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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14160542 - 03/21/11 05:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

great thread coaster... thanks

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14160590 - 03/21/11 06:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

3 b2s return to Missouri from their 11,500-mile round trip

The Vice Admiral Yesterday Insisted Gaddhafi wasn't a target.
Today he is, one of his houses is rubble.

Ghaddafi: "Your people are against you. There are demonstrations everywhere in Europe and the U.S. against this aggression on the innocent Libyan people. The people are with us. Even your people are with us."


Ghaddafi: "We will win the battle. Oil will not be left to the USA, France and Britain."


:coasterheart:


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14160911 - 03/21/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Remember Yesterday when Vice Admiral Bill Gortney said, "I can guarantee that Gaddhafi is not on our targeting list"

and now his palace is leveled :shoosh:


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OfflineReposadoXochipilli
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14161019 - 03/21/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

im sure it was just a lil oopsys, they surely didn't mean it  :makewar:


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Invisiblebryguy27007
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: ReposadoXochipilli]
    #14161284 - 03/21/11 08:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

This is actually happening? Wow.

Nice you have you back Coaster.

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Offline13.step
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14163604 - 03/22/11 09:15 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Coaster, why the hardon for Gaddhafi? It wasn't his palace that got leveled it was a command center near his compound, the nutcase lives in a tent. If the means to whatever end need that fuckhead removed from power then that is clearly a good thing.


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OfflineYoushouldknowabc
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: 13.step]
    #14163696 - 03/22/11 09:48 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:facepalm3:

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Offline13.step
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Youshouldknowabc]
    #14163806 - 03/22/11 10:20 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Why so genocidal?


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Coaster]
    #14163848 - 03/22/11 10:28 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
Remember Yesterday when Vice Admiral Bill Gortney said, "I can guarantee that Gaddhafi is not on our targeting list"
and now his palace is leveled




Can you provide link to this video. I will reverse it. Thanks Coaster.

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OfflineApostle
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: 13.step]
    #14163877 - 03/22/11 10:34 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

13.step said:
Coaster, why the hardon for Gaddhafi? It wasn't his palace that got leveled it was a command center near his compound, the nutcase lives in a tent. If the means to whatever end need that fuckhead removed from power then that is clearly a good thing.



i see no hard on


just facts


we helpin britian get that oil nukka

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Invisibletrekie
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Apostle] * 1
    #14163944 - 03/22/11 10:50 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

How can we afford a third war.
Congress didnt vote on this.

OBAMA: "The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.

As Commander-in-Chief, the President does have a duty to protect and defend the United States. In instances of self-defense, the President would be within his constitutional authority to act before advising Congress or seeking its consent."
:picard:


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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.


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InvisibleP-O
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: trekie]
    #14163998 - 03/22/11 11:09 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)


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Offline13.step
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: Apostle]
    #14164033 - 03/22/11 11:16 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

So what? You seriously think Gaddhafi should be left to his murdering ways? And how do you imagine britain is going to get the oil? Steal it? The people of Lybia will sell it to them, the same people who want Mr. Fuckhead pan-africa dude to get the fuck out and let them go about their democratic ways...

Of course there are a lot of economical and political reasons for this operation but for once it actually saves innocent lives. Is there anybody here that thinks that letting an unstable dictator murder entire cities just because they are not under his direct control should be tolerated? That would be some grade A delirious pseudo-liberal-hippie-bullshit.


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Invisibletrekie
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: 13.step]
    #14164075 - 03/22/11 11:23 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)



look at all those people we are saving. I see maybe 3 military vehicles there rest are civilians.

This is a war calling it anything else is bullshit.
We have no business in a civil war. Who says our side is right?
So easy to dehumanize an enemy but we arent killing Qaddafi ,
We are rather killing poor Libyans who just happened to be on the wrong side




Yep and the rebels they just want peace and freedom doesnt look like there about to torture this guy





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I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.


Edited by trekie (03/22/11 11:26 AM)

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Offline13.step
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: trekie]
    #14164126 - 03/22/11 11:34 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Those pictures are misleading, those cars are empty, they seem abandoned, might be/might not be...no way to know for sure...

Agreed no place in civil wars, but bombing a city and threatening to kill everybody in it just because it is under rebel control is not civil war, it's the G-word...:hehehe:

I really don't get this, why are people opposed to this operation? It might not be all that ethical if you want to look at it that way, but what would the alternative be? I would really like to know


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: 13.step]
    #14164160 - 03/22/11 11:42 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The alternative would be to do what we do in (just about) every other African civil war - nothing :shrug:

I'm still on the fence on this once though - I don't have access to the same information that the people making the decisions do..


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¿Check out some art m8?


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Offline13.step
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: twighead]
    #14164282 - 03/22/11 12:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

that's actually a very good point...other african nations sadly don't have the economic and geopolitical importance Libya has...


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: 13.step] * 1
    #14164305 - 03/22/11 12:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

13.step said:
Those pictures are misleading, those cars are empty, they seem abandoned, might be/might not be...no way to know for sure...




Dude, no offence, but get your head out of your ass. Pics of charred bodies of Lybian soldiers inside vehicles targeted by US/European planes and missiles were released within hours after the initial attack. You thought the allied forces were neatly asking Ghadaffi's soldiers to step away from their vehicles for safe bombing? This is a war, there's no doubt about it.

The main thing the UN needs to decide on now is if, and how, they/we are going to fight it on the ground. Because if 'we' are willing to put a stop to Ghadaffi's antics and side with the rebels, we're not going to get there with some air attacks. Ground presence will be necessary to take out targets that cannot be attacked from the sky because they are too small, not recognizable or surrounded by civilian canon fodder.

There are roughly three scenarios for the following days:
1. Don't expand the operation with a ground force. This bridge is to some extent passed, as army personnel of various allied nations have already set foot on Lybian soil in the past few weeks to perform covert and not-so-covert operations. In particular, I'm referring to the attempted and sometimes successful helicopter rescues of Western people from Tripoli and the presence of UK special forces on the ground for the purpose of target marking. But the UN could decide that there will be no ground war in which the allies participate, and that would essentially meaning that the initiative is given back to Ghadaffi and the rebels are most likely wiped out by his army.
2. Go for Iraq 2.0 and put soldiers on the ground. Iraq, Afghanistan, former Yugoslavia; it's going to be one of those messy guerrilla wars again, with the main enemy officially wiped out within a couple of weeks, but his supporter destabilizing the country for years to come.
3. The middle ground option: supply the rebels with weapons and limited on-ground support. This would come down to fueling the civil war and siding with the rebels. There is no turning back already if it comes to our diplomatic credit with Ghadaffi (we've destroyed any we had), so the rebels _must_ win. So we'll either keep fueling the civil war until the rebels succeed, which may take a long time due to a lack of training and tactical experience, or we could at some point revert to scenario 2 anyway. It's interesting to see that the Russians seem to be less quick in burning their credit with Ghadaffi, which is an interesting feat of realpolitik. Note that the Chinese are keeping out of this, which in the end probably gives them the best position in obtaining any oil from Lybia after the allies have fucked up in one way or another.

I'm curious as to what scenario will be chosen. Or perhaps there's a 4th scenario?

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Offline13.step
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: koraks]
    #14164426 - 03/22/11 12:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

None taken, it seemed you said they where killing civilians (you kinda did) of course they're going to kill soldiers, but a soldier is fair game, on either side, it was about the civilians, Gaddhafi began indiscriminately bombing Benghazi from the sea, which is a shithead move anyway you turn it.

I'm too really curious what will happen after this, maybe the rebels are strong enough to defeat Gaddhafi-forces on the ground with "international" air-support and then they will be forever grateful to the western powers that helped them and that would mean cheap oil and another ally in the middle-east(-ish). And right now I think I have shit-stains in my toilet that are more valuable than Gaddhafi's diplomatic credit.

Anyway, wouldn't this intervention be considered active realpolitik as opposed to the Russians adopting a passive form of it?


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: Operation Odyssey Dawn [Re: 13.step]
    #14164440 - 03/22/11 12:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

13.step said:
So what? You seriously think Gaddhafi should be left to his murdering ways? And how do you imagine britain is going to get the oil? Steal it? The people of Lybia will sell it to them, the same people who want Mr. Fuckhead pan-africa dude to get the fuck out and let them go about their democratic ways...

Of course there are a lot of economical and political reasons for this operation but for once it actually saves innocent lives. Is there anybody here that thinks that letting an unstable dictator murder entire cities just because they are not under his direct control should be tolerated? That would be some grade A delirious pseudo-liberal-hippie-bullshit.




Look back at history, we have often gone after dictators only to be caught in civil wars. This is turning into a civil war quickly. The west is Gadaffi loyalists, and the east rebels. It is becoming more and more divided and harder to pick sides. It is also unclear what the motives of the rebels are, and if they would install their own dictator.

About the oil, we have often in the past and now in Iraq, helped in the regime change of governments. It is not enough for the United States to ever just take out a leader and leave the people to create their own democracy. The USA isn't just for freedom of other nations, it consistently helps get presidential leaders elected using large amounts of economic assistance. This isn't true democracy. In turn, the United States puts a leader up who only becomes a dictator later,, just look at Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Iran. They don't want true democracy, they want America democracy of a certain future dictator who will give oil breaks to the US for helping prop up their government.

And on top of all of that, this is illegal without congressional declaration of war.

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