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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Icelander]
#14168887 - 03/23/11 09:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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i'll drink to that
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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jebustrist
Stranger


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 79
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: quinn]
#14168977 - 03/23/11 09:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Heterosexuality might be the disease...we're certainly multiplying like some sort of pathogen that is quickly working through it's resources.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Diploid]
#14168988 - 03/23/11 09:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Gay people produce offspring at a slightly higher rate than straight people, but this is offset by a shorter than average lifespan.
I don't think that's true.
The information in his book was a product of his own research, though he doesn't provide raw data.
Perhaps you are right. Baker has credentials, but his work isn't without controversy.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Rahz]
#14169045 - 03/23/11 10:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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What I do think it will be interesting to see where gayness goes in the few hundred years. Too bad I can't stay alive long enough to see...
Up until very recently there was so much social pressure to be straight that gay people married and had kids anyway.
This has changed a lot and will continue to...at least until the muslims take over.
So, if the gay people of the world are free to marry each other and not have kids...and there is a still a bumper crop of new gay kids being born each year to "straight" parents...then what is making them gay?
The argument from the gay camp has been forever that being gay is not a choice. If it's not genetics...and it's not a choice...then WTF is it?
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Cups]
#14169093 - 03/23/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said: The argument from the gay camp has been forever that being gay is not a choice. If it's not genetics...and it's not a choice...then WTF is it?
A curse from God.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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mcganky
Beardo Weirdo

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 59
Loc: FL
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14169142 - 03/23/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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homosexuality CAN be a symptom of a mental illness, but the act or predilection doesn't qualify as such.
it CAN stem from abuse, but not always (or even mostly).
hell, i'm not even sure what gay IS. i've been with men and women both (although i prefer women), but i don't feel particularly gay. hell, compared to some of my more homophobic peers, i'm a fucking stud lumberjack military badass, but i'd be sweet with a cute guy if the mood struck me.
homosexuality is many things, i guess is the point. it's an act, a set of behaviors, or it can be a reactionary stance. i feel it's just one of many somewhat pointless things humans do, like listen to music, give ourselves 'the stranger', or have a favorite color. it could be seen as a facet of a mental illness in certain situations, though, i'd say.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: mcganky]
#14169154 - 03/23/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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How exactly is homosexuality a mental illness? I don't think anyone has actually stated this explicitly.
Could that statement perhaps be a way of saying "I don't like these people because they're different, therefore there must be something wrong with them"?
--------------------
Edited by learningtofly (03/23/11 10:28 AM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: learningtofly]
#14169195 - 03/23/11 10:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said: How exactly is homosexuality a mental illness? I don't think anyone has actually stated this explicitly.
Could that statement perhaps be a way of saying "I don't like these people because they're different, therefore there must be something wrong with them"?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 216
Loc: ontario, canada
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14169484 - 03/23/11 11:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Poid. Go try again to what i posted with some actual arguments, and then we will talk.\
Because already your talk is ignorant. You posted twice about genotypes being the reason homosexuality could be genetic.
However, homosexuals do not often reproduce, which would mean their genes are not passed on. Therefor, there is no genotypes to speak of, because the reproduction process is not happenning.
ALSO, you made the genotype claim again to my mention that when gay men reproduce, they dont produce gay children, as one would expect to see at a higher rate than by straight men, if it were genetic.
So the fact that gay men don't produce gay babies anymore than a straight man, further shows in has nothing to do with genotypes.
Your claims are ridiculous, they dont make sense, and if you want to have a discussion like an adult, then make your position clear.
All you have done so far is "attempt" to attack my position, without making solid claims, or even defining what your position is.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14169535 - 03/23/11 11:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said: Poid. Go try again to what i posted with some actual arguments, and then we will talk.\
Because already your talk is ignorant. You posted twice about genotypes being the reason homosexuality could be genetic.
However, homosexuals do not often reproduce, which would mean their genes are not passed on. Therefor, there is no genotypes to speak of, because the reproduction process is not happenning.

It could be that there are gay genes that exist in both gays and straights which aren't always expressed, and are passed on when people reproduce.
Phenotype - Wikipedia
Quote:
The genotype of an organism is the inherited instructions it carries within its genetic code. Not all organisms with the same genotype look or act the same way because appearance and behavior are modified by environmental and developmental conditions. Similarly, not all organisms that look alike necessarily have the same genotype.
Phenotypes result from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and the interactions between the two.
Not all genotypes are expressed, this is like 7th grade science shit.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: ALSO, you made the genotype claim again to my mention that when gay men reproduce, they dont produce gay children, as one would expect to see at a higher rate than by straight men, if it were genetic.
It could be that both straight and gay people have this "gay gene", and that it is only phenotypically expressed in gays; is this really that hard to comprehend, or do I need to elaborate further?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: So the fact that gay men don't produce gay babies anymore than a straight man, further shows in has nothing to do with genotypes.
No it doesn't.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/23/11 12:06 PM)
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: durantz]
#14169612 - 03/23/11 12:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
durantz said: Yeah and these so called 'homosexual' animals don't go around differentiating themselves from the rest of the species like human homosexuals do...
Not all gay people "come out", or feel the need to tell everyone they know. And there are plenty of insecure straight people who will scream about how straight they are. And mostly all humans try to stand out in some form.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14169625 - 03/23/11 12:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's blatantly obvious that he just has some personal issues with homosexuality.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 216
Loc: ontario, canada
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14169657 - 03/23/11 12:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Poid. Go try again to what i posted with some actual arguments, and then we will talk.\
Because already your talk is ignorant. You posted twice about genotypes being the reason homosexuality could be genetic.
However, homosexuals do not often reproduce, which would mean their genes are not passed on. Therefor, there is no genotypes to speak of, because the reproduction process is not happenning.

It could be that there are gay genes that exist in both gays and straights which aren't always expressed, and are passed on when people reproduce.
Phenotype - Wikipedia
Quote:
The genotype of an organism is the inherited instructions it carries within its genetic code. Not all organisms with the same genotype look or act the same way because appearance and behavior are modified by environmental and developmental conditions. Similarly, not all organisms that look alike necessarily have the same genotype.
Phenotypes result from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and the interactions between the two.
Not all genotypes are expressed, this is like 7th grade science shit.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: ALSO, you made the genotype claim again to my mention that when gay men reproduce, they dont produce gay children, as one would expect to see at a higher rate than by straight men, if it were genetic.
It could be that both straight and gay people have this "gay gene", and that it is only phenotypically expressed in gays; is this really that hard to comprehend, or do I need to elaborate further?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: So the fact that gay men don't produce gay babies anymore than a straight man, further shows in has nothing to do with genotypes.
No it doesn't.
Then why are identical twins where one is gay, the other is straight?
According to you, if it is genetic, and expressed like a phenotype the same as other genes. Then ALL identical twins where there is one homosexual twin, the other MUST be.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace]
#14169666 - 03/23/11 12:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said: Then why are identical twins where one is gay, the other is straight?
Not all organisms with the same genotype look or act the same way because appearance and behavior are modified by environmental and developmental conditions.
On rare occasions, identical twins may express different phenotypes...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens



Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid] 1
#14169701 - 03/23/11 12:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ah, Poid, don't forget epigenetics either!
Quote:
In biology, and specifically genetics, epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in phenotype (appearance) or gene expression caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence, hence the name epi- (Greek: επί- over, above) -genetics. These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations. However, there is no change in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism; instead, non-genetic factors cause the organism's genes to behave (or "express themselves") differently.
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BeverageFace
Beer Baron


Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 216
Loc: ontario, canada
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: Poid]
#14169724 - 03/23/11 12:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Then why are identical twins where one is gay, the other is straight?
Not all organisms with the same genotype look or act the same way because appearance and behavior are modified by environmental and developmental conditions.
On rare occasions, identical twins may express different phenotypes...
exactly poid. you even just said. appearance and behavior is modified by environmental and developmental conditions. You even bolded and underlined it.
That is what is being proposed here. That homosexuality is environmental. and that is what you just conceded.
Thanks for supporting my view.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: BeverageFace] 1
#14169751 - 03/23/11 12:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BeverageFace said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Then why are identical twins where one is gay, the other is straight?
Not all organisms with the same genotype look or act the same way because appearance and behavior are modified by environmental and developmental conditions.
On rare occasions, identical twins may express different phenotypes...
exactly poid. you even just said. appearance and behavior is modified by environmental and developmental conditions.
They are both also genetically influenced.
Quote:
BeverageFace said: That is what is being proposed here. That homosexuality is environmental. and that is what you just conceded.
Ah, so homosexuality has to either be environmentally influenced, or genetically influenced, and cannot be both? False dichotomy much? Like, very much?
Quote:
BeverageFace said: Thanks for supporting my view.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: learningtofly]
#14169758 - 03/23/11 12:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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would you choose to be the one to make the difference between overpopulated and suitably populated? there is essentially nothing negative about gayness
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
Edited by Ferdinando (03/23/11 12:36 PM)
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mcganky
Beardo Weirdo

Registered: 03/20/11
Posts: 59
Loc: FL
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: learningtofly]
#14169759 - 03/23/11 12:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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on a somewhat related note, if genetics (specifically epigenetics) play a role in sexual orientation, i'd imagine they'd have an impact on such phenomenon such as sociopathy, some psychopathy, maybe even autism.
maybe some of these things play a role in 'thinning the herd' when an epigenetic mechanism kicks in. perhaps this function has survived because although it allows for an individual to be evolutionarily crippled in many ways, a thinner, fitter herd is better for the evolution of the species as a whole.
in other words, maybe our population density and seemingly perfect predator free world triggers us to become evolutionarily competitive again through novel ways.
as long as we're all kind of pulling things out of our collective asses, that could start explaining why a characteristic that seems like a genetic liability could persist so long and be so common.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Is homosexuality a mental illness? [Re: mcganky]
#14169776 - 03/23/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
mcganky said: in other words, maybe our population density and seemingly perfect predator free world...
Please elaborate on the emboldened section, thanks.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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