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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Haha, I get it.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14170193 - 03/23/11 01:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's more fun if I don't make it too obvious.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Obvious obviousness is obvious, Cptn. Obvious.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14170228 - 03/23/11 01:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I was hoping to have gotten a promotion by now.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Well, if it matters, I can offer you one of my highly-coveted awards:
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 216
Loc: ontario, canada
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14170265 - 03/23/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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BeverageFace said: If you dont have a stance on this topic, why are you posting?

My position is that it's possible for there to be a "gay gene", not that there definitely is one; reading comprehension is a must if you desire to post here.
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BeverageFace said: Me: possible cause is sexual abuse you: no, its genetics look!
Never said that, or disagreed that sometimes sexual abuse may cause it. 
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BeverageFace said: me: if it were genetic it wouldnt be carried forth since carriers in nature wouldnt reproduce, and the ones who nowadays do reproduce, dont produce gay children any more than straights. you: PHENOTYPES
I responded with 'genotypes' when you first said this--are you high, or do you always have this much difficulty with short-term memory?
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BeverageFace said: me: ok, then why arent identical twins always either both gay, or both straight? you: PHENOTYPES, and environmental factors.
I provided evidence that proves that identical twins can sometimes have different phenotypes--why is this so frustrating for you? I have no idea why it's so hard for you to accept that you're wrong in saying that homosexuality is definitely not genetically caused, especially after what you thought was evidence for this position has been debunked, but I think it has a lot to do with Icelander's "Wrong" thread. 
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BeverageFace said: durp, environmental factors like sexual abuse???

Again, I never said that sexual abuse definitely cannot influence one's sexual orientation--where you're pulling this crap out of is extremely mysterious to me. 
So, you say you are not disagreeing with my proposed theory, and you are saying you don't have a theory of cause, yourself.
So essentially you are talking for the sake of talking. Maybe you should leave the talking to people who actually have an opinion on the topic.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14170290 - 03/23/11 01:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said: So, you say you are not disagreeing with my proposed theory, and you are saying you don't have a theory of cause, yourself.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong here, but weren't you claiming that there is no genetic basis for homosexuality?
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BeverageFace said: So essentially you are talking for the sake of talking. Maybe you should leave the talking to people who actually have an opinion on the topic.
My opinion is that there is not enough evidence to establish that homosexuality is definitely not genetically influenced; also, you were making it seem like sexual abuse is a major cause for homosexuality, and I was disagreeing with that.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 216
Loc: ontario, canada
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14170393 - 03/23/11 02:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
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BeverageFace said: So, you say you are not disagreeing with my proposed theory, and you are saying you don't have a theory of cause, yourself.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong here, but weren't you claiming that there is no genetic basis for homosexuality?
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BeverageFace said: So essentially you are talking for the sake of talking. Maybe you should leave the talking to people who actually have an opinion on the topic.
My opinion is that there is not enough evidence to establish that homosexuality is definitely not genetically influenced; also, you were making it seem like sexual abuse is a major cause for homosexuality, and I was disagreeing with that.
So where were your points against sexual abuse being a cause, that werent from the genetic standpoint?
You said "well straight guys get abused too"
Except that doesn't mean it doesnt cause people to become homosexual.
no wonder you are ignored by almost 70 people. it takes how many posts for you to clearly state what your position on the topic is?
you are clearly not worth talking to.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace] 1
#14170447 - 03/23/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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BeverageFace said: So where were your points against sexual abuse being a cause, that werent from the genetic standpoint?
I didn't make any points against sexual abuse being a cause--you mentioned that sexual abuse is a cause, and I assumed that you believe that it is a primary cause. I do agree that it is sometimes a cause, but don't believe that it is a primary cause; this is the point I was making.
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BeverageFace said: You said "well straight guys get abused too"
Except that doesn't mean it doesnt cause people to become homosexual.
That's not what I implied--I thought your point in mentioning that abuse causes homosexuality was to demonstrate that homosexuality is only caused by abuse, and abuse necessarily causes homosexuality. Since abuse isn't always correlated with homosexuality, what makes you think that they are causally connected?
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BeverageFace said: no wonder you are ignored by almost 70 people. it takes how many posts for you to clearly state what your position on the topic is?
It's been clear since my first post, you just have a lot of trouble with comprehending it, along with several other things (like how to debate, for example). This debate would have gone a lot smoother if you actually responded to each of my points individually, and didn't just quote my entire post and wrote a consolidated response under it.
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BeverageFace said: you are clearly not worth talking to.
OK, then fuck off? 
I don't understand why you're getting so emotional about this--it's just a debate, there is no reason to get mad and act like a stupid child. Unless, of course, you are an emotional/psychological mess, then you have plenty of reason!
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 216
Loc: ontario, canada
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14170483 - 03/23/11 02:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
BeverageFace said: So where were your points against sexual abuse being a cause, that werent from the genetic standpoint?
I didn't make any points against sexual abuse being a cause--you mentioned that sexual abuse is a cause, and I assumed that you believe that it is a primary cause. I do agree that it is sometimes a cause, but don't believe that it is a primary cause; this is the point I was making.
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BeverageFace said: You said "well straight guys get abused too"
Except that doesn't mean it doesnt cause people to become homosexual.
That's not what I implied--I thought your point in mentioning that abuse causes homosexuality was to demonstrate that homosexuality is only caused by abuse, and abuse necessarily causes homosexuality. Since abuse isn't always correlated with homosexuality, what makes you think that they are causally connected?
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BeverageFace said: no wonder you are ignored by almost 70 people. it takes how many posts for you to clearly state what your position on the topic is?
It's been clear since my first post, you just have a lot of trouble with comprehending it, along with several other things (like how to debate, for example). This debate would have gone a lot smoother if you actually responded to each of my points individually, and didn't just quote my entire post and wrote a consolidated response under it.
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BeverageFace said: you are clearly not worth talking to.
OK, then fuck off? 
I don't understand why you're getting so emotional about this--it's just a debate, there is no reason to get mad and act like a stupid child. Unless, of course, you are an emotional/psychological mess, then you have plenty of reason! 
poid. i remember when you went around and said this about anyone who showed you up. your ratings are full of it. dont forget your melt.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace] 1
#14170505 - 03/23/11 02:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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WTF are you talking about, when did I say this to anyone who "showed me up"? What "melt"? Whose fucking puppet are you, huh? 
If you really hate me so much, then maybe we can have a little meeting IRL to settle this--what do you say?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid] 1
#14170827 - 03/23/11 03:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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"I broke his hands with my face!"
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz] 1
#14170942 - 03/23/11 03:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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durantz said: I am proposing that homosexuality is a mental illness (this is not a new theory but it seems to have been dropped due to political correctness)
The reason for my proposal is that if homosexuality was genetic then it would have been selectively eliminated from the gene pool. And with estimates of 10% of the population being homosexual it is very unlikely that there is a genetic cause for this.
I believe that the upbringing of a child causes mental problems that, unless they are correctly resolved, result in the person growing up to be a homosexual. Once the homosexual begins receiving sexual gratification from the same sex they are 'rewarded' which further reinforces the homosexual behaviour.
When this process is repeated enough times the individual has become conditioned to respond sexually to the same sex in much the way that Pavlov conditioned his dogs.
Please discuss.
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durantz said: I believe
And i believe that santa poops blood.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14171004 - 03/23/11 03:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Poid. you are unbearable. I now remember why so many people hate you.
You need to stick this crap where the sun don't shine and stick to the topic. It's easy to see your ratings aren't winning any popularity contest. stfu
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Icelander]
#14171101 - 03/23/11 04:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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He's banned already, I think he was a puppet.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant



Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Icelander]
#14171736 - 03/23/11 06:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
You would have to account for homosexuality within the rest of nature and you haven't.
not to mention within our biological kingdom, there's a wide range of variation in sexual chromosomes, more diverse than the strict XX XY female-male dichotomy. i've read that about every one in 100 people are born with anatomically ambiguous genitalia... would love to know how the OP dictates the sanity of their sexual preferences (or even gender identity for that matter).
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: CosmicJoke]
#14171852 - 03/23/11 06:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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CosmicJoke said: would love to know how the OP dictates the sanity of their sexual preferences (or even gender identity for that matter).
Pretty much, if you don't whack it to the same shit he does, you're mentally ill.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14171928 - 03/23/11 06:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I note that despite having asked pages ago, neither the original poster nor anyone else has ever demonstrates how homosexuality is even pathological, much less a mental illness.
Also: lots of people are confusing how genetics work. If gays don't reproduce and gayness is 100% hereditary, this still doesn't conflict. It could be recessive and propogate, it could partially dominant and not be fully expressed in all people, it could be a complex phenotype dependant on several genes, all sorts of things could provide for it.
The mendllian model of one gene per trait is not accurate, especially for complex traits such as behavior. Further, even for those traits with a single gene, the dominant or recessive designation is not necessarily accurate: many traits depend on other factors including other genes, and incomplete dominance is quite common.
All this says nothing about the influence of environment, culture, in compelling gays to mate, straights to be gay, gayness not to be expressed, and all sorts of other things.
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learningtofly said: Ah, Poid, don't forget epigenetics either!
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In biology, and specifically genetics, epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in phenotype (appearance) or gene expression caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence, hence the name epi- (Greek: επί- over, above) -genetics. These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations. However, there is no change in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism; instead, non-genetic factors cause the organism's genes to behave (or "express themselves") differently.
It is my understanding that this is a bit off base: that the genetics of monozygotic twins should have the same genetic information, barring errors in replication. Hence, inherited epigenetic traits should not cause differentiation such as divergent genotypes, et cet.
Do you have some evidence for the proposition that this explains the divergent phenomena discussed?
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Ferdinando said: because they don't need leather bars to be gay think before you post
Are you sure? Do you have some evidence that you can be gay without leather bars? How would you even tell the organism was gay without the leather chaps and all that?
I figured the lack of leather bars meant the forest critters couldn't actually be gay, just bisexual or exerting dominant behavior.
BTW, I like your avatar Ferdinando: nice and simple and pretty.
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mcganky said:
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Poid said:
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mcganky said: well, i'd have to say that when it's really dangerous out there (animals, dying of toothaches, walking everywhere, no refrigeration, etc) there doesn't seem to be as many humans on the earth.
So this means that the more people there are, the safer we are, without limit? 
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mcganky said: since basic knowledge has made it's way to even the third world, and most folks have guns these days, death by lion is rare. death by toothache is rare with a little penicillin. we can avoid the snakes by driving, and eat decent food, most of us. third world food is still better than the first world's food a couple of hundred years ago, thanks to food storage technologies.
So, we can still have all those technologies and also have less people--and we'd be safer IMO because, as you seem to be ignoring for some reason, people can be pretty fucking dangerous.
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mcganky said:
3. in many ways, yes. in a purely darwinian sense, if the dumb are allowed to breed, we become dumber because lack of intellectual prowess is no longer an impediment to survival/reproduction.
please re-read my original out-of-my-ass theory, you seem to have taken much of it out of the context i gave it. no offense.
What context did he take it out of- your ass? Or did it just come out of your ass originally but was placed in a different context? 
Also, please justify your claim that in a darwinian sense if the dumb are allowed to breed we become dumber. a) you suggest we are at equilibrium genetically and somehow preventing the dumb from breeding (which seems plainly false), or are not at equilibrium and trending downward in intelligence which will only be rectified by not "allowing" the dumb to breed. Do you have evidence of this? b) why would the dumb being allowed to breed unimpeded result in the progeny being dumber? Couldn't the dumbness genese be in equilibrium with their allelles such that the rate is not increased? i.e. recessive single dumb/smart gene: heterozygotes mating will produce a stable 1/4 rate of phenotypically dumb. This will not increase due to "letting" them bread, nor would it even be identified and be able to be stopped, as the dumbness is not expressed. Hence, you'd only stop the dumb which would not stop the expression of the dumb phenotype due to heterozygous parents. It might not even create a difference at all depending on the norms of the system (procreation vs phenotype, allele distribution, et cet
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BeverageFace said:
So, you say you are not disagreeing with my proposed theory, and you are saying you don't have a theory of cause, yourself.
So essentially you are talking for the sake of talking. Maybe you should leave the talking to people who actually have an opinion on the topic.
a) what does it matter? Whether or not Poid is opinionated, not, stupid, mean, or whatever has nothing to do with your argument and the claimed defects. At least poid isn't wrong- you on the other hand can't seem to justify what you've said and so appeal to irrelevancies.
b) how is having an opinion preferable? I'd rather people prune the bullshit so we get somewhere than toss another bare declaration they can't defend into the right. This is a philosophy forum: having an opinion as to the merits has nothing to do with whether the criticism of the argument is valid or not.
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durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 29 days
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Quote:
BeverageFace said: Poid. you are unbearable. I now remember why so many people hate you.
If you dont have a stance on this topic, why are you posting? To waste my time arguing against your points that even contradict themselves?
Me: possible cause is sexual abuse you: no, its genetics look! me: if it were genetic it wouldnt be carried forth since carriers in nature wouldnt reproduce, and the ones who nowadays do reproduce, dont produce gay children any more than straights. you: PHENOTYPES me: ok, then why arent identical twins always either both gay, or both straight? you: PHENOTYPES, and environmental factors.
durp, environmental factors like sexual abuse???
Put him on ignore. It makes life so much easier...
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OrgoneConclusion said:
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Studies have shown that gay men have a smaller hypothalamus than straight men.
I wonder if one of those pump thingies would help.
Oh god you are a devilish fiend!! But I like it
What model of pump thingy do you have?
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