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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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"How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?"
    #14164922 - 03/22/11 02:23 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Apparently it doesn't matter that I have addressed this question by a fellow member(s) at least a dozen times over the years. We shall try once more.

There are only three ways of a human being to become aware of the immaterial:

1. Second-hand through books or stories or other media.
2. Actual impingement on the physical senses.
3. Some sort of internal sensing.

Possibility #1 can easily be discarded as it must be preceded by #2 or #3 (provided it is not pure fiction/allegory).

If it is possibility #2, then the immaterial is actually material and would leave traces. It would definitely be testable and detectable and would have to follow physical laws.

So all we are truly left with is #3. In this realm we have imagination and misperception and raw belief based on #1, which is why the immaterial has led, not to a convergent picture of an immaterial world, but a divergent one consisting of 10,000+ religions and sub-religions along with untold pictures of what the 'after-life' looks like, as would be expected.


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Invisibleirie.one
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14165542 - 03/22/11 04:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Can you give an example of "immaterial"? Do you mean something immaterial like the existence of a supposed God?


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: irie.one]
    #14165701 - 03/22/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

As far as an afterlife goes I guess you can only become aware of a concept of it. That would be through methods 1 and 3. Same goes for speculations about what it would look like. IMO the only way you might become aware of a what happens after life is with a bullet in the head (number 2). And there is no promise you will be aware of anything after that happens :grin:.


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"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

Edited by dustinthewind13 (03/22/11 05:12 PM)

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14166845 - 03/22/11 08:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'll down 2 beers to that!

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Invisiblejebustrist
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: Freedom]
    #14166954 - 03/22/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah god is a fairy tale told by people afraid of dying we get it.

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14167503 - 03/22/11 11:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Do you agree experience is immaterial?


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14167702 - 03/22/11 11:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If it is possibility #2, then the immaterial is actually material and would leave traces. It would definitely be testable and detectable and would have to follow physical laws.





Not at all. Much of spirituality has to do with subtle energies, true, but they are so much subtler than the gross physical world that they do not follow its laws. Just as Newton's theories were correct for just about everything, it turned out there were more subtle explanations for the forces at work which einstein discovered.  Most people think that what they see around them is a totally independent physical reality, when in reality it is very much connected to the functioning of your mind, ultimately to the point where a distinction is pointless. Since many of these substances are purely mental in nature, science in its current paradigm isn't gonna be able to analyze them, that would take a totally different approach to mind then what is common in academia.

The spectrum of energy goes like this as i understand it: solid matter--->vital force, the energy of the body---->mental body (mind)----->intellect (when the soul/being is up active in the mind, as i understand it)------>heart/being/soul...also known as the "body of bliss." Each one of these states supports the one before it. Heart supports intellect, intellect supports mind, etc.  Beyond this there is the unmanifest absolute from which everything comes, and I couldn't really tell you much about that.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: g00ru]
    #14167967 - 03/23/11 12:49 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The spectrum of energy goes like this as i understand it




And yet, you are totally unable to communicate how you came to this 'understanding'. :rolleyes:


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: g00ru]
    #14168452 - 03/23/11 05:14 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I don't get this notion either.  I hear it all the time and the person claiming it generally never produces any justification for their claim.  (generally its in the form of either shifting the burden of proof or relying upon the claimed inability to prove their idea as some justification for believing it :confused:  )

A small minority of posters will at least claim they really mean that these things can't be directly probed, but then neither can anything else, so their point seems to have nothing particular to do with whatever the class is they're claiming is immune to scientific scrutiny.



Quote:

guruu said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If it is possibility #2, then the immaterial is actually material and would leave traces. It would definitely be testable and detectable and would have to follow physical laws.





Not at all. Much of spirituality has to do with subtle energies, true, but they are so much subtler than the gross physical world that they do not follow its laws. Just as Newton's theories were correct for just about everything, it turned out there were more subtle explanations for the forces at work which einstein discovered.  Most people think that what they see around them is a totally independent physical reality, when in reality it is very much connected to the functioning of your mind, ultimately to the point where a distinction is pointless. Since many of these substances are purely mental in nature, science in its current paradigm isn't gonna be able to analyze them, that would take a totally different approach to mind then what is common in academia.

The spectrum of energy goes like this as i understand it: solid matter--->vital force, the energy of the body---->mental body (mind)----->intellect (when the soul/being is up active in the mind, as i understand it)------>heart/being/soul...also known as the "body of bliss." Each one of these states supports the one before it. Heart supports intellect, intellect supports mind, etc.  Beyond this there is the unmanifest absolute from which everything comes, and I couldn't really tell you much about that.






What is the justification for all these claims, i.e. what do you rely upon to demonstrate their validity?

What is the distinction you draw between "subtle" immaterial things that can't be scientifically probed and other phenomena that can?  You claim there's some qualitative difference but don't explain what particularly that difference is nor how you've determined it.  If immaterial things are observable by the person, wouldn't that mean they are per se observable by other means- such as asking the person what they observe, measuring it with instrumentation, observing the reaction of the person? 

Seems you either have the phenomena be observable, in which case those observing it can produce data that is amenable to scientific study, or you have something that is unobservable in which case it is no different than a fictional thing as it cannot interact with the world and nobody could have a justified belief in it as no reason for such belief could be detected.  Your claim that some things are not observable yet exist seems to suffer obvious problems as if you know it exists you can measure whatever means through which you've been able to determine its existence, if you are correct in your determination of existance, and hence the phenomena becomes scientifically available.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: johnm214]
    #14168642 - 03/23/11 07:40 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Exactly, but the claimants want it both ways.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14168691 - 03/23/11 08:06 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Kinda like Icelander. :smirk:

:doggystyle:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14168760 - 03/23/11 08:34 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

And yet, you are totally unable to communicate how you came to this 'understanding'.

He read it in a book at Barnes & Noble silly. :yesnod:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: Diploid]
    #14168825 - 03/23/11 08:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Barnes & Noble went under. Seems too many spiritual types would spend the morning reading New Age books, but would rarely buy any.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14168858 - 03/23/11 09:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

No that was Borders. B&N's bullshit... uh, I mean new age section is alive and well.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: Diploid]
    #14168874 - 03/23/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I always like walking by the New Age section in my local Borders to check out the kind of folks that are interested in that crap. :grin:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: Poid]
    #14169034 - 03/23/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Why is it that if there's no scientific method to observe it, it must not exist?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: learningtofly]
    #14169059 - 03/23/11 10:12 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Not sure if anybody said that--the issue is that some people believe in things that haven't been demonstrated to them, or that cannot be demonstrated.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: Poid]
    #14169099 - 03/23/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
Why is it that if there's no scientific method to observe it, it must not exist?



Quote:

Poid said:
or that cannot be demonstrated.




Isn't that the implication of this statement?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: learningtofly]
    #14169150 - 03/23/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I meant to say "cannot currently be demonstrated"--it's possible that many spiritual ideas can be proven in the future when we have more advanced technology, but people who believe in those things despite the fact that they have not been, and cannot currently be proven are hilarious.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: "How can you provide material evidence of the immaterial?" [Re: Poid]
    #14169156 - 03/23/11 10:29 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well that's the point i'm getting at: one may be able to experience something that there is currently no scientifically accepted way to measure.

EDIT: I'm not saying I believe in the immaterial, I'm just saying I think it's kind of arrogant to push it aside without evidence.


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Edited by learningtofly (03/23/11 10:30 AM)

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