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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Blair and Bush caught lying
    #1416402 - 03/29/03 02:55 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Blair said two Brits had been executed. Bush agreed they had been murdered. Talk about lying with a straight face...

DON'T ADD TO ANGUISH OF HERO'S FAMILY

Mar 29 2003

THE stepfather of Luke Allsopp cannot understand why Tony Blair claimed that the young sapper had been executed.

Sadly, there can be only one reason. The Prime Minister was using the slain hero as propaganda to demonise Saddam Hussein.

But there is no need to do that. No one believes Saddam is anything other than a bloodthirsty monster who would stop at nothing.

Evil though he is, he did not order Luke to be executed. The sapper's family were told by his colonel that he had died in action and they were visited four times by Luke's sergeant, who said the same.

Defence minister Adam Ingram came close to apologising to the Allsopp family yesterday but, like Downing Street, he continued to pretend there was a possibility that Luke had been executed.

The only "evidence" is that the young sapper's protective clothing and helmet were missing. But they will have been taken by poorly equipped Iraqi troops after Luke was dead, not before.

His stepfather, Michael Pawsey, is disgusted by what Tony Blair said. "Our boy died with honour. He died fighting," he said.

Of course Luke Allsopp died with honour, whatever happened to him. He died fighting for his country.

But Mr Pawsey's anger is understandable at a time when his family are suffering from shock and grief.

Tony Blair may have claimed Luke was executed because he has become desperate.

The war is not going according to plan, as generals on both sides of the Atlantic admit.

President Bush and his belligerent defence chief, Donald Rumsfeld, thought Iraq would be a pushover. That they would sweep to victory in days.

Instead they have found resistance much tougher than they expected. They are having to pour in more troops.

The war is going to last much longer, which inevitably means many more lives will be lost.

There is no satisfaction in that. On the contrary. Once this ill-advised conflict had begun, every right-thinking person wanted it over quickly, with little loss of life.

Tony Blair must be rattled by the prospect of a long, dirty and costly war. Why, otherwise, would such a normally assured leader make such a clumsy attempt at black propaganda?

It is not in the Prime Minister's power to speed an end to the war.

But he could at least not again make the suffering worse for the families of slain British heroes.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12788049&method=full&siteid=50143


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Anonymous

Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416408 - 03/29/03 03:11 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

politicians lying? hmm... intriguing...


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416413 - 03/29/03 03:18 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Further reading of articles from that source suggest that it may have been a case of jumping to conclusions more that a flat out lie.
"Mr Ingram said: "Information available to us did indicate the soldiers may have been executed."Claiming Mr Blair's remarks were in the context of what was known about Saddam, he said the language used was "to point up our knowledge of the depravity of that regime."


Another article from that source...

TERROR AS IRAQIS FIRE ON KIDS Mar 29 2003




From Gethin Chamberlain In Basra, Southern Iraq


THE crowd was halfway across the concrete and steel span of the bridge when the mortar rounds started falling.

Terrified men, women and children fleeing Basra yesterday ran screaming to escape machine-gun fire from the Iraqi positions.

A thousand people, maybe more, raced for their lives. A young woman fell, hit by shrapnel, as a pick-up truck broke cover and charged forward, the machine gun mounted on its roof spewing bullets at the crowd.

On the British side, a tank lurched forward, the gunner training his sights on the truck a few hundred yards ahead. One shot and the Iraqi truck was blown apart, the three people in it killed in an instant. The Black Watch fired back as mortar shells fell around the British positions.

At last the civilians made it safely across the bridge, hands raised as they ran towards the British troops, ducking as the British guns moved round to cover their escape.

They began moving along the road in the direction of Al Zubayr. They may take shelter there or camp out in the countryside.

A young woman, badly hurt, was plucked to safety by a British vehicle and driven back across the lines. Medics rushed to tend the wounds of others caught in the fire. Then came the clatter of rotor blades and two Lynx helicopters appeared, hovering over to the right, just visible between the concrete pillars holding up the bridge.

They hung stationary in the air before releasing their missiles, guiding them into the target on the other side of the Shatt Al Basrah canal, then peeling away.

On the Iraqi side of the canal, the missiles struck two positions manned by the Sadayeen Hussein, the militia holding out in the besieged city.

In the turret of his Warrior armoured vehicle, Lt Col Mike Riddell-Webster, commanding officer of the Black Watch, raced back to the British positions.

The crowd had appeared at about 8am, he said, desperate to flee the city. British tanks had held them at the far bank before the decision was taken to let them cross.

"We gave permission for them to come through, but there was no firing then," he said.

"The people were overjoyed when we let them through. They were blowing kisses and waving their hands in thanks.

"As they came across the bridge, the Iraqis opened up with 50mm mortar fire from the southern edge of an estate near the bridge. The intent was clearly to stop their own people moving across.

"Then a pick-up with a machine gun mounted on the back came down the road and opened fire on our troops and the civilians. The machine gun was firing into the crowd. One of our tanks fired back and destroyed it. Any time we moved between our vehicles, more fire came in, hitting the vehicles. One of our lads had a bullet rip through his smock.

"When people came across the bridge, they had their hands up. They were scared of us as well. They don't know what is going on, but they are more scared of the Ba'ath Party."

On the far side of the bridge, 200 or more civilians who could not get across sheltered beside the road, too terrified to move.

Behind them, back in the city, huge plumes of black smoke drifted eastwards from the fire pits filled with oil lit by the Iraqi defenders. Across oily lagoons of stagnant water beside the canal, people scurried for better cover.

In a sandbagged observation post littered with spent bullet cases at the edge of the bridge, Major Lindsay MacDuff said it was the second time the Iraqis had opened fire on their own people trying to escape the city. He said: "On Thursday afternoon the Iraqis fired mortars at us and at the civilians, but this is the first time they have just tried to target the civilians alone.

"We can shelter in our vehicles, but we can't get all the civilians in. You can't get 200 people in the back of a Warrior."

The thud of British mortars punctuated his words. There was a last defiant rattle of automatic fire from the enemy, then their weapons fell silent.

Major MacDuff has been camped out on the edge of Basra for five days, organising the raids designed to sap the resistance of the gunmen and encourage the civilian population to rise up against the Iraqi regime.

"We're keen to go in but we haven't got the orders to go," he explained. The major said local people are being frightened into continuing the resistance.

"The population is forced to supply manpower for the militia by literally having a gun placed at their relatives' heads. They either play ball or lose their nearest and dearest.

"We only hope the message gets through that we are here to offer them a lifeline."

Not far away, an Iraqi brother and sister were scarred for life by razor-sharp shrapnel in the village where they had been playing.

They were treated by the RAF's tactical medical team after coming under fire by unknown forces.

The five-year-old boy had serious chest wounds and a large cut over his right eye. The two-year-old girl had stitches to her left leg.



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1416468 - 03/29/03 04:37 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Further reading of articles from that source suggest that it may have been a case of jumping to conclusions more that a flat out lie.

No, politicians arn't 5 year olds. Unless you are sure of something you don't try and make a propaganda point of it in a world televised press conference.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416471 - 03/29/03 04:45 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Dead is dead. Oh well. These fucktard politicians lied about the whole reason for the war all along. Oh well.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416492 - 03/29/03 05:09 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Further reading of articles from that source suggest that it may have been a case of jumping to conclusions more that a flat out lie.

No, politicians arn't 5 year olds. Unless you are sure of something you don't try and make a propaganda point of it in a world televised press conference.




I think you just argued my point for me. He must have been convinced it was the truth or he would not have tried to use it. Thus he was not lying.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1416494 - 03/29/03 05:12 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

He must have been convinced it was the truth or he would not have tried to use it.

How do you work this out? Don't you think he could have been lying to make a propaganda point?

You sure have a lot of faith in Blair and Bush.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416497 - 03/29/03 05:17 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You just said it yourself and I quote "Unless you are sure of something you don't try and make a propaganda point of it"


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1416599 - 03/29/03 09:18 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You're misunderstanding. You don't do it UNLESS you're lying.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416604 - 03/29/03 09:31 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yyou don't try and make a propaganda point of something unless you are sure it is a lie?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1416608 - 03/29/03 09:37 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

No. You said Blair said it because he was "jumping to conclusions" and not lying. I pointed out that you don't "jump to conclusions" in world televised press conferences unless you have an ulterior motive.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416620 - 03/29/03 09:49 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

My point is that that doesn't mean it is a lie. A mistake, stupid, unprofessional, whatever but without getting in his head and knowing his intention, you can't say it was a lie.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1416625 - 03/29/03 10:01 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

mntlfngrs writes:

My point is that that doesn't mean it is a lie. A mistake, stupid, unprofessional, whatever but without getting in his head and knowing his intention, you can't say it was a lie.

Alex can. He regularly proclaims errors in knowledge to be lies, and awkward phraseology as well. He has accused me of lying at least five times so far. You'll get used to it eventually; it's just part and parcel of the patented Alex123 hyperbolic debating technique -- doesn't mean anything.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1416747 - 03/29/03 12:50 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

A mistake, stupid, unprofessional, whatever but without getting in his head and knowing his intention, you can't say it was a lie.

Depends how honourable you think Blair and Bush are. Bush jumped in and said "They were definately murdered" when I doubt he's even vaguely familiar with the story in the first place.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: Phred]
    #1416750 - 03/29/03 12:53 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Alex can

Getting back to the point pink rather than your usual melodramatics...

So you believe it was an innocent mistake? Saying the opposite side is executing your soldiers in the middle of a war?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Blair and Bush caught lying [Re: Xlea321]
    #1416758 - 03/29/03 01:00 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

My father has always been fond of the saying, "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance." I don't know if I agree entirely with this saying, but believe it certainly is possible that the politicians jumped to conclusions. Tho it is equally possible that they outright lied.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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