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InvisibleFoolOnTheHill
Mushroom Connoisseur


Registered: 02/20/11
Posts: 158
Loc: Sunshine State
A question about colonization!
    #14157562 - 03/21/11 01:42 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Hey guys, just wondering the average time for cakes to start colonizing in jars. Mine are at about room temp (73F-79F) and in complete darkness. It's been about 3 days and no mycelium :frown:

Am I just paranoid, or am I failing?


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DISCLAIMER: Anything posted by FoolOnTheHill is a complete work of fiction. All pictures, experiences and text are conjured elsewhere, as I am a mere messenger

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OfflinePrimal Call
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Registered: 09/05/10
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Re: A question about colonization! [Re: FoolOnTheHill]
    #14157572 - 03/21/11 01:46 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

MS inoculations can take up to 2 weeks just to germinate. patience is your friend. do more reading while you wait.

also, keeping things in the dark is old, bad info. it is beneficial to establish a circadian rhythm as early as possible.

on your temps, they are fine, and some would say a little too high. I aim for 74, but usually get around 70, and some people have success as low as 60. the higher temps encourage contamination.


--------------------
New Cultivator's Guide
Time to fruit? Pinning Strategy and Troubleshooting
My Trade Thread (Fungus, Plants, Herbal Medicine)


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InvisibleFoolOnTheHill
Mushroom Connoisseur


Registered: 02/20/11
Posts: 158
Loc: Sunshine State
Re: A question about colonization! [Re: Primal Call]
    #14157612 - 03/21/11 01:56 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ryath said:
MS inoculations can take up to 2 weeks just to germinate. patience is your friend. do more reading while you wait.

also, keeping things in the dark is old, bad info. it is beneficial to establish a circadian rhythm as early as possible.

on your temps, they are fine, and some would say a little too high. I aim for 74, but usually get around 70, and some people have success as low as 60. the higher temps encourage contamination.




Thanks man. Will do. I'm a little rocky on what a circadian rhythm is :3


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DISCLAIMER: Anything posted by FoolOnTheHill is a complete work of fiction. All pictures, experiences and text are conjured elsewhere, as I am a mere messenger

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Offline3n1gm4
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Re: A question about colonization! [Re: FoolOnTheHill]
    #14157873 - 03/21/11 03:39 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

circadian rhythem =12 hours of 6500k(daylight) fluorescent light or indirect sunlight and 12 hours of dark.


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Offlinedarkhawk37
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Re: A question about colonization! [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14158912 - 03/21/11 11:44 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

what you seriously go 12/12 while your jars are colonizing?

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OfflineSilkyB
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Re: A question about colonization! [Re: darkhawk37]
    #14159015 - 03/21/11 12:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Iv done many grows having colonized all my jars each time in complete darkness successfully.
Temps have ranged from low 70s to low 80s depending on the season, and times for colonization to start have taken me anywhere from 1 or 2 days to almost 2 weeks.

Don't worry at all yet, many things can affect the speed of colonization such as strain, genetics, temperature, and the substrate composition of the jar, light might have something to do with it too but in my experience hasn't been important at all until fruiting.

:goodluck:


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Offlinekdmmontana
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Registered: 11/09/10
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Re: A question about colonization! [Re: SilkyB]
    #14159168 - 03/21/11 12:50 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with that previous post:) I was looking long and hard for a factor that controlled colonization since it seemed to go slow for me and I think is the substrate that makes a large difference.

IMO colonization is mostly affected by the quality and preparation of the substrate. My first jars were made with coarse Verm and that sucked hard, because too much moisture was evaporating from the jars, there was too much air pockets and the mycelium didnt like that. At fruiting I had to redunk them 2 times in a row (with fruit bodies on the cakes!) and this was just to make the mushrooms actually grow.

The biggest factor when it comes to colonization is in my opinion as follows.

1. The granule size of the Verm (Ive used almost sand-textured verm and that was the fastest grow Ive had) This factor controls both air circulation and moisture as a coarser grade verm will allow more moisture to escape. Finer grade Verm will keep and hold more water but is trickier to mix IMO.

2. Water content. A high water content is good, altough this is second on my list and the last time I got away with pretty light jars (not too much water) The more water the cakes have, the less they have to be dunked and the faster the fruiting process can begin (or so I believe). Water content and moisture is a big factor throughout the entire process, so water is a middle man in all stages from whar Ive seen.

3. Food. IMOE the mycelium seems to thrive better when the water is locked inside the rice grains (this concerns PF TEK only BTW) or the Verm. The more water that is evaporating(or is free inside the jar), the more condensation and possible loss can occur and that will make controlling water content harder. I use pretty much BRF in my cakes and I havent stumbled on any maximum amount, but more BRF will cause more water to be locked into it and thus lessen both condensation and water loss from air exhange.

4. Heat. Slightly hotter jars will perform better than colder ones, altough this factor controls moisture evaporation so if the cakes have less water content, heat may or may not dry them out increasing dunk times slighlty.

5. The jars. Jars with too big Inoc holes will cause more water to evaporate (so ive found) and increase air exchange, this factor is also dependent on the coarsness of the Verm used and also the top layer. I usually try to use a slightly finer (or the same grade) grade verm for my top layer to lessen water evaporation as Ive found that too coarse Verm can cause the cakes to dry a bit (heat is also a factor here).

**To finalize, this is merely what I think and this is from what ive experienced**, so feel free to Encyklopedia me all you want, as I am actually very interested in finding some resource that can outline all of this in a more scientific manner:)

But this is what I think so far.

Colonization speeds and also the quality of the outcome depends much on the balance and blend of the substrate used. Temperatures are generally a second issue but as people say, it all differs from grow to grow. There are surely some scientific information on this topic and I really want to know If I am onto something here, so please if there is a TEK or some scientific resource explaining it all further please post it. I want to learn more:)

Good luck!

Edited by kdmmontana (03/21/11 12:54 PM)

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InvisibleFoolOnTheHill
Mushroom Connoisseur


Registered: 02/20/11
Posts: 158
Loc: Sunshine State
Re: A question about colonization! [Re: kdmmontana]
    #14159467 - 03/21/11 02:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

awesome! thanks a lot for all the help guys!


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DISCLAIMER: Anything posted by FoolOnTheHill is a complete work of fiction. All pictures, experiences and text are conjured elsewhere, as I am a mere messenger

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OfflinePrimal Call
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Registered: 09/05/10
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Re: A question about colonization! [Re: kdmmontana]
    #14159615 - 03/21/11 02:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You're definitely on track KDM... a lot of good info there. I'm not sure I would put them in the same order of importance, but those are all significant factors. Also, I should mention, I went straight to bulk, so cakes aren't in my experience, but I sure read A LOT! Take this as you may...

As far as the light vs. dark thing, I'm not saying it won't work if you keep them in the dark. It's just that there is no good reason to do so. Instead, you may as well accustom the mycelium to a natural light cycle or a cycle on the timing you intend to use for fruiting. This is, hypothetically, going to make the transition from consolidation to fruiting a more natural progression.

Your points on water content... the technical term I think you are looking for is an anaerobic environment (or lacking/zero O2.) When you say "high" water content... this is a relative term, but each individual is going to have to find exactly what is their perfect water content. "Too much" will lead to pooling, on the bottom or the sides of the jars, which is what creates the anaerobic environment promoting bacterial growth.

Couple the above with "too much" heat, and contam rates are sure to rise. Yes, cube mycelium likes warmer temps, but so do contaminates. Colonization temps I've seen range anywhere from 58-80F with most people recommending 70-75F. This might also be recommended as room temp with indirect, ambient light levels = circadian.

:peace:


--------------------
New Cultivator's Guide
Time to fruit? Pinning Strategy and Troubleshooting
My Trade Thread (Fungus, Plants, Herbal Medicine)


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Offline3n1gm4
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Re: A question about colonization! [Re: Primal Call]
    #14160292 - 03/21/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The myc consumes carbs and uses the energy from them to absorb water, grow bigger, and reproduce.

Different levels of PH and Nitrogen are beneficial at different stages.

http://mycology.wikia.com/wiki/Bulk_substrate

Hpoo and straw have allot of munchies for them and them and the PH and nitrogen level changes changes when is beneficial for them, some times.

https://www.dmt-nexus.com/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=7891


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OfflineTheIndoCloud
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Re: A question about colonization! [Re: 3n1gm4]
    #14160397 - 03/21/11 05:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It can take a week to see fuzz. You dont need to incubate in darkness. room ambient light works fine.


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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: A question about colonization! [Re: Primal Call]
    #14161806 - 03/21/11 10:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I usually use the weight of my jars to guess the water content, its seems to work pretty well. But I agree, this is relative, ive had jars that were light in weight that grew poorly and jars that were light in weight that grew super. I noticed that those that had less free water inside seemed to do better, IMO it was better to aim for a slighlty more dry substrate than to have a too wet one.

I noticed far more condensation with both coarser verm and more water. The way I solved it was to add more BRF (more Verm in the ratio doesnt do the trick as well, at least I dont think so) and at first I was a bit unsure but it worked wonders. ANd of course in addition, I used crushed gypsum (that was burned first of course) and coffee and that speeds up growth (especially the gypsum it seems) a lot.

I think I know now why the first two batches performed as they did, the gypsum wasnt burned, I just used the damn powder from the bag straight. That stuff must have burned in my steam pot for chrissakes:P
No wonder I could smell it, now I know what that was...:grin:

About heat, I think its VERY important not to add DIRECT heat to the jars (as mentioned, people dont use incubators anymore for just those reasons, contamination rates grew and it wasnt a good practice) I noticed that a couple of degrees celsius caused the jars to go pretty warm as theyre insides are hotter than the outside so I think were talking a maximum of say 3-4 degrees celsius increase and not more...

I grew mine inside a metal safe placed in the general area of a radiator and that seemed to do it just fine, as long as I took care to check the jars then and then. It reminds me of the "heat bomb" mentioned to me by BaraKanaten and the small amount of extra heat seems to do wonders after the cakes have come out of the jars, they seem healthier and happier...I cant say it increases speed of growth at all but coupled with both gypsum and coffee I can only say...rocket speed:P

*The following statement is merely a demonstration of my methods and should not be taken as general advice or scientific information*
About air and light; What I did when I noticed stalled growth (mentioned somewhere else) was to just pop the lid (this was of course done late in the colonization process) and screw it on and off a couple of times, forcing air into the jars and then just shut them again and it seems to work just fine. I kept several of my first jars going this way however this practice may be unsafe, so I am not saying its kosher at all.
*The previous statement is merely a demonstration of my methods and should not be taken as general advice or scientific information*

But I do agree fully with the fact that bad air exchange and too much water will cause problems and this also seems to be a general issue for a lot of people. I grew a jar full of bacteria and mold AND it was bacterially contaminated as well, and I must say, I threw that jar out without even opening it! It was also to be mentioned, something I did on purpose...it wasnt a knocked jar.

I grow my jars in darkness, I may try later to give some light ratio to them but as it is now, they grow so fast anyways. But I will remind myself of that one, may be fun to try.

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OfflinePrimal Call
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Registered: 09/05/10
Posts: 2,766
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Re: A question about colonization! [Re: kdmmontana]
    #14162403 - 03/21/11 11:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

if you're having problems with GE during colonization, maybe drill another 3/8th hole somewhere in your lids?


:tripping:


--------------------
New Cultivator's Guide
Time to fruit? Pinning Strategy and Troubleshooting
My Trade Thread (Fungus, Plants, Herbal Medicine)


:peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace::peace:

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