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InvisibleIcelander
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Wrong
    #14166615 - 03/22/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I would say the number one fault with us posters here and by extension with humans in general is our inability to admit that we are wrong.  It's quite rare here for someone to really come out and admit that they were wrong about anything. Even trivial things.  I'm not in any way excluding myself here.
I really don't see how humanity will ever resolve it's differences if we can't easily learn to say "I'm wrong here". And if we can't even do it here how can we expect countries to do it and prevent needless and ongoing wars. How can we proclaim we are on the verge of a revolution in consciousness when we here have such a hard time with this seemingly simple task?

Becker has an interesting take on this. I'm wondering if any of those who have read the book remember it?  It's actually pretty central to his ideas on death anxiety.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14166720 - 03/22/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I always admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong.

It's a good thing I'm always right :smirk:.

just kidding, I'm wrong sometimes


--------------------
Leaving the shroomery forever


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14166731 - 03/22/11 07:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for that quick demonstration of what I'm talking about. :lol::thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: Wrong [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14166733 - 03/22/11 07:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think it's because there are too many men on shroomery and leading countries.  Women are more practical about these things.


--------------------
Leaving the shroomery forever


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14166767 - 03/22/11 07:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

My girlfriends were never wrong.:evil: :shrug:  In my experience they have a very hard time too.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14166861 - 03/22/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well I think humans have gotten themselves way too deep in a system that is so complex we are incapable of sustaining it. There's so much shit going on in the cultural make up we just can't handle it. It's like layers have just built up over time and unpicking all the knots is just an insane task now.

It's funny I don't like to admit I'm wrong in the middle of a debate but very often I'll think about it later and realize I was being stupid as pig shit.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14166922 - 03/22/11 08:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well if that's true we got there cause we couldn't admit we were wrong about anything. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14166962 - 03/22/11 09:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well if that's true we got there cause we couldn't admit we were wrong about everything. :satansmoking:




Fixed.

Quote:








--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14167042 - 03/22/11 09:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ive seen you admit you were wrong.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14167088 - 03/22/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I really don't see how humanity will ever resolve it's differences...




That's only because you have not yet done enough LSD.


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Wrong [Re: DieCommie]
    #14167097 - 03/22/11 09:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah Icelander I agree with you!

It seems like people here just want to argue and ignore other people's comments.

I actually use this forum to learn as much as I can. So I do give credit where credit is due.

The chances of all of us being right 100% of the time are very slim (not saying it's impossible).

So if noone wants to admit to being wrong then something is wrong with this picture...

But there is a problem with this idea of 'right' and 'wrong' because noone actually knows what 'right' is!!
So there may be a perfectly logical or intuitive way to reach the conclusions that everyone on this board has. So unless you are able to communicate in the other persons language (thought patterns) then you are not going to be able to show them the error of their ways...

but then you have the problem of once you do have access to their thought patterns you may see how they are 'right' and you are 'wrong'!!

so unless we can all agree on what method to use to determine what right or wrong is, then there is no way we can actually prove the correctness of someone elses argument.

so perhaps what we should do here on our forum is begin a project to define how we are going to decide what 'right' is, then describe a process for measuring the 'rightness' of an argument.

We would then need to post this in the rules section and if anyone does not follow it then they get banned from the forum.

hehe I'm sure you can see how badly this will turn out :wink:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Wrong [Re: durantz]
    #14167125 - 03/22/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It seems like people here just want to argue




Please elaborate on how to debate without arguing.

This should be good.


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Wrong [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14167129 - 03/22/11 09:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

lol are you trying to trap me into an argument?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Wrong [Re: durantz]
    #14167149 - 03/22/11 09:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

but then you have the problem of once you do have access to their thought patterns you may see how they are 'right' and you are 'wrong'!!





'Right' may not always be definable or known, but quite often, 'wrong' can definitely be known - and without getting into another's head.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Wrong [Re: durantz]
    #14167159 - 03/22/11 09:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

There is no trap. I asked a straight-forward question to help illustrate your ignorance.


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OfflineRevolutionst
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Re: Wrong [Re: durantz]
    #14167330 - 03/22/11 10:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This subject is something I run into often, mostly while discussing religious beliefs. You guys know how that is, haha. Everyone says they've got "the truth". So many variations of that, isn't there? :tongue:

"So unless you are able to communicate in the other persons language (thought patterns) then you are not going to be able to show them the error of their ways...

but then you have the problem of once you do have access to their thought patterns you may see how they are 'right' and you are 'wrong'!!"

This is so true. I like the way you said it. This is something that I find hard to articulate, concisely. Everyone has different perspectives, view points, due to their unique life experiences, emotions, genetics.... a crude example is like everyone wearing different, uniquely colored sunglasses perceiving everything differently.

I think due to this, one person may believe something is right, while another thinks it is wrong. Take for example, weed. Maybe your friend had a terrible childhood with an abusive father who did horrible things to his family, and he also smoked weed.

On the other hand, take for example a different friend. His father brought home the bread daily, loved his family, trained and taught his children to be honest, compassionate, hard workers, intelligent, inquisitive, and so on.

Which child will perceive weed to be wrong, and which will think it permissible - maybe even beneficial? Another crude example, but you guys get my point I hope. =]


--------------------
"Estranged, bastard I am
Never had the reasons why
God has taken me in
Healed my wounds, loved me in my sin"
-Living Sacrifice


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OfflineRevolutionst
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Re: Wrong [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14167381 - 03/22/11 10:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

but then you have the problem of once you do have access to their thought patterns you may see how they are 'right' and you are 'wrong'!!





'Right' may not always be definable or known, but quite often, 'wrong' can definitely be known - and without getting into another's head.





I will bite. =P

When you say 'wrong' can definitely be known, what are you basing right and wrong off of? Society's social rules? Personal morality? A book? The conscious we all have, which some have seared?

I suppose you could say murdering an innocent person is wrong, I would agree. There are fanatical Muslims who would disagree. Then again, I'm sure they don't think those they kill are actually innocent. Point is, there will always be two sides to the coin, always someone out there who will disagree with ya. Always gonna someone who thinks right is wrong is wrong is right, no matter what is being discussed. Ya feel me, man?

Much love. Sorry for the double post, still learning the way these forums work. O_x


Edited by Revolutionst (03/22/11 10:53 PM)


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Wrong [Re: Revolutionst]
    #14167725 - 03/22/11 11:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

ralph waldo emerson, self reliance, been there done that


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibleBlondell_Letrange
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14167902 - 03/23/11 12:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just to clarify:

Are you referring to people that think they are right, but are actually wrong...Or people that know they are wrong and are too stubborn to admit it?

If it is the former, if you are unaware of how you are wrong, how can you admit it?

If it is the latter, then I would say that I guess generally speaking this has relative truth, but on several occassions I have noted people apologising, and or conceding to errors in their own posts.

It seems mostly related to misunderstandings :shrug:


--------------------
:inlove3::inlove3:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Wrong [Re: Revolutionst] * 1
    #14167930 - 03/23/11 12:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No, I was not talking about morality which is merely opinion. "Right is what I do; wrong is what you do!"

If a belief system is internally contradictory or inconsistent, then it cannot possible be true.

If 10,000 religions all claim something different, then we can be 100% certain that at least 9,999 of them are wrong - and probably 100%.

Let's take the whole karma/reincarnation nonsense. Were there 'good' bacteria and 'bad' bacteria 500,000,000 years ago? Or were there just bacteria? If one bacterium was not more morally superior or spiritual than another, then karmically they cannot come back as a multi-celled critter.

Another solid indicator of wrongness is a total lack of methodology to determine some claim or an inability to explain how one came to a certain conclusion. There are 7,9 and 13 chakras depending on whom you talk to. (Refere back the mutual exclusion principle I talked about earlier).Yet they cannot tell you how they came to that number; and when backed into a logical corner, will change their story amdnd mumble something about it being metaphorical.

Yes, there are many things that can be determined to be 100% wrong.


There are many ways to determine wrongness. Rightness is more elusive. Let's say we take the best chess player in the world, be it human or computer. Can we say that his/its strategy is the best possible? No. But we can determine that it is better than the other 6.5 billion people; therefore it more closely approaches the 'right' strategy than any known.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14167944 - 03/23/11 12:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Being delusional or in denial is easier for the ego to deal with than weakening it by admitting fault:shrug:


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: Wrong [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14167965 - 03/23/11 12:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Let's take the whole karma/reincarnation nonsense. Were there 'good' bacteria and 'bad' bacteria 500,000,000 years ago? Or were there just bacteria? If one bacterium was not more morally superior or spiritual than another, then karmically they cannot come back as a multi-celled critter.




Ooooooh good point Orgone! I never thought of that before.


--------------------
Leaving the shroomery forever


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: DieCommie]
    #14168049 - 03/23/11 01:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Ive seen you admit you were wrong.




True but not often enough. And someone who cannot ever admit such would never start this type of thread.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Wrong [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14168051 - 03/23/11 01:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sweetie, all of my points are good points.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14168056 - 03/23/11 01:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
No, I was not talking about morality which is merely opinion. "Right is what I do; wrong is what you do!"

If a belief system is internally contradictory or inconsistent, then it cannot possible be true.

If 10,000 religions all claim something different, then we can be 100% certain that at least 9,999 of them are wrong - and probably 100%.

Let's take the whole karma/reincarnation nonsense. Were there 'good' bacteria and 'bad' bacteria 500,000,000 years ago? Or were there just bacteria? If one bacterium was not more morally superior or spiritual than another, then karmically they cannot come back as a multi-celled critter.

Another solid indicator of wrongness is a total lack of methodology to determine some claim or an inability to explain how one came to a certain conclusion. There are 7,9 and 13 chakras depending on whom you talk to. (Refere back the mutual exclusion principle I talked about earlier).Yet they cannot tell you how they came to that number; and when backed into a logical corner, will change their story amdnd mumble something about it being metaphorical.

Yes, there are many things that can be determined to be 100% wrong.


There are many ways to determine wrongness. Rightness is more elusive. Let's say we take the best chess player in the world, be it human or computer. Can we say that his/its strategy is the best possible? No. But we can determine that it is better than the other 6.5 billion people; therefore it more closely approaches the 'right' strategy than any known.



:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: Wrong [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14168080 - 03/23/11 01:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Sweetie, all of my points are good points.



:blush::smilingpuppy:

No offense but your avatar is a little gross looking.

ty for the sweetie though


--------------------
Leaving the shroomery forever


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14168129 - 03/23/11 01:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
No, I was not talking about morality which is merely opinion. "Right is what I do; wrong is what you do!"

If a belief system is internally contradictory or inconsistent, then it cannot possible be true.

If 10,000 religions all claim something different, then we can be 100% certain that at least 9,999 of them are wrong - and probably 100%.

Let's take the whole karma/reincarnation nonsense. Were there 'good' bacteria and 'bad' bacteria 500,000,000 years ago? Or were there just bacteria? If one bacterium was not more morally superior or spiritual than another, then karmically they cannot come back as a multi-celled critter.

Another solid indicator of wrongness is a total lack of methodology to determine some claim or an inability to explain how one came to a certain conclusion. There are 7,9 and 13 chakras depending on whom you talk to. (Refere back the mutual exclusion principle I talked about earlier).Yet they cannot tell you how they came to that number; and when backed into a logical corner, will change their story amdnd mumble something about it being metaphorical.

Yes, there are many things that can be determined to be 100% wrong.


There are many ways to determine wrongness. Rightness is more elusive. Let's say we take the best chess player in the world, be it human or computer. Can we say that his/its strategy is the best possible? No. But we can determine that it is better than the other 6.5 billion people; therefore it more closely approaches the 'right' strategy than any known.



:thumbup:




:thumbdown:

You missed me entire point earlier. You are making the assumption that logical reasoning is THE ONLY WAY to determine what is right.

There are also different kinds of logic! Which logic are you talking about? And how do you determine which type of logic is 'right'?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14168376 - 03/23/11 03:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Becker has an interesting take on this. I'm wondering if any of those who have read the book remember it?  It's actually pretty central to his ideas on death anxiety.


causa sui project, right?



Quote:

Grapefruit said:



:curbyourenthusiasm:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (03/23/11 06:52 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: Poid]
    #14168532 - 03/23/11 06:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Wrong [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14169139 - 03/23/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

It seems like people here just want to argue




Please elaborate on how to debate without arguing.

This should be good.



:rofl2: You of all people should know the difference between a debate and an argument. An argument is about winning whereas a debate is a process by which both sides each gain a further understanding of an issue; it has nothing to do with winning.


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Wrong [Re: learningtofly]
    #14169187 - 03/23/11 10:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

It seems like people here just want to argue




Please elaborate on how to debate without arguing.

This should be good.



:rofl2: You of all people should know the difference between a debate and an argument.


He never said that there is no difference, nor did he demonstrate that he is unaware of the difference.


Quote:

learningtofly said:
An argument is about winning...


Argument - Wikipedia
Quote:

In philosophy, an argument is a claim, or set of claims, supported by one or more defensible reason(s). In logic, this can take the form of one or more declarative sentences (or "propositions"), known as the premises, along with another meaningful declarative sentence or proposition, known as the conclusion




Quote:

learningtofly said:
...whereas a debate is a process by which both sides each gain a further understanding of an issue; it has nothing to do with winning.


Debate - Wikipedia
Quote:

Debate...is a formal method of interactive and representational argument. Debate is a broader form of argument than logical argument, which only examines consistency from axiom, and factual argument, which only examines what is or isn't the case or rhetoric which is a technique of persuasion. Though logical consistency, factual accuracy and some degree of emotional appeal to the audience are important elements of the art of persuasion, in debating, one side often prevails over the other side by presenting a superior "context" and/or framework of the issue, which is far more subtle and strategic.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Wrong [Re: Poid]
    #14169215 - 03/23/11 10:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Wikipedia is wrong. :shrug: I'm not home right now but I have a textbook from a couple years ago from an Argument and Debate class and it explains it pretty clearly, I'll show you their definition.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Wrong [Re: learningtofly]
    #14169265 - 03/23/11 10:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Generally, I would trust wikipedia over a text book.  Especially in a subject I'm not proficient in.  Anybody can write a textbook, but wikipedia has somewhat of a peer review process.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Wrong [Re: learningtofly]
    #14169267 - 03/23/11 10:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This is truly sad. What do YOU call the presentation of logical statements supporting a premise?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Wrong [Re: learningtofly]
    #14169270 - 03/23/11 10:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I have a textbook from my Philosophy 1: Critical Thinking college class, I'll post the relevant info in a second...


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Wrong [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14169300 - 03/23/11 10:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
This is truly sad. What do YOU call the presentation of logical statements supporting a premise?



There is a difference between an argument and the process of arguing, at least in such vague terms.

Domestic abuse is sometimes the result of an argument, would you consider that to be the process of exchanging logical presentations of statements supporting premises?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Wrong [Re: learningtofly]
    #14169338 - 03/23/11 11:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Can I get a simple, straight answer without any clutter before we procede?


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Re: Wrong [Re: learningtofly]
    #14169349 - 03/23/11 11:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Arguments

As we said, when you present a reason for thinking a claim is true, you give an argument. Recently, student named Kevin asked one of us if we thought brushing your teeth could really help you lose weight. Kevin had heard a report about a study published in a Japanese scientific journal that said that encouraging people to brush more frequently could help prevent obesity. Japanese researchers had studied almost 4,000 people and found that people who brushed three times a day were much more likely to be slender; and the student concluded from this that brushing your teeth could help you lose weight. When we looked up the media report of the Japanese study that's what it had concluded, too.
      Now, you may not think of scientific data such as those contained in the Japanese study as an "argument,", but here the data were given as a reason for thinking that brushing could help you lose weight, so they count as an argument. As arguments go, this one actually is poor, but it is an argument nevertheless. As you can see, an argument can be long and involved. Einstein didn't just pull "E = mc²" out of his hat; he had complex theoretical reasons that require a lot of mathematics and physics to comprehend, and together they amounted to an argument that E = mc².
      At the other extreme, every professor has heard: "My grandmother just died," offered as an excuse for having missed class. Here again, something is used as a reason for thinking something else is true, and that makes it an argument. My grandmother just died; therefore I should be excused for missing class, is the reasoning. Arguments can be short and simple like this one, or long and involved like Einstein's, or anywhere in between. It's not word count that determines whether something is an argument, but function. If one claim is given as a reason for thinking another claim is true, you have an argument; if it isn't, you don't.
      An unfortunate minor complication must be mentioned at this point. Logicians think of an argument as including not merely the reason for thinking a claim is true, but also the claim itself. From this perspective an argument has two parts: the supported part, which is called the conclusion, and the supporting part, which is called the premise. The premise of an argument, in other words, specifies the reason (or reasons) for accepting the conclusion. The statement "I should be excused because my grandmother just died" has the required two-part structure. "My grandmother just died" is the premise, and "I should be excused" is the conclusion.
      And thus we arrive, finally, at a technical definition of the most important ingredient in critical thinking. An argument consists of two parts, and one part (the premise or premises) is supposedly a reason for thinking that the other (the conclusion) is true. Critically thinking about a claim that is not self-evidently or obviously true or false requires evaluating the arguments both for and against it.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Wrong [Re: Poid]
    #14169357 - 03/23/11 11:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, i know what an argument is but I am talking about arguing which is not synonymous with debating


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Re: Wrong [Re: learningtofly]
    #14169380 - 03/23/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)



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Re: Wrong [Re: learningtofly]
    #14169387 - 03/23/11 11:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Still waiting... :waits:

Are you a man or a penguin?


--------------------


Edited by OrgoneConclusion (03/23/11 11:13 AM)


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Re: Wrong [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14169397 - 03/23/11 11:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

this is a pretty stupid argument... i mean debate... no wait :confused:


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dripping with fantasy


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Re: Wrong [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14169403 - 03/23/11 11:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe he's a manguin? Or a penguan? :grin:



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14169672 - 03/23/11 12:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sometimes one needs courts to decide if one is wrong or right.
The super hyper supreme court is not invented yet, so why should I admit I could be wrong only if others think so and have no evidence ? :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14169681 - 03/23/11 12:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for the next example of complete denial. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14169713 - 03/23/11 12:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I generally don't believe in the concept of right and wrong.

If all of our knowledge and science is based on Empirical Evidence, then we don't know for sure it's actually right.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: The Giant Mole]
    #14169737 - 03/23/11 12:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Get real.  I love this shit.  If you say, using common math, that 2+2= 9  then you're wrong.  You can't even honestly address the OP which is exactly what I'm pointing out here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14169765 - 03/23/11 12:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Denial of what ? That it makes more sense in survival to be right than to be wrong ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineThe Giant Mole
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14169771 - 03/23/11 12:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not trying to be hostile, I'm just saying that math was based on Empirical Evidence, which is based on our observations. Saying all of our observations are correct is a tad egocentric.


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Re: Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14169774 - 03/23/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It doesn't always make more sense and especially in the long run.  I can't believe you really can't see that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: The Giant Mole]
    #14169780 - 03/23/11 12:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Giant Mole said:
I'm not trying to be hostile, I'm just saying that math was based on Empirical Evidence, which is based on our observations. Saying all of our observations are correct is a tad egocentric.





Keep trying to avoid the topic. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14169869 - 03/23/11 12:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It doesn't always make more sense and especially in the long run.  I can't believe you really can't see that.



Maybe I'm playing some role here...
But in general I really like to get ripped my false believes away from me...from whatever or whoever it might be. I personally have problems to get rid of them, because I have no insight into them, only through personal experience, that's why I search that confrontation in general.
That what I said is only, as long as nobody can really proof me wrong, then I don't see any purpose to admit that I am :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineThe Giant Mole
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Re: Wrong [Re: The Giant Mole]
    #14169882 - 03/23/11 12:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

As for the topic, I do believe people have problems admitting when they are in the wrong.


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Re: Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14169900 - 03/23/11 12:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
It doesn't always make more sense and especially in the long run.  I can't believe you really can't see that.



Maybe I'm playing some role here...
But in general I really like to get ripped my false believes away from me...from whatever or whoever it might be. I personally have problems to get rid of them, because I have no insight into them, only through personal experience, that's why I search that confrontation in general.


That what I said is only, as long as nobody can really proof me wrong, then I don't see any purpose to admit that I am :wink:



This has squat to do with my OP


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14169951 - 03/23/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So who proves who is wrong anyways.
It's the surrounding environment, as represented through our local laws and governments. They are different and influenced by the local givens. In the same way, but the other direction it is tried to find a 'general law' like U.S.A. or Europe and make supreme laws. That's the way on our planet, who decides what's right or wrong.
So that's not squat my dear :heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14169987 - 03/23/11 01:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

One often knows when they are wrong but not always, duh.  No one else has to be right for someone to be wrong and know it.  Your so called points have what to do with the fact that at times we know we are incorrect and cannot admit to it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14170035 - 03/23/11 01:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Is it really so ? Why would one admit that one is incorrect if there is at least a little doubt left ?
Then one just is inhonest to oneself and lies to oneself, making no ground for further investigations.
Self corruption.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14170471 - 03/23/11 02:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Is it really so?

Yes, it's really so.

But I was mistaken to think you could see it.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14170476 - 03/23/11 02:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yah, normaly I am blind to lies. :shrug:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14170481 - 03/23/11 02:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The ones you tell yourself. You're off the hook.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14170488 - 03/23/11 02:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Self deception is not my subject, sorry.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14170495 - 03/23/11 02:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just your reality.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14170508 - 03/23/11 02:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's an act of desperation. I'm lucky that I had not been in such a serious state so far.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Wrong [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14170517 - 03/23/11 02:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I guess so.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14170530 - 03/23/11 02:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I always say, first I would cut my hair :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14170619 - 03/23/11 02:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

Becker has an interesting take on this. I'm wondering if any of those who have read the book remember it?  It's actually pretty central to his ideas on death anxiety.




As I recall it can be summed up with- It's a slippery slope.


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What's up everybody?!


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Re: Wrong [Re: Cups]
    #14171009 - 03/23/11 03:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Arguing about what is an argument... don't we have better things to do here???


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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Re: Wrong [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14171025 - 03/23/11 04:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ummmm...*scratches head* like what?


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Re: Wrong [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14171037 - 03/23/11 04:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Eat, shit and fuck?


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


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Re: Wrong [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #14171169 - 03/23/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Can't we argue while doing all that? :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Wrong [Re: Icelander]
    #14174113 - 03/24/11 03:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm right = you're wrong.


Over in the political forum the entire topic of threads is often thrown out because every one is looking for the 'you're wrong' to defend their 'I'm right'.


In the real world this is why so much middle management sucks. And it causes all sorts of problems between departments of business and government. I've seen it first hand over and over. For example the designers think they're right in their design and then the people that figure out how to make it realize that its going to cost way too much money to make it and then they fight about it, or production makes it and quality control says its crap.


Another way of thinking about the issue is the difficulty in seeing things from more than one perspective. As soon as you see something from a new perspective you're likely to challenge your previous opinions. And if you're not a total retard, as soon as you realize an opionion is wrong you look for a new perspective in order to see things right.


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Re: Wrong [Re: Freedom]
    #14180349 - 03/25/11 03:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Saying man as a society is more close, or less close to enlightenment is like saying deer are more close or less close as a society to enjoying a game of backgammon. The average deer has never known backgammon. He may have seen it played, he may have even played, but because he doesn't know what it is, he doesn't know what he's done.

Eventually you stop looking at what you're doing and start looking at what you're apart of, and if you're not apart of anything you feel is constructive....what you're doing is moot, no matter how great your individual contribution is. A great swordsman is just cannon fodder in a shitty army.

Dunno why, but it just struck my fancy to look up the old shroomery and hit a post or two. Its been a while, and as such, consider this a big freaking crow flying across your path and screaming "CAW"


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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