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Invisible3hree1ne3hree
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San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing)
    #14165419 - 03/22/11 03:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Hello,
I would like to propagate a san pedro on its side, but am a bit lost as to how I should go about doing this. I've googled it and found a limited amount of info on it.
Could anyone offer any general tips or info?
Also, I have one specific question:
Does the cutting have to be cut at both ends? My san pedro cutting appears to be more broken off(than cut off) at the base of where it branched out, and the tip is intact.
 

tl;dr How do I grow this sideways?:squirrelnut:


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Invisible3hree1ne3hree
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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14166832 - 03/22/11 08:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

shameless self bump.


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14167537 - 03/22/11 11:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It doesn't have to be cut at both end. The tip will curve as it grows to be pointing straight upward. However, without intervention you likely won't see any other pups until the growing tip is cut off.

Use a more sharply draining mixture than you normally would for a Trichocereus to discourage rot since more of the epidermis will be in contact with the soil. Also be sure to water a little more carefully.

It should relatively quick to throw out roots; they seem to like to side root. Don't plant too deeply 1/3 buried is great.


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14167556 - 03/22/11 11:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How long is that section you have there?

If its long enough you could get three cuttings out of it.

Cut the tip off (about 5 or 6" worth) and let is callous and plant it vertically.

Then if your remaining piece is long enough, cut it in half and plat both pieces horizontally,after letting them callous.

Or if it isnt long enough for 3 pieces just make your tip cutting a bit longer than 5 inches to make sure it has enough


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Invisible3hree1ne3hree
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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: aNeway2sayHooray]
    #14169499 - 03/23/11 11:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

naum said:
It doesn't have to be cut at both end. The tip will curve as it grows to be pointing straight upward. However, without intervention you likely won't see any other pups until the growing tip is cut off.

Use a more sharply draining mixture than you normally would for a Trichocereus to discourage rot since more of the epidermis will be in contact with the soil. Also be sure to water a little more carefully.

It should relatively quick to throw out roots; they seem to like to side root. Don't plant too deeply 1/3 buried is great.



That sounds interesting! would it pup at the other end though?
Quote:

aNeway2sayHooray said:
How long is that section you have there?

If its long enough you could get three cuttings out of it.

Cut the tip off (about 5 or 6" worth) and let is callous and plant it vertically.

Then if your remaining piece is long enough, cut it in half and plat both pieces horizontally,after letting them callous.

Or if it isnt long enough for 3 pieces just make your tip cutting a bit longer than 5 inches to make sure it has enough



It is 8.5 inches, thank you both for the help! Now im stuck trying to decide!:tongue:


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14169568 - 03/23/11 11:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Cacti only pup at the base.  If it is from the middle of the cactus it is a branch  and from the tip is an offset.

  After all if you wanna learn the botany of it then you may as well do it right because you wouldnt call the roots  a flower would you???


Edited by cpw1971 (03/23/11 11:58 AM)


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14169633 - 03/23/11 12:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

As I said not without intervention. It will only pup from the other end in my experience once the tip is cut and even then it might just pup a couple of times where you cut it.

There is a way to induce pups using a chemical which regulates plant growth--that could give you several pups along the stem.


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: naum]
    #14170770 - 03/23/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

like wich chemical?


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: AIRDOG]
    #14170820 - 03/23/11 03:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)



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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: Cactii]
    #14170885 - 03/23/11 03:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)



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Invisible3hree1ne3hree
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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: naum]
    #14175150 - 03/24/11 11:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thank you for the help everybody!


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Edited by 3hree1ne3hree (03/24/11 12:32 PM)


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Invisible3hree1ne3hree
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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14175562 - 03/24/11 12:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Alrighty, I've cut it into 2 parts. The tip I will root vertically, while the lower half is going horizontally.

I am wondering.. what kind of growth can I expect from the broken off base of the branch? Will there be buds on that end? Or am I going to have to cut it even shorter?:confused:


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14176029 - 03/24/11 02:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I would cut an inch off the base end for pure visual reasons once it was a log root base, I would also plant the piece i cut off the bottom once it has calloused, it might grow a pup it might not if you dont plant tho it definitely won't pup.

I have just done my very first Peyote button graft onto a 2 year old pedro seedling, i cut it low and got a tip and a log to cultivate, i'll load up some pics once i get them in the ground.

:goodluck:


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14176046 - 03/24/11 02:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

is that a Bridgesoid?? it has similar characteristics to my Bridgesoid


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Invisible3hree1ne3hree
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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14176102 - 03/24/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GGTBod said:
I would cut an inch off the base end for pure visual reasons once it was a log root base, I would also plant the piece i cut off the bottom once it has calloused, it might grow a pup it might not if you dont plant tho it definitely won't pup.

I have just done my very first Peyote button graft onto a 2 year old pedro seedling, i cut it low and got a tip and a log to cultivate, i'll load up some pics once i get them in the ground.

:goodluck:



Are you suggesting that it would bud even if I left the base on? And yes, I plan on planting the tip. Maybe even for a future graft! :wink:
I would love to see the pictures, especially one of the log.:grin:
Quote:

GGTBod said:
is that a Bridgesoid?? it has similar characteristics to my Bridgesoid



I don't know, it was sold to me with 4 other(very large) cuttings as San Pedro. I decided to save it for planting. I have never heard the term Bridgesoid, could you elaborate?


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14176189 - 03/24/11 02:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Trichocereus Bridgesii also known as Echninopsis Bridgesii is a type of San pedro cacti that is regularly reported as being a much higher high due to the flesh containing mild Monamine Oxide inhibitors aswell as mescaline.

Mono Amine oxides are naturally present in our guts and blood and break down things like tryptamines and enzymes, these inhibitors slow this down and in some cases stop it for a period of time, this allows you to absorb more of the alkaloid or tryptamine through the blood brain barrier intensifying the experience.

here is a shot of one of my Bridgesii it is about 8 years old i bought it as a small seedling and then cut it to a stump to make a cuttings each time it has grow a bud i have repotted and burried the growth point of the cacti and make in central in the new pot, i tried to load another pic of the cuttins I have taken over the years but i have ran out of space, next time it grows up i am eating some, I shockingly have neglected this as a possible eater favouring the more infamous varieties i grow, im a sucker for a placebo booster to my buzz :blush:



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Invisible3hree1ne3hree
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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14176442 - 03/24/11 03:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Oh, I thought you meant some type of hybrid with Pachanoi and Bridgseii genetics. heheh
But that is certainly a beautiful specimen you've got there. :datass:
I too have heard Bridgesiis are stronger (I've also heard they have more of the various alkaloids that are in Lophophora Williamsii?). I really wonder if there is anything to this.

Do you say mine looks Bridgesoid because of how the bumps along the ribs where the areoles are? Mine is definately thirsty and yellowing a bit.
(By the way, I took your advice and cut an inch off the base)


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14176622 - 03/24/11 03:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

GGTBod, I see no bridgesiod characteristics in that one. Probably mislabeled seed unfortunately. I suppose it could be could be a hybrid--I have scop./pachbridg. which looks very similar to pachanoi except for the rib shape.

3hree1ne3hree, your pictures show PC pachanoi.

Edit: Fixed typo.


Edited by naum (03/24/11 05:36 PM)


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: naum]
    #14176827 - 03/24/11 04:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You think mine is not Bridgesii?


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14176847 - 03/24/11 04:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

3hree1ne3hree said:
Oh, I thought you meant some type of hybrid with Pachanoi and Bridgseii genetics. heheh
But that is certainly a beautiful specimen you've got there. :datass:
I too have heard Bridgesiis are stronger (I've also heard they have more of the various alkaloids that are in Lophophora Williamsii?). I really wonder if there is anything to this.

Do you say mine looks Bridgesoid because of how the bumps along the ribs where the areoles are? Mine is definately thirsty and yellowing a bit.
(By the way, I took your advice and cut an inch off the base)





yeah it was the bumps between the aereoles that made me think it looked similar to mine



last years Bridgesii seedlings, this si their second growing season


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Invisible3hree1ne3hree
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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: naum]
    #14177003 - 03/24/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

naum said:
GGTBod, I see no bridgesiod characteristics in that one. Probably mislabeled seed unfortunately. I suppose it could be could be a hybrid--I have scop/pach which looks very similar to pachanoi except for the rib shape.

3hree1ne3hree, your pictures show PC pachanoi.



How do you know? Are you saying that it has no entheogenic value?


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Invisible3hree1ne3hree
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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14177031 - 03/24/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GGTBod said:
Quote:

3hree1ne3hree said:
Oh, I thought you meant some type of hybrid with Pachanoi and Bridgseii genetics. heheh
But that is certainly a beautiful specimen you've got there. :datass:
I too have heard Bridgesiis are stronger (I've also heard they have more of the various alkaloids that are in Lophophora Williamsii?). I really wonder if there is anything to this.

Do you say mine looks Bridgesoid because of how the bumps along the ribs where the areoles are? Mine is definately thirsty and yellowing a bit.
(By the way, I took your advice and cut an inch off the base)





yeah it was the bumps between the aereoles that made me think it looked similar to mine



last years Bridgesii seedlings, this si their second growing season



They are gorgeous! why are they so close together?


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14177055 - 03/24/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

When i sowed the seeds i just scattered and these grew together and i left them that way for a year then i did not want to damages the roots so i just repotted them together in a very large pot

Yours definitely looks active to me

I only said it looked like my Bridgesii based on comparisons to my cacti, if you compare your cacti to either of the pics i put up of my bridgesii or the pic below which is one of my pachanoi from the same batch of seeds which would you say it looks most like, althom like you say that could be with it being taut and wanting a drink



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Invisible3hree1ne3hree
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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14177106 - 03/24/11 04:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GGTBod said:
When i sowed the seeds i just scattered and these grew together and i left them that way for a year then i did not want to damages the roots so i just repotted them together in a very large pot

Yours definitely looks active to me

I only said it looked like my Bridgesii based on comparisons to my cacti, if you compare your cacti to either of the pics i put up of my bridgesii or the pic below which is one of my pachanoi from the same batch of seeds which would you say it looks most like, althom like you say that could be with it being taut and wanting a drink





They look very cool growing together like that. Do you think they like it?
Also how can one tell if a cactus is active or not without personally testing its alkaloid levels?:wink:


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14177204 - 03/24/11 05:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Only way i have found is to eat it.

Over here everyone sells them as cacti with no mention of the entheogenic side of it, the seeds are usually sold with origin information but until you grow it and test who can say.

I get my seed from a company who show cacti at Royal Horticultural Society flower shows across UK, i was totally humbled when they asked to use a shot of my Lopho's as an example of a mature plant on their sales site


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Invisible3hree1ne3hree
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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14177247 - 03/24/11 05:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I had the chance to sample one of the cacti of the bunch I got, and it was definately active. But they could be from totally different mother plants.
Haha thats a great story, you should tell it to your other cacti before you tuck them in at night.  :biggrin:


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14177464 - 03/24/11 05:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

GGTBod;
Yes, the first one you posted doesn't look like a bridgesii.

Those you grew yourself definitely look bridgesiod.

That 'T. pachanoi 9cm' looks absolutely cuzcoid.

3hree1ne3hree:
PC pachanoi gets bashed a lot, but it certainly is active, a fast grower, and relatively hardy.


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: naum]
    #14177533 - 03/24/11 05:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I dunno why San Pedro gets bashed so much. It's probably because people don't study their sources enough and get some really bummer cactus.

Ive always used the same source and have had nothing but great stuff. I love SP's.

Ive got a little family growing, mostly Pedro's and a few bridgesii's. Personally I think Pedro's look alot better and are more fun growing and handling (those little spine are a lot easier to deal with when re-potting and such).

I to am curious about horizontal growing. Sounds interesting but the benefits are unclear to me as of now. Once my specimen count doubles... I'll all over this horizontal idea !


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: naum]
    #14177558 - 03/24/11 06:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I also love Sp never ate a weak one yet 12 -16 hours tripping everytime from eating anywhere around 200grams of flesh harvested at end of dormancy.

It could be that it has just had its first watering of the year or like you say a crossbread that m akes it not look like the other Bridgesii i have, the pachanoi is definitely from very reliable sources as mentioned above, many people see the long spines and say some form of Torch

This is a quote from the nursery owner in regards to what he constantly gets asked about his pachanoi

"We get lots of questions about length of spines. The plants we sell do have spines. There are spineless and short-spined forms around, but these are uncommon. We have been growing pachanoi from seed now for over 30 years, from reliable sources, we sow between 1000 and 10,000 seeds a year and we have never had a spineless seedling! You will find a lot of nonsense about pachanoi on the internet. Our plants are pachanoi, but if you order you will get spines."

Like i said earlier they show cacti at places like kew gardens and Royal Chelsea Flower show so i am sure they know their stuff, the pride themselves on the standards they set which others aspire to achieve

Another quote from the owner

"Cacti have been my hobby for a long time now and I have been growing them commercially for over 30 years, initially in Holton-le-Clay in North East Lincolnshire and, for the last 12 years, in Morton in Lincolnshire. Along with my wife, Linda, I exhibit our plants at major flower shows throughout the country and over the years we have won many gold medals for our displays, including nineteen gold medals from the Chelsea Flower Show. As well as the display we have a wide variety of plants for sale at shows or, if you prefer, you could visit our nurseries and choose from over 700 varieties of cacti and succulents on sale in our greenhouses"

I trust my source but it is amazing how many different variations there are out there going under "umbrella" names


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14177718 - 03/24/11 06:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

3hree1ne3hree said:
They look very cool growing together like that. Do you think they like it?





I think they love it, they have been with each other right from germination and as you can see in the pic they look very healthy, these are being grown for the purpose of eating so as it gets to the point where the 3 of them are causing difficuties for each other they will be reduced to stumps


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14178774 - 03/24/11 09:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Hey guys

    A Trichocereus Bridgesii and Echinopsis Bridgesii are 2 totally different cacti. When reneaming them they had to use Echinopsis Lagenformis for the new name of Trichocereus Bridgesii. :cool:


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: naum] * 1
    #14179917 - 03/25/11 01:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

naum said:
GGTBod;
Yes, the first one you posted doesn't look like a bridgesii.

Those you grew yourself definitely look bridgesiod.

That 'T. pachanoi 9cm' looks absolutely cuzcoid.

3hree1ne3hree:
PC pachanoi gets bashed a lot, but it certainly is active, a fast grower, and relatively hardy.






I agree 100%



GGTBod: That cactus grower doesn't know what he's talking about and I don't care where he shows his plants. He's wrong. Even his explanation of why his so called "pachanoi" have long spines reaks of bullshit. Sorry to say it in that way but it's the truth. If you go and compare your specimens to other named columnars you will see that yours are what naum suggests.


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: karode13]
    #14180020 - 03/25/11 01:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

There are alot of pics around the traps of seedlings that look much like that long spined one and all the seeds where purchased as pach.
I think I have read a thread some where that it was implied that they where mislabeled seeds and it wasn't the seller it was the collector.
I will try and dig up the thread in question.
In my opinion 1st one is pach 2nd is bridg and the 3rd peruvian/coz but they are all still babies and have probably not shown there true form as yet

Cheers
Got


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GoOnThen]
    #14180111 - 03/25/11 02:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

All very interesting, most important thing to me has been everything i have eaten that i have bought or grown from him has been very potent


Edited by GGTBod (03/25/11 02:29 AM)


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14180175 - 03/25/11 02:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I've recently been purchasing a lot of columnar cacti seed from

WorldSeedSupply from over the big water there, is this a reliable supplier from your side of the water in regard to genetics and origins? Oh and of course potency :lol:


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod] * 1
    #14181419 - 03/25/11 10:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry we've hijacked your thread, 3hree1ne3hree.

Keep in mind the a lot of the confusion regarding Trichocereus started with people like Karl Kinze Karel Knize [sometimes Karl Knize] (google him + Trichocereus) selling mislabeled seed and live specimens many years ago. From those mislabeled specimens and seeds, seeds were produced by European and US nursery men and labeled according with the 'original' names. Many generations of this and a lot of the seed out there isn't what it claims to be by no fault of the grower.  This is probably the case with your source and it's the problem with buying seed from people who don't specialize in Trichocereus or at least provide photos of mother plants. The fact that most Trichocereus are self-infertile also complicates the matter as open pollination led and still leads to unlabeled and unknown hybrids. All of those are major reasons the genus is such a Gordian knot.

The best seed comes from people who make their own and are interested about the issue of Trichocereus taxonomy.

In my mind, Sacred Succulents is probably the best vendor source for Trichocereus seed in general at the moment. They've been studying the genus for almost two decades now. They sell wild collected seed with collection information and photos. If the species of that wild collected seed is uncertain it is sold as 'Trichocereus sp. BK.......' or 'Trichocereus validus? NL.......' They sell seed they produce themselves including hybrid crosses. If an unlabeled seed pod pops up they are honest about it and sell it as 'Mother X ???'.

The other sources of seed which are stellar are some of the members at the Australian board SAB which are making hybrids between well documented Australian clones like Psycho 0, Bruce, Eileen, Super Pedro, etc. In terms of potency, these crosses are probably the best bet. All of this member produced seed is resold by at least three of the Australian vendors and I believe at least two of them ship world wide. Likewise, there have been several rounds of seed from non-Australian forums in the past several years which have been equally as interesting. On all forum sourced seed I've had 95%+ germination rates. As forum members' collections grow, I suspect this will become the best source of seed except wild collected seed.

Growing seed for potency is silly--are you going to grow 25-100 specimens to maturity and then bioassay every single one? Even in wild populations, the potency seems to be highly variable. If potency is the main concern, growing bridgesii seems to never disappoint, but then you miss out on the chance to find specimens of pachanoi and peruvianus which contain 5% mescaline w/w of dry flesh.

While it's not applicable to your location, growing for cold tolerance, water tolerance is a much wiser, or lack of spines is much wiser if one is located in a zone where Trichocereus might stand a chance. I live in an area which is 9b in name, but is much more extreme with hurricanes, floods, ~80 inches of rainfall annually,  the occasional sub 20 F freeze, 105 F summers, and long periods of drought. Terscheckii do pretty well here, but pachanoi and peruvanius are victims of freezes and bridgesii of too much water. That's why I'm particularly interested in terscheckii X (bridgesii, peruvianus, pachanoi, scopulicola) crosses. Once the seed grown specimens prove themselves to nature or to my eye, clones will be passed around and I imagine bioassays will begin.

WSS is a great sponsor/vendor, but he's relatively new and doesn't grow his own seed. I don't know the source of his seed and I doubt he wants to divulge it, but WSS is not someone I would personally buy Trichocereus seed from if I was concerned about origin.

Edit: I'm also interested in cuzco crosses as my seed grown cuzco (sold as a peruvianius of course) has taken everything the climate has thrown at it with only a cup on the tip during sub 25 F freezes.

Edit: Fixed KK's name. Thanks for the correction, Mostly Harmless.


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Edited by naum (03/25/11 09:41 PM)


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: naum]
    #14182081 - 03/25/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

naum said:
Sorry we've hijacked your thread, 3hree1ne3hree.




I don't mind at all, I'm learning so many new things!
I've already figured out all I needed to know about log growing (now im just waiting for the cuts to callous over).


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Edited by 3hree1ne3hree (03/25/11 01:12 PM)


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14182114 - 03/25/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yup i think that in iteself is a fine example of the confusion regarding trichocereus, thats what i meant earlier in the topic when i said the only way i can tell if it is strong is by eating it. I remember years ago everyone started raving on about Torch (T.Peruvianus) being much stronger than other pedro genus and the rumour spread like fire on gasoline, the Torch's i have seems similar to my pachanoi, then who can really say if they are torch or pachanoi. Its the main reason i focus more on does it work rather than the name cos really the only thing we have to go on regarding the names is the word of the person/company we got them from in the first place.

If i gotta eat more than 200grams of flesh (from a cacti older than 5 years from seed/since being on its own roots) harvested after my 5 months dormancy (just before first watering) then it does not stay in my collection and does not get propagated.

I always knew there was a lot of confusion about trichocereus but i only realised the scale of the confusion after talking with people on here, almost puts me off them, lucky they grow quick


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: naum]
    #14182133 - 03/25/11 01:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

naum said:
Sorry we've hijacked your thread, 3hree1ne3hree.

Keep in mind the a lot of the confusion regarding Trichocereus started with people like Karl Kinze (google him) selling mislabeled seed and live specimens many years ago. From those mislabeled specimens and seeds, seeds were produced by European and US nursery men and labeled according with the 'original' names. Many generations of this and a lot of the seed out there isn't what it claims to be by no fault of the grower.  This is probably the case with your source and it's the problem with buying seed from people who don't specialize in Trichocereus or at least provide photos of mother plants. The fact that most Trichocereus are self-infertile also complicates the matter as open pollination led and still leads to unlabeled and unknown hybrids. All of those are major reasons the genus is such a Gordian knot.

The best seed comes from people who make their own and are interested about the issue of Trichocereus taxonomy.

In my mind, Sacred Succulents is probably the best vendor source for Trichocereus seed in general at the moment. They've been studying the genus for almost two decades now. They sell wild collected seed with collection information and photos. If the species of that wild collected seed is uncertain it is sold as 'Trichocereus sp. BK.......' or 'Trichocereus validus? NL.......' They sell seed they produce themselves including hybrid crosses. If an unlabeled seed pod pops up they are honest about it and sell it as 'Mother X ???'.

The other sources of seed which are stellar are some of the members at the Australian board SAB which are making hybrids between well documented Australian clones like Psycho 0, Bruce, Eileen, Super Pedro, etc. In terms of potency, these crosses are probably the best bet. All of this member produced seed is resold by at least three of the Australian vendors and I believe at least two of them ship world wide. Likewise, there have been several rounds of seed from non-Australian forums in the past several years which have been equally as interesting. On all forum sourced seed I've had 95%+ germination rates. As forum members' collections grow, I suspect this will become the best source of seed except wild collected seed.

Growing seed for potency is silly--are you going to grow 25-100 specimens to maturity and then bioassay every single one? Even in wild populations, the potency seems to be highly variable. If potency is the main concern, growing bridgesii seems to never disappoint, but then you miss out on the chance to find specimens of pachanoi and peruvianus which contain 5% mescaline w/w of dry flesh.

While it's not applicable to your location, growing for cold tolerance, water tolerance is a much wiser, or lack of spines is much wiser if one is located in a zone where Trichocereus might stand a chance. I live in an area which is 9b in name, but is much more extreme with hurricanes, floods, ~80 inches of rainfall annually,  the occasional sub 20 F freeze, 105 F summers, and long periods of drought. Terscheckii do pretty well here, but pachanoi and peruvanius are victims of freezes and bridgesii of too much water. That's why I'm particularly interested in terscheckii X (bridgesii, peruvianus, pachanoi, scopulicola) crosses. Once the seed grown specimens prove themselves to nature or to my eye, clones will be passed around and I imagine bioassays will begin.

WSS is a great sponsor/vendor, but he's relatively new and doesn't grow his own seed. I don't know the source of his seed and I doubt he wants to divulge it, but WSS is not someone I would personally buy Trichocereus seed from if I was concerned about origin.

Edit: I'm also interested in cuzco crosses as my seed grown cuzco (sold as a peruvianius of course) has taken everything the climate has thrown at it with only a cup on the tip during sub 25 F freezes.



Im reading like some kind of word junkie! :tongue:
However I looked up this Karl Kinze fellow and couldnt find much. Is that for sure how his name is spelled?


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: 3hree1ne3hree]
    #14182214 - 03/25/11 01:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Karel Kníže


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: naum]
    #14183174 - 03/25/11 06:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry we've hijacked your thread, 3hree1ne3hree.

Keep in mind the a lot of the confusion regarding Trichocereus started with people like Karl Kinze (google him) selling mislabeled seed and live specimens many years ago. From those mislabeled specimens and seeds, seeds were produced by European and US nursery men and labeled according with the 'original' names. Many generations of this and a lot of the seed out there isn't what it claims to be by no fault of the grower.  This is probably the case with your source and it's the problem with buying seed from people who don't specialize in Trichocereus or at least provide photos of mother plants. The fact that most Trichocereus are self-infertile also complicates the matter as open pollination led and still leads to unlabeled and unknown hybrids. All of those are major reasons the genus is such a Gordian knot.

The best seed comes from people who make their own and are interested about the issue of Trichocereus taxonomy.

In my mind, Sacred Succulents is probably the best vendor source for Trichocereus seed in general at the moment. They've been studying the genus for almost two decades now. They sell wild collected seed with collection information and photos. If the species of that wild collected seed is uncertain it is sold as 'Trichocereus sp. BK.......' or 'Trichocereus validus? NL.......' They sell seed they produce themselves including hybrid crosses. If an unlabeled seed pod pops up they are honest about it and sell it as 'Mother X ???'.

The other sources of seed which are stellar are some of the members at the Australian board SAB which are making hybrids between well documented Australian clones like Psycho 0, Bruce, Eileen, Super Pedro, etc. In terms of potency, these crosses are probably the best bet. All of this member produced seed is resold by at least three of the Australian vendors and I believe at least two of them ship world wide. Likewise, there have been several rounds of seed from non-Australian forums in the past several years which have been equally as interesting. On all forum sourced seed I've had 95%+ germination rates. As forum members' collections grow, I suspect this will become the best source of seed except wild collected seed.

Growing seed for potency is silly--are you going to grow 25-100 specimens to maturity and then bioassay every single one? Even in wild populations, the potency seems to be highly variable. If potency is the main concern, growing bridgesii seems to never disappoint, but then you miss out on the chance to find specimens of pachanoi and peruvianus which contain 5% mescaline w/w of dry flesh.

While it's not applicable to your location, growing for cold tolerance, water tolerance is a much wiser, or lack of spines is much wiser if one is located in a zone where Trichocereus might stand a chance. I live in an area which is 9b in name, but is much more extreme with hurricanes, floods, ~80 inches of rainfall annually,  the occasional sub 20 F freeze, 105 F summers, and long periods of drought. Terscheckii do pretty well here, but pachanoi and peruvanius are victims of freezes and bridgesii of too much water. That's why I'm particularly interested in terscheckii X (bridgesii, peruvianus, pachanoi, scopulicola) crosses. Once the seed grown specimens prove themselves to nature or to my eye, clones will be passed around and I imagine bioassays will begin.

WSS is a great sponsor/vendor, but he's relatively new and doesn't grow his own seed. I don't know the source of his seed and I doubt he wants to divulge it, but WSS is not someone I would personally buy Trichocereus seed from if I was concerned about origin.

Edit: I'm also interested in cuzco crosses as my seed grown cuzco (sold as a peruvianius of course) has taken everything the climate has thrown at it with only a cup on the tip during sub 25 F freezes.




Well naum you have saved me some time.:smile:
I agree whith all of the above and I would like to say that your explanation of this tricky subject is to be commended. How do I give this man 5 shrooms?

GGTbod
In regard to growing for potency I think the only way is to grow from cuttings as it is faster and you know what you are getting every time.
Some of the aussie bridgesii clones such as Eileen and Psycho0 are proven fat and fast growers and they produce a lot of pups.In one season a couple of mother plants can produce a large amount of flesh if thats what you are into.
I personally just love the plants and I am collecting as many different clones and crosses that I can find including planting seeds from some interesting crosses produced by SAB members.
The one plant that every one wants to cross is Eileen but for some reason it doesn't seem to flower but I am sure one day some one will work out what it problem is and get it to flower. A cross with Eileen and super pedro or Eileen and Psycho0 would be really cool.
What I am trying to say is finding the right plant and propagating it is the way to go. Planting a heap of seeds that you have purchased as pach and then waiting all that for them to mature and then finding out they are not what you wanted would be depressing where in those 5 years you could have a number of massive bridgesii plants producing kilos of material each year of a guaranteed quality.

Cheers
Got


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GoOnThen]
    #14183255 - 03/25/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I agree totally, i am doing both of these things, any cacti i find that is potent i propagate and i have been doing this since my first trich, ive got many clones of the same trich that i have already sampled the flesh from. But due to how beautiful the bridgesii and the other trich seeds ive planted made me decided to plant many many seeds literally in their thousands and see where my hobby leads.

Once they start to get a decent size it will be at the least very interesting but my main focus is always on my Peyotes.

Altho the thread was hijacked the original topic was totally covered and the rest of the trich knowledge is good to know


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14183359 - 03/25/11 07:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry if that sounded pushy but the nature of forums is you really dont know where the other person is at and tend to make assumptions.
If you are growing Trichs with the same dedication that you show with your Lophs I am sure you have or will have some stunning plants.

Cheers
Got


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GoOnThen]
    #14183496 - 03/25/11 07:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

All good man, i am forum wise and understand how it is, we are all sharing our own perspectives and we are all passionate in our own ways about our plants and the experiences with them. I am always of the thought that i know so little and anything i think i know is based purely on perspective, perspectives change and so does understanding. If this does not happpen we know and learn nothing and might as well still be running around in the belief that the world is flat and the universe revolves around us and the all might God created all just for us little monkeys who he made in his own image along with the rest of all creation in 7 days ap[proximately 12'000 years ago. :crazy2:

I used to be a proper forum-whore on the speedcore/hardcore music scene years ago, now I read many forums but I only post here and that is because over the years i've lost count of how many pieces of priceless perspective i have put to good use from this site usually via google search and they have always been spot on, because of this  i decided that i was in debt to the site and should share some of my perspectives back with everyone.

I do hope one day to have as potent a collection of tricho's as i do my Loph's, cheers for the posivibes


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14188898 - 03/26/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GGTBod said:


I used to be a proper forum-whore on the speedcore/hardcore music scene years ago, now I read many forums but I only post here and that is because over the years i've lost count of how many pieces of priceless perspective i have put to good use from this site usually via google search and they have always been spot on, because of this  i decided that i was in debt to the site and should share some of my perspectives back with everyone.

I do hope one day to have as potent a collection of tricho's as i do my Loph's, cheers for the posivibes




Hell yeah, you like hardcore ? what era of hardcore or scene were you involved in ?


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: CounterCulturest]
    #14189794 - 03/27/11 12:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

94 to modern day, used to a Rezerection baby back in the 90's, raved all over Europe especially Holland and Germany, check my Youtube channel it is all videos i've shot and edited over the years at various events big and small

http://www.youtube.com/user/ggtbod?feature=mhum#p/u/0/8WO3hUsGthY

Are you a hardcore fiend?


Edited by GGTBod (03/27/11 12:19 AM)


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Re: San Pedro Log Method (Horizontal Growing) [Re: GGTBod]
    #14193648 - 03/27/11 06:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)


There we go!
Freshly planted base and tip. Im waiting a little longer for the log portion to dry. The base is very short, do you think it will have buds?
Also, any suggestions?


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