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deff
just love everyone



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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
#14167941 - 03/23/11 12:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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good post, shpongle1
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Icelander
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1] 1
#14168093 - 03/23/11 01:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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You need someone who has been there before you to guide you and show you. Eventually, you are the "pilot" but you still have your Master/Guru there to guide you and "introduce you" if you will, at the different levels of the trip.
The reason this does not make sense is there would have to have been the first guru. How did he make the impossible trip and receive all the benefits without his own guru?
Of course one can say that dudes guru came to him on the astral plane or some such. But you didn't and now you can't without looking like you're just making shit up.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
#14168114 - 03/23/11 01:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ahchela said: In my time I've studied, practiced and believed in a few different religions. Most notably Buddhism and different paths of Hinduism.
I've found that I agree with a lot of different concepts which formulate these two religions. However I do not agree with the concept of a "Master" or "Guru". One needs mentors when they're first starting out and information to get them started, but not authoritarian figures. No one has a hold over truth, and there are no holy books. Only collections of writing and poems.
Most importantly, the path within is the path within, not into someone else's idea of truth - but the truth inside.

True, but to bring suppleness into the mind humility is necessary & you can't be much more humble (or stupid) than surrendering to another human (depending on who they are)
The part of you that doesn't like 'Gurus' or 'Masters', that part of you must die before 'you' awaken to truth. If you were fully awake to the truth then you wouldn't have ANY problem with Masters because you would see these dudes as reflections of your own eternal being, not as 'other' people that are separate from you that you then should be resisting.
Don't like it? Then you proove my point...
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
#14168361 - 03/23/11 03:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Kickle said: Re-asking A question I posed to the OP, would any of you who are opposed to a master listen to a doctor who told you that treating the early stages of a disease, when you are not physically experience its effects, would be of incredible benefit? Or would you listen to your individual experience, acting only when the disease fully surfaced in your life?
I might listen but then I would do some research to see if I agreed with the Doc. They tend to be mighty dangerous know it alls with a god complex.
So true.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Icelander
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Chronic7]
#14168520 - 03/23/11 06:00 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Don't like it? Then you proove my point...
This very much reminds me of how my questions and criticisms were treated and responded to when I was a young lad in church.
I have never thought less of something you've said here. IMO it's a form of emotional bullying. Something said when one's sacred beliefs are challenged and indefensible.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Chronic7]
#14168568 - 03/23/11 06:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
ahchela said: In my time I've studied, practiced and believed in a few different religions. Most notably Buddhism and different paths of Hinduism.
I've found that I agree with a lot of different concepts which formulate these two religions. However I do not agree with the concept of a "Master" or "Guru". One needs mentors when they're first starting out and information to get them started, but not authoritarian figures. No one has a hold over truth, and there are no holy books. Only collections of writing and poems.
Most importantly, the path within is the path within, not into someone else's idea of truth - but the truth inside.

True, but to bring suppleness into the mind humility is necessary & you can't be much more humble (or stupid) than surrendering to another human (depending on who they are)
The part of you that doesn't like 'Gurus' or 'Masters', that part of you must die before 'you' awaken to truth. If you were fully awake to the truth then you wouldn't have ANY problem with Masters because you would see these dudes as reflections of your own eternal being, not as 'other' people that are separate from you that you then should be resisting.
So what if he is more "awakened" than these masters? Wouldn't that mean that, since he as a problem with them, they aren't masters?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Chronic7]
#14168769 - 03/23/11 08:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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In the same way one can not have a problem with Hitler. Just because you are not attached to what others do doesn't mean that you can't call them out on their bullshit.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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ahchela
Tourist



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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Chronic7]
#14168967 - 03/23/11 09:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
True, but to bring suppleness into the mind humility is necessary & you can't be much more humble (or stupid) than surrendering to another human (depending on who they are)
The part of you that doesn't like 'Gurus' or 'Masters', that part of you must die before 'you' awaken to truth. If you were fully awake to the truth then you wouldn't have ANY problem with Masters because you would see these dudes as reflections of your own eternal being, not as 'other' people that are separate from you that you then should be resisting.
Don't like it? Then you proove my point... 
If they are only reflections of myself (which I don't believe for a second) I need them even less. I think the part of me that doesn't like 'Gurus' is the very highest part of me, the part of me that lives for freedom and survival. Autonomy.
Eventually there comes a time when you're a man and you don't look up to anyone in this world, why should it be any different in the greater idea of life itself? Call it pride if you will, I call it self-respect, self-responsibility, and self-control.
-------------------- Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.
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Kickle
Wanderer


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Re: Spiritual [Re: ahchela]
#14169031 - 03/23/11 10:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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What makes you think it is the highest part of yourself?
I'm not claiming that it isn't, but there are many who consider that the "root" or the base of the tree of life. The drive to survive and its inevitable push towards autonomy is considered to be the most basic level and inherent to all life.
What makes you think that it is the highest part of yourself instead of the most basic?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




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Re: Spiritual [Re: Kickle]
#14169080 - 03/23/11 10:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why can't one's highest part also be one's most basic part?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Shpongle1



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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
#14169094 - 03/23/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: You need someone who has been there before you to guide you and show you. Eventually, you are the "pilot" but you still have your Master/Guru there to guide you and "introduce you" if you will, at the different levels of the trip.
The reason this does not make sense is there would have to have been the first guru. How did he make the impossible trip and receive all the benefits without his own guru?
Of course one can say that dudes guru came to him on the astral plane or some such. But you didn't and now you can't without looking like you're just making shit up.
No, it does make sense. Can you not think of any examples where something took more than one lifetime to come to fruition? Where numerous people gave their lives and were UNsuccessful at reaching their goal but passed on enough knowledge for later generations to finally become successful and reach the goal due to all of their combined efforts? Some things take efforts that span generations to finally work out.
It makes sense. You could spend your entire life fumbling your own way along and never reach the goal as others have done before. Or, you could learn from those who have had direct experience and trust their words as fact and see for yourself. This is another reason why they believe a true, living Master/Guru is needed for a disciple to reach Anaami, or the highest region of their practice of Surat Shabd yoga (but the same applies to any Eastern traditions that I'm aware of.)
Obviously if you were going to try to study a very specific field of science and be successful, you would need to take the words and experiments and discoveries of those before you as truth in order to proceed with any logic of success. This is one example of what I was saying earlier, something where you do NEED information that would take more than your own lifetime to gather in order to reach your final goal. Imagine needing to first figure out what gravity or even density was before you could ultimately go on to study planetary motion. You would never get there, never succeed. You need the help of many people who came before you, not ONE person who randomly met someone on the astral plane and then knew everything........ 
If you don't believe that that is a fair example, (relating science to spirituality/mysticism) then maybe that is the real issue with not wanting to have trust or faith in a Master. You might think that it's different for everyone. Or there is no "truth". Well, I don't have a Master or Guru or anything like that but I'm intrigued by their teachings. And I for one DO believe that there are inherent truths when it comes to the human spirit, life, love, etc. And generally, most people all over the world for centuries believe this too. The biggest differences between most religions is a perversion of the basic teachings that occurs long after the originally teacher/master/lord whateverthehell is long gone. The book "The Harmony of All Religions" is a good one to read more about this.
Anyway, I'm getting off topic now. But still, in response... It DOES make sense.
-------------------- There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined. Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens.
- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.
Edited by Shpongle1 (03/23/11 10:21 AM)
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: Spiritual [Re: Poid]
#14169097 - 03/23/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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usually people cite the highest part as the most transcendental, for whatever reason
Quote:
Eventually there comes a time when you're a man and you don't look up to anyone in this world, why should it be any different in the greater idea of life itself? Call it pride if you will, I call it self-respect, self-responsibility, and self-control.
in buddhism though there's no self, so clinging to the illusion of self control and self respect is an illusion which binds one to samsara. submission is a very convenient way to cut through the sense of self, although an unpopular one in the west i gather...
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Poid
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Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: Spiritual [Re: deff]
#14169127 - 03/23/11 10:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said: in buddhism though there's no self...
This is a ridiculous notion IMO--we exist, and we are conscious of our own existence, so there is a "self". We can control our bodies, and can have respect for ourselves, I don't see why anybody would believe otherwise.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deff
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Re: Spiritual [Re: Poid]
#14169141 - 03/23/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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there's a duality in saying "we control our body" - implying we aren't our bodies... same with "my mind is.." as if we aren't our mind - implying there's some independent agent/self outside the bodymind complex - which in buddhism is a major obstacle to liberation
saying there is no self is not negating that there is experience which occurs (so it's not implying there's nothing) - just that this experience is selfless, impermanent, and unsatisfactory
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ahchela
Tourist



Registered: 03/01/11
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Re: Spiritual [Re: deff]
#14169233 - 03/23/11 10:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well I'm not Buddhist/Hindu or part of any other theological system.
I'll say my body, my mind, but not my soul. Soul being a more poetic way to say, self. Self just referring to me, my existence. Negating self is negating existence. Believing in the oneness of life is a precursor to negating the self, if I don't believe life is one then I see no reason to negate myself.
I think Sphongle has a good point but it falls short on one all important aspect. Life itself will teach you if you learn to listen.
Not trying to be controversial here, but there are a few things I don't believe in, these are things which I see as control mechanisms set up by the mystical elites.
1) God 2) Oneness of all life 3) Enlightenment 4) The absolute need of a Guru 5) The sanctity of any individual over any other
The reason I'm clarifying this, is because without the first 3 there is no need of a guru once you can project yourself. There is a lot of contradictory information about the first 3, and they are unatainable. So in my view they exist only to keep advanced students under the pernament control.
"He who claims enlightenment, is not enlightened... but enlightenment is possible, you just know you have it... but if you think you have it you don't... you don't understand? That is what I'm here for!" No thanks.
-------------------- Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Spiritual [Re: Poid]
#14169234 - 03/23/11 10:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
This is a ridiculous notion IMO--we exist, and we are conscious of our own existence, so there is a "self". We can control our bodies,
What makes you think there is a "you" who had any control over what you just wrote? Humans are just machines acting out their given codes. There is nothing there to be in control, there's just a bunch of code which isn't related to anything at all. There cannot be any controller at the wheel other than general reality. A human is just one part of a pattern stemming through time.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Shpongle1]
#14169305 - 03/23/11 10:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shpongle1 said:
Quote:
Icelander said: You need someone who has been there before you to guide you and show you. Eventually, you are the "pilot" but you still have your Master/Guru there to guide you and "introduce you" if you will, at the different levels of the trip.
The reason this does not make sense is there would have to have been the first guru. How did he make the impossible trip and receive all the benefits without his own guru?
Of course one can say that dudes guru came to him on the astral plane or some such. But you didn't and now you can't without looking like you're just making shit up.
No, it does make sense. Can you not think of any examples where something took more than one lifetime to come to fruition? Where numerous people gave their lives and were UNsuccessful at reaching their goal but passed on enough knowledge for later generations to finally become successful and reach the goal due to all of their combined efforts? Some things take efforts that span generations to finally work out.
It makes sense. You could spend your entire life fumbling your own way along and never reach the goal as others have done before. Or, you could learn from those who have had direct experience and trust their words as fact and see for yourself. This is another reason why they believe a true, living Master/Guru is needed for a disciple to reach Anaami, or the highest region of their practice of Surat Shabd yoga (but the same applies to any Eastern traditions that I'm aware of.)
Obviously if you were going to try to study a very specific field of science and be successful, you would need to take the words and experiments and discoveries of those before you as truth in order to proceed with any logic of success. This is one example of what I was saying earlier, something where you do NEED information that would take more than your own lifetime to gather in order to reach your final goal. Imagine needing to first figure out what gravity or even density was before you could ultimately go on to study planetary motion. You would never get there, never succeed. You need the help of many people who came before you, not ONE person who randomly met someone on the astral plane and then knew everything........ 
If you don't believe that that is a fair example, (relating science to spirituality/mysticism) then maybe that is the real issue with not wanting to have trust or faith in a Master. You might think that it's different for everyone. Or there is no "truth". Well, I don't have a Master or Guru or anything like that but I'm intrigued by their teachings. And I for one DO believe that there are inherent truths when it comes to the human spirit, life, love, etc. And generally, most people all over the world for centuries believe this too. The biggest differences between most religions is a perversion of the basic teachings that occurs long after the originally teacher/master/lord whateverthehell is long gone. The book "The Harmony of All Religions" is a good one to read more about this.
Anyway, I'm getting off topic now. But still, in response... It DOES make sense.
You really didn't address my response to the other poster.
I never said we can't learn from others.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Spiritual [Re: Poid]
#14169321 - 03/23/11 10:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: Why can't one's highest part also be one's most basic part?
The base of a mountain is not the highest part of the mountain. The terms don't really seem compatible. Of course I'm open to any explanation of why the base of the mountain is also the top, and that's why I posed the question.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Shpongle1



Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Above The Clouds
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Icelander]
#14169407 - 03/23/11 11:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Shpongle1 said:
Quote:
Icelander said: You need someone who has been there before you to guide you and show you. Eventually, you are the "pilot" but you still have your Master/Guru there to guide you and "introduce you" if you will, at the different levels of the trip.
The reason this does not make sense is there would have to have been the first guru. How did he make the impossible trip and receive all the benefits without his own guru?
Of course one can say that dudes guru came to him on the astral plane or some such. But you didn't and now you can't without looking like you're just making shit up.
No, it does make sense. Can you not think of any examples where something took more than one lifetime to come to fruition? Where numerous people gave their lives and were UNsuccessful at reaching their goal but passed on enough knowledge for later generations to finally become successful and reach the goal due to all of their combined efforts? Some things take efforts that span generations to finally work out.
It makes sense. You could spend your entire life fumbling your own way along and never reach the goal as others have done before. Or, you could learn from those who have had direct experience and trust their words as fact and see for yourself. This is another reason why they believe a true, living Master/Guru is needed for a disciple to reach Anaami, or the highest region of their practice of Surat Shabd yoga (but the same applies to any Eastern traditions that I'm aware of.)
Obviously if you were going to try to study a very specific field of science and be successful, you would need to take the words and experiments and discoveries of those before you as truth in order to proceed with any logic of success. This is one example of what I was saying earlier, something where you do NEED information that would take more than your own lifetime to gather in order to reach your final goal. Imagine needing to first figure out what gravity or even density was before you could ultimately go on to study planetary motion. You would never get there, never succeed. You need the help of many people who came before you, not ONE person who randomly met someone on the astral plane and then knew everything........ 
If you don't believe that that is a fair example, (relating science to spirituality/mysticism) then maybe that is the real issue with not wanting to have trust or faith in a Master. You might think that it's different for everyone. Or there is no "truth". Well, I don't have a Master or Guru or anything like that but I'm intrigued by their teachings. And I for one DO believe that there are inherent truths when it comes to the human spirit, life, love, etc. And generally, most people all over the world for centuries believe this too. The biggest differences between most religions is a perversion of the basic teachings that occurs long after the originally teacher/master/lord whateverthehell is long gone. The book "The Harmony of All Religions" is a good one to read more about this.
Anyway, I'm getting off topic now. But still, in response... It DOES make sense.
You really didn't address my response to the other poster.
I never said we can't learn from others.
You implied it by saying that there had to be a "First Guru..." who somehow, on the astral plane or whatever you're sarcastically saying, suddenly came into this knowledge before anyone else. It's a strange assumption on your part. You may not have came out and said "We can't learn from others" but by saying that it doesn't make any sense and that he would've had to learn it all at once by some form of magic you implied it.
And I'm saying that's wrong. You misunderstand. It was something that was passed on from person to person, as it still is today.
It's just like everything else. Every field of knowledge has been built up over time to get to where it currently is. Bill Gates didn't wake up one day and say "I'm building a computer." our of nowhere due to enlightenment on the astral plane. He chose to study the findings of wise men.
If no one ever followed the teachings of anyone before them we would always be at square one after the previous generation passed away. Unless you want to spend your entire life rediscovering things we've known about for centuries by yourself in a VERY narrow field of research, you're going to need to study with or study the words of numerous people who've already spent their lives doing just that.
-------------------- There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined. Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens.
- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.
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ahchela
Tourist



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
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Re: Spiritual [Re: Kickle]
#14169422 - 03/23/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Poid said: Why can't one's highest part also be one's most basic part?
The base of a mountain is not the highest part of the mountain. The terms don't really seem compatible. Of course I'm open to any explanation of why the base of the mountain is also the top, and that's why I posed the question.
Well if you take away that analogy, and just view it objectively then it makes quite a bit of sense. There is the self, just pure existence. The first cause is survival, the pursuit of eternal freedom. So outside of existence, what is more important than survival?
Now I'm not actually saying that is the first cause, but it is my current understanding that the first instinct which can be organized and understood - is survival.
Thats just my perspective, which is in line with the argument that the highest point is the base point. It would be the highest as the individual seeks to move within, it would be the last thing they pass.
Not to say that this point is a fact, but simply my opinion in line with the former argument - which shows how it can be possible.
-------------------- Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.
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