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Invisibleahchela
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Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus"
    #14162878 - 03/22/11 02:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

In my time I've studied, practiced and believed in a few different religions. Most notably Buddhism and different paths of Hinduism.

I've found that I agree with a lot of different concepts which formulate these two religions. However I do not agree with the concept of a "Master" or "Guru". One needs mentors when they're first starting out and information to get them started, but not authoritarian figures.
No one has a hold over truth, and there are no holy books.
Only collections of writing and poems.

Most importantly, the path within is the path within, not into someone else's idea of truth - but the truth inside.

:peace:


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Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

Edited by ahchela (03/22/11 02:11 AM)

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Offlineusulpsychonaut
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14162921 - 03/22/11 02:28 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Masters and Symbolic sacraments never worked for me.

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14162942 - 03/22/11 02:40 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

No one has a hold over truth




Really? The Buddha, Jesus, Muhammud, Shankara, Rumi, Hazif, etc. You do not believe they found truth?

Quote:

Most importantly, the path within is the path within, not into someone else's idea of truth - but the truth inside




Are you suggesting truth is subjective? Is the truth within me any different then it is within you?

Quote:

No one has a hold over truth, and there are no holy books.





Agreed although I believe some books can be consider more holy then others in terms of their usefulness.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14162957 - 03/22/11 02:48 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Did they find truth? You tell me if you've met any one of them.
What is truth? The finality of it which is proposed to be found by them?

My original statement was that no one is the master of anyone elses universe, the individual is the master of their own universe.
Thats freedom in my understanding.
Who are these people who claim to be 'the way'?

I am not a guru so I won't tell you what to think or try to sell you my book, but I state again my opinion or subjective understanding.
The only guru is the self.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

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OfflineJoolz
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14162962 - 03/22/11 02:50 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I believe in respecting those much wiser than you, of course, and listening to their wisdom. I also believe truth is subjective, and goes from person to person. Really, saying that you are "the way" seems very obnoxious to me. Maybe "a way", but I don't believe in "the way".


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Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Joolz]
    #14162976 - 03/22/11 02:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Concur, teachers are neccessary, but not masters.

Personally I have had many teachers and respect many of them, there are people I have met who could see very far. Though I would never compare myself to anyone else, such would be limiting.


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Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Joolz]
    #14162981 - 03/22/11 03:00 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Did they find truth? You tell me if you've met any one of them.
What is truth? The finality of it which is proposed to be found by them?






I'v many of their words such as those of Jesus and I consider them to be incredibly brilliant, inspiring and beautiful and I understand that without any force he conquered more men then any general ever could in the history of men, delivering great ideals and values to mankind. I acknowledg the great significance of this.

The Buddha was also a logical genius and delivered incredible discourses involving the nature of reality.

Quote:

What is truth? The finality of it which is proposed to be found by them?





It's more so about what isn't true then what is true, you cannot point out the truth and say there it is. However you can point out what is false.

A master or teacher is useful for any mundane part of life. The spiritual path is the highest ideal and ultimate goal of life. It is uncharted territory - the question is how couldn't a master be useful?


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14162990 - 03/22/11 03:03 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

the question is how couldn't a master be useful?




If you limit yourself to being equal to your master.


--------------------
Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: Joolz]
    #14163002 - 03/22/11 03:11 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Or you realize they weren't sent by God? That they are not the sole distributor of truth?
People flock to leaders, I understand the paternal instinct.

But I have no master.
I'll study the words of those I consider intelligent, and I'll integrate what comes into being from that.
But I have no master,  I am my own man.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14163017 - 03/22/11 03:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


I'll study the words of those I consider intelligent, and I'll integrate what comes into being from that.
But I have no master,  I am my own man.




Thats a good attitude and will serve you well for a long time. You seem to think accepting a master denotes weakness, which I believce is true for many many people, just look at India. Hundres of millions of people who cannot think for themselves flocking to false Gurus, its a terrible shame.

I however believe their are particular reason why someone is needed to help you on the final states on the path of gnosis. These reasons cannot be understood with ordinary logic or "common sense" as they are only understood when you are actually closer to enlightenment. IMO anyway.. Meher Baba gives some solid explainations as to why a master is useful. He however states that one can make serious advances under their own efforts, such as Sri Aurobindo.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163028 - 03/22/11 03:29 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Heres an interesting segment from the book 'Essentials of Metaphysics' by Christopher Ott.

(the general point of this few paragraphis is that intellectual knowledge can only take one so far and we cannot necessarily depend upon our intuition to be correct either)

"How do we know our logic about the primary and secondary qualities is right, when it is already established that intuitions used to form logic have no sure justification independent of experience
of those intuitions? From a purely intellectual point of view we simply don’t. The way that contemplatives have traditionally dealt with their own limitations is to seek a teacher or examine the testimony of scriptures. Plato learned from Socrates, Aristotle from Plato. Socrates was a master. Spiritual inquiry divorced from respect of the perfect masters and the Avatar is barren and
bound to be fruitless and frivolous. Shankara interpreted the Upanishads. Meher Baba learned from Upasni Maharaj, Maharaj from Sai Baba. There is no being a maverick on the path of gnosis.

Someone once wrote to Meher Baba about a scientist who was keeping a monkey brain alive by feeding it blood from a donor monkey in a grotesque and cruel manner. He claimed this proved the soul of the monkey was in the brain. This was in 1967. Baba asked that the scientist be sent a copy of God Speaks and that he write to him immediately. The correspondence has not survived. This is all I can think of to say. One can only read God Speaks, the Vedas, the scriptures of the great traditions, or seek a master directly. All this that I am writing, right or wrong, is in one way or another no more than an interpretation of God Speaks, with an eye to shedding light on certain scientific and metaphysical points, and integrating those points into a cohesive spiritual metaphysics that might be of use to others."


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163042 - 03/22/11 03:35 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

One can leave the body and travel inner worlds without a master.
One can commune with spirit or the force of life, without a guide.

If one is trully far, why would they need a master?
Masters are for students.

I'm no master, but I certainly don't need one either. That is the individuals perrogative and I see no reason to put another man in a position to limit my freedom.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14163077 - 03/22/11 03:53 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

One can leave the body and travel inner worlds without a master.
One can commune with spirit or the force of life, without a guide.

If one is trully far, why would they need a master?
Masters are for students.





Travelling inner planes is one thing but becoming enligtened is another. The spiritual path becomes more difficult as you progress on it. According to Meher there is an infinite abyss between the 6th plane and the final plane the 7th where one becomes one with God. It is primarily at the 6th plane where one needs God to become one with God. Jesus was one with God and that is why he is the path the truth and the light. These are my beliefs anyway.

"I'm no master, but I certainly don't need one either. That is the individuals perrogative and I see no reason to put another man in a position to limit my freedom."

"In the beginning the mind grumbles, Why should I obey someone? But Hafiz consoles the mind by saying, On Mind! This bondage to the
Master alone can give eternal Freedom. The chosen ones of the Perfect Master obey Him implicitly. He who becomes the perfect 'slave' becomes a Perfect Master."

_______________


"The journey seems infinitely long while you are passing through
the dream-experiences of reincarnation and the six planes of
involution, until finally you merge into yourself to emerge as Self.
But the journey is after all no journey: it is simply the momentum
of your urge to awaken from the Dream and get established in the
reality of the God-state of Infinite Consciousness. To awaken
means to consciously experience the sound-sleep State of God.
When you awake you find that the Great Dream containing all

the varied illusory aspects of dreaming, has vanished for ever.
Heaven and hell as well as all the planes vanish within your Self,
to remain as nothing. In this Awakened State, there is no scope
for anything besides you - the Self, the Existence eternal and
infinite.

This is the only Experience worth experiencing and aspiring after.
To gain this Experience you have to become as dust at the feet of
the Perfect Master - which amounts to becoming as nothing. And,
when you become absolutely nothing, you become Everything
."

http://www.ambppct.org/meherbaba/BooksByMeherBaba.php


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163094 - 03/22/11 04:19 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"You can only get to a certain point before you need me, without me thou efforts are in vain."

I don't trust anyone more than myself


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: ahchela]
    #14163122 - 03/22/11 04:38 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Do you think that as a rule, others cannot be trusted? atleast as equally as yourself?


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163129 - 03/22/11 04:46 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
"In the beginning the mind grumbles, Why should I obey someone? But Hafiz consoles the mind by saying, On Mind! This bondage to the
Master alone can give eternal Freedom. The chosen ones of the Perfect Master obey Him implicitly. He who becomes the perfect 'slave' becomes a Perfect Master."





Quote:

soldatheero said:
Do you think that as a rule, others cannot be trusted? atleast as equally as yourself?





It makes more sense to me to trust intuition over the word of another. I've had gurus but once I questioned the need for them, I realized that I no longer needed them

I do trust people to a certain extent, but people lie. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I've never been offered evidence of a gurus divinity or appointment.

In my experience, having an authority figure only hinders my growth. It is comforting in trying to leave the body, to think that an oversear is watching and indeed someone who can leave the body can meet you and watch over you. That doesn't mean they are ordained in any way


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

Edited by ahchela (03/22/11 04:48 AM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163247 - 03/22/11 06:05 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Really? The Buddha, Jesus, Muhammud, Shankara, Rumi, Hazif, etc. You do not believe they found truth?

No more than anyone else can discover in their own lives. All these people were taught by others and then built on their own experiences.  Same as anyone else.  It's very easy for people to flock to frauds too and proclaim them as saints and gurus.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163256 - 03/22/11 06:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'v many of their words such as those of Jesus and I consider them to be incredibly brilliant, inspiring and beautiful and I understand that without any force he conquered more men then any general ever could in the history of men, delivering great ideals and values to mankind.

Now you're just making things up that sound good to you. Jesus if he existed and what he said he actually said did not conquer anyone and a great case can be made that the vast majority of people that have been followers of him used his words for their personal gain and the physical conquering of other humans.  History is full of examples of this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163265 - 03/22/11 06:14 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Travelling inner planes is one thing but becoming enligtened is another. The spiritual path becomes more difficult as you progress on it. According to Meher there is an infinite abyss between the 6th plane and the final plane the 7th where one becomes one with God. It is primarily at the 6th plane where one needs God to become one with God. Jesus was one with God and that is why he is the path the truth and the light. These are my beliefs anyway.

Right these are just your personal beliefs. There is no real evidence that they are true and so are subjective. How can one who is not enlightened (you) actually know what enlightenment is or who actually has it?  You are taking someones word for it for your own reasons and any of us can be wrong about what we believe to be truth. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spiritual "Masters" and "gurus" [Re: soldatheero]
    #14163277 - 03/22/11 06:19 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"In the beginning the mind grumbles, Why should I obey someone? But Hafiz consoles the mind by saying, On Mind! This bondage to the
Master alone can give eternal Freedom. The chosen ones of the Perfect Master obey Him implicitly. He who becomes the perfect 'slave' becomes a Perfect Master."


It's very easy to see how easily this can be used to control people. Take a look at Christianity.  How many people drank poison kool-aid because they became perfect slaves to the perfect master. They were also convinced that they had found a true master. And that master insisted that they not resist him. There are plenty of lesser and more benign examples where people just lose their time and or money.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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