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durantz
Stranger



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Is homosexuality a mental illness?
#14167126 - 03/22/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I am proposing that homosexuality is a mental illness (this is not a new theory but it seems to have been dropped due to political correctness)
The reason for my proposal is that if homosexuality was genetic then it would have been selectively eliminated from the gene pool. And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
I believe that the upbringing of a child causes mental problems that, unless they are correctly resolved, result in the person growing up to be a homosexual. Once the homosexual begins receiving sexual gratification from the same sex they are 'rewarded' which further reinforces the homosexual behaviour.
When this process is repeated enough times the individual has become conditioned to respond sexually to the same sex in much the way that Pavlov conditioned his dogs.
Please discuss.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 3
#14167175 - 03/22/11 09:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Any discussion will require the presenting or arguments for or against - and you stated that you find that distasteful.
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sk8fast
Tripping skater



Registered: 08/02/10
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Homosexuality is not a mental illness. Other animals practice homosexuality.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: sk8fast] 1
#14167275 - 03/22/11 10:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Are you certain that no animal besides a human being may be mentally ill?
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1tokeovrtheline
life=painfully beautiful



Registered: 04/12/10
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have you ever heard of recessive traits or genetic mutations, or perhaps considering that some gay dudes throughout all these years have possibly acted straight and had kids despite being gay?
I personally think its just a psychological thing that can be genetic but probably doesn't have a specific gene or anything, its just kind of the way your personality and psychology is and how it relates to how you think about sex. it seems to me that most people attracted to guys find sex to be about power, confidence, and other things that in our culture would give them more of an attraction toward the western view of masculinity. nothing wrong with that if you ask me.
btw you should look into cultural anthropology, it takes issues like this and looks throughout the world to see if it truly is a biological thing shared throughout all humanity or if it is more a cultural idea with no scientific basis. Homosexuality and the american ideal of masculinity certainly is one of these things-did you know in the middle east "men are for pleasure" while women are for work and babies (not necessarily for everyone, but it is a very common concept)? yep a lot of those extremely religious muslims, even the terrorist types, even the level headed average citizens are into sex with dudes, obviously there is more homosexual sex in prison, some cultures the women go out and fight while the men sit around and gossip and put on makeup, etc etc etc. all these cultural observances point to homosexuality as being largely a cultural thing, yet sicence has found no biological basis for it and psychology has found no psychological explanation
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Music, business as usual Mi' spliff and Guiness as usual Highgrade we puffin as usual Fight down the system as usual The system fight we down as usual The cops dem a watch we as usual And a we a watch the cops as usual
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RileyEverleigh
Wanderer


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I have been considering this recently, though I had been thinking more of transgendered persons.Homosexuals could be a very similar thing. With so many things being considered mental illnesses nowadays, why is it we accept a person who believes they were born the wrong gender but not someone believes he is Jesus or something?
It is an interesting idea, definitely worth looking into if you don't get your head ripped off by our PC society first.
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: RileyEverleigh] 1
#14167806 - 03/23/11 12:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think it is apart of our sexuality. Some people are sexually attracted to the opposite sex, some to the same and some both. Just like some people identify as the opposite sex or with the set of genitals they were born with.
No i don't think homosexuality is a mental illness i think it is tightly wound into a persons sexuality. A persons sexuality can be complex or pretty simple IMO
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 3
#14167861 - 03/23/11 12:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Mental illness is defined by the culture and society. It used to be a mental illness, but its not anymore. In other cultures it still is.
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


Registered: 03/13/11
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: RileyEverleigh]
#14167907 - 03/23/11 12:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I beleive the biggest factors resulting in homosexuality is childhood abuse, more specifically sexual abuse.
Ever gay/lesbian person who i have talked to, has had some form of sexual abuse.
Also true for real bi-sexual women. As in women who would have an emotional and sexual relationship with another woman without it including a man, and without it being something in seeking attention.
From my experience, bi-sexual girls were often sexually abused at a younger age. And this has instilled a distrust and fear of men in them. They still physically are attracted to men. but cannot easily develop the emotional relationship with men.
So in need of emotional closeness, they often turn to a close friend, often in the same situation, and that emotional attraction is what leads to the sexual part.
you arent the first person to propose this, ive thought it for a while. I tend not to talk to most people about it though, because currently people are hypersensitive to the issue, and you will catch quick backlash from most from mentioning this theory.
http://ultimo167.wordpress.com/articles-on-men/does-child-sexual-abuse-cause-homosexuality/
this study found gay men reported being sexually abused 3 times more than straight men. other factors do affect this though because it is self reported abuse.
Now i am not claiming it can be reversed, but i do think it sometimes naturally reverses itself.
I've seen this more often though with lesbians. When their distrust of men is dealt with, they can then form emotional relations with men, and then lead to sexual relationships. And since they can then have a emotional relationship with a man, they no longer see that out in women, and desire diminishes. i doubt completely though.
The whole argument that it is genetic is completely absurd to me. If there was a gene that caused homosexuality, it would be the first to be weeded out. Genes are passed on genetically through reproduction. So how would these genes be passed on if the carriers are not reproducing?
Also, if this were true it was genetic, then children of gay men and women would be more likely to be gay. So far this has not been shown, and many straight turned gay men, who had families before coming out, are straight.
Are you doing this for a paper, or just discussion on here?
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: DieCommie]
#14167931 - 03/23/11 12:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm a little gay and I don't consider myself mentally ill
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Joolz


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ferdinando]
#14167956 - 03/23/11 12:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Its not a mental illness, its just how their brain chemistry works.
-------------------- Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14168066 - 03/23/11 01:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: I am proposing that homosexuality is a mental illness (this is not a new theory but it seems to have been dropped due to political correctness)
The reason for my proposal is that if homosexuality was genetic then it would have been selectively eliminated from the gene pool. And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
I believe that the upbringing of a child causes mental problems that, unless they are correctly resolved, result in the person growing up to be a homosexual. Once the homosexual begins receiving sexual gratification from the same sex they are 'rewarded' which further reinforces the homosexual behaviour.
When this process is repeated enough times the individual has become conditioned to respond sexually to the same sex in much the way that Pavlov conditioned his dogs.
Please discuss.
You would have to account for homosexuality within the rest of nature and you haven't.
I can only hope you are playing devils advocate here. But sexual insecurity runs very deep in humanity making the species for the most part mentally ill imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Icelander]
#14168118 - 03/23/11 01:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well I was expecting some responses but wow this is a lot to respond to so ecuse me if I miss your questions... can't answer them all.
I will respond to Icelander though cos he raises a point I was thinking about since I posted this.
Quote:
You would have to account for homosexuality within the rest of nature and you haven't.
I don't understand why it would be any different in animals... are you denying that animals have a consciousness?
I have read many of your posts and it seems that you advocate that humans are just like any other animal. So why would we be somehow different when it comes to homosexuality?
Not all animals engage in homosexuality but some do. Though I don't see how this is any evidence to support a genetic cause for it.
Is it so absurd to say that these homosexual animals are not mentally defective?
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


Registered: 03/13/11
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Icelander]
#14168126 - 03/23/11 01:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
durantz said: I am proposing that homosexuality is a mental illness (this is not a new theory but it seems to have been dropped due to political correctness)
The reason for my proposal is that if homosexuality was genetic then it would have been selectively eliminated from the gene pool. And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
I believe that the upbringing of a child causes mental problems that, unless they are correctly resolved, result in the person growing up to be a homosexual. Once the homosexual begins receiving sexual gratification from the same sex they are 'rewarded' which further reinforces the homosexual behaviour.
When this process is repeated enough times the individual has become conditioned to respond sexually to the same sex in much the way that Pavlov conditioned his dogs.
Please discuss.
You would have to account for homosexuality within the rest of nature and you haven't.
I can only hope you are playing devils advocate here. But sexual insecurity runs very deep in humanity making the species for the most part mentally ill imo.
From what I have searched. there is no TRUE homosexuality in nature. as in the creature having no desire to mate. most of the time it is sexual behavior with both males and females, or homosexual behavior in captivity, or when they can not find a mate.
So they are actually bisexual.
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14168136 - 03/23/11 01:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah and these so called 'homosexual' animals don't go around differentiating themselves from the rest of the species like human homosexuals do...
Icelander what has this got to do with sexual reproduction?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: DieCommie]
#14168405 - 03/23/11 04:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said: From what I have searched. there is no TRUE homosexuality in nature. as in the creature having no desire to mate.
Sexuality is not only defined as the desire to mate.
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durantz said: So they are actually bisexual.
But they exhibit homosexual behavior, regardless of whether or not they also exhibit heterosexual behavior.
Quote:
durantz said:
Quote:
You would have to account for homosexuality within the rest of nature and you haven't.
I don't understand why it would be any different in animals...
He didn't say that at all, he's saying that homosexuality is natural for some creatures.
Quote:
durantz said: So why would we be somehow different when it comes to homosexuality?
He's not speaking of a difference, he's speaking of a similarity between humans and other animals--some animals exhibit homosexual behavior, just like some humans do.
Quote:
DieCommie said: Mental illness is defined by the culture and society. It used to be a mental illness, but its not anymore. In other cultures it still is.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14168424 - 03/23/11 04:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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thanks for clearing that up
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 1
#14168435 - 03/23/11 05:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
More retarded nonsense coming from you--there are many conditions that are genetically caused which only approximately 10% of the population is afflicted with. To say that just because only 10% of the population has a certain condition is indicative of that condition not being genetically caused is fucking retarded.
I can't believe that you consider yourself to be "educated" when you say shit like this, and make retarded-ass threads like these; I'm not sure if I should laugh, or cry.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14168437 - 03/23/11 05:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said:
The reason for my proposal is that if homosexuality was genetic then it would have been selectively eliminated from the gene pool. And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
There's a genetic cause for having hands, and guess what: a lot more than 10% of the people have them. Your argument regarding genetic cause isn't compatible with reality: a) you fail to say how homosexuality would be eliminated from the gene pool if it were genetically caused, b) this kinda of argument seems to defy the observance of the complexisty of genetic expression other than simple one gene for one dominant trait.
Quote:
sk8fast said: Homosexuality is not a mental illness. Other animals practice homosexuality.
What does your argument have to do with your conclusion? Seems a nonsequitar. Animals kill people and eat them too: does that mean my neighbor Hannibal Lector isn't mentally ill?
Quote:
durantz said:
Is it so absurd to say that these homosexual animals are not mentally defective?
What does it matter? Whether its absurd or not has nothing to do with whether you are correct or not.
What are you defining mental illness to be? Discussions of such in this forum often suffer from top-secret special definitions that people use: i.e. some of the responders apparently define mental illness such that it excludes behaviors other animals exhibit 
edit:
Quote:
DieCommie said: Mental illness is defined by the culture and society. It used to be a mental illness, but its not anymore. In other cultures it still is.
I disagree with this. While fundamentally this is correct in practice, obviously, the definition of mental illness is definite enough that it is able to be defined irrespective of a particular culture's norms.
Mental illness is definately culturally relative, but that doesn't mean they need to be culturally defined, or are. Culture would seem only able to provide a cause of mental illness-mimicking behavior that is not caused by the person's abnormal nature but by perfectly normal adhearance to social or cultural customs, norms (religious customs et cet). Its hard to see how culture could make some behavior mentally ill when it is not so in the abstract. Even in the religious false-positive example, it is not the culture that 'excuses' the behavior, but meerly the cause of behavior that if it was solely of personal manifestation it might represent divergant pathological behavior.
Are you saying homosexuality, for example, is a valid mental illness in a particular culture? Its hard for me to see how that could be so, provided we're speaking of abnormal pathological behavior, which I'd imagine to be a good definition of mental illness
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: johnm214]
#14168458 - 03/23/11 05:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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word is a word just wanted to fit some illumination in here
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ferdinando]
#14168470 - 03/23/11 05:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferdinando said: word is a word
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14168479 - 03/23/11 05:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14168491 - 03/23/11 05:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said: I beleive the biggest factors resulting in homosexuality is childhood abuse, more specifically sexual abuse.
Ever gay/lesbian person who i have talked to, has had some form of sexual abuse.
Many straight people have been sexually abused as well. 
Quote:
BeverageFace said: From my experience, bi-sexual girls were often sexually abused at a younger age. And this has instilled a distrust and fear of men in them. They still physically are attracted to men.
Then WTF is your point?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: So in need of emotional closeness, they often turn to a close friend, often in the same situation, and that emotional attraction is what leads to the sexual part.
you arent the first person to propose this, ive thought it for a while. I tend not to talk to most people about it though, because currently people are hypersensitive to the issue, and you will catch quick backlash from most from mentioning this theory.
It's a retarded theory based on irrational emotions--there is no such thing as a healthy sexual orientation that applies to all people, to suggest such a thing is extremely ridiculous.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: http://ultimo167.wordpress.com/articles-on-men/does-child-sexual-abuse-cause-homosexuality/
this study found gay men reported being sexually abused 3 times more than straight men. other factors do affect this though because it is self reported abuse.
This study is worthless in terms if determining whether homosexuality is natural among the entire human species because its test subjects belong to one single culture--homosexuality has been embraced by many cultures, and many people in such cultures who engaged in homosexual behavior did not do so as a result of being "sexually abused".
Also, the term "sexual abuse" is not very concrete (sometimes consensual sexual acts are considered abusive)--I'd like to know precisely what is implied in that study by that term.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Now i am not claiming it can be reversed, but i do think it sometimes naturally reverses itself.
Pretty much like any preference, I guess.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: I've seen this more often though with lesbians. When their distrust of men is dealt with, they can then form emotional relations with men, and then lead to sexual relationships. And since they can then have a emotional relationship with a man, they no longer see that out in women, and desire diminishes. i doubt completely though.
This is fucking retarded--you said earlier that such women are still sexually attracted to men, even though they do not desire to have an emotional connection with them. How the fuck does this suggest that their abuse caused them to be not be sexually attracted to men, and to be sexually attracted to women instead?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: The whole argument that it is genetic is completely absurd to me. If there was a gene that caused homosexuality, it would be the first to be weeded out.
I guess it's not possible for the genes which are responsible for homosexuality to exist if scientists haven't found them yet. 
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Genes are passed on genetically through reproduction. So how would these genes be passed on if the carriers are not reproducing?

Never heard of genotypes, huh?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Also, if this were true it was genetic, then children of gay men and women would be more likely to be gay.

Never heard of genotypes, huh?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: ...many straight turned gay men, who had families before coming out, are straight.
Sexuality is a continuum, and often changes over time--do you have a point?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14168523 - 03/23/11 06:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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who peed on your sugar food?
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14168528 - 03/23/11 06:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
durantz said: I am proposing that homosexuality is a mental illness (this is not a new theory but it seems to have been dropped due to political correctness)
The reason for my proposal is that if homosexuality was genetic then it would have been selectively eliminated from the gene pool. And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
I believe that the upbringing of a child causes mental problems that, unless they are correctly resolved, result in the person growing up to be a homosexual. Once the homosexual begins receiving sexual gratification from the same sex they are 'rewarded' which further reinforces the homosexual behaviour.
When this process is repeated enough times the individual has become conditioned to respond sexually to the same sex in much the way that Pavlov conditioned his dogs.
Please discuss.
You would have to account for homosexuality within the rest of nature and you haven't.
I can only hope you are playing devils advocate here. But sexual insecurity runs very deep in humanity making the species for the most part mentally ill imo.
From what I have searched. there is no TRUE homosexuality in nature. as in the creature having no desire to mate. most of the time it is sexual behavior with both males and females, or homosexual behavior in captivity, or when they can not find a mate.
So they are actually bisexual.
True bisexuality is common in nature. Animals could not reproduce without bisexuality.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14168530 - 03/23/11 06:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: Yeah and these so called 'homosexual' animals don't go around differentiating themselves from the rest of the species like human homosexuals do...
Icelander what has this got to do with sexual reproduction?
It has little to do with reproduction and a lot to do with sexual expression.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ferdinando]
#14168546 - 03/23/11 06:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferdinando said: who peed on your sugar food?
Some faggot.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14168573 - 03/23/11 06:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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im gay but i always make sure i cum into a cup and pour it in the nearest female so i am not classified by anyone as mentally ill
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: quinn]
#14168590 - 03/23/11 06:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Use a funnel, they're more effective than cups for that purpose--I speak from extensive experience here.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: quinn]
#14168640 - 03/23/11 07:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said: im gay but i always make sure i cum into a cup and pour it in the nearest female so i am not classified by anyone as mentally ill 
I'm not saying that it's the fault of the homosexual that they have the problem.
That would be like saying that it's a child's fault they are mentally ill because someone sexually abused them...
I should probably say that homosexuals are 'mentally defective' rather than 'mentally ill'. I simply mean this in the sense that homosexual psychology is pathological. But this does not mean that they are somehow less of a person or that they are 'fucked up'. It simply means that their psychological characteristics deviate from the norm in a negative way.
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Poid
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Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14168643 - 03/23/11 07:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: I simply mean this in the sense that homosexual psychology is pathological.
Baseless opinions are useless in this forum.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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quinn
some kinda love


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Posts: 6,799
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14168665 - 03/23/11 07:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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humans are... fucked up. the most sane thing for them to do right now would be voluntary extinction. its for the best. homos are just one step ahead of the game.
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 2
#14168753 - 03/23/11 08:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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The reason for my proposal is that if homosexuality was genetic then it would have been selectively eliminated from the gene pool. And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
This would only be true if there were no or negative benefits conferred by it to the overall population. But according to the so-called "Gay Uncle" theory, by providing resources to help care for, protect, and feed a sibling's child, a gay relative can further the family's genetics through the non-gay offspring. It's a variation on Kin Selection theory which is well established.
And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
An estimated 10% of the population likes pickles. It is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this. And clearly they're mentally ill as no one in their right mind would eat a pickle. 
From what I have searched. there is no TRUE homosexuality in nature.
I had a lesbian dog when I was a kid. She wanted nothing to do with male dogs and would sniff and hump female dogs at every opportunity. From what I saw, she was fully homosexual.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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durantz
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Diploid]
#14168790 - 03/23/11 08:47 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
An estimated 10% of the population likes pickles. It is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this. And clearly they're mentally ill as no one in their right mind would eat a pickle.
I'm not saying that because only 10% of the population are homosexual that it is a mental disorder...
I'm saying that 10% of the population is too large of a number for the issue to be genetic! Hermaphrodites make up only around .05% of the population and there is a well established genetic cause for this. But 10% is wayyy too large considering that the majority of homosexuals don't reproduce.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14168821 - 03/23/11 08:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's possible that some people are born with the inclination towards homosexuality, and others develop it later in their lives for reasons unrelated to genetics.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14168843 - 03/23/11 09:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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it simply means that their psychological characteristics deviate from the norm in a negative way.
Considering human overpopulation and resource consumption I don't see how you can use the word "negative"?
IMO they are almost the only ones acting to save humanity from it's foolishness.
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Icelander]
#14168859 - 03/23/11 09:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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hey i already said that!
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Rahz
Alive Again


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Posts: 9,230
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14168860 - 03/23/11 09:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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From what I understand, the majority of homos are bi. Gay people produce offspring at a slightly higher rate than straight people, but this is offset by a shorter than average lifespan. Their propensity to reproduce insures their gay genes are passed on. This is theory of course, as gay genes haven't been proven yet.
Check out the book "Sperm Wars" by Robin Baker.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Rahz]
#14168869 - 03/23/11 09:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Gay people produce offspring at a slightly higher rate than straight people, but this is offset by a shorter than average lifespan.
I don't think that's true.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: quinn]
#14168879 - 03/23/11 09:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said: hey i already said that! 
Great minds think alike.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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quinn
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Icelander]
#14168887 - 03/23/11 09:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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i'll drink to that
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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jebustrist
Stranger


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: quinn]
#14168977 - 03/23/11 09:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Heterosexuality might be the disease...we're certainly multiplying like some sort of pathogen that is quickly working through it's resources.
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Rahz
Alive Again


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Posts: 9,230
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Diploid]
#14168988 - 03/23/11 09:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Gay people produce offspring at a slightly higher rate than straight people, but this is offset by a shorter than average lifespan.
I don't think that's true.
The information in his book was a product of his own research, though he doesn't provide raw data.
Perhaps you are right. Baker has credentials, but his work isn't without controversy.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Cups
technically "here"


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Rahz]
#14169045 - 03/23/11 10:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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What I do think it will be interesting to see where gayness goes in the few hundred years. Too bad I can't stay alive long enough to see...
Up until very recently there was so much social pressure to be straight that gay people married and had kids anyway.
This has changed a lot and will continue to...at least until the muslims take over.
So, if the gay people of the world are free to marry each other and not have kids...and there is a still a bumper crop of new gay kids being born each year to "straight" parents...then what is making them gay?
The argument from the gay camp has been forever that being gay is not a choice. If it's not genetics...and it's not a choice...then WTF is it?
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Poid
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Cups]
#14169093 - 03/23/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said: The argument from the gay camp has been forever that being gay is not a choice. If it's not genetics...and it's not a choice...then WTF is it?
A curse from God.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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mcganky
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14169142 - 03/23/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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homosexuality CAN be a symptom of a mental illness, but the act or predilection doesn't qualify as such.
it CAN stem from abuse, but not always (or even mostly).
hell, i'm not even sure what gay IS. i've been with men and women both (although i prefer women), but i don't feel particularly gay. hell, compared to some of my more homophobic peers, i'm a fucking stud lumberjack military badass, but i'd be sweet with a cute guy if the mood struck me.
homosexuality is many things, i guess is the point. it's an act, a set of behaviors, or it can be a reactionary stance. i feel it's just one of many somewhat pointless things humans do, like listen to music, give ourselves 'the stranger', or have a favorite color. it could be seen as a facet of a mental illness in certain situations, though, i'd say.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: mcganky]
#14169154 - 03/23/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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How exactly is homosexuality a mental illness? I don't think anyone has actually stated this explicitly.
Could that statement perhaps be a way of saying "I don't like these people because they're different, therefore there must be something wrong with them"?
--------------------
Edited by learningtofly (03/23/11 10:28 AM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: learningtofly]
#14169195 - 03/23/11 10:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said: How exactly is homosexuality a mental illness? I don't think anyone has actually stated this explicitly.
Could that statement perhaps be a way of saying "I don't like these people because they're different, therefore there must be something wrong with them"?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BeverageFace
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14169484 - 03/23/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Poid. Go try again to what i posted with some actual arguments, and then we will talk.\
Because already your talk is ignorant. You posted twice about genotypes being the reason homosexuality could be genetic.
However, homosexuals do not often reproduce, which would mean their genes are not passed on. Therefor, there is no genotypes to speak of, because the reproduction process is not happenning.
ALSO, you made the genotype claim again to my mention that when gay men reproduce, they dont produce gay children, as one would expect to see at a higher rate than by straight men, if it were genetic.
So the fact that gay men don't produce gay babies anymore than a straight man, further shows in has nothing to do with genotypes.
Your claims are ridiculous, they dont make sense, and if you want to have a discussion like an adult, then make your position clear.
All you have done so far is "attempt" to attack my position, without making solid claims, or even defining what your position is.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14169535 - 03/23/11 11:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said: Poid. Go try again to what i posted with some actual arguments, and then we will talk.\
Because already your talk is ignorant. You posted twice about genotypes being the reason homosexuality could be genetic.
However, homosexuals do not often reproduce, which would mean their genes are not passed on. Therefor, there is no genotypes to speak of, because the reproduction process is not happenning.

It could be that there are gay genes that exist in both gays and straights which aren't always expressed, and are passed on when people reproduce.
Phenotype - Wikipedia
Quote:
The genotype of an organism is the inherited instructions it carries within its genetic code. Not all organisms with the same genotype look or act the same way because appearance and behavior are modified by environmental and developmental conditions. Similarly, not all organisms that look alike necessarily have the same genotype.
Phenotypes result from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and the interactions between the two.
Not all genotypes are expressed, this is like 7th grade science shit.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: ALSO, you made the genotype claim again to my mention that when gay men reproduce, they dont produce gay children, as one would expect to see at a higher rate than by straight men, if it were genetic.
It could be that both straight and gay people have this "gay gene", and that it is only phenotypically expressed in gays; is this really that hard to comprehend, or do I need to elaborate further?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: So the fact that gay men don't produce gay babies anymore than a straight man, further shows in has nothing to do with genotypes.
No it doesn't.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/23/11 12:06 PM)
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14169612 - 03/23/11 12:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: Yeah and these so called 'homosexual' animals don't go around differentiating themselves from the rest of the species like human homosexuals do...
Not all gay people "come out", or feel the need to tell everyone they know. And there are plenty of insecure straight people who will scream about how straight they are. And mostly all humans try to stand out in some form.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14169625 - 03/23/11 12:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's blatantly obvious that he just has some personal issues with homosexuality.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14169657 - 03/23/11 12:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Poid. Go try again to what i posted with some actual arguments, and then we will talk.\
Because already your talk is ignorant. You posted twice about genotypes being the reason homosexuality could be genetic.
However, homosexuals do not often reproduce, which would mean their genes are not passed on. Therefor, there is no genotypes to speak of, because the reproduction process is not happenning.

It could be that there are gay genes that exist in both gays and straights which aren't always expressed, and are passed on when people reproduce.
Phenotype - Wikipedia
Quote:
The genotype of an organism is the inherited instructions it carries within its genetic code. Not all organisms with the same genotype look or act the same way because appearance and behavior are modified by environmental and developmental conditions. Similarly, not all organisms that look alike necessarily have the same genotype.
Phenotypes result from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and the interactions between the two.
Not all genotypes are expressed, this is like 7th grade science shit.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: ALSO, you made the genotype claim again to my mention that when gay men reproduce, they dont produce gay children, as one would expect to see at a higher rate than by straight men, if it were genetic.
It could be that both straight and gay people have this "gay gene", and that it is only phenotypically expressed in gays; is this really that hard to comprehend, or do I need to elaborate further?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: So the fact that gay men don't produce gay babies anymore than a straight man, further shows in has nothing to do with genotypes.
No it doesn't.
Then why are identical twins where one is gay, the other is straight?
According to you, if it is genetic, and expressed like a phenotype the same as other genes. Then ALL identical twins where there is one homosexual twin, the other MUST be.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14169666 - 03/23/11 12:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said: Then why are identical twins where one is gay, the other is straight?
Not all organisms with the same genotype look or act the same way because appearance and behavior are modified by environmental and developmental conditions.
On rare occasions, identical twins may express different phenotypes...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid] 1
#14169701 - 03/23/11 12:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ah, Poid, don't forget epigenetics either!
Quote:
In biology, and specifically genetics, epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in phenotype (appearance) or gene expression caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence, hence the name epi- (Greek: επί- over, above) -genetics. These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations. However, there is no change in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism; instead, non-genetic factors cause the organism's genes to behave (or "express themselves") differently.
--------------------
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BeverageFace
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14169724 - 03/23/11 12:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Then why are identical twins where one is gay, the other is straight?
Not all organisms with the same genotype look or act the same way because appearance and behavior are modified by environmental and developmental conditions.
On rare occasions, identical twins may express different phenotypes...
exactly poid. you even just said. appearance and behavior is modified by environmental and developmental conditions. You even bolded and underlined it.
That is what is being proposed here. That homosexuality is environmental. and that is what you just conceded.
Thanks for supporting my view.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace] 1
#14169751 - 03/23/11 12:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Then why are identical twins where one is gay, the other is straight?
Not all organisms with the same genotype look or act the same way because appearance and behavior are modified by environmental and developmental conditions.
On rare occasions, identical twins may express different phenotypes...
exactly poid. you even just said. appearance and behavior is modified by environmental and developmental conditions.
They are both also genetically influenced.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: That is what is being proposed here. That homosexuality is environmental. and that is what you just conceded.
Ah, so homosexuality has to either be environmentally influenced, or genetically influenced, and cannot be both? False dichotomy much? Like, very much?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Thanks for supporting my view.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Ferdinando


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Posts: 3,664
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: learningtofly]
#14169758 - 03/23/11 12:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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would you choose to be the one to make the difference between overpopulated and suitably populated? there is essentially nothing negative about gayness
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
Edited by Ferdinando (03/23/11 12:36 PM)
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mcganky
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: learningtofly]
#14169759 - 03/23/11 12:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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on a somewhat related note, if genetics (specifically epigenetics) play a role in sexual orientation, i'd imagine they'd have an impact on such phenomenon such as sociopathy, some psychopathy, maybe even autism.
maybe some of these things play a role in 'thinning the herd' when an epigenetic mechanism kicks in. perhaps this function has survived because although it allows for an individual to be evolutionarily crippled in many ways, a thinner, fitter herd is better for the evolution of the species as a whole.
in other words, maybe our population density and seemingly perfect predator free world triggers us to become evolutionarily competitive again through novel ways.
as long as we're all kind of pulling things out of our collective asses, that could start explaining why a characteristic that seems like a genetic liability could persist so long and be so common.
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Poid
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: mcganky]
#14169776 - 03/23/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
mcganky said: in other words, maybe our population density and seemingly perfect predator free world...
Please elaborate on the emboldened section, thanks.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BeverageFace
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14169796 - 03/23/11 12:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Studies have shown that gay men have a smaller hypothalamus than straight men. http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1815538,00.html
studies have also shown that childhood sexual abuse causes hypothalamus regulation disorders. http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/78/2/249
so what proof are you providing to show there is a "gay gene"? Is that even your stance anymore? You already conceded that it is environmental if identical twins can have one gay, one straight. Remember? the whole part you bolded and underlined?
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mcganky
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14169808 - 03/23/11 12:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
mcganky said: in other words, maybe our population density and seemingly perfect predator free world...
Please elaborate on the emboldened section, thanks.
the world is getting safer for homo sapiens as a whole, as evidenced by our booming population.
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Poid
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14169817 - 03/23/11 12:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said: so what proof are you providing to show there is a "gay gene"? Is that even your stance anymore?

Was that ever my stance? All I'm doing is rebutting your point (and its supporting "evidence") that homosexuality is not genetic, I'm not saying that it definitely is--the burden of proof is on you, it's not up to me to prove that homosexuality is genetic.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: You already conceded that it is environmental if identical twins can have one gay, one straight. Remember? the whole part you bolded and underlined?
So what do you think this means?
I said it can be environmental; I provided evidence which shows that identical twins can have different phenotypes.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: mcganky]
#14169838 - 03/23/11 12:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
mcganky said:
Quote:
Poid said:
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mcganky said: in other words, maybe our population density and seemingly perfect predator free world...
Please elaborate on the emboldened section, thanks.
the world is getting safer for homo sapiens as a whole, as evidenced by our booming population.
How is that in any way evidence that the world is getting safer for us?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid] 1
#14169842 - 03/23/11 12:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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If homosexuality is so natural, why don't forest animals have leather bars?
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mcganky
Beardo Weirdo

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 59
Loc: FL
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14169868 - 03/23/11 12:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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well, i'd have to say that when it's really dangerous out there (animals, dying of toothaches, walking everywhere, no refrigeration, etc) there doesn't seem to be as many humans on the earth.
since basic knowledge has made it's way to even the third world, and most folks have guns these days, death by lion is rare. death by toothache is rare with a little penicillin. we can avoid the snakes by driving, and eat decent food, most of us. third world food is still better than the first world's food a couple of hundred years ago, thanks to food storage technologies.
so there's a lot more of us, and we're fatter and weaker and dumber than ever. basically. a chart line of human population goes upward, except for a few little glitches like the plague.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Forest animals just don't have gay genes. 
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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because they don't need leather bars to be gay think before you post
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ferdinando] 1
#14169906 - 03/23/11 12:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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What - and break a time-honored PSP tradition?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: mcganky]
#14169922 - 03/23/11 01:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
mcganky said: well, i'd have to say that when it's really dangerous out there (animals, dying of toothaches, walking everywhere, no refrigeration, etc) there doesn't seem to be as many humans on the earth.
So this means that the more people there are, the safer we are, without limit? 
Quote:
mcganky said: since basic knowledge has made it's way to even the third world, and most folks have guns these days, death by lion is rare. death by toothache is rare with a little penicillin. we can avoid the snakes by driving, and eat decent food, most of us. third world food is still better than the first world's food a couple of hundred years ago, thanks to food storage technologies.
So, we can still have all those technologies and also have less people--and we'd be safer IMO because, as you seem to be ignoring for some reason, people can be pretty fucking dangerous.
Quote:
mcganky said: so there's a lot more of us, and we're fatter and weaker and dumber than ever.
Ah, so we've developed all this sophisticated technology that has never been developed before, and this means we're dumber than ever?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ferdinando]
#14169927 - 03/23/11 01:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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 _____
what if there was a kind of magnet that was ineffective until a certain point of closeness
think think.. what if you normally don't notice the effect what if some animals were not able to notice it ever
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
Edited by Ferdinando (03/23/11 01:03 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid] 1
#14169934 - 03/23/11 01:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Side question: do gay hamsters use humans as sex toys?
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14169936 - 03/23/11 01:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: andrewss]
#14169964 - 03/23/11 01:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Side question: do gay hamsters use humans as sex toys?
No, but bisexual ones have been proven by science to have some sort of inexplicable sexual affinity for human anal cavities. 
Quote:
andrewss said:

-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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mcganky
Beardo Weirdo

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 59
Loc: FL
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14169999 - 03/23/11 01:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
mcganky said: well, i'd have to say that when it's really dangerous out there (animals, dying of toothaches, walking everywhere, no refrigeration, etc) there doesn't seem to be as many humans on the earth.
So this means that the more people there are, the safer we are, without limit? 
Quote:
mcganky said: since basic knowledge has made it's way to even the third world, and most folks have guns these days, death by lion is rare. death by toothache is rare with a little penicillin. we can avoid the snakes by driving, and eat decent food, most of us. third world food is still better than the first world's food a couple of hundred years ago, thanks to food storage technologies.
So, we can still have all those technologies and also have less people--and we'd be safer IMO because, as you seem to be ignoring for some reason, people can be pretty fucking dangerous.
Quote:
mcganky said: so there's a lot more of us, and we're fatter and weaker and dumber than ever.
Ah, so we've developed all this sophisticated technology that has never been developed before, and this means we're dumber than ever? 
in order:
1. i'm sure there's a limit. like i said, maybe we limit ourselves in such ways as homosexuality, even murder. doesn't seem to matter, though, we keep proliferating, at least for now.
2. i'm not ignoring murders, but there's not enough homicide to level out the graph. there's not enough of anything to level out the graph.
3. in many ways, yes. in a purely darwinian sense, if the dumb are allowed to breed, we become dumber because lack of intellectual prowess is no longer an impediment to survival/reproduction.
please re-read my original out-of-my-ass theory, you seem to have taken much of it out of the context i gave it. no offense.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: mcganky]
#14170004 - 03/23/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
mcganky said: well, i'd have to say that when it's really dangerous out there (animals, dying of toothaches, walking everywhere, no refrigeration, etc) there doesn't seem to be as many humans on the earth.
since basic knowledge has made it's way to even the third world, and most folks have guns these days, death by lion is rare. death by toothache is rare with a little penicillin. we can avoid the snakes by driving, and eat decent food, most of us. third world food is still better than the first world's food a couple of hundred years ago, thanks to food storage technologies.
so there's a lot more of us, and we're fatter and weaker and dumber than ever. basically. a chart line of human population goes upward, except for a few little glitches like the plague.
First/Second/Third world labels only made sense in the cold war and even then it was pretty fucked up to use
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 216
Loc: ontario, canada
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: learningtofly]
#14170061 - 03/23/11 01:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Poid. you are unbearable. I now remember why so many people hate you.
If you dont have a stance on this topic, why are you posting? To waste my time arguing against your points that even contradict themselves?
Me: possible cause is sexual abuse you: no, its genetics look! me: if it were genetic it wouldnt be carried forth since carriers in nature wouldnt reproduce, and the ones who nowadays do reproduce, dont produce gay children any more than straights. you: PHENOTYPES me: ok, then why arent identical twins always either both gay, or both straight? you: PHENOTYPES, and environmental factors.
durp, environmental factors like sexual abuse???
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14170114 - 03/23/11 01:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Studies have shown that gay men have a smaller hypothalamus than straight men.
I wonder if one of those pump thingies would help.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14170125 - 03/23/11 01:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said: If you dont have a stance on this topic, why are you posting?

My position is that it's possible for there to be a "gay gene", not that there definitely is one; reading comprehension is a must if you desire to post here.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Me: possible cause is sexual abuse you: no, its genetics look!
Never said that, or disagreed that sometimes sexual abuse may cause it. 
Quote:
BeverageFace said: me: if it were genetic it wouldnt be carried forth since carriers in nature wouldnt reproduce, and the ones who nowadays do reproduce, dont produce gay children any more than straights. you: PHENOTYPES
I responded with 'genotypes' when you first said this--are you high, or do you always have this much difficulty with short-term memory?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: me: ok, then why arent identical twins always either both gay, or both straight? you: PHENOTYPES, and environmental factors.
I provided evidence that proves that identical twins can sometimes have different phenotypes--why is this so frustrating for you? I have no idea why it's so hard for you to accept that you're wrong in saying that homosexuality is definitely not genetically caused, especially after what you thought was evidence for this position has been debunked, but I think it has a lot to do with Icelander's "Wrong" thread. 
Quote:
BeverageFace said: durp, environmental factors like sexual abuse???

Again, I never said that sexual abuse definitely cannot influence one's sexual orientation--where you're pulling this crap out of is extremely mysterious to me.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14170130 - 03/23/11 01:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I now remember why so many people hate you.
Because you started taking gingko biloba supplements and stopped drinking?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Haha, I get it.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14170193 - 03/23/11 01:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's more fun if I don't make it too obvious.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Obvious obviousness is obvious, Cptn. Obvious.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14170228 - 03/23/11 01:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I was hoping to have gotten a promotion by now.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Well, if it matters, I can offer you one of my highly-coveted awards:
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 216
Loc: ontario, canada
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14170265 - 03/23/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
BeverageFace said: If you dont have a stance on this topic, why are you posting?

My position is that it's possible for there to be a "gay gene", not that there definitely is one; reading comprehension is a must if you desire to post here.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Me: possible cause is sexual abuse you: no, its genetics look!
Never said that, or disagreed that sometimes sexual abuse may cause it. 
Quote:
BeverageFace said: me: if it were genetic it wouldnt be carried forth since carriers in nature wouldnt reproduce, and the ones who nowadays do reproduce, dont produce gay children any more than straights. you: PHENOTYPES
I responded with 'genotypes' when you first said this--are you high, or do you always have this much difficulty with short-term memory?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: me: ok, then why arent identical twins always either both gay, or both straight? you: PHENOTYPES, and environmental factors.
I provided evidence that proves that identical twins can sometimes have different phenotypes--why is this so frustrating for you? I have no idea why it's so hard for you to accept that you're wrong in saying that homosexuality is definitely not genetically caused, especially after what you thought was evidence for this position has been debunked, but I think it has a lot to do with Icelander's "Wrong" thread. 
Quote:
BeverageFace said: durp, environmental factors like sexual abuse???

Again, I never said that sexual abuse definitely cannot influence one's sexual orientation--where you're pulling this crap out of is extremely mysterious to me. 
So, you say you are not disagreeing with my proposed theory, and you are saying you don't have a theory of cause, yourself.
So essentially you are talking for the sake of talking. Maybe you should leave the talking to people who actually have an opinion on the topic.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14170290 - 03/23/11 01:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said: So, you say you are not disagreeing with my proposed theory, and you are saying you don't have a theory of cause, yourself.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong here, but weren't you claiming that there is no genetic basis for homosexuality?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: So essentially you are talking for the sake of talking. Maybe you should leave the talking to people who actually have an opinion on the topic.
My opinion is that there is not enough evidence to establish that homosexuality is definitely not genetically influenced; also, you were making it seem like sexual abuse is a major cause for homosexuality, and I was disagreeing with that.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 216
Loc: ontario, canada
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14170393 - 03/23/11 02:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
BeverageFace said: So, you say you are not disagreeing with my proposed theory, and you are saying you don't have a theory of cause, yourself.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong here, but weren't you claiming that there is no genetic basis for homosexuality?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: So essentially you are talking for the sake of talking. Maybe you should leave the talking to people who actually have an opinion on the topic.
My opinion is that there is not enough evidence to establish that homosexuality is definitely not genetically influenced; also, you were making it seem like sexual abuse is a major cause for homosexuality, and I was disagreeing with that.
So where were your points against sexual abuse being a cause, that werent from the genetic standpoint?
You said "well straight guys get abused too"
Except that doesn't mean it doesnt cause people to become homosexual.
no wonder you are ignored by almost 70 people. it takes how many posts for you to clearly state what your position on the topic is?
you are clearly not worth talking to.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace] 1
#14170447 - 03/23/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said: So where were your points against sexual abuse being a cause, that werent from the genetic standpoint?
I didn't make any points against sexual abuse being a cause--you mentioned that sexual abuse is a cause, and I assumed that you believe that it is a primary cause. I do agree that it is sometimes a cause, but don't believe that it is a primary cause; this is the point I was making.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: You said "well straight guys get abused too"
Except that doesn't mean it doesnt cause people to become homosexual.
That's not what I implied--I thought your point in mentioning that abuse causes homosexuality was to demonstrate that homosexuality is only caused by abuse, and abuse necessarily causes homosexuality. Since abuse isn't always correlated with homosexuality, what makes you think that they are causally connected?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: no wonder you are ignored by almost 70 people. it takes how many posts for you to clearly state what your position on the topic is?
It's been clear since my first post, you just have a lot of trouble with comprehending it, along with several other things (like how to debate, for example). This debate would have gone a lot smoother if you actually responded to each of my points individually, and didn't just quote my entire post and wrote a consolidated response under it.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: you are clearly not worth talking to.
OK, then fuck off? 
I don't understand why you're getting so emotional about this--it's just a debate, there is no reason to get mad and act like a stupid child. Unless, of course, you are an emotional/psychological mess, then you have plenty of reason!
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 216
Loc: ontario, canada
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14170483 - 03/23/11 02:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
BeverageFace said: So where were your points against sexual abuse being a cause, that werent from the genetic standpoint?
I didn't make any points against sexual abuse being a cause--you mentioned that sexual abuse is a cause, and I assumed that you believe that it is a primary cause. I do agree that it is sometimes a cause, but don't believe that it is a primary cause; this is the point I was making.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: You said "well straight guys get abused too"
Except that doesn't mean it doesnt cause people to become homosexual.
That's not what I implied--I thought your point in mentioning that abuse causes homosexuality was to demonstrate that homosexuality is only caused by abuse, and abuse necessarily causes homosexuality. Since abuse isn't always correlated with homosexuality, what makes you think that they are causally connected?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: no wonder you are ignored by almost 70 people. it takes how many posts for you to clearly state what your position on the topic is?
It's been clear since my first post, you just have a lot of trouble with comprehending it, along with several other things (like how to debate, for example). This debate would have gone a lot smoother if you actually responded to each of my points individually, and didn't just quote my entire post and wrote a consolidated response under it.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: you are clearly not worth talking to.
OK, then fuck off? 
I don't understand why you're getting so emotional about this--it's just a debate, there is no reason to get mad and act like a stupid child. Unless, of course, you are an emotional/psychological mess, then you have plenty of reason! 
poid. i remember when you went around and said this about anyone who showed you up. your ratings are full of it. dont forget your melt.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace] 1
#14170505 - 03/23/11 02:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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WTF are you talking about, when did I say this to anyone who "showed me up"? What "melt"? Whose fucking puppet are you, huh? 
If you really hate me so much, then maybe we can have a little meeting IRL to settle this--what do you say?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid] 1
#14170827 - 03/23/11 03:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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"I broke his hands with my face!"
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 1
#14170942 - 03/23/11 03:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: I am proposing that homosexuality is a mental illness (this is not a new theory but it seems to have been dropped due to political correctness)
The reason for my proposal is that if homosexuality was genetic then it would have been selectively eliminated from the gene pool. And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
I believe that the upbringing of a child causes mental problems that, unless they are correctly resolved, result in the person growing up to be a homosexual. Once the homosexual begins receiving sexual gratification from the same sex they are 'rewarded' which further reinforces the homosexual behaviour.
When this process is repeated enough times the individual has become conditioned to respond sexually to the same sex in much the way that Pavlov conditioned his dogs.
Please discuss.
Quote:
durantz said: I believe
And i believe that santa poops blood.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14171004 - 03/23/11 03:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Poid. you are unbearable. I now remember why so many people hate you.
You need to stick this crap where the sun don't shine and stick to the topic. It's easy to see your ratings aren't winning any popularity contest. stfu
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Icelander]
#14171101 - 03/23/11 04:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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He's banned already, I think he was a puppet.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant



Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Icelander]
#14171736 - 03/23/11 06:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
You would have to account for homosexuality within the rest of nature and you haven't.
not to mention within our biological kingdom, there's a wide range of variation in sexual chromosomes, more diverse than the strict XX XY female-male dichotomy. i've read that about every one in 100 people are born with anatomically ambiguous genitalia... would love to know how the OP dictates the sanity of their sexual preferences (or even gender identity for that matter).
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#14171852 - 03/23/11 06:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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CosmicJoke said: would love to know how the OP dictates the sanity of their sexual preferences (or even gender identity for that matter).
Pretty much, if you don't whack it to the same shit he does, you're mentally ill.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14171928 - 03/23/11 06:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I note that despite having asked pages ago, neither the original poster nor anyone else has ever demonstrates how homosexuality is even pathological, much less a mental illness.
Also: lots of people are confusing how genetics work. If gays don't reproduce and gayness is 100% hereditary, this still doesn't conflict. It could be recessive and propogate, it could partially dominant and not be fully expressed in all people, it could be a complex phenotype dependant on several genes, all sorts of things could provide for it.
The mendllian model of one gene per trait is not accurate, especially for complex traits such as behavior. Further, even for those traits with a single gene, the dominant or recessive designation is not necessarily accurate: many traits depend on other factors including other genes, and incomplete dominance is quite common.
All this says nothing about the influence of environment, culture, in compelling gays to mate, straights to be gay, gayness not to be expressed, and all sorts of other things.
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learningtofly said: Ah, Poid, don't forget epigenetics either!
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In biology, and specifically genetics, epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in phenotype (appearance) or gene expression caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence, hence the name epi- (Greek: επί- over, above) -genetics. These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations. However, there is no change in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism; instead, non-genetic factors cause the organism's genes to behave (or "express themselves") differently.
It is my understanding that this is a bit off base: that the genetics of monozygotic twins should have the same genetic information, barring errors in replication. Hence, inherited epigenetic traits should not cause differentiation such as divergent genotypes, et cet.
Do you have some evidence for the proposition that this explains the divergent phenomena discussed?
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Ferdinando said: because they don't need leather bars to be gay think before you post
Are you sure? Do you have some evidence that you can be gay without leather bars? How would you even tell the organism was gay without the leather chaps and all that?
I figured the lack of leather bars meant the forest critters couldn't actually be gay, just bisexual or exerting dominant behavior.
BTW, I like your avatar Ferdinando: nice and simple and pretty.
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mcganky said:
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Poid said:
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mcganky said: well, i'd have to say that when it's really dangerous out there (animals, dying of toothaches, walking everywhere, no refrigeration, etc) there doesn't seem to be as many humans on the earth.
So this means that the more people there are, the safer we are, without limit? 
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mcganky said: since basic knowledge has made it's way to even the third world, and most folks have guns these days, death by lion is rare. death by toothache is rare with a little penicillin. we can avoid the snakes by driving, and eat decent food, most of us. third world food is still better than the first world's food a couple of hundred years ago, thanks to food storage technologies.
So, we can still have all those technologies and also have less people--and we'd be safer IMO because, as you seem to be ignoring for some reason, people can be pretty fucking dangerous.
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mcganky said:
3. in many ways, yes. in a purely darwinian sense, if the dumb are allowed to breed, we become dumber because lack of intellectual prowess is no longer an impediment to survival/reproduction.
please re-read my original out-of-my-ass theory, you seem to have taken much of it out of the context i gave it. no offense.
What context did he take it out of- your ass? Or did it just come out of your ass originally but was placed in a different context? 
Also, please justify your claim that in a darwinian sense if the dumb are allowed to breed we become dumber. a) you suggest we are at equilibrium genetically and somehow preventing the dumb from breeding (which seems plainly false), or are not at equilibrium and trending downward in intelligence which will only be rectified by not "allowing" the dumb to breed. Do you have evidence of this? b) why would the dumb being allowed to breed unimpeded result in the progeny being dumber? Couldn't the dumbness genese be in equilibrium with their allelles such that the rate is not increased? i.e. recessive single dumb/smart gene: heterozygotes mating will produce a stable 1/4 rate of phenotypically dumb. This will not increase due to "letting" them bread, nor would it even be identified and be able to be stopped, as the dumbness is not expressed. Hence, you'd only stop the dumb which would not stop the expression of the dumb phenotype due to heterozygous parents. It might not even create a difference at all depending on the norms of the system (procreation vs phenotype, allele distribution, et cet
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BeverageFace said:
So, you say you are not disagreeing with my proposed theory, and you are saying you don't have a theory of cause, yourself.
So essentially you are talking for the sake of talking. Maybe you should leave the talking to people who actually have an opinion on the topic.
a) what does it matter? Whether or not Poid is opinionated, not, stupid, mean, or whatever has nothing to do with your argument and the claimed defects. At least poid isn't wrong- you on the other hand can't seem to justify what you've said and so appeal to irrelevancies.
b) how is having an opinion preferable? I'd rather people prune the bullshit so we get somewhere than toss another bare declaration they can't defend into the right. This is a philosophy forum: having an opinion as to the merits has nothing to do with whether the criticism of the argument is valid or not.
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durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
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BeverageFace said: Poid. you are unbearable. I now remember why so many people hate you.
If you dont have a stance on this topic, why are you posting? To waste my time arguing against your points that even contradict themselves?
Me: possible cause is sexual abuse you: no, its genetics look! me: if it were genetic it wouldnt be carried forth since carriers in nature wouldnt reproduce, and the ones who nowadays do reproduce, dont produce gay children any more than straights. you: PHENOTYPES me: ok, then why arent identical twins always either both gay, or both straight? you: PHENOTYPES, and environmental factors.
durp, environmental factors like sexual abuse???
Put him on ignore. It makes life so much easier...
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OrgoneConclusion said:
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Studies have shown that gay men have a smaller hypothalamus than straight men.
I wonder if one of those pump thingies would help.
Oh god you are a devilish fiend!! But I like it
What model of pump thingy do you have?
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mcganky
Beardo Weirdo

Registered: 03/20/11
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Loc: FL
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: johnm214]
#14172059 - 03/23/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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johnm214: "What context did he take it out of- your ass? Or did it just come out of your ass originally but was placed in a different context?
Also, please justify your claim that in a darwinian sense if the dumb are allowed to breed we become dumber. a) you suggest we are at equilibrium genetically and somehow preventing the dumb from breeding (which seems plainly false), or are not at equilibrium and trending downward in intelligence which will only be rectified by not "allowing" the dumb to breed. Do you have evidence of this? b) why would the dumb being allowed to breed unimpeded result in the progeny being dumber? Couldn't the dumbness genese be in equilibrium with their allelles such that the rate is not increased? i.e. recessive single dumb/smart gene: heterozygotes mating will produce a stable 1/4 rate of phenotypically dumb. This will not increase due to "letting" them bread, nor would it even be identified and be able to be stopped, as the dumbness is not expressed. Hence, you'd only stop the dumb which would not stop the expression of the dumb phenotype due to heterozygous parents. It might not even create a difference at all depending on the norms of the system (procreation vs phenotype, allele distribution, et cet"
my assertion was that "normal" selective pressures on our species are largely absent. "dumb", in this case, should be defined as a mentally-based inability to cope with a selective pressure, such as no food. the difference between the 'dumb' and 'smart' nowadays may be nothing but a standard of living, whereas in days past, a person who cannot get the hang of agriculture could possibly die. 'allowing' them to breed wasn't really my point, nor was oversimplifying dumb/smart into a false dichotomy. sorry for the confusion.
i pulled a theory out of my ass that perhaps homosexuality is an epigenetically switched behavior that tends to be expressed in times of overcrowding. i suggested this to bridge a gap between the seemingly counter-intuitive notion that a reproductive disadvantage could be so common in our species; that perhaps it serves a purpose on the species level, but not necessarily at an individual level.
i feel like i didn't communicate my idea very clearly at all.
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: mcganky]
#14172186 - 03/23/11 07:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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i pulled a theory out of my ass that perhaps homosexuality is an epigenetically switched behavior that tends to be expressed in times of overcrowding. i suggested this to bridge a gap between the seemingly counter-intuitive notion that a reproductive disadvantage could be so common in our species; that perhaps it serves a purpose on the species level, but not necessarily at an individual level.
Ok assume this is true.
Now the question is what physical changes would this present itself as? I'm not talking behavioral changes. But purely physical ones?
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14172225 - 03/23/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said: I am proposing that homosexuality is a mental illness (this is not a new theory but it seems to have been dropped due to political correctness)
Or, maybe it was dropped due to the fact that it's just plain fucking wrong.
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The reason for my proposal is that if homosexuality was genetic then it would have been selectively eliminated from the gene pool. And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
Do you not think there are mental illnesses with genetic causes? How about schizophrenia, bipolar disease or- wait- basically any other mental problem? Do you think "mental illness" just means "magical soul disease?" No, it's an issue with the brain.
Whether something is considered an "illness" is determined by whether or not it is detrimental to the individual's health. That's why having schizophrenia is considered an "illness" while being intelligent is not, despite the fact that both are genetic neurological properties. Homosexuality is not inherently bad for a person; it makes life difficult only by way of society's intolerance.
Furthermore, there are plenty of instances of homosexuality in other species that lack the intelligence to develop mental problems (as such), and plenty of theories as to why it is evolutionarily advantageous in certain situations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
(Also, 10% is a waaaaay high estimate.)
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I believe that the upbringing of a child causes mental problems that, unless they are correctly resolved, result in the person growing up to be a homosexual. Once the homosexual begins receiving sexual gratification from the same sex they are 'rewarded' which further reinforces the homosexual behaviour.

Believe all you want. That doesn't change the fact that science blatantly rejects your opinion.
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When this process is repeated enough times the individual has become conditioned to respond sexually to the same sex in much the way that Pavlov conditioned his dogs.
Please discuss.
Please come back when you learn how evolution and genetics works. Having some evidence might help too.
Edited by NetDiver (03/23/11 07:47 PM)
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14172267 - 03/23/11 07:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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How about schizophrenia, bipolar disease
Which type of of schizophrenia are you talking about? There are 5 types.
And Bipolar can also be broken into 3-4 subtypes. Which ones are you referring to? Or are you going to lump all of these under one general heading? Please be more specific in your postings otherwise I can't address your comments.
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Believe all you want. That doesn't change the fact that science blatantly rejects your opinion.
Ever heard of Classical conditioning? Maybe you have.
Ever heard of Operant Conditioning? Maybe not? Is that not science?
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Having some evidence might help too.
I agree. Which is why I'm asking for the evidence to support a genetic cause for homosexuality.
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14172320 - 03/23/11 07:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said: I am proposing that homosexuality is a mental illness (this is not a new theory but it seems to have been dropped due to political correctness)
The reason for my proposal is that if homosexuality was genetic then it would have been selectively eliminated from the gene pool. And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
I believe that the upbringing of a child causes mental problems that, unless they are correctly resolved, result in the person growing up to be a homosexual. Once the homosexual begins receiving sexual gratification from the same sex they are 'rewarded' which further reinforces the homosexual behaviour.
When this process is repeated enough times the individual has become conditioned to respond sexually to the same sex in much the way that Pavlov conditioned his dogs.
Please discuss.
hmmm....funny how my gaydar detects biological frequencies for accuracy
i had a friend who was conditioned to be straight...like MANY gay people are....and you can tell by the way they walk, talk, etc...no matter how much they try to play into their given role, at some point they are only happy when they stop hiding from what they are.
not to mention you should do some research on testosterone and estrogen and how they affect sexuality
and as far as your gene pool theory...funny how some women, even today, have beards, and look slightly inbred at some point in their ancestry
don't forget that many or most gay people grow up in traditionally straight, anti-homosexual environments. If there is any pressuring it is to NOT be gay... and yet...they can't help it that they are
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
Edited by the bizzle (03/23/11 08:02 PM)
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: the bizzle]
#14172341 - 03/23/11 08:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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so basically what you're saying is that either way, homos are sub-human?
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14172349 - 03/23/11 08:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said: Which type of of schizophrenia are you talking about? There are 5 types.
And Bipolar can also be broken into 3-4 subtypes. Which ones are you referring to? Or are you going to lump all of these under one general heading? Please be more specific in your postings otherwise I can't address your comments.
Nice attempted brush-off. Here you go, why don't you ask this medical journal which type of schizophrenia they're referring to?
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/160428.php
The actual genome causing at least one form of schizophrenia has been located; specifics are irrelevant. The point is made: mental illnesses have genetic causes.
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Ever heard of Classical conditioning? Maybe you have.
Ever heard of Operant Conditioning? Maybe not? Is that not science?
Oh, I have. Now show me any scientific evidence that it relates to homosexuality at all.
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I agree. Which is why I'm asking for the evidence to support a genetic cause for homosexuality.
You seem to have missed something I posted, so let me show you again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
Homosexuality exists in less intelligent animals that lack societies. Seems like very clear evidence to me.
There are a bunch of theories about why it's evolutionarily advantageous too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals#Research_on_homosexual_behavior_in_animals
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14172385 - 03/23/11 08:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Samurai Drifter said:
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durantz said: Which type of of schizophrenia are you talking about? There are 5 types.
And Bipolar can also be broken into 3-4 subtypes. Which ones are you referring to? Or are you going to lump all of these under one general heading? Please be more specific in your postings otherwise I can't address your comments.
Nice attempted brush-off. Here you go, why don't you ask this medical journal which type of schizophrenia they're referring to?
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/160428.php
The actual genome causing at least one form of schizophrenia has been located; specifics are irrelevant. The point is made: mental illnesses have genetic causes.
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Ever heard of Classical conditioning? Maybe you have.
Ever heard of Operant Conditioning? Maybe not? Is that not science?
Oh, I have. Now show me any scientific evidence that it relates to homosexuality at all.
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I agree. Which is why I'm asking for the evidence to support a genetic cause for homosexuality.
You seem to have missed something I posted, so let me show you again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
Homosexuality exists in less intelligent animals that lack societies. Seems like very clear evidence to me.
There are a bunch of theories about why it's evolutionarily advantageous too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals#Research_on_homosexual_behavior_in_animals
It seems like you have been happy to accept this VERY weak bunch of theories as gospel... that's fine by me but I'm a little more inquisitive.
And you are incorrect about Schizophrenia. I will try to teach you how to read medical research.
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In collaboration with colleagues from across Europe, researchers from the University of Copenhagen and the Mental Health Services in the Capital Region of Denmark have found mutations in the human genome that lead to an increased risk of developing schizophrenia.
What this is actually saying is; "they have located certain mutations that have a positive correlation coefficient with people displaying symptoms of Schizophrenia"
This is definitely NOT proof of a genetic cause for Schizophrenia (and yes it is important to define which type because the 5 types are VERY different).
Also an 'increased risk' can be as small as .05-1% OOOOO that's really conclusive isn't it!!
Please find me a peer reviewed journal article and not some bullshit houswife's medical book. I need to see the whole thing, the participants of the study, the method of the study, the statistical analysis of it.
Yerrr that's right, I actually read research and don't just blindly accept what is posted in some mediocre website.
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14172401 - 03/23/11 08:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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"The study has made it clear that schizophrenia is not a single or small set of ailments, but rather an extensive and varied group of conditions, which may occur for completely different reasons, and which may have myriad ways of expressing themselves,"
You call this conclusive?
This is admitting that "WE have no bloody idea what causes schizophrenia"
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14172488 - 03/23/11 08:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21383261 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19909500 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19358880 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_mental_disorders#Genes
Just because we don't have a total map of exactly what genomes cause which diseases does NOT mean that there is no evidence that mental disorders are not genetic. There is a large body of research (I just linked three articles I found in two minutes of searching) indicating that mental disorders are genetic in origin. This is the current position of the scientific community- it's not even up for debate.
By the way, your understanding of statistics is rather poor; dismissing a statistically significant correlation because it doesn't meet your arbitrary standards of "conclusiveness" is just plain stupid. That's why we have statistical tests to determine whether results are significant.
And yet again, you totally ignored the fact that homosexual behavior is observed in animals that do not have societies, which is convenient considering that basically crushes your whole argument.
If you want to be an anti-gay bigot, fine, go join the fundamentalist Christians. But do NOT pretend that your opinion is scientifically valid. It's been known for DECADES that mental illnesses have genetic causes. You are making yourself look as foolish as a creationist by declaring otherwise in the face of all evidence.
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mcganky
Beardo Weirdo

Registered: 03/20/11
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Loc: FL
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14172606 - 03/23/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said:
Quote:
i pulled a theory out of my ass that perhaps homosexuality is an epigenetically switched behavior that tends to be expressed in times of overcrowding. i suggested this to bridge a gap between the seemingly counter-intuitive notion that a reproductive disadvantage could be so common in our species; that perhaps it serves a purpose on the species level, but not necessarily at an individual level.
Ok assume this is true.
Now the question is what physical changes would this present itself as? I'm not talking behavioral changes. But purely physical ones?
that's beyond my pay grade. i would have to say that the brain is physically structured according to neural connections (among other things), and as such, any behavior could be seen as a 'physical change', more so according to how much it is engaged in or thought about.
my personal belief is that everyone is sexual on a continuum. from the extremely straight to the extremely gay, and everything in between, as long as it isn't coerced or coercive, it's within the realm of acceptably normal. the only evidence i have for these beliefs is anecdotal life experiences, which don't equal data.
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: mcganky]
#14172976 - 03/23/11 10:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's been known for DECADES that mental illnesses have genetic causes.
These would not be mental illnesses then... they would be physical diseases.
So homosexuality is a physical disease?
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14172998 - 03/23/11 10:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Oh and you are assuming that I'm somehow 'gay bashing' with this theory. I already stated that I'm not against homosexuality.
I'm not sure what my personal stance has to do with this anyway? Why are you assuming i'm an anti-gay bigot? and what has this got to do with the discussion?
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14173026 - 03/23/11 10:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said:
Quote:
It's been known for DECADES that mental illnesses have genetic causes.
These would not be mental illnesses then... they would be physical diseases.
So homosexuality is a physical disease?
the brain is a physical thing, or did you miss that?
--------------------
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: learningtofly]
#14173163 - 03/23/11 10:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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yeah so you guys are saying homosexuality is a physical disease?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: learningtofly]
#14173183 - 03/23/11 10:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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He definitely missed that.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14173186 - 03/23/11 10:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: yeah so you guys are saying homosexuality is a physical disease?
Nobody but you is claiming that it is a disease.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14173944 - 03/24/11 02:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: I believe that the upbringing of a child causes mental problems that, unless they are correctly resolved, result in the person growing up to be a homosexual.
Which mental problems would these be?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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durantz
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: fireworks_god]
#14174031 - 03/24/11 03:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
durantz said: I believe that the upbringing of a child causes mental problems that, unless they are correctly resolved, result in the person growing up to be a homosexual.
Which mental problems would these be?
check out some of these theories to get you started.
http://www.learningplaceonline.com/stages/organize/Erikson.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget%27s_theory_of_cognitive_development
I'm proposing that at each stage of development the child must properly move on to the next stage or they develop various mental problems which may contribute to homosexuality in later life.
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Me_Roy
Stranger
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 1
#14174052 - 03/24/11 03:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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So, like, are heterosexual adults who decide not to have children also suffering from a disease?
Is contraception a symptom?
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Me_Roy]
#14174063 - 03/24/11 03:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Me_Roy said: So, like, are heterosexual adults who decide not to have children also suffering from a disease?
Is contraception a symptom?
Yeah you raise a VERY good point. According to the 'genetic homosexuality' supporters this phenomena would also have a genetic cause...
also there would be genetic causes for all other mental deviations from the norm...
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 1
#14174155 - 03/24/11 04:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: check out some of these theories to get you started.
http://www.learningplaceonline.com/stages/organize/Erikson.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget%27s_theory_of_cognitive_development
I'm proposing that at each stage of development the child must properly move on to the next stage or they develop various mental problems which may contribute to homosexuality in later life.
I'm familiar with these theories, but you still haven't answered my question. Which mental problems, precisely, result in a person growing up to be homosexual?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: fireworks_god]
#14174595 - 03/24/11 08:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
durantz said: check out some of these theories to get you started.
http://www.learningplaceonline.com/stages/organize/Erikson.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaget%27s_theory_of_cognitive_development
I'm proposing that at each stage of development the child must properly move on to the next stage or they develop various mental problems which may contribute to homosexuality in later life.
I'm familiar with these theories, but you still haven't answered my question. Which mental problems, precisely, result in a person growing up to be homosexual?
I have no idea... we would need to conduct research. I've just restated an old hypothesis which has been swept aside in the name of political correctness.
Which genes, precisely, result in a person growing up to be homosexual?
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14175195 - 03/24/11 11:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: yeah so you guys are saying homosexuality is a physical disease?
It's as much of a "disease" as being Jewish, or having dark skin- a physical condition that is not inherently bad (like a disease) but is demonized by society, due mostly to religious intolerance.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14175223 - 03/24/11 11:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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If you get brown eyes and dark skin after you are born, then yes. Sexual preferences appear after birth, as a result of the blend between one's personal experiences and one's genetic predispositions. That is not to say that homosexuality is a disease - it is just as healthy or unhealthy as liking giving head, having a leather fetish, or liking orgies.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Cups
technically "here"


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14175235 - 03/24/11 11:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: Which genes, precisely, result in a person growing up to be homosexual?
Howzbout these jeans?
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14175281 - 03/24/11 11:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: If you get brown eyes...after you are born, then yes.
Some people are born with blue eyes, and end up developing a different eye color afterwards--this is not due to any disease.
Why do most babies eyes start out as blue and then change color as the baby grows?
Quote:
Why newborn's have blue eyes The color of our eyes comes from melanin, the pigment that also colors our hair and skin. At birth, a baby's body isn't finished producing this pigment yet. Over the first year of life, as our eyes develop and our bodies produce more melanin, our irises gradually change from "baby" blue to their permanent color. So, what produces the color in green or hazel or brown or black eyes? Actually, despite the many different colors that our eyes can have, the color of the actual pigment in all of them is exactly the same. Melanin only comes in one shade -- yellow-brown. The variations in eye colors come not from the *color* of the pigment in the iris, but rather from the *amount* of the pigment our iris produces. As more melanin is produced, the eye's color changes from light blue to dark blue to green to hazel to brown. You might be wondering why newborn babies' eyes are blue, rather than some other color, like pink or white. Actually, at birth, our irises don't have much color at all. In nature, things that don't actually have color, like water or the sky, often look blue. That's because blue is the most easily "scattered," or reflected, color of light in the spectrum --it's like nature's "default" color. Before our irises produce melanin, they don't reflect any color, so, like the sky, they look blue, too.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: johnm214]
#14175297 - 03/24/11 11:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
DieCommie said: Mental illness is defined by the culture and society. It used to be a mental illness, but its not anymore. In other cultures it still is.
I disagree with this. While fundamentally this is correct in practice, obviously, the definition of mental illness is definite enough that it is able to be defined irrespective of a particular culture's norms.
Mental illness is definately culturally relative, but that doesn't mean they need to be culturally defined, or are. Culture would seem only able to provide a cause of mental illness-mimicking behavior that is not caused by the person's abnormal nature but by perfectly normal adhearance to social or cultural customs, norms (religious customs et cet). Its hard to see how culture could make some behavior mentally ill when it is not so in the abstract. Even in the religious false-positive example, it is not the culture that 'excuses' the behavior, but meerly the cause of behavior that if it was solely of personal manifestation it might represent divergant pathological behavior.
Are you saying homosexuality, for example, is a valid mental illness in a particular culture? Its hard for me to see how that could be so, provided we're speaking of abnormal pathological behavior, which I'd imagine to be a good definition of mental illness
Yes. Yesterday I asked a professional mental health counselor with a degree in psychology and she agreed with me. 
Abnormal pathological behavior is culturally relative. There is no such thing as objective mental illness.
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1minutehasgoneby
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: DieCommie]
#14175565 - 03/24/11 12:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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hahaha homosexuality. This shit cracks me up because we live in a society where gay's are laughed and hated on but than you see two girls kissing and it's like... YEAH!! Everybody is gay. But the question is to what extent? That's all personal preference due to environmental upbringing. In prison where guys are stuck there forever they eventually give up on girls and go for guys.This topic is so so broad and so many factors are included I don't even know where to begin. It has nothing to do with genes IMO and I don't have any evidence sue me. People are just confused. So is it a mental illness? Yes... but society in general is mentally ill.
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Me_Roy
Stranger
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Do left-handed people suffer from a disease?
How about people who think differently than you and your far-right friends?
Fuck your stupid, boring norms.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Me_Roy]
#14175705 - 03/24/11 01:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Me_Roy said: Do left-handed people suffer from a disease?
I dunno, but what about ambidextrous individuals?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14175706 - 03/24/11 01:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: I have no idea... we would need to conduct research.
You've proposed that homosexuality is a mental illness because, in the course of a child's development, they form mental problems, which then produce homosexuality. As far as I can tell, the only basis for which you've suggested that homosexuality should be classified as a "mental illness" is that it results from other mental illnesses.
Whether or not you have a clue as to which mental problems lead to homosexuality, or how exactly having such a mental problem would then inevitably bring forth homosexuality, I don't see any justification why this should make us consider homosexuality a "mental illness". I think that, usually, something is classified as a mental illness due to it's own specifications, not strictly it's etiology. To analogize, it'd be like labeling self-confidence an emotional problem because the person in question only developed it as a result of having insecurities which brought them to take some sessions of CBT. 
If we are to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder, it'd have to be done by it's own merits. Care to take a stab at it?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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durantz
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: fireworks_god]
#14176881 - 03/24/11 04:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
If we are to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder, it'd have to be done by it's own merits. Care to take a stab at it?
haha well it depends on how good the research is... You would definitely not intuitively discover this answer (if it did indeed exist)
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Blondell_Letrange
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14177972 - 03/24/11 07:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Me_Roy said: Do left-handed people suffer from a disease?
I dunno, but what about ambidextrous individuals? 
Constant internal conflict control, the left hand is always getting jealous.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Quote:
Blondell_Letrange said: ...the left hand is always getting jealous.
Wait, was this a masturbation joke?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Blondell_Letrange
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14178057 - 03/24/11 07:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Phrenic
Mind-expander



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14178081 - 03/24/11 07:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Some thought to share(not completly sober here but thought of giving it a try):
Cells don't have gender and cells is what drives us. The whole gender thing was something that evolved through competition. We were all hermaphrodites first. Then female came, specialized in reproducing and so they were selected by other hermaphrodites to mate with. Instead of competing with the females, the hermaphrodites evolved the other direction. Mimimizing reproduction organs, specializing in protection and food gathering they became predators. so now you had hermaphrodites, females and males.. giving the later two the evolutionary advantage..
.... i lost my train of thoughts.....
-------------------- Changing, Exploring, Morphing, Testing, Failing, Succeeding, Traveling, Thinking, Spacing, Tripping, Expanding, Connecting, Registering, Comparing, Discussing, Analyzing, Shifting, Seeing, Brightening, Touching, Timing….. I call it Psychedelic
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
Blondell_Letrange said:

You know the rulez. With a video, I have to conclude you are merely posturing.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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+1
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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durantz
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Phrenic]
#14178378 - 03/24/11 08:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phrenic said: Some thought to share(not completly sober here but thought of giving it a try):
Cells don't have gender and cells is what drives us. The whole gender thing was something that evolved through competition. We were all hermaphrodites first. Then female came, specialized in reproducing and so they were selected by other hermaphrodites to mate with. Instead of competing with the females, the hermaphrodites evolved the other direction. Mimimizing reproduction organs, specializing in protection and food gathering they became predators. so now you had hermaphrodites, females and males.. giving the later two the evolutionary advantage..
.... i lost my train of thoughts.....
Good thoughts dude, see if you can flesh it out a bit more cos I'm not quite understanding you yet.
Also for the 'homosexual gene' supporters. Here is another challenge to your theory. Are there genes for the plethora of sexual fetishes? Is there a S&M gene? A scat gene? A golden shower gene?
I mean come on! Next you'll be telling us there is a Beer drinking gene and a Wine drinking gene. And maybe there's a gene that makes some people prefer eating chicken....
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14178462 - 03/24/11 08:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
And maybe there's a gene that makes some people prefer eating chicken....
I would presume there is. Many organisms with different genes would never eat chicken.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14178529 - 03/24/11 08:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Does anyone know of any recorded instances of feral children mating?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14178592 - 03/24/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah, I've got a few tapes.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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durantz
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: DieCommie]
#14179428 - 03/24/11 11:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
And maybe there's a gene that makes some people prefer eating chicken....
I would presume there is. Many organisms with different genes would never eat chicken.
We are not talking about different organisms... we are talking about the same HUMAN ORGANISM!
What genetic evidence would there be for the infinite differences there are in human behaviour?
It seems that some people here are too sensitive to hear that homosexuality could be simply a psychopathology and simply want to use ONE flawed argument to show that it is genetic; "that other animals do it"...
Awesome argument...
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Me_Roy
Stranger
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14179430 - 03/24/11 11:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Global population is increasing more quickly than our capacity to produce food and you're /still/ seriously arguing that we should consider homosexuality a disease because homosexuals don't reproduce?
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Me_Roy]
#14179462 - 03/24/11 11:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Me_Roy said: Global population is increasing more quickly than our capacity to produce food and you're /still/ seriously arguing that we should consider homosexuality a disease because homosexuals don't reproduce?
no I'm not saying it's a disease, that's what the genetics camp are advocating.
I'm saying it could be a psychopathology.
Just because our civilisation is at this point of unsustainability at this point in time doesn't mean it has been like this throughout history... yet homosexuals have existed since recorded time...
So the idea that they are somehow evolving to combat the growing population is completely illogical.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14179503 - 03/24/11 11:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said:
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
And maybe there's a gene that makes some people prefer eating chicken....
I would presume there is. Many organisms with different genes would never eat chicken.
We are not talking about different organisms... we are talking about the same HUMAN ORGANISM!
The difference between the two being.... Genetic!
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durantz
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: DieCommie]
#14179612 - 03/25/11 12:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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yerrrr no shit...
the difference between a human that likes chicken and a human that likes lamb? culture
Oh wait. no according to you it's genetic... my bad
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14180187 - 03/25/11 02:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: haha well it depends on how good the research is...
What form would research to determine if homosexuality is pathological take? If you were a reasearcher, how would you start, and how would you know when you've found something that suggests that homosexuality is pathological?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14180387 - 03/25/11 04:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said:. I'm saying it could be a psychopathology.
What makes you think it is a psychopathology? Simply stating that some homosexuals have had bad childhood experiences doesn't prove that they are mentally ill. Everybody has some bad childhood experiences - does this mean that not only gays are mentally ill, and that everyone who had a tramatic experience during their childhood are mentally ill? What thoughts and behaviors are responsible for signaling that gay people are mentallly ill?
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14180430 - 03/25/11 04:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
durantz said:. I'm saying it could be a psychopathology.
What makes you think it is a psychopathology? Simply stating that some homosexuals have had bad childhood experiences doesn't prove that they are mentally ill. Everybody has some bad childhood experiences - does this mean that not only gays are mentally ill, and that everyone who had a tramatic experience during their childhood are mentally ill? What thoughts and behaviors are responsible for signaling that gay people are mentallly ill?
THIS IS THE QUESTION DUDE!!! 
This is the NUMBER ONE question facing clinical psychology. How the hell do we decide that one thing is a mental illness as opposed to something that is not.
I have no idea!
The general attitude amongst the American Psychological Society is that in order for something to be considered a mental illness it must "significantly limit the daily functional capacity of the individual"... This is why homosexuality has been dropped from the DSM...
Is this the right choice though? Or was it simply done out of political correctness?
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johnm214


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Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14180463 - 03/25/11 05:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Wait, we've gotten through all these pages only to find out now that you "have no idea" what a mental illness is despite your entire thesis being that homosexuality is one?
WTF?
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: johnm214]
#14180478 - 03/25/11 05:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah john, unlike everyone else on this forum I don't claim to know the intricate workings of the human brain... I think this is hard for some people to come to terms with but I am certainly not afraid of admitting that I'm unsure of something.
I am merely stating a hypothesis which I have confessed needs research in order to understand how strong the hypothesis is.
John do you know something about clinical psychology that us mere mortals do not?
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14180488 - 03/25/11 05:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Oh and john do you realise how many psychologists come together to create the DSM?
If this stuff was so obvious why would there be so many experts arguing with each other for years before they are 'happy' with the next edition of the DSM?
Perhaps you could write the next one on your own?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 4
#14180494 - 03/25/11 05:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Fucking Christ, somebody ban this guy already.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14180594 - 03/25/11 06:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said: Oh and john do you realise how many psychologists come together to create the DSM?
Probably none. The DSM is published by an organization of psychiatrists and, presumably, is pieced together by psychiatrists.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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durantz
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: fireworks_god]
#14180608 - 03/25/11 06:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes you are correct, and this changes my point how?
The point is that an entire group of experts came together to create this publication. NOT an individual.
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the bizzle
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14180763 - 03/25/11 07:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said: Yes you are correct, and this changes my point how?
The point is that an entire group of experts came together to create this publication. NOT an individual.
you seem to be forgetting that in rome a group of experts came together and decided it was alright to have a gay orgy
point being, YOUR perception of homosexuality is based on your upbringing
you might say well nature argues that sex is between man and woman hence procreation
how many people in our society have sex with the goal of making babies?
unless you can prove that hormones are caused by mental illness i don't think you have an argument.
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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NetDiver
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: DieCommie]
#14181010 - 03/25/11 09:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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DieCommie said: Yes. Yesterday I asked a professional mental health counselor with a degree in psychology and she agreed with me. 
Abnormal pathological behavior is culturally relative. There is no such thing as objective mental illness.
I'm well aware of that; but there are certain conditions that have more justification to the term "illness" because they are directly harmful to the individual.
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realfuzzhead



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14181874 - 03/25/11 12:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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RP I beleive its a combination of nature vs. nurture. and even if it was ALL enviroment and ALL choice, thats their fucking choice to be gay. Shouldntmake any difffernece to you, and btw, mental illness is such a subjective term. Ill compared to what? Mainstream society? Your thoughts on how humans "should" be?
Just because the majority is straght doesnt make what the minority do any less right, this should be blatently obvious to you considering the website youre on
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14182502 - 03/25/11 02:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Samurai Drifter said:
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DieCommie said: Yes. Yesterday I asked a professional mental health counselor with a degree in psychology and she agreed with me. 
Abnormal pathological behavior is culturally relative. There is no such thing as objective mental illness.
I'm well aware of that; but there are certain conditions that have more justification to the term "illness" because they are directly harmful to the individual.
Only if you choose to view self-harming as something that shouldn't happen.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14182511 - 03/25/11 02:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said:
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MushroomTrip said:
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durantz said:. I'm saying it could be a psychopathology.
What makes you think it is a psychopathology? Simply stating that some homosexuals have had bad childhood experiences doesn't prove that they are mentally ill. Everybody has some bad childhood experiences - does this mean that not only gays are mentally ill, and that everyone who had a tramatic experience during their childhood are mentally ill? What thoughts and behaviors are responsible for signaling that gay people are mentallly ill?
THIS IS THE QUESTION DUDE!!! 
This is the NUMBER ONE question facing clinical psychology. How the hell do we decide that one thing is a mental illness as opposed to something that is not.
I have no idea!
The general attitude amongst the American Psychological Society is that in order for something to be considered a mental illness it must "significantly limit the daily functional capacity of the individual"... This is why homosexuality has been dropped from the DSM...
Is this the right choice though? Or was it simply done out of political correctness?
So even if you have no clue what mental illness is, you still think that homosexuality is the result of it. Interesting...
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Me_Roy
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14182842 - 03/25/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said:
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Me_Roy said: Global population is increasing more quickly than our capacity to produce food and you're /still/ seriously arguing that we should consider homosexuality a disease because homosexuals don't reproduce?
no I'm not saying it's a disease, that's what the genetics camp are advocating.
I'm saying it could be a psychopathology.
Just because our civilisation is at this point of unsustainability at this point in time doesn't mean it has been like this throughout history... yet homosexuals have existed since recorded time...
So the idea that they are somehow evolving to combat the growing population is completely illogical.
DOOOOOOOD! You TOTALLY missed my point. I never, ever wanted to imply that evolution made homosexuals to combat overpopulation. Quite to the contrary, my point is that not every behavior plays the role of either the protagonist (purposive) or antagonist ('pathology,' as you use the term) in some grand narrative of evolutionary progress.
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Me_Roy
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14182853 - 03/25/11 05:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said:
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Me_Roy said: Global population is increasing more quickly than our capacity to produce food and you're /still/ seriously arguing that we should consider homosexuality a disease because homosexuals don't reproduce?
no I'm not saying it's a disease, that's what the genetics camp are advocating.
I'm saying it could be a psychopathology.
Just because our civilisation is at this point of unsustainability at this point in time doesn't mean it has been like this throughout history... yet homosexuals have existed since recorded time...
So the idea that they are somehow evolving to combat the growing population is completely illogical.
Why the hell do you want the world to be so goddamned black and white? Go ahead, call everything you can't explain psychopathology -- your loss. Art and literature, then, would also be pathologies, to whatever extent they don't advance civilization in some measurable way.
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durantz
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14182888 - 03/25/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yep it's called hypothesizing which is what I have been saying this whole time... which was in the OP...
if noone ever thought to hypothesise then there would have been no development.
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mental illness is such a subjective term. Ill compared to what? Mainstream society? Your thoughts on how humans "should" be?
Well is it really subjective? Would it be correct to say that a person who has OCD and spends 4 hours a day making their bed is perfectly fine?
Or would allow someone with schizophrenia to babysit your children?
I agree that the attitude we have towards people with mental illness is subjective but the illness itself is not. It is still an illness whether we say it is or not. I can imagine a culture where pedophilia is perfectly accepted and encouraged... would this mean that the pedophiles are not mentally ill?
Our Western Culture is making it 'acceptable' and even beginning to encourage homosexuality. This is blatantly obvious by the amount of people on this forum who defend homosexuality. 200 years ago we would not even be arguing over this. So YOUR attitudes are based on some subjective social programming. I'm saying "hang on a minute, what reasons do I have for accepting homosexuality? Should I blindly accept what society is pressuring me to believe or should I be skeptical and question it?" And you want to bash me for doing that?
Just because society tells us that something isn't a mental illness doesn't mean that it isn't. Imagine the society that tells us psychopathy is not a mental illness and that we have to accept psychopathic behaviour. What makes homosexuality any better than these things? Why should it be treated differently?
Why do we have to put up with yearly parades? why do we have to watch homosexuals on all of our TV stations and listen to them on our radio stations? Why do we have to allow them to marry one another and adopt children? Can't you see that this is actually encouraging homosexuality? It's not just saying "ok homosexuals exist within our population now let's get on with life". It's actually saying "wow look at these homosexuals, look how brave and courageous they are for coming out of the closet and living a true life"...
I can only imagine what effect this culture of homosexuality and androgyny is having on our children. Do you honestly think it's a sign of good mental health for a 'lesbian' to become obese, shave her head, and dress like a man, AND THEN have sex with another lesbian who LOOKS JUST LIKE A MAN?!!!! Is that fucking good mental health??? If it is then kill me now cos that is the last kind mental health I want to have.
Take a long hard look at yourselves and then go down to your local gay bar and observe the behaviour that takes place. Then tell me honestly whether you think all of that is a sign of a healthy mind...
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NetDiver
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14183246 - 03/25/11 06:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said: Our Western Culture is making it 'acceptable' and even beginning to encourage homosexuality. This is blatantly obvious by the amount of people on this forum who defend homosexuality. 200 years ago we would not even be arguing over this. So YOUR attitudes are based on some subjective social programming.

We wouldn't have been arguing over whether or not women should vote, either, or whether or not blacks are people and not property. Is our Western society wrongly encouraging those, too, or is it maybe some much needed social progression?
Just admit you're a bigot and stop trying to justify your position with science that clearly contradicts your opinion.
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magicarpet
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14183278 - 03/25/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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i think being gay is more like a state of mind. its like a personality trait that you give yourself. I don't mean to cause any arguments though i just refuse to believe that any baby is born gay I think it's the world/self manipulation if that makes any sense at all... but ya who says that animals can't be a little gay...aint nothin wrong with a little gay here n there
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NetDiver
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: magicarpet]
#14183305 - 03/25/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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^Too bad your opinion is not supported by the science. 
Believe it all you want, just don't assume it has any worth.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 1
#14183363 - 03/25/11 07:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said: Yes you are correct, and this changes my point how?
I don't recall ever saying that it changed your point in any way.
You haven't answered my question regarding your suggestion for more research. I'm really curious about your idea of how this research would take place, and how one could know whether or not such research has found something that proves that homosexuality is pathological. Any clues?
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14183368 - 03/25/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Drifter what scientific evidence is there?
Link me to some journal articles please or stop going on about this "scientific evidence"
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 1
#14183406 - 03/25/11 07:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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All I know for sure is that a man who turns down fine, willing pussy is committing a sin.
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durantz
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: fireworks_god]
#14183412 - 03/25/11 07:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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fireworks_god said:
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durantz said: Yes you are correct, and this changes my point how?
I don't recall ever saying that it changed your point in any way.
You haven't answered my question regarding your suggestion for more research. I'm really curious about your idea of how this research would take place, and how one could know whether or not such research has found something that proves that homosexuality is pathological. Any clues?
This is literally off the top of my head but I think you could begin by.
1. Comparing self report scales of self esteem, happiness, well-being, etc. between populations of homosexuals and populations of heterosexuals. If we found that the mean of the homosexual population was lower we would have some evidence to support that they are not as 'well adjusted' as heterosexuals.
2. Compare more objective measures such as IQ, Networth, yearly income, Health score, etc. This would give us a fair idea of the real life differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals. If homosexuals ranked less in these areas it would be evidence to support that their condition gave them a disadvantage.
Anyways I've got to get back to my lab report! So I will try not to get distracted by this. but look forward to reading your comments.
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magicarpet
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14183454 - 03/25/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Samurai Drifter said: ^Too bad your opinion is not supported by the science. 
Believe it all you want, just don't assume it has any worth.
and that's why i don't put any worth into it, and i'm assuming you know all right??
ohh and btw your opinion is just as right to you as mine is to me i just dont need to explain...to who why? to prove a point? HA
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Poid
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14183489 - 03/25/11 07:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said:
Quote:
mental illness is such a subjective term. Ill compared to what? Mainstream society? Your thoughts on how humans "should" be?
Well is it really subjective? Would it be correct to say that a person who has OCD and spends 4 hours a day making their bed is perfectly fine?
Or would allow someone with schizophrenia to babysit your children?
I agree that the attitude we have towards people with mental illness is subjective but the illness itself is not. It is still an illness whether we say it is or not. I can imagine a culture where pedophilia is perfectly accepted and encouraged... would this mean that the pedophiles are not mentally ill?
Our Western Culture is making it 'acceptable' and even beginning to encourage homosexuality. This is blatantly obvious by the amount of people on this forum who defend homosexuality. 200 years ago we would not even be arguing over this. So YOUR attitudes are based on some subjective social programming. I'm saying "hang on a minute, what reasons do I have for accepting homosexuality? Should I blindly accept what society is pressuring me to believe or should I be skeptical and question it?" And you want to bash me for doing that?
Just because society tells us that something isn't a mental illness doesn't mean that it isn't. Imagine the society that tells us psychopathy is not a mental illness and that we have to accept psychopathic behaviour. What makes homosexuality any better than these things? Why should it be treated differently?
Why do we have to put up with yearly parades? why do we have to watch homosexuals on all of our TV stations and listen to them on our radio stations? Why do we have to allow them to marry one another and adopt children? Can't you see that this is actually encouraging homosexuality? It's not just saying "ok homosexuals exist within our population now let's get on with life". It's actually saying "wow look at these homosexuals, look how brave and courageous they are for coming out of the closet and living a true life"...
I can only imagine what effect this culture of homosexuality and androgyny is having on our children. Do you honestly think it's a sign of good mental health for a 'lesbian' to become obese, shave her head, and dress like a man, AND THEN have sex with another lesbian who LOOKS JUST LIKE A MAN?!!!! Is that fucking good mental health??? If it is then kill me now cos that is the last kind mental health I want to have.
Take a long hard look at yourselves and then go down to your local gay bar and observe the behaviour that takes place. Then tell me honestly whether you think all of that is a sign of a healthy mind...
There is absolutely no hope for this one.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 1
#14183491 - 03/25/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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if noone ever thought to hypothesise then there would have been no development.
You also don't get any development with what you hypothesise without setting your terminology straight. When asked to define mental illness, you hide behind the bush. When asked to futher elaborate your "hypothesis" regarding homosexuality being linked to mental illness, you again hide behind the bush. Some advancement, huh? 
Quote:
Well is it really subjective? Would it be correct to say that a person who has OCD and spends 4 hours a day making their bed is perfectly fine?
But of course it's subjective - and circumstancial for that matter. Could you give an example of a single person who's "perfectly fine", since this seems to be the term by which you define mental health? But what I'm really curious about is to find out how on earth you will succeed to extend the OCD exmaple into proving that homosexuality is mental illness.
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Or would allow someone with schizophrenia to babysit your children?
Oh, so now, according to your standards, a person who is good for babysitting is a mentally healthy person. Does this mean that all persons who aren't fit for babysitting are mentally ill?
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I agree that the attitude we have towards people with mental illness is subjective but the illness itself is not. It is still an illness whether we say it is or not. I can imagine a culture where pedophilia is perfectly accepted and encouraged... would this mean that the pedophiles are not mentally ill?
Would you mean to say that pedophiles are mentally ill? Could you perhaps identify a few aspects of pedophilia that point towards mental illness?
Quote:
Our Western Culture is making it 'acceptable' and even beginning to encourage homosexuality. This is blatantly obvious by the amount of people on this forum who defend homosexuality. 200 years ago we would not even be arguing over this. So YOUR attitudes are based on some subjective social programming. I'm saying "hang on a minute, what reasons do I have for accepting homosexuality? Should I blindly accept what society is pressuring me to believe or should I be skeptical and question it?" And you want to bash me for doing that?
Who ever said you need to accept anything? You have the freedom to feel as frustrated as you want about anything you want. But tell me, do you think that lack of acceptance and a high level of frustration are the properties of a healthy mind? And who said that what's unhealthy isn't worthy of being accepted? How does not accepting something get you anywhere?
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Just because society tells us that something isn't a mental illness doesn't mean that it isn't
And just because you say that homosexuality is mental illness, without providing any evidence for this claim, doesn't mean that it actually is.
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Why do we have to put up with yearly parades? why do we have to watch homosexuals on all of our TV stations and listen to them on our radio stations? Why do we have to allow them to marry one another and adopt children?
Why do we have to put up with te sun rising daily? Or with gravity? Or old ladies who adopt 20 cats? And, most importantly, why do we have to put up with your baseless, ridiculous claim?
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Can't you see that this is actually encouraging homosexuality?
Like OMG, no, this is the worst thing that could happen!!!!
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It's not just saying "ok homosexuals exist within our population now let's get on with life". It's actually saying "wow look at these homosexuals, look how brave and courageous they are for coming out of the closet and living a true life"...
And since all of this is unnacceptable to you, it clearly means that homosexuals are mentally ill. Classy. 
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I can only imagine what effect this culture of homosexuality and androgyny is having on our children.
Care to share those magnificent visions with us all?
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Do you honestly think it's a sign of good mental health for a 'lesbian' to become obese, shave her head, and dress like a man, AND THEN have sex with another lesbian who LOOKS JUST LIKE A MAN?!!!!
Do you honestly think that what you're doing can be called debate or that it can be taken seriously? 
Quote:
Is that fucking good mental health???
Are your posts good mental health?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14183507 - 03/25/11 07:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said:
Quote:
fireworks_god said:
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durantz said: Yes you are correct, and this changes my point how?
I don't recall ever saying that it changed your point in any way.
You haven't answered my question regarding your suggestion for more research. I'm really curious about your idea of how this research would take place, and how one could know whether or not such research has found something that proves that homosexuality is pathological. Any clues?
This is literally off the top of my head
You mean from where the hair starts growing?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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NetDiver
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 2
#14183516 - 03/25/11 07:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said: Drifter what scientific evidence is there?
Link me to some journal articles please or stop going on about this "scientific evidence"
Well, in the first place I've posted many scientific journal articles about how so-called mental illnesses are actually physical and genetic, to which you responded by asking "oh, then is homosexuality a physical disease?" And then I responded by saying "no, it's physical, but it's not a disease at all, it's just another trait."
And then you totally ignored that and went off how being gay is "unhealthy," with a bunch of totally unsupported claims based entirely on the fact that you personally dislike it.
I'm pretty sure at this point that anyone arguing a rational viewpoint would have conceded their mistake with dignity, which makes me think that you have some homosexual urges yourself, and are trying just a LITTLE too hard to compensate.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: MushroomTrip] 1
#14183538 - 03/25/11 07:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
When asked to futher elaborate your "hypothesis" regarding homosexuality being linked to mental illness, you again hide behind the bush.
Are we returning to the 'shaved vs. jungle' debate?
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Poid
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: I'm pretty sure at this point that anyone arguing a rational viewpoint would have conceded their mistake with dignity, which makes me think that you have some homosexual urges yourself, and are trying just a LITTLE too hard to compensate. 

Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
When asked to futher elaborate your "hypothesis" regarding homosexuality being linked to mental illness, you again hide behind the bush.
Are we returning to the 'shaved vs. jungle' debate?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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durantz
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14183601 - 03/25/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well going on the last posts of you and mushroomttip this has just turned into bashing me... I know it is against forum rules and you both know it too. So I guess we will have to end it there??
Rather than answering my questions MushroomTrip you have just put questions in there against me. Why don't you answer my questions instead of making this debate about my sanity?
I never said I'm going to be the reference point of human sanity. You are the one saying that.
Easy to criticise an argument by saying the other person is insane... it has been done throughout history to silence dissent.
As evidenced by the many comments on this board I am definitely not the only person who thinks homosexuality is psychological... so does that mean we are all just totally irrational? And that we should accept the popular theory? Even when that popular theory has no evidence to back it up?
At least I admit that my theory is only a hypothesis. Others here want to actually say their theory is TRUE!! hrmmmmm
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Poid
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14183623 - 03/25/11 07:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: Well going on the last posts of you and mushroomttip this has just turned into bashing me...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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NetDiver
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14183644 - 03/25/11 07:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: Well going on the last posts of you and mushroomttip this has just turned into bashing me... I know it is against forum rules and you both know it too. So I guess we will have to end it there??
Rather than answering my questions MushroomTrip you have just put questions in there against me. Why don't you answer my questions instead of making this debate about my sanity?
I never said I'm going to be the reference point of human sanity. You are the one saying that.
Easy to criticise an argument by saying the other person is insane... it has been done throughout history to silence dissent.
As evidenced by the many comments on this board I am definitely not the only person who thinks homosexuality is psychological... so does that mean we are all just totally irrational? And that we should accept the popular theory? Even when that popular theory has no evidence to back it up?
At least I admit that my theory is only a hypothesis. Others here want to actually say their theory is TRUE!! hrmmmmm
Translation: "I have no actual rational arguments, just baseless opinion! You guys are mean because you're using research and facts, and saying that I'm wrong! I claim that my viewpoint is only a 'theory' even though I blindly hold to it in the face of all evidence! You're all wrong and I'm right! "
Only one of us has actually used any sources at all.
On top of utterly failing at this debate, you exposed the fact that you're insecure about secretly being a 
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 1
#14183657 - 03/25/11 08:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Read the forum rules again - ideas can be attacked. I did plenty of that, but I didn't insult you. I also said a shit load of other things which you chose to ignore. Let me recap for you: 1. What is mental illness? 2. How did you determine, with the exception of your own personal issues against homosexuality, that homosexuals are mentally ill? 3. If you had to present a scientific case on the link between homosexuality and mental illnes, how would you do it? 4. How did you manage to find out that ALL homosexuals had traumatic chilhoods, and, for those of the gays who had traumatic experiences, how did you determine that it was because of them that they became gay? 5. How does whining about who's fit to babysit prove anything about mental illness?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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durantz
Stranger



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14183683 - 03/25/11 08:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Oh god dude... how many times do I need to say this.
I made a hypothesis....
I said it needs research....
I proposed research that could be undertaken....
Nowhere in those statements have I claimed to be the omnipotent being who is the pillar of human sanity..... I'm not sure why you bother to point this out to me cos I already know this....
In actual fact there is no point in me going on about this cos in my OP I simply said I wanted others to discuss this.
The main reason for my OP was to see what kind of split we had here on the forum... so now I see it's actually pretty even split. I'm happy. Are you happy?
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Diploid
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14183692 - 03/25/11 08:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Samurai Drifter,
You know better than to call people names in here. If your argument is so weak that you have to resort to insulting people, then stay out of PS&P. Try the OTD forum where that's how the children there debate. Here we find that boring.
Take a break from the Shroomery to think about it. Your next one will be a lot longer.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14183711 - 03/25/11 08:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Are you happy?
Sure, and what's the best is that my happiness doesn't depend on a silly thread on the shroomey.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14183792 - 03/25/11 08:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I got two mean PMs yesterday. I am going to go cry myself to sleep.
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durantz
Stranger



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I got two mean PMs yesterday. I am going to go cry myself to sleep. 
Obviously not from Icelander or you would have already predicted what they were going to be about and prepared yourself :P
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occollegeboi
MushroomSpaceGod


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14363593 - 04/27/11 09:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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This is actually a topic on here? Um, I happen to be gay and I can tell you that homosexuality is NOT a mental illness. Thousands of species of animals have been observed to exhibit homosexual behaviors.
The biological purpose for homosexuality is population control. Scientists have figured out that just like the animal kingdom, areas where there are high populations have the most homosexuals. This is why every big city in america has a gay area. For example, west hollywood in LA, the castro district in san francisco, hillcrest in san diego, dallas, etc. Smaller cities have smaller amounts of gay people. Gays basically flock to areas of high population because it means a bigger chance for them to find their soul mates, there's more acceptance in a bigger city than in a tiny town. If you've heard about matthew sheopard, he was from a SMALL town. He was probably the only gay person in his community. I do not need to go into the tragedy of his death.
Anyway, I also am bipolar, which is a REAL mental illness. BIPOLAR is a mental illness, not homosexuality.
Also, there has been a study done on homophobic people, you can watch the video here, Homophobes=gay in denial?
Edited by occollegeboi (04/27/11 09:12 PM)
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dazzassj6
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: occollegeboi]
#14365184 - 04/28/11 04:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i think that homosexuality is abnormal. It goes against what nature created us to do. So however u look at it, homosexuality is abnormal.
However, homosexuality is removed from the DSM-IV,it was in the DSM-III as a mental disorder. I think part of this reason was because homosexuality does not affect your daily functioning (occuption, education, social). Therefore it is subclinical level.
I think homosexuality can be both psychological and physiological. Reason why i didnt say genetics is because, how do we know that homosexuality isnt caused by teratogens (harmful substance that causes abnormality in unborn babies).
That is one area that needs exploring. I "think" i read sumwhere that plastics and the things we eat and drink will change certain behaviours or abnormality.
On the other hand, it is absolutely possible to condition a boy to be girly and even make them like their own sex. We've seen boys raised as girls etc etc. Misinterpreted gender schemas by parents can be one contributing factor. However I'm also not ruling out there are some guys that think they are gay and is unsure, ones with sexuality confusion.
Why are some bisexual and some homo and some unsure? What i think is that some men just get talked into it at least for the bisexuals and the "unsure" group. However much studies needs to be done on this matter, but i doubt there will ever be in this day and age as homosexuality is a taboo subject to question on without being called discrimination.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: dazzassj6]
#14365203 - 04/28/11 04:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
dazzassj6 said: i think that homosexuality is abnormal. It goes against what nature created us to do. So however u look at it, homosexuality is abnormal.
However I look at it? Really? What you actually mean is, "if you look at it the way I do".
As far as I know, nature didn't create us for any specific purpose. We were born out of evolutionary chaos. There is no specific direction that humanity needs to be heading. Nature doesn't care, people do.
Now, I do agree with you in that I don't think all gay people necessarily have the same causation behind their feelings. Nature vs nurture? Probably one or the other, or a little of both, depending on who you're talking about.
BTW, I'm pretty sure all of this has been brought up earlier in this dead thread.
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: dazzassj6]
#14365643 - 04/28/11 07:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i think that homosexuality is abnormal. It goes against what nature created us to do.
By that definition, flying in an aluminum tube 6 miles above the Earth is abnormal too.
And it ignores that homosexuality is found throughout nature and may have a species-reinforcing role elucidated by the so-called Uncle Theory where a gay sibling or other relative contributes to the furthering of the family's genetics by helping to raise the family's young.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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NetDiver
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Diploid]
#14366000 - 04/28/11 09:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, all the "homosexuality is unnatural" arguments just show an astonishing degree of ignorance about biology.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: occollegeboi]
#14366009 - 04/28/11 09:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
occollegeboi said: This is actually a topic on here? Um, I happen to be gay and I can tell you that homosexuality is NOT a mental illness. Thousands of species of animals have been observed to exhibit homosexual behaviors.
Are you claiming that animals cant be mentally ill?
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: DieCommie]
#14366025 - 04/28/11 09:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Depends on how broadly you want to define "mental illness." As far as I'm aware, we don't have a catalog of mental illnesses for diagnosing animals.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14366051 - 04/28/11 09:59 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think you found your calling.
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DeliriumTrigger
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I agree with the guy(s) that said homosexuality usually involves their childhood. I don't think anyone's "born" gay. All of the gay males I know didn't have a strong male figure in their life as a child/teenager, thus they search for affection from men to fill the missing father figure they never had, and well, become gay. All the lesbians I've talked to are just attention whores, and don't actually like women. so IDK about them.
Edited by DeliriumTrigger (04/28/11 01:31 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I agree with the guy(s) that said homosexuality usually involves child hood abuse. I don't think anyone's "born" gay.
These may be the two most ignorant sentences I've ever read.
Gay men come from all walks of life. From good families and bad. Wealthy and poor. Some have strong father figures in their childhood and some don't. Some were abused and others not. There is no pattern. And many straight people were abused but are still straight.
This is as ridiculous as stating that gay people "choose" to be gay. It is no more true than that some people "choose" to like chocolate but not vanilla. As if what one prefers is a matter of choice rather than an intrinsic personality trait.
This only really applies to gay men. All the lesbians I've talked to are just attention whores
You don't get out much, eh? That's a pretty dumb statement too.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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DeliriumTrigger
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Diploid]
#14366796 - 04/28/11 12:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I agree with the guy(s) that said homosexuality usually involves child hood abuse. I don't think anyone's "born" gay.
These may be the two most ignorant sentences I've ever read.
Gay men come from all walks of life. From good families and bad. Wealthy and poor. Some have strong father figures in their childhood and some don't. Some were abused and others not. There is no pattern. And many straight people were abused but are still straight.
This is as ridiculous as stating that gay people "choose" to be gay. It is no more true than that some people "choose" to like chocolate but not vanilla. As if what one prefers is a matter of choice rather than an intrinsic personality trait.
This only really applies to gay men. All the lesbians I've talked to are just attention whores
You don't get out much, eh? That's a pretty dumb statement too.
Well, not so much abuse. Just their upbringing in general. Also, I said the one's I, PERSONALLY, have talked to. There's no way you can say I'm wrong. I didn't say all are, I just said the one's I've talked to. & I do get out. I just don't get the point of wasting my time with lesbians that clearly aren't interested in males.
Edited by DeliriumTrigger (04/28/11 04:05 PM)
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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Quote:
DeliriumTrigger said: Also, I said the one's I, PERSONALLY, have talked to. There's no way you can say I'm wrong. I didn't say all are, I just said the one's I've talked to.
If he can't say there's any way you're wrong, then you also can't use that point to support your argument. It's anecdotal evidence, and claiming that it can't be disputed (but CAN be used to dispute) is a logical fallacy.
Quote:
& I do get out. I just don't get the point of wasting my time with dykes.
Ah, so you're a garden-variety bigot. Not surprising.
(Note- that's not a flame. Referring to someone as a "dyke" is a slur and people who use slurs are bigots. Just a fact.)
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DeliriumTrigger
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14367835 - 04/28/11 04:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Dyke is offensive? Hm. Didn't know that.Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
DeliriumTrigger said: Also, I said the one's I, PERSONALLY, have talked to. There's no way you can say I'm wrong. I didn't say all are, I just said the one's I've talked to.
If he can't say there's any way you're wrong, then you also can't use that point to support your argument. It's anecdotal evidence, and claiming that it can't be disputed (but CAN be used to dispute) is a logical fallacy.
Quote:
& I do get out. I just don't get the point of wasting my time with dykes.
Ah, so you're a garden-variety bigot. Not surprising.
(Note- that's not a flame. Referring to someone as a "dyke" is a slur and people who use slurs are bigots. Just a fact.)
That's not what I meant. I was just saying he can't say that isn't the case for the one's I have talked to. I
& Ah, I wasn't aware that was offensive. I'll edit it out of my post.
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magicking
booya



Registered: 06/23/08
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Call it what you will, would you treat a gay person the same way as a straight person? If you haven't learned what love is, then you're just young, stupid and brash, and there's NO cure for that. Treating your fellow man with human respect is all the world could ask of us, yet so many people spit on this belief or turn a blind eye.
Do you say please and thank you? Do you contribute your talents and knowledge for a better world? Do you inspire others around you to do good for themselves and their families, and return love when you receive it? If you don't, then shut the fuck up and go back to your room in your parent's basement until you've grown up and learned what being humble means.
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Life.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: magicking]
#14398143 - 05/04/11 02:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Luckily enough, nobody has to follow your retarded orders, and, to be honest, your attitude sounds anything but humble.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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5-HT2A
Registered: 01/30/10 
Posts: 1,794
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14401294 - 05/04/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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If homosexuality only resulted from poor upbringing, then why do so many gay guys sound different when they talk, tend to be left-handed more often, have a different direction to their hair swirl, and many other things that have nothing to do with upbringing?
OP proposes that the fact that the person is different due to non-genetic causes means they have a disease. He makes no effort to demonstrate that being homosexual inherently causes distress. Most homosexual distress comes from scorn from straight people. So it would really make more sense to consider heterosexuality/human group think to be a disease.
Also, I doubt everyone's sexuality is pliable enough such that they have an equal chance of becoming gay or straight based on which is "rewarded." In middle eastern cultures, many boys have their first sexual experiences with other boys because of cultural sexual isolation, and then go on to identify as straight later in life. If there were truth to the upbringing theory, parts of the middle east would have serious population problems, which they clearly don't have.
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intothelight
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: 5-HT2A]
#14408124 - 05/05/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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OP,
Being gay is no more then being left-handed. Do you consider left-handed people mentally ill too?
If so, I think you are the one who is mentally ill.
At any rate, dumbest theory I've heard proposed this year so far.
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madpsilo


Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 94
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: intothelight]
#14408158 - 05/06/11 12:02 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
intothelight said: OP,
Being gay is no more then being left-handed. Do you consider left-handed people mentally ill too?
If so, I think you are the one who is mentally ill.
At any rate, dumbest theory I've heard proposed this year so far.
AGREED. it is just like being left-handed. You OP, need therapy.
Also, coincidentally, 10% of the population is left-handed.
Other points are that each and everyone one of us plays a role in the grand scheme of things. Homosexuals play a role in population control, not saying they can't reproduce but they'd rather not.
And who can deny that, jus like the vagina serves multiple purposes, the anus is not only meant to expel feces, but also take in penises? This is true because of the over-abundance of nerves in the anus, the location of the prostate gland (no way can you tell me the male g-spot isn't meant to be stimulated), also, feces act as a natural lubricant, though shit has been of course so tabooed in this culture that most gay men usually will make a bowel movement beforehand and wouldn't even think of using that for lube but back in ancient times it was very common.
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sandi
omg


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 796
Loc: M6 (Butterfly Cluster)
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14408160 - 05/06/11 12:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: I am proposing that homosexuality is a mental illness (this is not a new theory but it seems to have been dropped due to political correctness)
The reason for my proposal is that if homosexuality was genetic then it would have been selectively eliminated from the gene pool. And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
I believe that the upbringing of a child causes mental problems that, unless they are correctly resolved, result in the person growing up to be a homosexual. Once the homosexual begins receiving sexual gratification from the same sex they are 'rewarded' which further reinforces the homosexual behaviour.
When this process is repeated enough times the individual has become conditioned to respond sexually to the same sex in much the way that Pavlov conditioned his dogs.
Please discuss.
Ridiculous. People like what they like, and people can also change in their tastes. If this was the case, you would also have rape victims that could only get off being physically beaten and raped. This is a cliche that a lot of people think of (that people who are raped are now into kink because of it or suddenly want lots of sex). There is nothing Pavlovian about sexual desire. If it were that simple, well...damn, if only it were that simple. Why would you even think that it's a mental illness when it's simply sex between two people? Why should the sex of the people matter? Why is it then defined as a mental illness?
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foliocb
always running



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: sandi]
#14408592 - 05/06/11 03:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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One thing to keep in mind here is that humans are not the only species that exhibit homosexual behavior.
On that note, Nature isn't perfect. It makes mistakes... all the time. We call this 'evolutionary culdesacs'.
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magicking
booya



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14412352 - 05/06/11 08:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Guess you missed the message then.
Let's be honest, the anonymity of the Internet allows us to be total dicks to each other. We "say" things we wouldn't normally say to each other if we were sitting down and having a real conversation. I read so many petty back-and-forth one-upping on this site that I forget how I got here in the first place. I do drugs to bring my thinking to a different level, to explore this reality and others with an open mind and a new perspective. Shouldn't we carry this behavior over into our daily lives? It's really simple to grasp how fragile life can be, how small, how seemingly insignificant every thing we have done in our lives compared to the history of existence as we know it is...and yet we don't let this knowledge reflect onto how we treat each other. Some people do really well at it, I'm not saying we live in a world filled with hateful people. They are out there, but there isn't much we can do but demonstrate to them that despite their behaviors, we can still act the way we choose, the way we feel is right, and frankly the way we want to. Yes I know this is a double-edged sword and you can argue that doing what you want to do can also mean choosing to be a dick...but that is ultimately your choice to make. I know plenty of dicks. I also happen to get along with them because I try to focus on the good in people, and sympathize for the bad. There are reasons for us to be angry, there are reasons for us to be irrational and emotional and make stupid decisions, and there are times when we think is it even worth it? I've been in plenty of stressful situations where my mind comes to a point where I can't help but think "fuck it, I'm gonna zone out to last weekend when i was having a good ass time" and for that instant when I back up to a different place, forget where I am, and take a fresh look at the situation as I come back into the moment, I can think with a clear head again.
Anyway...
I guess my point is to just love one another. If everybody is doing it, then how can we go wrong?
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Life.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: magicking]
#14413626 - 05/07/11 02:34 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
magicking said: Guess you missed the message then.
Let's be honest, the anonymity of the Internet allows us to be total dicks to each other. We "say" things we wouldn't normally say to each other if we were sitting down and having a real conversation. I read so many petty back-and-forth one-upping on this site that I forget how I got here in the first place. I do drugs to bring my thinking to a different level, to explore this reality and others with an open mind and a new perspective. Shouldn't we carry this behavior over into our daily lives? It's really simple to grasp how fragile life can be, how small, how seemingly insignificant every thing we have done in our lives compared to the history of existence as we know it is...and yet we don't let this knowledge reflect onto how we treat each other. Some people do really well at it, I'm not saying we live in a world filled with hateful people. They are out there, but there isn't much we can do but demonstrate to them that despite their behaviors, we can still act the way we choose, the way we feel is right, and frankly the way we want to. Yes I know this is a double-edged sword and you can argue that doing what you want to do can also mean choosing to be a dick...but that is ultimately your choice to make. I know plenty of dicks. I also happen to get along with them because I try to focus on the good in people, and sympathize for the bad. There are reasons for us to be angry, there are reasons for us to be irrational and emotional and make stupid decisions, and there are times when we think is it even worth it? I've been in plenty of stressful situations where my mind comes to a point where I can't help but think "fuck it, I'm gonna zone out to last weekend when i was having a good ass time" and for that instant when I back up to a different place, forget where I am, and take a fresh look at the situation as I come back into the moment, I can think with a clear head again.
Anyway...
I guess my point is to just love one another. If everybody is doing it, then how can we go wrong?
And I guess this was your example of humbleness and love then?
Quote:
If you don't, then shut the fuck up and go back to your room in your parent's basement until you've grown up and learned what being humble means.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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magicking
booya



Registered: 06/23/08
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14417106 - 05/07/11 10:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well, to be fair the entire statement was
Do you say please and thank you? Do you contribute your talents and knowledge for a better world? Do you inspire others around you to do good for themselves and their families, and return love when you receive it? If you don't, then shut the fuck up and go back to your room in your parent's basement until you've grown up and learned what being humble means.
And no, that was more an example of where you would be without humbleness and love. The beginning of my statement would've been more or less the point.
--------------------
Life.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: magicking]
#14418159 - 05/08/11 04:05 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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What about this?
If you don't, then shut the fuck up and go back to your room in your parent's basement until you've grown up and learned what being humble means.
That doesn't sound quite humble to me. Maybe, instead of boring us all here, you should go to your momma's basement and spend some time in there.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Ahimsa
µdose


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14418777 - 05/08/11 10:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Homosexuality might well be a normal phase. You know, exploring each others changing bodies. Anyone's, that is. Of course, the natural functions eventually dictate our behavior. Perhaps homosexuality is being stuck at some phase of normal personal growth. I don't think an illness if consciously adhered too. If not understood to be only a limited expression of one's sexuality and sexual possibilities, then yeah possibly a disability at most.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14419692 - 05/08/11 01:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: Homosexuality might well be a normal phase. You know, exploring each others changing bodies. Anyone's, that is. Of course, the natural functions eventually dictate our behavior. Perhaps homosexuality is being stuck at some phase of normal personal growth. I don't think an illness if consciously adhered too. If not understood to be only a limited expression of one's sexuality and sexual possibilities, then yeah possibly a disability at most.
And what of those who never even reach that phase?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14419741 - 05/08/11 01:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: Homosexuality might well be a normal phase.
It could also be a deep-seated preference.
Quote:
Ahimsa said: You know, exploring each others changing bodies. Anyone's, that is.
Not everyone goes through a "gay phase", but I hope you had fun. 
Quote:
Ahimsa said: Of course, the natural functions eventually dictate our behavior.
Right, and they also dictate our preferences.
Quote:
Ahimsa said: Perhaps homosexuality is being stuck at some phase of normal personal growth.
This is ridiculous--one could just as easily argue that heterosexuality is being stuck at some phase of normal personal growth. 
Quote:
Ahimsa said: I don't think an illness if consciously adhered too. If not understood to be only a limited expression of one's sexuality and sexual possibilities, then yeah possibly a disability at most.
What do you mean "a limited expression of one's sexuality and sexual possibilities"? Are you suggesting that people disregard their innate sexual preference, and start trying things they don't really like? One's sexuality is dictated by both their genes and environment, and some people's sexuality is intrinsically limited; for some people, being gay is a full expression of their sexuality.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (05/08/11 02:29 PM)
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Ahimsa
µdose


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14419798 - 05/08/11 02:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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It just feels to me that not experiencing one's sexuality according to natures plan can be fulfilling enough. You know, what about babies and children? What about the act of intercourse?
For some reason i feel inclined to take nature as the reference. How could you argue against that?
Homosexuality is a possibility, i agree. But for a healthy and harmonic lifelong way of self-expression and -assertion its methodology seems flawed to me.
But i then i don't experientially know and can only guess. It's a hunch, likely cause i believe only nature is perfect over time.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14419821 - 05/08/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nature has a plan?
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Ahimsa
µdose


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14419862 - 05/08/11 02:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah, to satisfy your soul's desire for happiness.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14419875 - 05/08/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: It just feels to me that not experiencing one's sexuality according to natures plan can be fulfilling enough.
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Nature has a plan? 
Quote:
Ahimsa said: You know, what about babies and children? What about the act of intercourse?
What about them? What about intercourse?
Quote:
Ahimsa said: For some reason i feel inclined to take nature as the reference. How could you argue against that?
And how is nature referring you to the belief that everybody should try sexual things that don't appeal to them?
Quote:
Ahimsa said: Homosexuality is a possibility, i agree. But for a healthy and harmonic lifelong way of self-expression and -assertion its methodology seems flawed to me.
It's methodology seems flawed to you? Really? 
Again, some people find that being gay is a full expression of their sexuality; are you saying it's unhealthy for one to fulfill their desires? 
Quote:
Ahimsa said: But i then i don't experientially know and can only guess. It's a hunch, likely cause i believe only nature is perfect over time.
What do you mean "only nature is perfect over time", and why would this mean that people should try sexual things that don't appeal to them?
Quote:
Ahimsa said: Yeah, to satisfy your soul's desire for happiness.
God, what a load of crap! 
You don't actually believe that, do you?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Ahimsa
µdose


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14419943 - 05/08/11 02:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Eeuh... i do believe my soul desires happiness and that nature provides for that. What's wrong with that? Too simplistic? Naive? What?
And why can't you see that there is a purpose for everything? Male and female... sure that's not hard to see, is it?
OK perhaps some minority of people do feel satisfied with a homosexual relationship and live a long life as partners together.
Look I'm not outspoken pro or contra homosexuality. But there are plenty of examples indicating that homosexuality is not healthy.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14420002 - 05/08/11 03:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: And why can't you see that there is a purpose for everything? Male and female... sure that's not hard to see, is it?
Homosexuality is not included within "everything"?
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Ahimsa
µdose


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14420030 - 05/08/11 03:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes it is. But it doesn't help to sustain human life. I guess i am biased towards nature's design. Hey, my choice man!
edited: *does -> doesn't
Edited by Ahimsa (05/08/11 03:20 PM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14420035 - 05/08/11 03:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: Eeuh... i do believe my soul desires happiness and that nature provides for that. What's wrong with that? Too simplistic? Naive? What?
There is no evidence which suggests that souls are real.
Quote:
Ahimsa said: And why can't you see that there is a purpose for everything? Male and female... sure that's not hard to see, is it?
What's there to see? Do you not understand evolution?
Quote:
Ahimsa said: But there are plenty of examples indicating that homosexuality is not healthy.
Such as?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14420048 - 05/08/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: Yes it is. But it does help to sustain human life. I guess i am biased towards nature's design. Hey, my choice man!
I don't understand. Plenty of animals can be homosexual. It is as much a part of nature as reproductive sex.
I think you meant to say it doesn't help to sustain human life, which is speculation at best. A controlled population is important. Infinite growth is unhealthy.
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Ahimsa
µdose


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14420071 - 05/08/11 03:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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The life-force taking me from birth to death i regard to be my soul. Well, it takes male/female to continue the human race. So there, that's my logic. Homosexuality is often associated STD's, drug or alcohol abuse, murder, suicide and according to psychologists less happiness but not due to stigmatization.
Just saying, it is not wrong, but there are consequences, and, to me it appears the natural commodities are the way to go! Just my take on it.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14420112 - 05/08/11 03:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: The life-force taking me from birth to death i regard to be my soul.
There are already words for the biological functions that support our lives..why give them another name, especially one as loaded as "soul"?
Quote:
Ahimsa said: Well, it takes male/female to continue the human race. So there, that's my logic.
Your logic for what?
Quote:
Ahimsa said: Homosexuality is often associated STD's, drug or alcohol abuse, murder, suicide and according to psychologists less happiness but not due to stigmatization.
Source?
Quote:
Ahimsa said: Just saying, it is not wrong, but there are consequences...
Not necessarily--there could just as easily be consequences for any other sexual orientation.
Quote:
Ahimsa said: ...and, to me it appears the natural commodities are the way to go!
What do you mean by this?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Ahimsa
µdose


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14420190 - 05/08/11 03:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Come on man. Simply put,there is a natural scheme of things. Why go contrary so persistently? Fun? Some people enjoy SM or other ways... i don't know, it feels like deviating from the natural mean and means.
------------------------------------------ Here are some references for you to ponder:
The Archives of Internal Medicine, "Homosexually active men are significantly more likely to report syphilis and less likely to present with primary syphilis than heterosexual men."
New England Journal of Medicine, "At least 80 percent of homosexual men presenting to our sexually transmitted disease clinic with anorectal or intestinal symptoms were infected with one or more sexually transmissible anorectal or enteric pathogens. Such infections were also found in 39 percent of homosexual men presenting to the clinic without intestinal symptoms."
Harrisonís Principles of Internal Medicine, "In one New York Study, all nontraveled immunocompetent males with giardiasis were, in fact, homosexual."
New England Journal of Medicine, "Anal intercourse may predispose to anal cancer through the transmission of an infection, most probably infection with human papillomavirus."
The Journal of the American Medical Association, "among men, report of any lifetime homosexual activity was associated with an elevated risk for HSV-2 [herpes simplex virus - 2]."
American Journal of Medicine,"... heterosexual men in a sexually transmitted disease clinic have a substantially lower prevalence of cytomegalovirus seropositivity than do homosexual men."
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14420240 - 05/08/11 03:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: Come on man. Simply put,there is a natural scheme of things. Why go contrary so persistently? Fun? Some people enjoy SM or other ways... i don't know, it feels like deviating from the natural mean and means.
The point is, it is NOT deviation. Homosexuals are doing exactly what nature urges them to do. Contrary to what?
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Ahimsa
µdose


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14420255 - 05/08/11 03:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Contrary to reproduction.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14420262 - 05/08/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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But, even assuming nature HAS a plan, reproduction is not the whole story. What about all the barren lifeless planets in the universe? Are those not part of nature? What about death itself? Humans will live on regardless of whether there are homosexuals in the world or not.
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Ahimsa
µdose


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14420313 - 05/08/11 04:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes that's true. ALL things have their purpose, and so does homosexuality. STD's are found among heterosexuals also. I don't think homosexuality is a mental illness, but then again, for example, what is too much sex?  Personally i find nature to be providing quite reasonable answers.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14420333 - 05/08/11 04:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: Come on man. Simply put,there is a natural scheme of things. Why go contrary so persistently? Fun? Some people enjoy SM or other ways... i don't know, it feels like deviating from the natural mean and means.
------------------------------------------ Here are some references for you to ponder:
The Archives of Internal Medicine, "Homosexually active men are significantly more likely to report syphilis and less likely to present with primary syphilis than heterosexual men."
New England Journal of Medicine, "At least 80 percent of homosexual men presenting to our sexually transmitted disease clinic with anorectal or intestinal symptoms were infected with one or more sexually transmissible anorectal or enteric pathogens. Such infections were also found in 39 percent of homosexual men presenting to the clinic without intestinal symptoms."
Harrisonís Principles of Internal Medicine, "In one New York Study, all nontraveled immunocompetent males with giardiasis were, in fact, homosexual."
New England Journal of Medicine, "Anal intercourse may predispose to anal cancer through the transmission of an infection, most probably infection with human papillomavirus."
The Journal of the American Medical Association, "among men, report of any lifetime homosexual activity was associated with an elevated risk for HSV-2 [herpes simplex virus - 2]."
American Journal of Medicine,"... heterosexual men in a sexually transmitted disease clinic have a substantially lower prevalence of cytomegalovirus seropositivity than do homosexual men."
So, just because some statistics seem to say that homosexuals have more chances to get std's, you concluded that the natural scheme of things doesn't include homosexuality? To me it just sounds like a giant leap of logic. Maybe this natural scheme also doesn't include driving, since there are always so many driving-related accidents.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14420341 - 05/08/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: Why go contrary so persistently?
Gay people do not "go contrary" to their own nature..why is this so hard for you to understand?
Quote:
Ahimsa said: Fun? Some people enjoy SM or other ways... i don't know, it feels like deviating from the natural mean and means.
What is "the natural mean and means"? Earlier you were suggesting that people explore different avenues of sexuality, now you're deploring S&M? 
Who cares if people do things that deviate from the norm? Why is it any of your concern, and why would you label it as being pathological?
Quote:
Ahimsa said: ------------------------------------------ Here are some references for you to ponder:
Do you have a link for this?
Quote:
Ahimsa said: The Archives of Internal Medicine, "Homosexually active men are significantly more likely to report syphilis and less likely to present with primary syphilis than heterosexual men."
New England Journal of Medicine, "At least 80 percent of homosexual men presenting to our sexually transmitted disease clinic with anorectal or intestinal symptoms were infected with one or more sexually transmissible anorectal or enteric pathogens. Such infections were also found in 39 percent of homosexual men presenting to the clinic without intestinal symptoms."
Harrisonís Principles of Internal Medicine, "In one New York Study, all nontraveled immunocompetent males with giardiasis were, in fact, homosexual."
New England Journal of Medicine, "Anal intercourse may predispose to anal cancer through the transmission of an infection, most probably infection with human papillomavirus."
The Journal of the American Medical Association, "among men, report of any lifetime homosexual activity was associated with an elevated risk for HSV-2 [herpes simplex virus - 2]."
American Journal of Medicine,"... heterosexual men in a sexually transmitted disease clinic have a substantially lower prevalence of cytomegalovirus seropositivity than do homosexual men."
Alright, so homosexuals as a group have a higher rate of STDs than heterosexuals..so what? This doesn't mean that homosexuality is inherently more dangerous than heterosexuality, it's merely incidental. It also doesn't in any way prove that homosexuality is not part of the natural scheme of things.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Ahimsa
µdose


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#14420395 - 05/08/11 04:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I know, a few facts don't prove a thing. Perhaps it's about love. Or sex. I don't think i said that homosexuality is not part of nature. It clearly is. Thing is, there are not going to be any children, and there are some increased health-risks associated.
Still, nature has provided male and female for a reason. Can you do better than nature?
Besides there are ways to prevent more childbirth, doesn't need to through same-sex relations.
They are not wrong, just incomplete i feel.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14420413 - 05/08/11 04:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: Still, nature has provided male and female for a reason.
What reason is that?
Quote:
Ahimsa said: Can you do better than nature?
Nature has also provided for male & male.
Quote:
Ahimsa said: Besides there are ways to prevent more childbirth, doesn't need to through same-sex relations.
, are you serious? Do you actually think that people become gay in order to prevent childbirth?
You don't seem to be able to put yourself in the shoes of an individual who has a different sexual orientation than you do. 
Quote:
Ahimsa said: They are not wrong, just incomplete i feel.
That's a pretty harsh judgement..this type of thinking has lead to lots of cruelty towards gays in the past (and even today), and many laws which restrict gay people from marrying each other.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Ahimsa
µdose


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14420431 - 05/08/11 04:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think male-female relationship is normal because it is what nature advocates by design. Same-sex relationships are not a mental illness and do belong to the possibilities. After all i guess it boils down to being happy with what you do. Why would you do it otherwise? To be unhappy? Don't think so. I may not be much of a thinker, but whenever i look at this world, nature, i am overwhelmed by its ways, its design, its perfection and completeness. I don't doubt that. The rest i am skeptical about.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14420435 - 05/08/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: They are not wrong, just incomplete i feel.
I have met gay people who are very clear on who they are, what they like, and where they are going in life. Just because they aren't going to procreate means they are incomplete?
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Ahimsa
µdose


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14420450 - 05/08/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I thought they would be. So i'm wrong i guess. I would.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14420484 - 05/08/11 04:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: I think male-female relationship is normal because it is what nature advocates by design.
It also advocates male-male relationships by design..if it didn't, there wouldn't be any male-male relationships.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Ahimsa]
#14422404 - 05/08/11 10:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ahimsa said: Yes it is. But it doesn't help to sustain human life. I guess i am biased towards nature's design. Hey, my choice man!
edited: *does -> doesn't
Sheer ignorance of biology. 
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=evolution+of+homosexuality&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart
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occollegeboi
MushroomSpaceGod



Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 2,857
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: NetDiver]
#14422855 - 05/09/11 01:05 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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The EGO is what sustains human life, not procreation.
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dewanand
Stranger
Registered: 05/09/11
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: occollegeboi]
#14423539 - 05/09/11 08:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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hello namaste,
It is very difficult to define homosexuality as a mental illness. Consider that there are also mentally ill and insane heterosexual people and this too could be a genetical disorder or a malfunction. How could it be that normal heterosexual couples keep on producing homosexual children all the time? How you define something that is normal?
Maybe it is just nature or god that is working to make homosexual people, but then it is just normal and not an aberration.
Sexual needs are very complicated things in the world of humans. I will post more about this next week, if I know more about the rules of this forum.
bye
dewanand
Edited by dewanand (05/09/11 08:12 AM)
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Altered States
Synesthesia seeker



Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 336
Loc: USA
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14424290 - 05/09/11 12:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: I am proposing that homosexuality is a mental illness (this is not a new theory but it seems to have been dropped due to political correctness)
The reason for my proposal is that if homosexuality was genetic then it would have been selectively eliminated from the gene pool. And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
I believe that the upbringing of a child causes mental problems that, unless they are correctly resolved, result in the person growing up to be a homosexual. Once the homosexual begins receiving sexual gratification from the same sex they are 'rewarded' which further reinforces the homosexual behaviour.
When this process is repeated enough times the individual has become conditioned to respond sexually to the same sex in much the way that Pavlov conditioned his dogs.
Please discuss.
It's quite obvious that you have no children to speak of and probably have never sat down and exchanged so much as two words with a homosexual about why they are the way they are. And I really hope you shed some of your more bigit qualities before you decide to have children, for the sake of those children.
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 SUPPORT M.A.P.S. "MULTIDISCIPLINARY ASSOCATION FOR PSYCHEDELIC STUDIES" DRUMMING ON THE EDGE OF MADNESS!!
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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He later posted a thread saying he no longer believed that.
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Synapses-R-Us
Perspective is Subjective


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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14424577 - 05/09/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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It is not an illness, it's a preference.
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"Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which he has been born - the beneficiary inasmuch as language gives access to the accumulated records of other people's experience, the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for data, his words for actual things."
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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"bigit"
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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