427 - 03/24/11 08:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Don't question him. :shoosh:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Invisiblegerryjarcia
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: Poid]
    #14178474 - 03/24/11 08:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Don't people learn how to socialize their own egos themselves?





i'm sure to some extent a persons ego is in the process of being formed before the process of socialization begins. but socialization begins with such force and immediacy upon your arrival into this world that i'm not sure you can track down an ego that was solely socialized by itself :shrug:

i am assuming you've taken some basic sociology or psychology classes or at least studied the process of socialization on your own. am I wrong in assuming this?


--------------------


"We are all intoxicated. We were born into an insane asylum, a world crazy-making. We believe what we see and hear. The real myth is the myth of sanity, of rationality: it's a disease that is eating away at the earth. All the poisons flow from our denial. We deny madness, we forget our crimes, we dismember the corpse, we imprison our children. We need poison to poison the poison, to remember the sacred nature of intoxication, the green body of the young god." ~ Dale Pendell


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14178489 - 03/24/11 08:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Don't question him. :shoosh:




Quote:

OK, got it, I'll never question you ever again.




It's not about questioning me. :facepalm:

Listen, this is actually a very simple concept.

There is a difference between questioning someone's ideas or assertions because you don't agree with their validity (by all means - proceed), or just flat out asking countless questions which do not further the discussion at all in any critical way whatsoever.

You just ask a shitload of questions without contributing anything.

Yet even this fundamental quality of your posts in this thread you cannot seem to understand.


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Why are psychedelics not a bigger deal? [Re: gerryjarcia]
    #14178501 - 03/24/11 08:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gerryjarcia said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Don't people learn how to socialize their own egos themselves?





i'm sure to some extent a persons ego is in the process of being formed before the process of socialization begins. but socialization begins with such force and immediacy upon your arrival into this world that i'm not sure you can track down an ego that was solely socialized by itself :shrug:


I didn't get the feeling that there was any mention of infanthood, I thought he was speaking strictly about adults. :shrug:


Quote:

gerryjarcia said:
i am assuming you've taken some basic sociology or psychology classes or at least studied the process of socialization on your own. am I wrong in assuming this?


I was in Psych 101, and I think a Developmental Psychology class a few years ago (I dropped out before I finished, though:stoned:); I have much to learn, but I think I at least kind of grasp the basics of socialization. :blah:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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