Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8  [ show all ]
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus"
    #14162878 - 03/22/11 02:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

In my time I've studied, practiced and believed in a few different religions. Most notably Buddhism and different paths of Hinduism.

I've found that I agree with a lot of different concepts which formulate these two religions. However I do not agree with the concept of a "Master" or "Guru". One needs mentors when they're first starting out and information to get them started, but not authoritarian figures.
No one has a hold over truth, and there are no holy books.
Only collections of writing and poems.

Most importantly, the path within is the path within, not into someone else's idea of truth - but the truth inside.

:peace:


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Edited by ahchela (03/22/11 02:11 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineusulpsychonaut
Male

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 2,814
Loc: Northland, New Zealand. Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14162921 - 03/22/11 02:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Masters and Symbolic sacraments never worked for me.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14162942 - 03/22/11 02:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

No one has a hold over truth




Really? The Buddha, Jesus, Muhammud, Shankara, Rumi, Hazif, etc. You do not believe they found truth?

Quote:

Most importantly, the path within is the path within, not into someone else's idea of truth - but the truth inside




Are you suggesting truth is subjective? Is the truth within me any different then it is within you?

Quote:

No one has a hold over truth, and there are no holy books.





Agreed although I believe some books can be consider more holy then others in terms of their usefulness.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14162957 - 03/22/11 02:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Did they find truth? You tell me if you've met any one of them.
What is truth? The finality of it which is proposed to be found by them?

My original statement was that no one is the master of anyone elses universe, the individual is the master of their own universe.
Thats freedom in my understanding.
Who are these people who claim to be 'the way'?

I am not a guru so I won't tell you what to think or try to sell you my book, but I state again my opinion or subjective understanding.
The only guru is the self.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJoolz
Male

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 3,614
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14162962 - 03/22/11 02:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I believe in respecting those much wiser than you, of course, and listening to their wisdom. I also believe truth is subjective, and goes from person to person. Really, saying that you are "the way" seems very obnoxious to me. Maybe "a way", but I don't believe in "the way".


--------------------
Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Joolz]
    #14162976 - 03/22/11 02:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Concur, teachers are neccessary, but not masters.

Personally I have had many teachers and respect many of them, there are people I have met who could see very far. Though I would never compare myself to anyone else, such would be limiting.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Joolz]
    #14162981 - 03/22/11 03:00 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Did they find truth? You tell me if you've met any one of them.
What is truth? The finality of it which is proposed to be found by them?






I'v many of their words such as those of Jesus and I consider them to be incredibly brilliant, inspiring and beautiful and I understand that without any force he conquered more men then any general ever could in the history of men, delivering great ideals and values to mankind. I acknowledg the great significance of this.

The Buddha was also a logical genius and delivered incredible discourses involving the nature of reality.

Quote:

What is truth? The finality of it which is proposed to be found by them?





It's more so about what isn't true then what is true, you cannot point out the truth and say there it is. However you can point out what is false.

A master or teacher is useful for any mundane part of life. The spiritual path is the highest ideal and ultimate goal of life. It is uncharted territory - the question is how couldn't a master be useful?


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJoolz
Male

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 3,614
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14162990 - 03/22/11 03:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the question is how couldn't a master be useful?




If you limit yourself to being equal to your master.


--------------------
Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Joolz]
    #14163002 - 03/22/11 03:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Or you realize they weren't sent by God? That they are not the sole distributor of truth?
People flock to leaders, I understand the paternal instinct.

But I have no master.
I'll study the words of those I consider intelligent, and I'll integrate what comes into being from that.
But I have no master,  I am my own man.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14163017 - 03/22/11 03:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


I'll study the words of those I consider intelligent, and I'll integrate what comes into being from that.
But I have no master,  I am my own man.




Thats a good attitude and will serve you well for a long time. You seem to think accepting a master denotes weakness, which I believce is true for many many people, just look at India. Hundres of millions of people who cannot think for themselves flocking to false Gurus, its a terrible shame.

I however believe their are particular reason why someone is needed to help you on the final states on the path of gnosis. These reasons cannot be understood with ordinary logic or "common sense" as they are only understood when you are actually closer to enlightenment. IMO anyway.. Meher Baba gives some solid explainations as to why a master is useful. He however states that one can make serious advances under their own efforts, such as Sri Aurobindo.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163028 - 03/22/11 03:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Heres an interesting segment from the book 'Essentials of Metaphysics' by Christopher Ott.

(the general point of this few paragraphis is that intellectual knowledge can only take one so far and we cannot necessarily depend upon our intuition to be correct either)

"How do we know our logic about the primary and secondary qualities is right, when it is already established that intuitions used to form logic have no sure justification independent of experience
of those intuitions? From a purely intellectual point of view we simply don’t. The way that contemplatives have traditionally dealt with their own limitations is to seek a teacher or examine the testimony of scriptures. Plato learned from Socrates, Aristotle from Plato. Socrates was a master. Spiritual inquiry divorced from respect of the perfect masters and the Avatar is barren and
bound to be fruitless and frivolous. Shankara interpreted the Upanishads. Meher Baba learned from Upasni Maharaj, Maharaj from Sai Baba. There is no being a maverick on the path of gnosis.

Someone once wrote to Meher Baba about a scientist who was keeping a monkey brain alive by feeding it blood from a donor monkey in a grotesque and cruel manner. He claimed this proved the soul of the monkey was in the brain. This was in 1967. Baba asked that the scientist be sent a copy of God Speaks and that he write to him immediately. The correspondence has not survived. This is all I can think of to say. One can only read God Speaks, the Vedas, the scriptures of the great traditions, or seek a master directly. All this that I am writing, right or wrong, is in one way or another no more than an interpretation of God Speaks, with an eye to shedding light on certain scientific and metaphysical points, and integrating those points into a cohesive spiritual metaphysics that might be of use to others."


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163042 - 03/22/11 03:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

One can leave the body and travel inner worlds without a master.
One can commune with spirit or the force of life, without a guide.

If one is trully far, why would they need a master?
Masters are for students.

I'm no master, but I certainly don't need one either. That is the individuals perrogative and I see no reason to put another man in a position to limit my freedom.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14163077 - 03/22/11 03:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

One can leave the body and travel inner worlds without a master.
One can commune with spirit or the force of life, without a guide.

If one is trully far, why would they need a master?
Masters are for students.





Travelling inner planes is one thing but becoming enligtened is another. The spiritual path becomes more difficult as you progress on it. According to Meher there is an infinite abyss between the 6th plane and the final plane the 7th where one becomes one with God. It is primarily at the 6th plane where one needs God to become one with God. Jesus was one with God and that is why he is the path the truth and the light. These are my beliefs anyway.

"I'm no master, but I certainly don't need one either. That is the individuals perrogative and I see no reason to put another man in a position to limit my freedom."

"In the beginning the mind grumbles, Why should I obey someone? But Hafiz consoles the mind by saying, On Mind! This bondage to the
Master alone can give eternal Freedom. The chosen ones of the Perfect Master obey Him implicitly. He who becomes the perfect 'slave' becomes a Perfect Master."

_______________


"The journey seems infinitely long while you are passing through
the dream-experiences of reincarnation and the six planes of
involution, until finally you merge into yourself to emerge as Self.
But the journey is after all no journey: it is simply the momentum
of your urge to awaken from the Dream and get established in the
reality of the God-state of Infinite Consciousness. To awaken
means to consciously experience the sound-sleep State of God.
When you awake you find that the Great Dream containing all

the varied illusory aspects of dreaming, has vanished for ever.
Heaven and hell as well as all the planes vanish within your Self,
to remain as nothing. In this Awakened State, there is no scope
for anything besides you - the Self, the Existence eternal and
infinite.

This is the only Experience worth experiencing and aspiring after.
To gain this Experience you have to become as dust at the feet of
the Perfect Master - which amounts to becoming as nothing. And,
when you become absolutely nothing, you become Everything
."

http://www.ambppct.org/meherbaba/BooksByMeherBaba.php


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163094 - 03/22/11 04:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"You can only get to a certain point before you need me, without me thou efforts are in vain."

I don't trust anyone more than myself


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14163122 - 03/22/11 04:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Do you think that as a rule, others cannot be trusted? atleast as equally as yourself?


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163129 - 03/22/11 04:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
"In the beginning the mind grumbles, Why should I obey someone? But Hafiz consoles the mind by saying, On Mind! This bondage to the
Master alone can give eternal Freedom. The chosen ones of the Perfect Master obey Him implicitly. He who becomes the perfect 'slave' becomes a Perfect Master."





Quote:

soldatheero said:
Do you think that as a rule, others cannot be trusted? atleast as equally as yourself?





It makes more sense to me to trust intuition over the word of another. I've had gurus but once I questioned the need for them, I realized that I no longer needed them

I do trust people to a certain extent, but people lie. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I've never been offered evidence of a gurus divinity or appointment.

In my experience, having an authority figure only hinders my growth. It is comforting in trying to leave the body, to think that an oversear is watching and indeed someone who can leave the body can meet you and watch over you. That doesn't mean they are ordained in any way


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Edited by ahchela (03/22/11 04:48 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163247 - 03/22/11 06:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Really? The Buddha, Jesus, Muhammud, Shankara, Rumi, Hazif, etc. You do not believe they found truth?

No more than anyone else can discover in their own lives. All these people were taught by others and then built on their own experiences.  Same as anyone else.  It's very easy for people to flock to frauds too and proclaim them as saints and gurus.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163256 - 03/22/11 06:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'v many of their words such as those of Jesus and I consider them to be incredibly brilliant, inspiring and beautiful and I understand that without any force he conquered more men then any general ever could in the history of men, delivering great ideals and values to mankind.

Now you're just making things up that sound good to you. Jesus if he existed and what he said he actually said did not conquer anyone and a great case can be made that the vast majority of people that have been followers of him used his words for their personal gain and the physical conquering of other humans.  History is full of examples of this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163265 - 03/22/11 06:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Travelling inner planes is one thing but becoming enligtened is another. The spiritual path becomes more difficult as you progress on it. According to Meher there is an infinite abyss between the 6th plane and the final plane the 7th where one becomes one with God. It is primarily at the 6th plane where one needs God to become one with God. Jesus was one with God and that is why he is the path the truth and the light. These are my beliefs anyway.

Right these are just your personal beliefs. There is no real evidence that they are true and so are subjective. How can one who is not enlightened (you) actually know what enlightenment is or who actually has it?  You are taking someones word for it for your own reasons and any of us can be wrong about what we believe to be truth. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163277 - 03/22/11 06:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"In the beginning the mind grumbles, Why should I obey someone? But Hafiz consoles the mind by saying, On Mind! This bondage to the
Master alone can give eternal Freedom. The chosen ones of the Perfect Master obey Him implicitly. He who becomes the perfect 'slave' becomes a Perfect Master."


It's very easy to see how easily this can be used to control people. Take a look at Christianity.  How many people drank poison kool-aid because they became perfect slaves to the perfect master. They were also convinced that they had found a true master. And that master insisted that they not resist him. There are plenty of lesser and more benign examples where people just lose their time and or money.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisible1minutehasgoneby
Stranger

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 65
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
    #14163953 - 03/22/11 10:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The master has to do a GREAT deal and have some crazy respect to earn the title "Master." And who doesn't want freedom to do whatever they want or hear what they want to hear? When you're in a presence of a true master you will know and respect them. If you want what they have you will hear what they have to say. They may give you some weird teachings and you may not agree at first but the more you learn from them the pieces of the puzzle will all come together forming the picture...

On the other hand, the simple teachings of Jesus was just turned into a tool used to control the masses.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: 1minutehasgoneby]
    #14163968 - 03/22/11 11:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

1minutehasgoneby said:
On the other hand, the simple teachings of Jesus was just turned into a tool used to control the masses.


The fuck is the difference between this, and the teachings of "masters" and/or "gurus"? :ghandi:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: 1minutehasgoneby]
    #14164201 - 03/22/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

1minutehasgoneby said:
The master has to do a GREAT deal and have some crazy respect to earn the title "Master." And who doesn't want freedom to do whatever they want or hear what they want to hear? When you're in a presence of a true master you will know and respect them. If you want what they have you will hear what they have to say. They may give you some weird teachings and you may not agree at first but the more you learn from them the pieces of the puzzle will all come together forming the picture...

On the other hand, the simple teachings of Jesus was just turned into a tool used to control the masses.





And how many true masters have you been in the presence of?  Who were they?

And those folk who drank the poison "knew" they were in the presence of a true messenger of god. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14164608 - 03/22/11 01:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:
In my time I've studied, practiced and believed in a few different religions. Most notably Buddhism and different paths of Hinduism.

I've found that I agree with a lot of different concepts which formulate these two religions. However I do not agree with the concept of a "Master" or "Guru". One needs mentors when they're first starting out and information to get them started, but not authoritarian figures.
No one has a hold over truth, and there are no holy books.
Only collections of writing and poems.

Most importantly, the path within is the path within, not into someone else's idea of truth - but the truth inside.

:peace:




So you don't believe anything that doesn't agree with your personal experience? If you had an annual physical and a doctor told you that you had a problem in the early stages of manifestation and early action will be a huge benefit, but you felt fine, who would you listen to? Your experience of being OK, or would you listen to the doctor and take early action?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeff
just love everyone
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 48 minutes
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
    #14164616 - 03/22/11 01:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

in vajrayana buddhism, one is encouraged to spend up to 12 years inspecting a potential teacher before they accept them as their guru - it's not taken lightly

for vajrayana buddhism, a guru is an absolute necessity though, the whole vehicle is based around guru devotion and you need to receive blessings to partake in advanced practices

the guru issue is a touchy issue because there's certainly a fair share of 'fake gurus' out there who kind of make such relationships seem questionable. it's pretty easy to spot out which ones are just feeding their egos i think (though somehow they still find students)

i think when one advances on the path though, having a teacher, an embodiment of the wisdom-mind, who is on a vantage point and able to see your hang-ups, is indispensible. you might be able to solve a problem on your own over years that a relationship with an authentic guru could have been solved in a single encounter :shrug:


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: deff]
    #14164648 - 03/22/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I can't see how spending twelve year inspecting an animal is going to get you anywhere. Just sounds like a waste of time and an indulgence in self importance to me.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeff
just love everyone
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 48 minutes
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14164764 - 03/22/11 01:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

in vajaryana buddhism, the guru plays a very very prominent role, so you want to ensure you choose a guru that's fully capable - though twelve years seems excessive to me too, but this is i think to highlight how important it is to choose wisely :shrug:


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14164976 - 03/22/11 02:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I can't see how spending twelve year inspecting an animal is going to get you anywhere.
:rofl2::thumbup:

Keeps ya hooked though doesn't it?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: deff]
    #14164980 - 03/22/11 02:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

There's a difference between "Cult leader" & "Master".


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14164982 - 03/22/11 02:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Explain?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMuufokfok
aka BoxyBrown
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 2,119
Loc: america's wang Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: deff]
    #14164986 - 03/22/11 02:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

ill be glad to tell all of you that you are overanalyzing the whole concept of master and spiritual teacher.

master and guru is completely subjective. to accept someone as your spiritual teacher or being a samurai and taking on someone as your master you learn a great deal from them and can eventually surpass them if they are true to their art and both have a respect of eachother.

you guys have this notion like there's a loss of freedom or that you are only taking information from this one entity.

yes theyre are frauds and yes some teachers are delusional, but thats for your heart to decide whos right and whos wrong, it is your own fault if your heart leads you down a bad path. but how does one climb a mountain he hath not scaled yet?
you go on a whim, or find someone whose already climbed the mountain?


--------------------
"I'm guessing the 'ancient lost drug' of india is psychedelic mushrooms. The correlation between sacred cows (in hinduism) and magic mushrooms growing on cow dung is too strong to ignore, if you ask me."

As the ocean waves, the universe "peoples"
~Alan Watts~


Edited by Muufokfok (03/22/11 02:39 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
    #14164993 - 03/22/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Masters have "mastered" the energy body & enlightenment, cult leaders are addicted to followers. Cult leaders create dogma, not liberation.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMuufokfok
aka BoxyBrown
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 2,119
Loc: america's wang Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14164996 - 03/22/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Masters have "mastered" the energy body & enlightenment, cult leaders are addicted to followers. Cult leaders create dogma, not liberation.



this :strokebeard2::congrats:


--------------------
"I'm guessing the 'ancient lost drug' of india is psychedelic mushrooms. The correlation between sacred cows (in hinduism) and magic mushrooms growing on cow dung is too strong to ignore, if you ask me."

As the ocean waves, the universe "peoples"
~Alan Watts~


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethe bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Muufokfok]
    #14165030 - 03/22/11 02:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I know now that the humbleness of a warrior is not the humbleness of a beggar.

The warrior lowers his head to no one, but at the same time, he doesn't permit anyone to lower his head to him.

The beggar, on the other hand, falls to his knees at the drop of a hat and scrapes the floor for anyone he deems to be higher;
but at the same time, he demands that someone lower than him scrape the floor for him.

"That's why I told you earlier today that I didn't understand what masters felt like.
I know only the humbleness of a warrior, and that will never permit me to be anyone's master."




--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD 
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14165040 - 03/22/11 02:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Masters have "mastered" the energy body & enlightenment, cult leaders are addicted to followers. Cult leaders create dogma, not liberation.




Who has done this that you have personal experience with? And if you don't have personal experience how do you know it's for real?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: the bizzle]
    #14165045 - 03/22/11 02:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the bizzle said:
Quote:

I know now that the humbleness of a warrior is not the humbleness of a beggar.

The warrior lowers his head to no one, but at the same time, he doesn't permit anyone to lower his head to him.

The beggar, on the other hand, falls to his knees at the drop of a hat and scrapes the floor for anyone he deems to be higher;
but at the same time, he demands that someone lower than him scrape the floor for him.

"That's why I told you earlier today that I didn't understand what masters felt like.
I know only the humbleness of a warrior, and that will never permit me to be anyone's master."








One of the many stunning quotes from CC.
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethe bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
    #14165050 - 03/22/11 02:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

LOL

exactly.

edit: replying to your first post, about experiencing


--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD 
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID



Edited by the bizzle (03/22/11 02:51 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMuufokfok
aka BoxyBrown
Male User Gallery
Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 2,119
Loc: america's wang Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: the bizzle]
    #14165066 - 03/22/11 02:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

im glad you can be proud of being a warrior, and the path of honor and being a warrior is awesome.

but people misinterpret the whole master thing, almost all samurai and spiritualists have some type of master or even book that they can consider a master. it doesnt have to be called master it can be a "higher source of knowledge"

but the way some are perceiving it in this thread is to take nothin from no one, but then how do you learn anything, is it all truly from within? how does one obtain manners and morals?

maybe its just the way I am taking it.
maybe we should just change the word master.


Rinpoche


--------------------
"I'm guessing the 'ancient lost drug' of india is psychedelic mushrooms. The correlation between sacred cows (in hinduism) and magic mushrooms growing on cow dung is too strong to ignore, if you ask me."

As the ocean waves, the universe "peoples"
~Alan Watts~


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Muufokfok]
    #14165115 - 03/22/11 03:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If you think someone else has a higher source of knowledge you are missing the point IMO. The best a spiritual teacher can do is point a way to a road map to get your own understanding down.

"I only really have one teaching, if you ever have any questions
Sit down
Shut up
And ask yourself what's true until you know"
~Jed Mckenna

"You have to touch life at a point where nobody has touched it before.Nobody can teach you that.

Anything I do to help would only add to your misery--that is all. By continuing to listen to me you merely heap one more misery upon those you already have."
~UG Krishnamurti


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Muufokfok]
    #14165129 - 03/22/11 03:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BoxyBrown said:
im glad you can be proud of being a warrior, and the path of honor and being a warrior is awesome.

but people misinterpret the whole master thing, almost all samurai and spiritualists have some type of master or even book that they can consider a master. it doesnt have to be called master it can be a "higher source of knowledge"

but the way some are perceiving it in this thread is to take nothin from no one, but then how do you learn anything, is it all truly from within? how does one obtain manners and morals?

maybe its just the way I am taking it.
maybe we should just change the word master.


Rinpoche





I can learn from anyone I choose.  They don't need to be called a Master to have the info I need to gain skill. Then I need to personalize it through experience.  For instance I never had to call my Martial Arts Instructor, Master.  He wouldn't hear of it. Yet by studying with him for several years as a teacher and friend I myself became an Instructor and taught  in Seattle.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14165157 - 03/22/11 03:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Re-asking A question I posed to the OP, would any of you who are opposed to a master listen to a doctor who told you that treating the early stages of a disease, when you are not physically experience its effects, would be of incredible benefit? Or would you listen to your individual experience, acting only when the disease fully surfaced in your life?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethe bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
    #14165163 - 03/22/11 03:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

but the way some are perceiving it in this thread is to take nothin from no one, but then how do you learn anything, is it all truly from within? how does one obtain manners and morals?






"Jesus was an only son,

love his only concept."




in other words....you can't look to anybody else to tell you what reality is. Only YOU can interpret what it is that you are experiencing. You can know (or perhaps make an educated guess) that a fact is a fact, and you can also know that you're really not quite sure...

Good advice is good advice, but I can't conquer the challenge for you

and I was born knowing nothing just like you. I don't know everything. So take what I say with a grain of salt... sounds like pretty good advice, no?


who decides what a "master" (at life) is anyway? many students grow to outperform their teachers. Pretty neat


"anybody who says they don't learn something new everyday is full of shit" --blue collared worker


--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD 
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID



Edited by the bizzle (03/22/11 03:09 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle]
    #14165177 - 03/22/11 03:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Health is a very different thing to getting your own views down. Becoming a doctor is about mostly about collecting knowledge and learning technique, getting your own views down is about sorting through the fundamentals and looking around.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14165191 - 03/22/11 03:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Health is a very different thing to getting your own views down. Becoming a doctor is about mostly about collecting knowledge and learning technique, getting your own views down is about sorting through the fundamentals and looking around.




I'm asking about your views on your health :shrug:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle]
    #14165205 - 03/22/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry it sounding a lot like you were relating it to the discussion.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14165241 - 03/22/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well, it is related. If you would trust the doctor despite your personal experience, that just means you place your trust in a different type of master. And it is likely the result of your own knowledge and experience, even though you yourself are likely not a doctor.

The same could be said of any master. It is a trust based on personal experience although one likely is not a master themselves. Naturally one has to keep their wits about them. There are shoddy docs out there.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMuufokfok
aka BoxyBrown
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 2,119
Loc: america's wang Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14165243 - 03/22/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

the general relationship between a master and retainer is one of respect, trust, friendship and equality. This is from the book Hagakure The way of the samurai, which is how i think of anyone i accept spiritual lessons, or general teachings from.
Quote:

it is spiritless to think that you cannot attain to that which you have seen and heard masters attain. The masters are men. You are also a man. If you think that you will be inferior in doing something, you will be on the road very soon.
Master Ittei said, "confuscius was a sage because he had the will to become a scholar when he was fifteen years old. He was not a sage because he studied later on." this is the same as the buddhist maxim, "First intention, then enlightenment"




--------------------
"I'm guessing the 'ancient lost drug' of india is psychedelic mushrooms. The correlation between sacred cows (in hinduism) and magic mushrooms growing on cow dung is too strong to ignore, if you ask me."

As the ocean waves, the universe "peoples"
~Alan Watts~


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMuufokfok
aka BoxyBrown
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 2,119
Loc: america's wang Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle]
    #14165264 - 03/22/11 03:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Well, it is related. If you would trust the doctor despite your personal experience, that just means you place your trust in a different type of master. And it is likely the result of your own knowledge and experience, even though you yourself are likely not a doctor.

The same could be said of a master. It is a trust based on personal experience although one likely is not a master themselves. Naturally in both cases one has to keep their wits about them. There are shoddy docs out there.



i dont trust doctors, unless its a physical injury.

i trust herbal and fungal remedies, because i used to take advair and that shit can kill you. just goes to show you some masters cant be trusted.

i mean look at all the pharma opiates...:nonono:


--------------------
"I'm guessing the 'ancient lost drug' of india is psychedelic mushrooms. The correlation between sacred cows (in hinduism) and magic mushrooms growing on cow dung is too strong to ignore, if you ask me."

As the ocean waves, the universe "peoples"
~Alan Watts~


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14165282 - 03/22/11 03:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
I can't see how spending twelve year inspecting an animal is going to get you anywhere. Just sounds like a waste of time and an indulgence in self importance to me.




This is just a cultural program.

If one aquiesces to the notion of animal as marginal, that is, defined by a history of its deprecation in comparison to humans, then like its name, this does seem like a waste of time to study, being just an animal.

If an animal signifies something that is not merely deprecated as Other, then what difference signifies it? Like its name, it would apparently exist in an arbitrary way, as just being.

What animal do you mean?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Muufokfok]
    #14165295 - 03/22/11 03:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I don't trust doctors for shit either They have given me very bad advice in the past. That doesn't mean pharamaceutical medicine is always a bad thing. Always look whatever they give up online first and weigh the pros and cons up myself. :shrug:


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: daytripper23]
    #14165313 - 03/22/11 03:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It was intended as a leveller, I'll read a book by someone and if I don't like it I can put it down, spending 12 years inspecting the author is not something I'm a fan of though and seems blatently idiotic.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMuufokfok
aka BoxyBrown
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 2,119
Loc: america's wang Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14165320 - 03/22/11 03:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
It was intended as a leveller, I'll read a book by someone and if I don't like it I can put it down, spending 12 years inspecting the author is not something I'm a fan of though and seems blatently idiotic.



thats their culture, some people dont grow up with internet and easily attainable knowledge.

not to forget the awesomeness of deep meditation, some of them are patient enough to continue those 12 years


--------------------
"I'm guessing the 'ancient lost drug' of india is psychedelic mushrooms. The correlation between sacred cows (in hinduism) and magic mushrooms growing on cow dung is too strong to ignore, if you ask me."

As the ocean waves, the universe "peoples"
~Alan Watts~


Edited by Muufokfok (03/22/11 03:34 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14165324 - 03/22/11 03:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The trail just keeps going. Understanding more of a medicine does not give you the information a bio-chemical engineer will have, for instance. And you may take something that you feel comfortable with that such a person wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole.

No one knows everything and there are varying degrees of trust the whole way along. That includes on the doctors end, and the bio-chemists end, and as far as I can tell it's a necessity. The only difference I can really see is where the imaginary lines get drawn.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeff
just love everyone
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 48 minutes
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Muufokfok]
    #14165333 - 03/22/11 03:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

well during that 12 years (which is stated as a maximum) one would still be receiving teachings from multiple sources and would be practicing, but this is to select a root guru, which is a very important decision in tibetan buddhism - also one could be examining more than one teacher at a time for the role, and it wouldn't be a full-time examination

but basically, selecting the right root guru is very important in tibetan buddhism, not something you just rush out and do


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle]
    #14165335 - 03/22/11 03:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

True, however the closer you get to the source the better the knowledge, the internet seems like the best way of doing that.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14165349 - 03/22/11 03:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Right, but no one is perfect, including this personal guru inside. IMO whether a spiritual master is sought or not, it is always that inner guru telling someone it is a good idea or not. There is no one who doesn't listen to themselves, even if that is telling them that another is worth trusting.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMuufokfok
aka BoxyBrown
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 2,119
Loc: america's wang Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle]
    #14165357 - 03/22/11 03:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i feel like this is once again being overanalyzed and getting no where, :rolleyes:, seems to come back to the same conclusion with no concrete-ness to OP's statement except that his was too concrete.

but this has distracted me from homework for too long :crankey:


--------------------
"I'm guessing the 'ancient lost drug' of india is psychedelic mushrooms. The correlation between sacred cows (in hinduism) and magic mushrooms growing on cow dung is too strong to ignore, if you ask me."

As the ocean waves, the universe "peoples"
~Alan Watts~


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle]
    #14165385 - 03/22/11 03:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The way I see it there are plenty of people who just imitate others without really thinking for themselves. There are also plenty of gurus who just tell their students the way it is with flowery words while the students hang on their every word. I could be wrong but a lot of it seems much the same in this manner as any religion.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Muufokfok]
    #14165404 - 03/22/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

the way I see it we can't effectively trust anything 100% and that includes ourself. But we all choose what works best for us, even if it will never be the perfection we all so badly crave.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle]
    #14165444 - 03/22/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Re-asking A question I posed to the OP, would any of you who are opposed to a master listen to a doctor who told you that treating the early stages of a disease, when you are not physically experience its effects, would be of incredible benefit? Or would you listen to your individual experience, acting only when the disease fully surfaced in your life?





I might listen but then I would do some research to see if I agreed with the Doc. They tend to be mighty dangerous know it alls with a god complex.  Using a doctor was a good example:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #14165454 - 03/22/11 04:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think it's almost a contradiction to say you only trust yourself as it would mean you cannot trust yourself enough to discern who should or should not be trusted. Unless you just think no one can ever be trusted no matter the situations, which is just ridiculous.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMuufokfok
aka BoxyBrown
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 2,119
Loc: america's wang Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14165495 - 03/22/11 04:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
I think it's almost a contradiction to say you only trust yourself as it would mean you cannot trust yourself enough to discern who should or should not be trusted. Unless you just think no one can ever be trusted no matter the situations, which is just ridiculous.



wanted to get this statement across but couldnt put it into words:thumbup:


--------------------
"I'm guessing the 'ancient lost drug' of india is psychedelic mushrooms. The correlation between sacred cows (in hinduism) and magic mushrooms growing on cow dung is too strong to ignore, if you ask me."

As the ocean waves, the universe "peoples"
~Alan Watts~


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Muufokfok]
    #14165499 - 03/22/11 04:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe nobody is completely trust worthy.  At least with ourselves we got a shot.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14165541 - 03/22/11 04:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think I can trust anyone to tell me about my own reality and consciousness. I'm the only one who has any chance of knowing what's going on in my own world. Inquiry ought to be direct, not impartial. It's just like trusting some psychologists bullshit as a means to sorting out your own stuff. You're just gonna make more stuff up in your head and dig yourself into more holes instead of dissecting what you already got. People can give you a few pointers as to how to look at your own shit but ultimately you have to stop looking at what they are saying and starting investigating your own world otherwise you are just a clone going off the back of someone elses experience.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14165710 - 03/22/11 04:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Many parents of autistic children benefit greatly from the additional tools that someone who has spent years studying the disorder can provide. Of course the parents could explore this themselves and some choose that route. Personally I think this leads to additional suffering for both the child and the parents. More as a rule of thumb than something set in stone.

IMO the thought being described here is why Christian parents pray for their kids instead of taking them to the hospital. We want to be more correct than anyone else. And I think it stems from taking responsibility for our own well-being and often reflects our beliefs on how to best accomplish that.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle]
    #14165779 - 03/22/11 05:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

As I said earlier I don't see any relation between developing spiritual internal views and developing material external views. Other than that the one can encourage more maturity in the other. Nobody can tell you how your consciousness is functioning whereas people can tell you how the material world is functioning because one can use evidence in a descrption of it.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14165831 - 03/22/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

My point with the autism comment was two fold. One, some people are unable to communicate their experience effectively to others and suffer as a result. A psychologist who can come in and help the communication to occur is going to ease the suffering.

And two, conscious experience is related to the material brain. Autism is an extreme, but there are lots of individuals who struggle with communication on some level. A guru or psychologist who can provide a vocabulary or direction for an experience is very common from what I have seen. It is easy to say someone is just parroting and doesn't want to look inside, but IMO that is just self-aggrandizing BS based on where someone finds themself.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle]
    #14165855 - 03/22/11 05:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Who's to say an autistic person cannot cope with developing their own internal world view and the doctor needs to help them? Things like communication are learning difficulties and really have nothing to do with what I'm talking about.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14165938 - 03/22/11 05:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No one is independent from the world around them. Your language and tools of insight are likely linked to your knowledge base. Your inner looking runs on that base. Just like a Christian runs on their base. Most settle on parroting the base that best accomplishes the goals set. But since when is the goal unique?

As for the Autistic, inability to communicate means inability to get needs satiated. If needs are not satiated, that is what will be in consciousness. As the inability to communicate the needs continues, frustration sets in and can be seen in extreme temper tantrums and attempts at physical communication that is often violent. This typically does not accomplish the goal and leaves one stuck spinning their wheels. Imagine it for yourself.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle]
    #14166100 - 03/22/11 05:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

As for the Autistic, inability to communicate means inability to get needs satiated. If needs are not satiated, that is what will be in consciousness. As the inability to communicate the needs continues, frustrationsets in and can be seen in extreme temper tantrums and attempts at physical communication that is often violent. This typically does not accomplish the goal and leaves one stuck spinning their wheels. Imagine it for yourself.




Similar to any human condition regardless of whether it's an extreme.

Quote:

No one is independent from the world around them. Your language and tools of insight are likely linked to your knowledge base. Your inner looking runs on that base. Just like a Christian runs on their base. Some have different material to work with though. That material in consciousness that is related to the material of the brain.




Mostly what I am saying her is that gurus are placed in a position of too high an importance, as I said it's not like I never read books or related to the external world, it's just that sticking yourself on one persons teaching and going with that seems like a great way to accomplish a narrow view and not sift things for yourself. Just an opinion.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14166312 - 03/22/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

And I agree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14166322 - 03/22/11 06:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
I think it's almost a contradiction to say you only trust yourself as it would mean you cannot trust yourself enough to discern who should or should not be trusted. Unless you just think no one can ever be trusted no matter the situations, which is just ridiculous.




Thats just playing with words.
I trust myself, I don't trust other people past a certain point.



Quote:


Grapefruit said:
Mostly what I am saying her is that gurus are placed in a position of too high an importance, as I said it's not like I never read books or related to the external world, it's just that sticking yourself on one persons teaching and going with that seems like a great way to accomplish a narrow view and not sift things for yourself. Just an opinion.




I concur, thats basically what my point was in starting the thread.
Learn from others, but be your own master.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14166762 - 03/22/11 07:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Mostly what I am saying her is that gurus are placed in a position of too high an importance, as I said it's not like I never read books or related to the external world, it's just that sticking yourself on one persons teaching and going with that seems like a great way to accomplish a narrow view and not sift things for yourself. Just an opinion.




I agree. I just don't hold it against people. To me people function basically the same all around, and if I was presented with the material that others are, I would be in those shoes. Far as I can tell everyone is doing their best with what they've got. So if the best for someone is a guru, it is selfish of me to tell them they need to use what is best for me.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle]
    #14166840 - 03/22/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not telling anyone to do anything, people can do whatever they like and I can think they're foolish for doing it. My opinion is as worthless as any other. :shrug:


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14166897 - 03/22/11 08:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah I'm only stating my opinion, this is a forum so people can take or leave what they want.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Edited by ahchela (03/22/11 08:43 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisible1minutehasgoneby
Stranger

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 65
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Poid]
    #14167041 - 03/22/11 09:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)




The fuck is the difference between this, and the teachings of "masters" and/or "gurus"? :ghandi:




Well what I'm trying to say is that Jesus once lived and had followers. After some time after his death the bible has been tweaked by the elite to control the masses. I'm pretty sure everyone knows about the many different versions of the bible.

If Jesus were alive today... I wonder if anyone will follow him and his words? Or would you make fun of him and crucify him thinking you know better...

You got to remember that masters were once stupid kids also. The only real master that was born with enlightenment was Jesus that I know of. Buddha had to go through some intense medication by himself to reach to the point where he got (don't quote me). So I guess some people were born with it and some people had to learn somehow. The question is... would you want to go through years of training to get to a masters level or would you rather take the easy way and learn the secrets and shortcuts from the master himself... And do you have the faith in your master or not.... simple...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMedici_head
Void Explorer
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/15/11
Posts: 52
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14167224 - 03/22/11 10:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The mind is such a powerful tool... it can convince "you" of just about anything if you let it!  IMO, on this physical plane, emotions can be defined as complex structuring of synaptic processing which can be reduced to algorithms (eventually).  Furthering this idea, if your brain emotes a "need" or "want" of a master or guru, there will be one projected for you.  If you don't think you "need" one, then you won't project a need for it.  Let's go further down the hole shall we?  If I say apple, you project it.  Just about everyone can see it in their mind's eye, the color and shape.  Some can feel the texture, even some can smell it right now, maybe even taste it. How can this be, it's not even physically there right?  Well, your mind is projecting on many different levels here.  A few enlightened individuals throughout history might even make it physically appear just by super-focused projection.  Most minds aren't capable of such feats except divine intervention(IMHO)!  So... yes I believe everyone does have a master - it's the brain, we are all prisoners within it unless you find a key and unlock the door.


--------------------
Y o u ' r e  a l l  G o d s ;  Y o u ' r e  a l l  G o d s ;  Y o u ' r e  a l l  2  m i l l i o n  y e a r s  o l d . ~T. Leary


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Medici_head]
    #14167245 - 03/22/11 10:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I don't put that much stock into the brain muscle.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineShpongle1
Male


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Above The Clouds Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela] * 1
    #14167384 - 03/22/11 10:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think too much of the dilemma is based around the translation "Master".  It doesn't sound particularly appealing to those who are accustomed to freedom (or at least the illusion thereof) to willingly submit to a Master.  Lots of people have no problem with the idea of 'their Lord' because that's the term they're familiar with so it doesn't bother them to call Jesus their Lord.  But to that same person, Master has a different context.  FYI - When translated from Hindi, regarding Eastern/Indian religions, Master is usually the 2nd translation or definition.  The first is usually Saint.  Is that more pleasing?

I think another reason the idea of a Master or Guru bothers people, especially Westerners, is because of our egos.  The way I had it explained to me was not that people are inferior to their "Master", to the Saints, their Guru or whatever.  The analogy was a surgeon.  When you have a health problem, you research, find someone you think is capable, talk with them.  Then, when you are ready for your problem to be corrected, ultimately, like it or not, you submit yourself to them based on your trust, so that they may heal you.  The same goes for a Master/Guru/Saint. 

They aren't there teaching you to inflate their ego and feeling 'holier than thou'.  They're there to offer their services to you.  They allow you to "sift things for yourself" just as they've done with the teachings of those they've studied with.

In the Sant tradition of India, they also believe a Master/Guru is needed to guide the disciple through the different regions of the mind during meditation.  The analogy here was to a pilot taking you to a land you've never been to, where they speak a different language.  In order to make the journey, you trust the pilot and take advantage of his services.  Even if you somehow managed to make the impossible journey alone, safely, to your destination, you would not get the full benefit of the experience.  You need someone who has been there before you to guide you and show you.  Eventually, you are the "pilot" but you still have your Master/Guru there to guide you and "introduce you" if you will, at the different levels of the trip.

I see nothing wrong with it.  From my readings, if you find a "true Master/Guru", you're lucky and you have the opportunity to learn a lot about the humans power of love.  Their goal is to be the example to which all men could follow and do no wrong. Only love.  I don't see too much wrong with that.  (Long as fuck, sorry.)


--------------------





There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined.  Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. :crankey: 

- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14167517 - 03/22/11 11:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If you find a guide who isn't in it for money/ego, that isn't in the norm but I'm sure they're out there. As it is I've been sifting around for years and practiced projection, I don't feel that I need someone to hold my hand. Like I said before, it helps in the beginning to feel like theres an authority watching over you and you can learn a lot from your elders but I've experienced deceit even at the level of competent guides.
I'll keep my autonomy, when I turned 18 I moved out.

I don't believe in enlightenment or god either, all I'm seeking is life.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeff
just love everyone
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 48 minutes
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14167941 - 03/23/11 12:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

good post, shpongle1 :thumbup:


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1] * 1
    #14168093 - 03/23/11 01:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

  You need someone who has been there before you to guide you and show you.  Eventually, you are the "pilot" but you still have your Master/Guru there to guide you and "introduce you" if you will, at the different levels of the trip.

The reason this does not make sense is there would have to have been the first guru.  How did he make the impossible trip and receive all the benefits without his own guru?

Of course one can say that dudes guru came to him on the astral plane or some such. But you didn't and now you can't without looking like you're just making shit up.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14168114 - 03/23/11 01:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:
In my time I've studied, practiced and believed in a few different religions. Most notably Buddhism and different paths of Hinduism.

I've found that I agree with a lot of different concepts which formulate these two religions. However I do not agree with the concept of a "Master" or "Guru". One needs mentors when they're first starting out and information to get them started, but not authoritarian figures.
No one has a hold over truth, and there are no holy books.
Only collections of writing and poems.

Most importantly, the path within is the path within, not into someone else's idea of truth - but the truth inside.

:peace:




True, but to bring suppleness into the mind humility is necessary & you can't be much more humble (or stupid) than surrendering to another human (depending on who they are)

The part of you that doesn't like 'Gurus' or 'Masters', that part of you must die before 'you' awaken to truth.
If you were fully awake to the truth then you wouldn't have ANY problem with Masters because you would see these dudes as reflections of your own eternal being, not as 'other' people that are separate from you that you then should be resisting.

Don't like it? Then you proove my point... :wink:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
    #14168361 - 03/23/11 03:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Re-asking A question I posed to the OP, would any of you who are opposed to a master listen to a doctor who told you that treating the early stages of a disease, when you are not physically experience its effects, would be of incredible benefit? Or would you listen to your individual experience, acting only when the disease fully surfaced in your life?





I might listen but then I would do some research to see if I agreed with the Doc. They tend to be mighty dangerous know it alls with a god complex.


So true. :sadyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Chronic7]
    #14168520 - 03/23/11 06:00 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Don't like it? Then you proove my point...

This very much reminds me of how my questions and criticisms were treated and responded to when I was a young lad in church. 

I have never thought less of something you've said here.  IMO it's a form of emotional bullying.  Something said when one's sacred beliefs are challenged and indefensible.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Chronic7]
    #14168568 - 03/23/11 06:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:
Quote:

ahchela said:
In my time I've studied, practiced and believed in a few different religions. Most notably Buddhism and different paths of Hinduism.

I've found that I agree with a lot of different concepts which formulate these two religions. However I do not agree with the concept of a "Master" or "Guru". One needs mentors when they're first starting out and information to get them started, but not authoritarian figures.
No one has a hold over truth, and there are no holy books.
Only collections of writing and poems.

Most importantly, the path within is the path within, not into someone else's idea of truth - but the truth inside.

:peace:




True, but to bring suppleness into the mind humility is necessary & you can't be much more humble (or stupid) than surrendering to another human (depending on who they are)

The part of you that doesn't like 'Gurus' or 'Masters', that part of you must die before 'you' awaken to truth.
If you were fully awake to the truth then you wouldn't have ANY problem with Masters because you would see these dudes as reflections of your own eternal being, not as 'other' people that are separate from you that you then should be resisting.


So what if he is more "awakened" than these masters? Wouldn't that mean that, since he as a problem with them, they aren't masters?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Chronic7]
    #14168769 - 03/23/11 08:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

In the same way one can not have a problem with Hitler. Just because you are not attached to what others do doesn't mean that you can't call them out on their bullshit.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Chronic7]
    #14168967 - 03/23/11 09:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Chronic said:

True, but to bring suppleness into the mind humility is necessary & you can't be much more humble (or stupid) than surrendering to another human (depending on who they are)

The part of you that doesn't like 'Gurus' or 'Masters', that part of you must die before 'you' awaken to truth.
If you were fully awake to the truth then you wouldn't have ANY problem with Masters because you would see these dudes as reflections of your own eternal being, not as 'other' people that are separate from you that you then should be resisting.

Don't like it? Then you proove my point... :wink:




If they are only reflections of myself (which I don't believe for a second) I need them even less. I think the part of me that doesn't like 'Gurus' is the very highest part of me, the part of me that lives for freedom and survival. Autonomy.

Eventually there comes a time when you're a man and you don't look up to anyone in this world, why should it be any different in the greater idea of life itself?
Call it pride if you will, I call it self-respect, self-responsibility, and self-control.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual [Re: ahchela]
    #14169031 - 03/23/11 10:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What makes you think it is the highest part of yourself?

I'm not claiming that it isn't, but there are many who consider that the "root" or the base of the tree of life. The drive to survive and its inevitable push towards autonomy is considered to be the most basic level and inherent to all life.

What makes you think that it is the highest part of yourself instead of the most basic?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual [Re: Kickle]
    #14169080 - 03/23/11 10:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why can't one's highest part also be one's most basic part?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineShpongle1
Male


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Above The Clouds Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
    #14169094 - 03/23/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
  You need someone who has been there before you to guide you and show you.  Eventually, you are the "pilot" but you still have your Master/Guru there to guide you and "introduce you" if you will, at the different levels of the trip.

The reason this does not make sense is there would have to have been the first guru.  How did he make the impossible trip and receive all the benefits without his own guru?

Of course one can say that dudes guru came to him on the astral plane or some such. But you didn't and now you can't without looking like you're just making shit up.:lol:




No, it does make sense.  Can you not think of any examples where something took more than one lifetime to come to fruition?  Where numerous people gave their lives and were UNsuccessful at reaching their goal but passed on enough knowledge for later generations to finally become successful and reach the goal due to all of their combined efforts?  Some things take efforts that span generations to finally work out.

It makes sense.  You could spend your entire life fumbling your own way along and never reach the goal as others have done before.  Or, you could learn from those who have had direct experience and trust their words as fact and see for yourself.  This is another reason why they believe a true, living Master/Guru is needed for a disciple to reach Anaami, or the highest region of their practice of Surat Shabd yoga (but the same applies to any Eastern traditions that I'm aware of.)

Obviously if you were going to try to study a very specific field of science and be successful, you would need to take the words and experiments and discoveries of those before you as truth in order to proceed with any logic of success.  This is one example of what I was saying earlier, something where you do NEED information that would take more than your own lifetime to gather in order to reach your final goal.  Imagine needing to first figure out what gravity or even density was before you could ultimately go on to study planetary motion.  You would never get there, never succeed.  You need the help of many people who came before you, not ONE person who randomly met someone on the astral plane and then knew everything........ :rolleyes:

If you don't believe that that is a fair example, (relating science to spirituality/mysticism) then maybe that is the real issue with not wanting to have trust or faith in a Master.  You might think that it's different for everyone.  Or there is no "truth".  Well, I don't have a Master or Guru or anything like that but I'm intrigued by their teachings.  And I for one DO believe that there are inherent truths when it comes to the human spirit, life, love, etc.  And generally, most people all over the world for centuries believe this too.  The biggest differences between most religions is a perversion of the basic teachings that occurs long after the originally teacher/master/lord whateverthehell is long gone.  The book "The Harmony of All Religions" is a good one to read more about this.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic now.  But still, in response... It DOES make sense.


--------------------





There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined.  Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. :crankey: 

- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.


Edited by Shpongle1 (03/23/11 10:21 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeff
just love everyone
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 48 minutes
Re: Spiritual [Re: Poid]
    #14169097 - 03/23/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

usually people cite the highest part as the most transcendental, for whatever reason

Quote:

Eventually there comes a time when you're a man and you don't look up to anyone in this world, why should it be any different in the greater idea of life itself?
Call it pride if you will, I call it self-respect, self-responsibility, and self-control.




in buddhism though there's no self, so clinging to the illusion of self control and self respect is an illusion which binds one to samsara. submission is a very convenient way to cut through the sense of self, although an unpopular one in the west i gather...


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual [Re: deff]
    #14169127 - 03/23/11 10:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
in buddhism though there's no self...


This is a ridiculous notion IMO--we exist, and we are conscious of our own existence, so there is a "self". We can control our bodies, and can have respect for ourselves, I don't see why anybody would believe otherwise.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeff
just love everyone
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 48 minutes
Re: Spiritual [Re: Poid]
    #14169141 - 03/23/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

there's a duality in saying "we control our body" - implying we aren't our bodies... same with "my mind is.." as if we aren't our mind - implying there's some independent agent/self outside the bodymind complex - which in buddhism is a major obstacle to liberation

saying there is no self is not negating that there is experience which occurs (so it's not implying there's nothing) - just that this experience is selfless, impermanent, and unsatisfactory


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual [Re: deff]
    #14169233 - 03/23/11 10:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well I'm not Buddhist/Hindu or part of any other theological system.

I'll say my body, my mind, but not my soul. Soul being a more poetic way to say, self. Self just referring to me, my existence. Negating self is negating existence. Believing in the oneness of life is a precursor to negating the self, if I don't believe life is one then I see no reason to negate myself.

I think Sphongle has a good point but it falls short on one all important aspect. Life itself will teach you if you learn to listen.


Not trying to be controversial here, but there are a few things I don't believe in, these are things which I see as control mechanisms set up by the mystical elites.

1) God
2) Oneness of all life
3) Enlightenment
4) The absolute need of a Guru
5) The sanctity of any individual over any other

The reason I'm clarifying this, is because without the first 3 there is no need of a guru once you can project yourself. There is a lot of contradictory information about the first 3, and they are unatainable.
So in my view they exist only to keep advanced students under the pernament control.

"He who claims enlightenment, is not enlightened... but enlightenment is possible, you just know you have it... but if you think you have it you don't... you don't understand? That is what I'm here for!"
No thanks.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual [Re: Poid]
    #14169234 - 03/23/11 10:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

This is a ridiculous notion IMO--we exist, and we are conscious of our own existence, so there is a "self". We can control our bodies,




What makes you think there is a "you" who had any control over what you just wrote? Humans are just machines acting out their given codes. There is nothing there to be in control, there's just a bunch of code which isn't related to anything at all. There cannot be any controller at the wheel other than general reality. A human is just one part of a pattern stemming through time.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14169305 - 03/23/11 10:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shpongle1 said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
  You need someone who has been there before you to guide you and show you.  Eventually, you are the "pilot" but you still have your Master/Guru there to guide you and "introduce you" if you will, at the different levels of the trip.

The reason this does not make sense is there would have to have been the first guru.  How did he make the impossible trip and receive all the benefits without his own guru?

Of course one can say that dudes guru came to him on the astral plane or some such. But you didn't and now you can't without looking like you're just making shit up.:lol:




No, it does make sense.  Can you not think of any examples where something took more than one lifetime to come to fruition?  Where numerous people gave their lives and were UNsuccessful at reaching their goal but passed on enough knowledge for later generations to finally become successful and reach the goal due to all of their combined efforts?  Some things take efforts that span generations to finally work out.

It makes sense.  You could spend your entire life fumbling your own way along and never reach the goal as others have done before.  Or, you could learn from those who have had direct experience and trust their words as fact and see for yourself.  This is another reason why they believe a true, living Master/Guru is needed for a disciple to reach Anaami, or the highest region of their practice of Surat Shabd yoga (but the same applies to any Eastern traditions that I'm aware of.)

Obviously if you were going to try to study a very specific field of science and be successful, you would need to take the words and experiments and discoveries of those before you as truth in order to proceed with any logic of success.  This is one example of what I was saying earlier, something where you do NEED information that would take more than your own lifetime to gather in order to reach your final goal.  Imagine needing to first figure out what gravity or even density was before you could ultimately go on to study planetary motion.  You would never get there, never succeed.  You need the help of many people who came before you, not ONE person who randomly met someone on the astral plane and then knew everything........ :rolleyes:

If you don't believe that that is a fair example, (relating science to spirituality/mysticism) then maybe that is the real issue with not wanting to have trust or faith in a Master.  You might think that it's different for everyone.  Or there is no "truth".  Well, I don't have a Master or Guru or anything like that but I'm intrigued by their teachings.  And I for one DO believe that there are inherent truths when it comes to the human spirit, life, love, etc.  And generally, most people all over the world for centuries believe this too.  The biggest differences between most religions is a perversion of the basic teachings that occurs long after the originally teacher/master/lord whateverthehell is long gone.  The book "The Harmony of All Religions" is a good one to read more about this.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic now.  But still, in response... It DOES make sense.





You really didn't address my response to the other poster.

I never said we can't learn from others.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual [Re: Poid]
    #14169321 - 03/23/11 10:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Why can't one's highest part also be one's most basic part?




The base of a mountain is not the highest part of the mountain. The terms don't really seem compatible. Of course I'm open to any explanation of why the base of the mountain is also the top, and that's why I posed the question.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineShpongle1
Male


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Above The Clouds Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
    #14169407 - 03/23/11 11:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Shpongle1 said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
  You need someone who has been there before you to guide you and show you.  Eventually, you are the "pilot" but you still have your Master/Guru there to guide you and "introduce you" if you will, at the different levels of the trip.

The reason this does not make sense is there would have to have been the first guru.  How did he make the impossible trip and receive all the benefits without his own guru?

Of course one can say that dudes guru came to him on the astral plane or some such. But you didn't and now you can't without looking like you're just making shit up.:lol:




No, it does make sense.  Can you not think of any examples where something took more than one lifetime to come to fruition?  Where numerous people gave their lives and were UNsuccessful at reaching their goal but passed on enough knowledge for later generations to finally become successful and reach the goal due to all of their combined efforts?  Some things take efforts that span generations to finally work out.

It makes sense.  You could spend your entire life fumbling your own way along and never reach the goal as others have done before.  Or, you could learn from those who have had direct experience and trust their words as fact and see for yourself.  This is another reason why they believe a true, living Master/Guru is needed for a disciple to reach Anaami, or the highest region of their practice of Surat Shabd yoga (but the same applies to any Eastern traditions that I'm aware of.)

Obviously if you were going to try to study a very specific field of science and be successful, you would need to take the words and experiments and discoveries of those before you as truth in order to proceed with any logic of success.  This is one example of what I was saying earlier, something where you do NEED information that would take more than your own lifetime to gather in order to reach your final goal.  Imagine needing to first figure out what gravity or even density was before you could ultimately go on to study planetary motion.  You would never get there, never succeed.  You need the help of many people who came before you, not ONE person who randomly met someone on the astral plane and then knew everything........ :rolleyes:

If you don't believe that that is a fair example, (relating science to spirituality/mysticism) then maybe that is the real issue with not wanting to have trust or faith in a Master.  You might think that it's different for everyone.  Or there is no "truth".  Well, I don't have a Master or Guru or anything like that but I'm intrigued by their teachings.  And I for one DO believe that there are inherent truths when it comes to the human spirit, life, love, etc.  And generally, most people all over the world for centuries believe this too.  The biggest differences between most religions is a perversion of the basic teachings that occurs long after the originally teacher/master/lord whateverthehell is long gone.  The book "The Harmony of All Religions" is a good one to read more about this.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic now.  But still, in response... It DOES make sense.





You really didn't address my response to the other poster.

I never said we can't learn from others.




You implied it by saying that there had to be a "First Guru..." who somehow, on the astral plane or whatever you're sarcastically saying, suddenly came into this knowledge before anyone else.  It's a strange assumption on your part.  You may not have came out and said "We can't learn from others" but by saying that it doesn't make any sense and that he would've had to learn it all at once by some form of magic you implied it.


And I'm saying that's wrong.  You misunderstand.  It was something that was passed on from person to person, as it still is today.

It's just like everything else.  Every field of knowledge has been built up over time to get to where it currently is.  Bill Gates didn't wake up one day and say "I'm building a computer." our of nowhere due to enlightenment on the astral plane.  He chose to study the findings of wise men.

If no one ever followed the teachings of anyone before them we would always be at square one after the previous generation passed away.  Unless you want to spend your entire life rediscovering things we've known about for centuries by yourself in a VERY narrow field of research, you're going to need to study with or study the words of numerous people who've already spent their lives doing just that.


--------------------





There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined.  Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. :crankey: 

- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual [Re: Kickle]
    #14169422 - 03/23/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Why can't one's highest part also be one's most basic part?




The base of a mountain is not the highest part of the mountain. The terms don't really seem compatible. Of course I'm open to any explanation of why the base of the mountain is also the top, and that's why I posed the question.




Well if you take away that analogy, and just view it objectively then it makes quite a bit of sense.
There is the self, just pure existence.
The first cause is survival, the pursuit of eternal freedom.
So outside of existence, what is more important than survival?

Now I'm not actually saying that is the first cause, but it is my current understanding that the first instinct which can be organized and understood - is survival.

Thats just my perspective, which is in line with the argument that the highest point is the base point. It would be the highest as the individual seeks to move within, it would be the last thing they pass.

Not to say that this point is a fact, but simply my opinion in line with the former argument - which shows how it can be possible.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual [Re: Kickle]
    #14169423 - 03/23/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
there's a duality in saying "we control our body" - implying we aren't our bodies...


I don't think that implies that we aren't our bodies, I just think putting that concept in those words is done out of simplicity/practicality--it's much better than saying, while pointing at yourself, "this body controls itself".


Quote:

deff said:
same with "my mind is.." as if we aren't our mind - implying there's some independent agent/self outside the bodymind complex - which in buddhism is a major obstacle to liberation


Again, those types of concepts are worded that way out of simplicity.


Quote:

deff said:
saying there is no self is not negating that there is experience which occurs (so it's not implying there's nothing) - just that this experience is selfless, impermanent, and unsatisfactory


IMO, there is a self, and it is composed of the body/mind.



Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Why can't one's highest part also be one's most basic part?




The base of a mountain is not the highest part of the mountain. The terms don't really seem compatible.


How is the base of a mountain its most basic part? IMO, the concept of "basic" is rather arbitrary; what is basic in one person's opinion may be complicated in another's, and vice-versa.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (03/23/11 11:52 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14169436 - 03/23/11 11:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shpongle1 said:

You implied it by saying that there had to be a "First Guru..." who somehow, on the astral plane or whatever you're sarcastically saying, suddenly came into this knowledge before anyone else.  It's a strange assumption on your part.  You may not have came out and said "We can't learn from others" but by saying that it doesn't make any sense and that he would've had to learn it all at once by some form of magic you implied it.


And I'm saying that's wrong.  You misunderstand.  It was something that was passed on from person to person, as it still is today.

It's just like everything else.  Every field of knowledge has been built up over time to get to where it currently is.  Bill Gates didn't wake up one day and say "I'm building a computer." our of nowhere due to enlightenment on the astral plane.  He chose to study the findings of wise men.

If no one ever followed the teachings of anyone before them we would always be at square one after the previous generation passed away.  Unless you want to spend your entire life rediscovering things we've known about for centuries by yourself in a VERY narrow field of research, you're going to need to study with or study the words of numerous people who've already spent their lives doing just that.





Here again I disagree, why would pure spirituality be taught by individuals through words - instead of communing with spirit itself and learning through spiritual experience?

We're not talking about science or a philisophical theory, we're talking about spirituality/mysticism. How are these individuals more charged than any other?

They make tall claims of initiations, but where is the proof that they can actually bring an individual deeper into spirit?


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 45 seconds
Re: Spiritual [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14169454 - 03/23/11 11:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

First point seen and last point seen definitely describes a top that is also the bottom :thumbup:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual [Re: Kickle]
    #14169492 - 03/23/11 11:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

lol yeah I guess so

You move out from the object and its the first thing you pass, as you come back its the last thing you pass before coming to the object. The "object" being the self

*or that would be the theory


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Edited by ahchela (03/23/11 11:40 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14169640 - 03/23/11 12:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It was something that was passed on from person to person, as it still is today.

There has to be a first person doing the passing. At some point you get to the first person to discover an idea or piece of knowledge. Just like Lucy is considered the mother of modern humanity.  It's got to have a start.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineShpongle1
Male


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Above The Clouds Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14170984 - 03/23/11 03:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:



Here again I disagree, why would pure spirituality be taught by individuals through words - instead of communing with spirit itself and learning through spiritual experience?

We're not talking about science or a philisophical theory, we're talking about spirituality/mysticism. How are these individuals more charged than any other?

They make tall claims of initiations, but where is the proof that they can actually bring an individual deeper into spirit?





I didn't say they only do it through words.  I'm not going to type out an entire novel to explain the methods of teaching of a Master/Guru.  Read the "Path of the Masters" if you require an explanation on some of their methods


Quote:

Just like Lucy is considered the mother of modern humanity.  It's got to have a start.




Yeah, Lucy had no predecessors..?  She just popped up out of the astral plane.  Either you're missing the point or...Idk but I give up trying to explain it.


--------------------





There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined.  Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. :crankey: 

- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTony
Stranger

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 958
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14171058 - 03/23/11 04:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shpongle1 said:
Quote:

Just like Lucy is considered the mother of modern humanity.  It's got to have a start.




Yeah, Lucy had no predecessors..?  She just popped up out of the astral plane.




:lol:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14171123 - 03/23/11 04:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I've read 'Path of the Masters' lol
Not pulling the rug out under me like that, infact that book is a perfect example of what I am referring to. If you've practiced the techniques given, then it should be easy to understand.

However the system got to the point where it is, it is.
You learn from the people who possess the knowledge.
You practice the techniques and absorb everything you can.
Then break through experiences come.... and

Expectation, that is all that remains to tie you to the 'gurus'.
That there is some unatainable goal which only they can lead you to.
Unless someone here is going to come forward and claim enlightenment/god realization?

If you can look inside and commune with spirit, you've found the 'path' and have no need for a 'master'.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineShpongle1
Male


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Above The Clouds Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14171216 - 03/23/11 04:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What would their purpose in lying be?  If you read The Path of the Masters then you already know that they will not accept money or gifts for their services.  They are self-sufficient people.  And if they aren't, they aren't the real deal and you shouldn't waste your time.

There are millions of people who practice it and some have written books about it because it worked for them.  It's been practiced for 1000+ years.  Are you claiming to have reached enlightenment by your methods?

I'm not really interested in defending their methods too much longer but it's just weird to see people totally disregard something that they've never been immersed in.  You can't just look at it from the outside and say "Eh, that's all bullshit."

Just the same with whoever it was argued with Deff when he mentioned the Buddhist idea that there ultimately is no self.  You read a three word summation and say "Fuck that!"  Based on how whoever that was responded it was clear that they really had NO understanding of the principles behind that statement and yet from what they surmised from three or four words they felt strongly enough to argue with the idea. 

That's a problem.


--------------------





There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined.  Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. :crankey: 

- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14171225 - 03/23/11 04:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Some first person had to make the discovery of some higher  or deeper existence cause if you are saying we were born knowing it then we don't need no guru's.

It's a power hierarchy same as the priesthood imo.  No one has ever shown that anyone is enlightened most of all the countless followers who never seem to get there themselves. Believe what you will.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14171252 - 03/23/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If you read The Path of the Masters then you already know that they will not accept money or gifts for their services.

No food or free lodging etc. They all work for a living at a trade or some such? Really?  Really?

Can you link me to a living master who does this?  I'd love to know about them.  As far as I've seen here most live on donations and gifts or the money from their words.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14171319 - 03/23/11 04:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No problems, only solutions.

It would do you well to go back and read my posts, at least to know what my position is. I've said multiple times that I don't believe in enlightenment, so putting the stigma that I am claiming to be enlightened - is a falacious argument.

As you said "there are millions of people who practice it and some have written books about it because it has worked for them."
My methods are pretty much the same as the Sants, a little different, but you would know who I learned from if you were around me. There is a lot to what they teach, what gets me is the hook at the end.

Have you tried the techniques they recommend?
If so, then why did you claim - that I am claiming enlightenment from their techniques? Communing with spirit directly is the very essence of their teachings.

If you can project and commune with spirit... what need is there of an authority?

~~~

As far as honesty goes, I believe there are honest teachers out there, but most are not. Control, ego, and money are generally the motives of a teacher.
Either way, if god or enlightenment exists - you'll be finding it on your own. Up to a point in any field, you need a teacher, and when you can do the job on your own - you stop paying the teacher.

What I'm arguing for, is simply the idea that past a certain point you do not need a teacher. Thats really it.
So if this argument continues, the idea is that you believe one always needs a teacher?


Just clarifying


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineShpongle1
Male


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Above The Clouds Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
    #14171370 - 03/23/11 05:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm going to do this because this is a discussion on "Masters" (Saints) and yet it seems that the majority of people here have no idea what that even is.  This is an excerpt from "The Path of the Masters" by Julian Johnson, a doctor who went to India to spread the word of Christ.  He went back years later and studied with a Sant for a couple years and then wrote the book about their Sant Mat, or Radha Soami tradition of India.

Objective Indices of Mastership

We mean by objective indices that sort of evidence which other people, anybody, may see and understand.  In addition to all that has been said about the Masters, there are a few infallible indices which serve to distinguish real Masters from all others who may pose as Masters.  Some of them are:

(1) First and most noticeable is the important face that real Masters never charge for their services, nor do they accept payment in any form or any sort of material benefits for their instructions.  This is a universal law among Masters, and yet it is an amazing fact that thousands of eager seekers in America and elsewhere go on paying large sums of money for 'spiritual instruction'.  Masters are always self-sustaining.  They are never supported by their students of public charity.

(2) Masters never boast of their mastership or of their spiritual powers or attainments.  If any man claims to have attained the highest in spiritual development, that claim of itself may be taken as conclusive proof that he has not attained so much.  Masters always show the utmost humility, but they never make their humility obtrusive.  They never do anything to advertise their humility or to exhibit it to public gaze.

(3)  Masters never complain about their treatment at the hands of others.  Even if yo uabuse one, he will not reply angrily nor will he speak of it afterward.  They never speak of their hard luck or of the ingratitude of their beneficiaries.

(4)  Masters never find fault or blame others either to their faces or behind their backs, no matter what the provocation.  They speak no ill and they never lecture others concerning their shortcomings.  They exalt the positive virtues, keeping silent about the evil, except to answer questions or give necessary warnings.

(5)  Masters never punish anybody, even their worst enemies or those who have mistreated them.  They leave the punishment of evildoers to the negative power, whose business it is to administer justice.  Their lives are governed entirely by the law of love.  They give of their light and love, even as the sun gives its light and heat, and ask nothing in return.


--------------------





There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined.  Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. :crankey: 

- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineShpongle1
Male


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Above The Clouds Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14171373 - 03/23/11 05:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

(6)  Masters are never given to ascetic practices or unreasonable austerities.  This is one quality which differentiates them from certain types of yogis.  Masters insist that everyone should give attention to his health of body as well as of mind and soul.  They always teach that it is a duty to keep the body clean, healthy and well nourished.  Of course, they teach that it is wrong to eat too much.  And nothing should ever be taken into the body that is not a wholesome food or drink.  They teach also that the body must never be made an instrument of passionate enjoyment just for the sake of pleasurable sensations.  When you see anyone given to self-torture or to self-indulgence, you may know at once that he is not a Master.  Some yogis seek to control the mind by torturing the body, but that is a vain effort.  Mind can never be subdued that way.

(7)  masters never go about begging for their living.  They are always self-supporting.  The Master is alwayss the giver, but never a beggar.  Neither does he permit his disciples to beg their living while sitting around in idleness.  So when you see anyone begging his living or charging for his spiritual instruction, you may know that he is neither a Master nor even a disciple of a Master.  Guru Nanak says:  "He who earns an honest living and gives away something out of it in charity, knows the Way."

(8) A real Master never performs miracles for public exhibition.  He may do miracles on special occasions and for particular reasons, but in every case it is kept a secret from the public.  It is a fixed law with real saints that they will never do miracles to win disciples.  Yogis often do miracles, healing the sick and other things, but real Masters never do them, except on very special occasions and for urgent reasons.

(9) All genuine Masters teach and practice the audible life stream, or sound current, called in Hinidi the Shabd.  That is the central theme of all their discourses, the very core of their meditations.  As this current is the life of the world itself, so it is the life of every Master throughout all his daily practices.  It is the paramount theme of which he talks at all times.  If a man preaches and practices the life current, it is presumptive evidence that he is a Master, although it is not conclusive.  But if a man does not preach and practice it, does not mention it in his discourses, that alone is the most conclusive evidence that he is not a Master.  This is the universal teaching of all Masters, most conspicuous in their teachings and practices.  Let this, then, be your chief test of all men posing as Masters and of all systems offering to guide you to higher worlds.  If they have not the life stream as the very essence of their system, they have nothing.

(10)  If any yogi, or other man claiming to be a Master, teaches that Brahm Lok, or the region of Brahm, is the highest of all heavens and that Brahm is the supreme God, then you may know of a certainty that he is not a Master.  For Brahm Lok is only the second of the higher regions, or planes, while above that are six other planes, in an ascending scales, each higher and greater than the one below it.  In the grand hierarchy of the universe, Brahm, the ruler of Trikuti and the Three Worlds, is but a humble subordinate under the supreme one.

The above are only a few of the outstanding indices of mastership.  There are many others.  But a careful study of these will act as sufficient safeguard against deceit by pretenders.  The counterfeit Master will always show his cloven foot if he is carefully watched for a short time.


--------------------





There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined.  Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. :crankey: 

- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
    #14171402 - 03/23/11 05:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Many of the people in this forum have "masters" who take money or accept donations and gifts or sell their teachings for money or something similar as as far as I know.  Are these not real masters?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeff
just love everyone
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 48 minutes
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
    #14171452 - 03/23/11 05:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

my teacher doesn't accept money - he says to donate it to animal liberation efforts instead

though i have no problem if masters accept donations or beg, it's a great way for others to accumulate merit, plus they have to support themselves somehow :shrug:


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: deff]
    #14171648 - 03/23/11 05:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Not good according to the above poster.

Your guru could always get a job in a grocery store like many working people do.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
    #14171664 - 03/23/11 05:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, how is leeching off of other people's earnings spiritual? lol


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethe bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Poid]
    #14171863 - 03/23/11 06:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

sooner or later the slaves are going to revolt against their masters


--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD 
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: the bizzle]
    #14171908 - 03/23/11 06:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:waddymelon:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: the bizzle]
    #14171956 - 03/23/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the bizzle said:
sooner or later the slaves are going to revolt against their masters





If history is any indication they just trade one for another. It's human nature.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Poid]
    #14172060 - 03/23/11 07:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Yeah, how is leeching off of other people's earnings spiritual? lol



So you would call your exercise instructor, or your basketball coach a leech for charging for there services???


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedeff
just love everyone
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 48 minutes
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
    #14172114 - 03/23/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Not good according to the above poster.

Your guru could always get a job in a grocery store like many working people do.




he's actually a movie director :lol:

on top of overseeing two charities, a monastery, and teaching all over the world

he's pretty busy :sun:


--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14172122 - 03/23/11 07:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Yeah, how is leeching off of other people's earnings spiritual? lol



So you would call your exercise instructor, or your basketball coach a leech for charging for there services???




Personally I see no problem charging for instruction time, the problem is more along the lines of how it works with guitar lessons. A lot of guitarists will purposely teach you just enough to keep you coming back, not trying to really get you to grow but trying to farm an income off of you.
The idea is that if you learn too much, you won't need them anymore.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14173207 - 03/23/11 10:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Good point. Which is why i say stay away from spiritual cults, cause they will make you pay for 30 years by giving you watered down techniques. The masters i am learning from sell enlightenment in one package, one time wonder, and i dont have to buy anymore. I know they are legit cause they charge, for valuable information, and its one time pay. "Ok you want enlightment, you can get it FAST, buy this" non of this 10-30 years BS. Also they give out free meditations so i can test out the information for myself. Some people are so egotistical that they will judge anything.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14173229 - 03/23/11 10:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Yeah, how is leeching off of other people's earnings spiritual? lol



So you would call your exercise instructor, or your basketball coach a leech for charging for there services???


I'm talking about those spiritual beggars that panhandle all day in the streets from people whom they provide no "services" for in order to support themselves, not people who charge for "spiritual meetups" or "satsangs" and such.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Poid]
    #14173242 - 03/23/11 10:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ahh woops my bad :cool:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14173264 - 03/23/11 10:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

People like this:



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Poid]
    #14173273 - 03/23/11 10:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why the hell do they have to beg?? Is begging suppose to be spiritual or something??


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14173275 - 03/23/11 10:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Doesnt make any sense :shrug:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14173283 - 03/23/11 11:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think they have to beg because they're more concentrated on realizing the self or some crap than having to make money at a job; this is what I've heard, anyway. :shrug2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Poid]
    #14173302 - 03/23/11 11:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

They just heard some idea from "GURU" and they take it way too seriously. I bet there sperm count sucks too, thats probably a good way to tell if someone is really spiritual connected they should have healthy sperm.:shrug:

Healthy sperm creates life to its maximum :mmmkay:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14173316 - 03/23/11 11:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Fuck life. :stoned:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Poid]
    #14173322 - 03/23/11 11:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why say that?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14173325 - 03/23/11 11:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Your stuck in life better start enjoying it


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14173329 - 03/23/11 11:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I try my best. :whacker:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Poid]
    #14173338 - 03/23/11 11:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You should do that to a real girl :lol:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14173358 - 03/23/11 11:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:mjk2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Poid]
    #14173379 - 03/23/11 11:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Her:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14173396 - 03/23/11 11:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:fonda:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleahchela
Tourist
Male


Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14174285 - 03/24/11 05:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Good point. Which is why i say stay away from spiritual cults, cause they will make you pay for 30 years by giving you watered down techniques. The masters i am learning from sell enlightenment in one package, one time wonder, and i dont have to buy anymore. I know they are legit cause they charge, for valuable information, and its one time pay. "Ok you want enlightment, you can get it FAST, buy this" non of this 10-30 years BS. Also they give out free meditations so i can test out the information for myself. Some people are so egotistical that they will judge anything.




Are you talking about drugs now?


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineelectricfeel
wild wallflower
Female

Registered: 05/19/10
Posts: 554
Loc: sinking into the center
Last seen: 7 months, 17 days
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14178094 - 03/24/11 07:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:
In my time I've studied, practiced and believed in a few different religions. Most notably Buddhism and different paths of Hinduism.

I've found that I agree with a lot of different concepts which formulate these two religions. However I do not agree with the concept of a "Master" or "Guru". One needs mentors when they're first starting out and information to get them started, but not authoritarian figures.
No one has a hold over truth, and there are no holy books.
Only collections of writing and poems.

Most importantly, the path within is the path within, not into someone else's idea of truth - but the truth inside.

:peace:





I didn't read this whole thread, looks like it derailed a bit (hah) but on the topic of the original post... I agree with the OP. The topic of the "master" or "guru" has been the one topic in buddhism/hinduism/etc that I have struggled with more than anything. Something about it, or the way it is practiced, has always just seemed a little "off" to me, for the exact reasons you have described. Personally, according to my studies of Buddhism and eastern philosophy thus far (which has been very limited, but still) I consider EVERYTHING to be my "master", not only myself but also every person I meet and every experience itself that I have, I try to always have my eyes open to what this current moment is trying to teach me, using the people and situations around me as "pawns" for the lessons. Therefore, everything is both a "master" and "disciple" to all, we are all simultaneously teaching and learning from each other. It would be great to have some DIRECT guidance from someone further on the path who has been where I have been to talk to during the times where I feel especially lost. But as far as the notion that having an all-knowing master to be completely subservient to is REQUIRED to achieve enlightenment, I'm all with the OP.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGoose
Student of life
Male


Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 246
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: electricfeel]
    #14179576 - 03/24/11 11:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

it would be nice to  have some one to talk to along the way but not a necessity


--------------------
"i will study and prepare myself so that when my opportunity comes i will be ready" Abraham Lincoln


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 59 minutes, 46 seconds
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Goose]
    #14179598 - 03/25/11 12:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Anyone read the book The Alchemist? That comment you just made reminded me of it Goose. Your title reminds me of it too.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGoose
Student of life
Male


Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 246
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Kickle]
    #14179863 - 03/25/11 01:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

the alchemist was a good book


--------------------
"i will study and prepare myself so that when my opportunity comes i will be ready" Abraham Lincoln


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMLDSMDA
All good things in all good time
Male


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 259
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14233896 - 04/03/11 10:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I agree you only need one at the beginning really, but it's helpful to have someone further a long the path to talk to you know? And yes you are right, all the answers reside withing in us. But It's a two way street man and some people have to look for the answers outside themselves. All paths lead to the same thing in the end, it's just some are longer and some shorter.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore Injection Grain Bag   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Heaven is coming to earth *the sequel*
( 1 2 3 4 ... 51 52 )
zorbman 178,039 1,020 03/15/18 06:53 PM
by BrendanFlock
* Conflict Resolution on the Higher Planes jcldragon 3,404 12 08/29/10 05:57 AM
by jcldragon
* Spiritual Awakening: Two Future Streams of Probability MAIA 3,761 16 09/14/06 10:12 PM
by Telepylus
* Use of mushrooms or salvia for spiritual exploration... garfixas 1,398 5 11/10/06 12:05 AM
by sleepy
* Astral projection demiu5 1,575 3 10/13/06 05:20 PM
by Jackenobi
* OBE, astral projection
( 1 2 all )
XUL 6,361 21 09/01/06 01:29 AM
by xaxphaanes
* Question about astral projection/OOBEs LazyCrash 2,602 3 10/12/05 10:12 PM
by LazyCrash
* Astral Projection...
( 1 2 all )
Cracka_X 6,402 38 08/21/09 07:11 PM
by pong

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Shroomism, Rose, Kickle, yogabunny, DividedQuantum
8,516 topic views. 0 members, 3 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.076 seconds spending 0.012 seconds on 14 queries.