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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: Muufokfok]
    #14160414 - 03/21/11 05:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

That was in context to Buckeye Oysters, not your statement. As far as I know, Sophia is holy wisdom. The kind of Knowledge that existed alongside the creator God while he worked.
It's hard to explain, Sophia to me is the female aspect of Shekinah, the divine union of the godhead before returning to the unformed singularity, or prior to the formation of everything.


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OfflineBuckeye Oysters
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: Crasher]
    #14160580 - 03/21/11 06:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Crasher said:
That was in context to Buckeye Oysters, not your statement. As far as I know, Sophia is holy wisdom. The kind of Knowledge that existed alongside the creator God while he worked.
It's hard to explain, Sophia to me is the female aspect of Shekinah, the divine union of the godhead before returning to the unformed singularity, or prior to the formation of everything.




From wikipedia on Sophia in Gnosticism:

In Gnostic tradition, Sophia is a feminine figure, analogous to the human soul but also simultaneously one of the feminine aspects of God. Gnostics held that she was the syzygy of Jesus Christ (i.e. the Bride of Christ), and Holy Spirit of the Trinity. She is occasionally referred to by the Hebrew equivalent of Achamōth (Ἀχαμώθ) and as Prunikos (Προύνικος). In the Nag Hammadi texts, Sophia is the lowest Aeon, or anthropic expression of the emanation of the light of God. She is considered to have fallen from grace in some way, in so doing creating or helping to create the material world.


--------------------
Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise.  Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated.  For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.

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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: Buckeye Oysters]
    #14160620 - 03/21/11 06:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

thanks for the wikipedia definition.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: giza]
    #14167465 - 03/22/11 10:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

giza said:
It says that Jesus was God's only begotten son.

According to Genesis, God created Adam..
- Which is the only person according to the bible that God created, besides Eve.

Example:
When a child is created and is male it is called a 'son'.

So Adam would be considered God's son, for he created him.

Any opinions/insight?




Right. Adam means earth in Hebrew. Artistically, Calvary, or Golgotha (the 'place of the skull') where the crucifixion of jesus is depicted, not only refers to a rounded outcropping of rock, but frequently, a skull is depicted at the base of the cross. This is the symbolic skull of Adam, behind which the cross is placed. The death of Adam is superimposed on the Christian version of the Edenic Tree of Life - the cross. All of these pseudo-historical descriptions are no more than highly symbolic images. Let those with ears, hear.

[center]

Look...there's even a 'shining one' about the tree.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14169632 - 03/23/11 12:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

My take on the story is that Jesus was God himself incarnate, not a seprate creation. This devine all knowing creator looked down on his creation with discust, he had to know why they were so wicked.

That's why his last words were "Forgive them lord, for they know not what they do"

His death was the affermation of free will. It freed us from our "sin" which was our sepration from God. We finally got his ear it seems.

ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

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OfflineDrugstore Cowboy
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: giza]
    #14169676 - 03/23/11 12:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

giza said:
Some more..

Now if Jesus was Adam, his whole plight to die for their sins was because he was at fault for their sin..
Since he ate of the tree of good and evil,?




Actually, it was Eve who first ate from the tree of knowledge. But regardless, I agree with that choice and would have dont the same thing.

God has no right to dictate the fate of his creation just as a father has no right to force his son into his own profession.

I'd rather have free will and take an honest shot at salvation then be some shadowy entities pet.

God came down and died because he owed it to us.


And I'm not a christian, I just enjoy the metaphorical connections between anything and anything else

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: Drugstore Cowboy]
    #14171426 - 03/23/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Drugstore Cowboy said:
My take on the story is that Jesus was God himself incarnate, not a seprate creation. This devine all knowing creator looked down on his creation with discust, he had to know why they were so wicked.

That's why his last words were "Forgive them lord, for they know not what they do"

His death was the affermation of free will. It freed us from our "sin" which was our sepration from God. We finally got his ear it seems.

ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn




Only the Johannine gospel portrays Jesus as 'God clothed with flesh.' This gospel was the latest written (80-120 CE), and it was the least historical, most mystical and mythological. It almost didn't make it into the canon. The divine offspring of God (Zeus: Greek, Deus: Latin) and a mortal woman was standard fare in classic Greek religion. The concept was simply given new names. In antiquity, impregnation could be in various forms: a golden shower from the heavens, the rape of Leda by God (Zeus) in the form of a male swan, words whispered (as the Word was whispered to Mary, mother of Jesus - old story).

The Synoptic gospels: Mark, Matthew, Luke, depicted Jesus as 'a man anointed by God,' which is closer to the Hebrew prophetic tradition. Making Jesus into a unique species of being was the unfortunate task of theology. So was the elaboration of the ONE God into a trinity, by renaming the pre-existing categories in Neo-Platonism: The ONE, The Mind (Nous), and The World Soul, which translated into the personified Father, Son, Holy Spirit/Mother.

There is nothing to presume the mind of God, so to say 'disgust,' is just a projection of human psychology onto deity.

Very little in the NT is considered to have been spoken by a historical Jesus, in fact The Jesus Seminar thinks that 87% of the words attributed to Jesus could not have, and they show why. Literal interpretation of the NT is completely wrong interpretation - not historical, not possible according to the laws of nature, not supernatural events that irrupt into nature - but midrashic writings.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineBuckeye Oysters
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14171554 - 03/23/11 05:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Think about this Drugstore Cowboy,... how can the creator call something wicked if He is supposed to be all knowing?  Such as in Genesis when God says that the world was wicked and had to destroy his own creation.  Gnostic scriptures show that it was not the True God the Father that was the character Lord in the old testament, nor the voice of God in the garden of eden.  The God in the old testament is the God of Law (or the lawful face/character of the True God) that is why he is middle ground and imperfect while Jesus, the character/voice of the True God is perfect.

Ptolomy's Letter to Flora is a short good read on this.


--------------------
Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise.  Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated.  For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.

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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: Buckeye Oysters]
    #14172055 - 03/23/11 07:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Buckeye Oysters said:
Think about this Drugstore Cowboy,... how can the creator call something wicked if He is supposed to be all knowing?  Such as in Genesis when God says that the world was wicked and had to destroy his own creation.  Gnostic scriptures show that it was not the True God the Father that was the character Lord in the old testament, nor the voice of God in the garden of eden.  The God in the old testament is the God of Law (or the lawful face/character of the True God) that is why he is middle ground and imperfect while Jesus, the character/voice of the True God is perfect.

Ptolomy's Letter to Flora is a short good read on this.




Since the god in the garden of eden wasn't the True God, maybe that is why Eve decided to oppose him by eating the fruit.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: Buckeye Oysters]
    #14172194 - 03/23/11 07:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, all good points, but Gnostic myth is just another set of myths with different conclusions. What is the practical effect? When you pray, are you going to make a disclaimer that your prayer is not intended for the Demiurge? So, a radical dualism was contrived by the Gnostics. I find the value in the Gnostics to be Gnosis proper, which is a matter of experiences which transcend the myths that point to the Gnosis. Compared with the dual possibilities of 1) denying the flesh, and 2) indulging the flesh, the Qabalists sought to transform the total being, including all aspects. The first Gnosis  of consequence is piercing the Veil of Paroketh, and being established in The Ethical Triangle, in Tiphereth, and being identified with The Witness (The Knowledge of and Conversation with One's Guardian Angel). The myths can only point, the stories are useful only to a point.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14172309 - 03/23/11 07:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I like to read them for the ethical knowledge and conduct.

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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: giza]
    #14172339 - 03/23/11 08:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

What's your guys insight on 'soulmates' or your "Eve'?

Since Adam has Eve, wouldn't you think that every one man has one woman?

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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: giza]
    #14174345 - 03/24/11 06:19 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

William blake's wife was named Sophia (Katie)


Thought that was funny....


Correct me if im wrong...But isn't Sophia the gnostic Holy spirit?

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OfflineBuckeye Oysters
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14182611 - 03/25/11 02:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Yeah, all good points, but Gnostic myth is just another set of myths with different conclusions. What is the practical effect? When you pray, are you going to make a disclaimer that your prayer is not intended for the Demiurge? So, a radical dualism was contrived by the Gnostics. I find the value in the Gnostics to be Gnosis proper, which is a matter of experiences which transcend the myths that point to the Gnosis. Compared with the dual possibilities of 1) denying the flesh, and 2) indulging the flesh, the Qabalists sought to transform the total being, including all aspects. The first Gnosis  of consequence is piercing the Veil of Paroketh, and being established in The Ethical Triangle, in Tiphereth, and being identified with The Witness (The Knowledge of and Conversation with One's Guardian Angel). The myths can only point, the stories are useful only to a point.




Myths/Fables are supposed to at least provide some information about the culture that wrote them.  Gnosticism, at least as what was collected in the Nag Hammadi Library, has a wide wide range of belief systems because of the lack of a single spiritual work at its beginning.  When Jesus left the cross there were literally hundreds of different christian sects that all had pieces of sayings by jesus and the apostles but know one could claim their piece was more truthful than others.  Somewhere down the line, before christ, gnostic ideas got mixed together with greek mythology for probably the same reasons... that no one group had a complete picture of the truth.

By definition gnosticism doesn't need any book or scripture.  It is learning about Jesus, God, and the universe by experiencing life and thinking upon it.  Like Jesus says, "To anyone that knocks, the door shall be open to him", and "seek and ye shall find".


--------------------
Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise.  Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated.  For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.

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OfflineBuckeye Oysters
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: giza]
    #14182638 - 03/25/11 02:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

giza said:
What's your guys insight on 'soulmates' or your "Eve'?

Since Adam has Eve, wouldn't you think that every one man has one woman?




In the gnostic thought our soul is the 'woman' and the holy spirit is the 'man', but the spiritual male and female are not like male and female on the world.  When we die and have the holy spirit awakened within us we marry it in heaven and become 'one'.  The soul is also known as our 'lower self' and the holy spirit is our 'higher self'.  So we eventually marry ourselves...we marry jesus, which is us! (makes you think...)


--------------------
Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise.  Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated.  For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBuckeye Oysters
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: TeamAmerica]
    #14182649 - 03/25/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TeamAmerica said:
William blake's wife was named Sophia (Katie)


Thought that was funny....


Correct me if im wrong...But isn't Sophia the gnostic Holy spirit?



Sophia is supposed to be our soul, the piece of light stolen from heaven.  Jesus (our male spiritual form) is the holy spirit.


--------------------
Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise.  Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated.  For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.

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InvisibleCrasher
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: Buckeye Oysters]
    #14182734 - 03/25/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

whatever it's "supposed" to be, I'm pretty sure Sophia is closer to the holy spirit. You'd have to listen to her to understand.


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Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus was Adam reincarnated [Re: Buckeye Oysters]
    #14184713 - 03/25/11 11:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Buckeye Oysters said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Yeah, all good points, but Gnostic myth is just another set of myths with different conclusions. What is the practical effect? When you pray, are you going to make a disclaimer that your prayer is not intended for the Demiurge? So, a radical dualism was contrived by the Gnostics. I find the value in the Gnostics to be Gnosis proper, which is a matter of experiences which transcend the myths that point to the Gnosis. Compared with the dual possibilities of 1) denying the flesh, and 2) indulging the flesh, the Qabalists sought to transform the total being, including all aspects. The first Gnosis  of consequence is piercing the Veil of Paroketh, and being established in The Ethical Triangle, in Tiphereth, and being identified with The Witness (The Knowledge of and Conversation with One's Guardian Angel). The myths can only point, the stories are useful only to a point.




Myths/Fables are supposed to at least provide some information about the culture that wrote them.  Gnosticism, at least as what was collected in the Nag Hammadi Library, has a wide wide range of belief systems because of the lack of a single spiritual work at its beginning.  When Jesus left the cross there were literally hundreds of different christian sects that all had pieces of sayings by jesus and the apostles but know one could claim their piece was more truthful than others.  Somewhere down the line, before christ, gnostic ideas got mixed together with greek mythology for probably the same reasons... that no one group had a complete picture of the truth.

By definition gnosticism doesn't need any book or scripture.  It is learning about Jesus, God, and the universe by experiencing life and thinking upon it.  Like Jesus says, "To anyone that knocks, the door shall be open to him", and "seek and ye shall find".




Yes, well, 33 years after leaving seminary and my initial studies of Gnosticism (after having been introduced to Zosimos by Egyptologist Bob Brier), I've read and collected many of the classics on the subject (R.M. Grant, Hans Jonas, etc.), and the moderns (Elaine Pagels, the non-academics Freke & Gandy), I feel like I've exhausted my enthusiasm, after having delved into Nag Hammadi (Robinson, Layton, etc.). I'll retain the name, and stand by Gnosis/Gyan, but the myths are little better than Zen Koans, though superior to ANY literal interpretation of biblical material. Figures of mother Mary, Mary Magdalene, and Sophia, still balance the male representations of Deity on my votive table.



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