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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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libya is not iraq
    #14158475 - 03/21/11 09:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I just thought I'd like to point this out, for those of you who can't tell the difference.

President Bush made the near-unilateral decision to invade and occupy Iraq right out of the blue. He had approximately 1% support of the international community and had no provocation for the attack. There was no popular resistance underway against Saddam Hussein and no plans to establish an interim government until we realized we had to do that.

Compare and contrast with Libya. A popular uprising against Gaddafi has requested the aid of the United Nations in toppling this autocratic dictator, and after much deliberation, the decision was made to launch strikes against Gaddafi's airforce in order to support the rebels, who have no air defenses.

We are not launching an invasion. We are not mounting an occupation. We are not acting unilaterally. France is doing most of the fighting, and we're just offering temporary support.

I'm a pacifist, but this operation is legitimate. Libya is not Iraq, Obama is not Bush. Get your facts straight, you stupid hippies.


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Enlil said:
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Offlinemikeisapro
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158492 - 03/21/11 09:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Whatever, developed nations are going to continue meddling with semi-developed nations until there is global "democracy" and "freedom" (Two words that have merged into the same thing)

Maybe


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OfflineBeanhead
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: mikeisapro]
    #14158496 - 03/21/11 09:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes the human race in unison would give us a lot of freedom.

It's never going to happen though, well, not in this lifetime :sad:


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: mikeisapro]
    #14158505 - 03/21/11 09:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mikeisapro said:
Whatever, developed nations are going to continue meddling with semi-developed nations until there is global "democracy" and "freedom" (Two words that have merged into the same thing)

Maybe




Gaddafi's government was installed by western powers during Cold War times. We've BEEN meddling with Libya's government, and the strike on Gaddafi's regime represents an effort to make things right by helping the Libyan people take their country back from an old toadie. It's called responsibility.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlinemikeisapro
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158515 - 03/21/11 09:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Lol okay, we've been doing it. Yeah I agree, steps have been taken to create a global and stable NWO for quite a while.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: mikeisapro]
    #14158524 - 03/21/11 09:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Would you prefer the world to remain in the grips of an unstable and constantly shifting balance of power, periodically exploding into global holocausts?

I swear to God, people.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlinenice1
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158560 - 03/21/11 09:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What makes you think a one world control and profit driven system is any better? 
They are still going to commit genocide and torture - they need to reduce the population so indirectly or not they already have plans for it and we have already seen the torture camps like Guantanamo.

IMO its looking far worse because they are locking us down with technology so that there can't be any overthrow of corrupt governments and they have merged with this corporate takeover of the world meaning the only goal for people at the top is going to be profit and control.

That must only lead to totalitarianism, culling of the weak and depletion of all Earths natural resources and destruction of the planet as profit comes over pollution / destruction of eco systems.


Absolute power corrupts absolutely.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: nice1]
    #14158592 - 03/21/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What makes you think an NWO would need genocides? Last time I checked the US and other wealthy countries have massive food surpluses leading to an epidemic of obesity. Imagine if we shared our food with starving people instead of getting fat as houses. That's impossible under the nation-state paradigm because petty warlords control the path of distribution.

That's not what this is about anyway, this is about people talking out of their arses about Libya.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlinenice1
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158602 - 03/21/11 10:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

They are not going to start sharing just because they have control.  The pyramid system is still going to be profit (greed) driven.

They need genocides because they need population reduction to have a one world governance.  The elites have been talking about their designs for that publicly for a long time.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: nice1]
    #14158611 - 03/21/11 10:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What makes you think "population control" = genocide? What if people fucking wisened up and started using birth control? Or a one-child policy, which is certainly a totalitarian measure but better than genocide? Also, how do you link Guantanamo, a strictly US operation which is highly controversial, to omninational cooperation? Furthermore, what is your source for all of this?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleDeadHearts


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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158636 - 03/21/11 10:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This thread is worthy of a....


:facepalm:


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14158654 - 03/21/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I agree.

:huxleyfacepalm:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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Offlineiluvfungi
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158677 - 03/21/11 10:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The problem with the World is some men feel the need to take over the World when they have no right too. What the USA stands for, what the UN stands for is freedom, justice and human rights.

Iran's president is just a fool. He just likes to play games, but someday he will be eliminated. Who is the real enemy, China. An you might think it's a trivial thing, but Japan allies with China in the event of a war. Those are the enemies of the USA, of Freedom.

Considering the entire World is United, if China gets the balls; the rest of the world will destroy them.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: iluvfungi]
    #14158682 - 03/21/11 10:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Japan is a very close ally of the US and has a very long-standing and bloody rivalry with China. Don't think we need to be worried about Japan. If anything, we should be imitating them. Compare their tsunami response to our hurricane response.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineDrMambo
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158689 - 03/21/11 10:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'd say if we could've got a no fly zone established while the Libyan rebels still had appreciable arms, things would've progressed much more organically.

Now we most definitely will have boots on the ground, no matter what the official whitehouse statment.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: DrMambo]
    #14158695 - 03/21/11 10:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's true, the only complaint I have about this is how long we took to get operations started when it was clearly the right thing to do from day one. Still though, I think it probably does more for US reputation on the world stage for us to have waited for a consensus rather than just running in guns blazing.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineBeverageFace
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158702 - 03/21/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i think after iraq some americans have gotten the twisted view that their government is all powerful and is the only one making decisions.

Don't think they understand that the arab leage asked the UN, and then the UN voted on it.

The usa is just going it alone, they arent in charge here.


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OfflineDrMambo
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: BeverageFace]
    #14158711 - 03/21/11 10:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

We shouldn't be in Iraq or Afghanistan, period.


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Invisiblep4kSouL
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158712 - 03/21/11 10:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah this event seems to be different the the iraq war. It seems we Americans were the ones who stimulated the Iraq war. This fly zone in Lydia was a joint agreement among the U.N. Its way different as in there is protesting of peaceful people that is tierd of Dictatorship from one obviious crazy and lieing mother fucker.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: BeverageFace]
    #14158713 - 03/21/11 10:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think a lot of people around were kids when Iraq happened and have an incomplete understanding of what a jaw-dropping injustice that was, but remember the popular protests and are just imitatin' now that another military operation, however better-justified and legitimate, comes along. Protest is hip and cutting-edge, even if it's poorly-conceived and ill-informed.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleDeadHearts


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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158719 - 03/21/11 10:47 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I think a lot of people around were kids when Iraq happened and have an incomplete understanding of what a jaw-dropping injustice that was, but remember the popular protests and are just imitatin' now that another military operation, however better-justified and legitimate, comes along. Protest is hip and cutting-edge, even if it's poorly-conceived and ill-informed.




I was 19. It was bullshit then and we are still there. We have no business getting
involved in anything that can be considered war.


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Offlinenice1
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158727 - 03/21/11 10:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
What makes you think "population control" = genocide? What if people fucking wisened up and started using birth control? Or a one-child policy, which is certainly a totalitarian measure but better than genocide? Also, how do you link Guantanamo, a strictly US operation which is highly controversial, to omninational cooperation? Furthermore, what is your source for all of this?





You sound very angry and I think you already get what I'm saying.  No need to spell it out. 

My source is me.  I watch the news.  I read reports.  I triple check my sources and don't rely on any 1 mainstream media outlet.

If something I've said is wrong and you can prove it then I'll happily alter my view but I don't want to chat with someone that is clearly looking to vent anger anywhere he can because its non productive discussion.  People have varying opinions and some are uninformed.  Deal with it.  No need to stay angry.

Good day sir.


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Invisibledanielx
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158751 - 03/21/11 10:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Would you prefer the world to remain in the grips of an unstable and constantly shifting balance of power, periodically exploding into global holocausts?

I swear to God, people.




and this military operation, is somehow, going to change this? Yeah, gum drops, fairies, and unicorns.

there wlll be unintended consequences, like always.


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InvisibleBatty Koda
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: nice1]
    #14158760 - 03/21/11 11:00 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

They are bombing Libya to get rid of Gaddafi, it has nothing to do with protecting civilians. Libya is the most developed country in AfricA, because of Gaddafi. If you get rid of him then the whole country will descend into bloody tribal warfare like most of Africa. The rebels were trained and backed by western intelligence agencies, they failed to unseat Gaddafi on their own so now the west is directly intervening on their side. These aren't civilians that Gaddafi is killing, the civilians are the ones the west has been bombing. Try storming 10 downing street or the white house with an AK-47 see if you're treated like a "civilian".

They want Gaddafi gone for the same reasons they unseated Mubarak and Ben Ali, he isn't playing ball with the Anglo-American financiers who own the western world.


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Invisibledanielx
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Batty Koda]
    #14158770 - 03/21/11 11:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Batty Koda said:
They want Gaddafi gone for the same reasons they unseated Mubarak and Ben Ali, he isn't playing ball with the Anglo-American financiers who own the western world.




:awesomenod:


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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14158813 - 03/21/11 11:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Would you prefer the world to remain in the grips of an unstable and constantly shifting balance of power, periodically exploding into global holocausts?

I swear to God, people.




people are just dumb

they get a little idea in their head

and it sticks forever

damn hippies, peace isn't compatible human civilization. never has been. it's yet to be proven if any species is capable of peace :tongue2:


--------------------

koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report


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InvisibleDeadHearts


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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: pfxtc]
    #14158821 - 03/21/11 11:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pfxtc said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Would you prefer the world to remain in the grips of an unstable and constantly shifting balance of power, periodically exploding into global holocausts?

I swear to God, people.




people are just dumb

they get a little idea in their head

and it sticks forever

damn hippies, peace isn't compatible human civilization. never has been. it's yet to be proven if any species is capable of peace :tongue2:





Peace is achievable no doubt. I cant stand how people argue the fact that
oh well the world has never had peace so its not possible. Way to flush
the future down the toilet.

better to stay positive than be complete cynical IMO.


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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14158833 - 03/21/11 11:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's being realistic.

Of course I'm for peace, but like I said it just aint gon be happenin.

The second a nation declares peace, the second another country comes in with the Iron Fist.

It's a fact of our existence, it's as needed as oxygen :shrug:


--------------------

koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report


Edited by pfxtc (03/21/11 11:24 AM)


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InvisibleDeadHearts


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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: pfxtc]
    #14158866 - 03/21/11 11:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

pfxtc said:

It's a fact of our existence, it's as needed as oxygen :shrug:




:lol:


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OfflineBeverageFace
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14158869 - 03/21/11 11:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DeadHearts said:
Quote:

pfxtc said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Would you prefer the world to remain in the grips of an unstable and constantly shifting balance of power, periodically exploding into global holocausts?

I swear to God, people.




people are just dumb

they get a little idea in their head

and it sticks forever

damn hippies, peace isn't compatible human civilization. never has been. it's yet to be proven if any species is capable of peace :tongue2:





Peace is achievable no doubt. I cant stand how people argue the fact that
oh well the world has never had peace so its not possible. Way to flush
the future down the toilet.

better to stay positive than be complete cynical IMO.




peace isnt possible because peace isnt real. peace isnt something concrete, what is peace to you, isnt to someone else.

how do you not see this?


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14158873 - 03/21/11 11:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not angry, I just have a major pet peeve about people expressing poorly-informed political opinions, and also about conspiracy theories. You seem better-informed than I had you pegged for, so I apologize if I came across as angry.

World peace is definitely possible, but it is not here yet and we have to pick our battles... I think we did well this time around.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleDeadHearts


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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: BeverageFace]
    #14158890 - 03/21/11 11:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BeverageFace said:
Quote:

DeadHearts said:
Quote:

pfxtc said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Would you prefer the world to remain in the grips of an unstable and constantly shifting balance of power, periodically exploding into global holocausts?

I swear to God, people.




people are just dumb

they get a little idea in their head

and it sticks forever

damn hippies, peace isn't compatible human civilization. never has been. it's yet to be proven if any species is capable of peace :tongue2:





Peace is achievable no doubt. I cant stand how people argue the fact that
oh well the world has never had peace so its not possible. Way to flush
the future down the toilet.

better to stay positive than be complete cynical IMO.




peace to you, isnt to someone else.

how do you not see this?




I can jive with what you said. But come on. There should be no need for war.
As I see it as long as we have fake ass religion's in this world then
there will be just that.

Sure people will not always agree and there will be fights between people but
there is no reason we should still be at a point to where we feel war is necessary.

For me. Peace on earth is no war on earth. You cant stop sick demented people
from being born and killing others and such for whatever reason they decide to do
thos things. But to put so many resources and lives at stake, I just do not get it
anymore.


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OfflineBeverageFace
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: DeadHearts]
    #14158950 - 03/21/11 11:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

so if that is your view of peace, how would you recommend dealing with a rogue nation that is threatening the peace of others? (not say this is libya, hypothetically)


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InvisibleDeadHearts


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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: BeverageFace]
    #14158953 - 03/21/11 11:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BeverageFace said:
so if that is your view of peace, how would you recommend dealing with a rogue nation that is threatening the peace of others? (not say this is libya, hypothetically)





Well people have to defend themselves sure.

Ill add more when I return from work...


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Beanhead]
    #14158959 - 03/21/11 12:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Beanhead said:
Yes the human race in unison would give us a lot of freedom.

It's never going to happen though, well, not in this lifetime :sad:



Good.  Because the human race in unison is a horror beyond measure.  Welcome to the Borg.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14160249 - 03/21/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:

President Bush made the near-unilateral decision to invade and occupy Iraq right out of the blue. He had approximately 1% support of the international community and had no provocation for the attack.




yeah... what ever you say

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_1441
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1373
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_and_the_Iraq_War#Invasion


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I'm not angry, I just have a major pet peeve about people expressing poorly-informed political opinions





lol


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14160328 - 03/21/11 04:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Nice doublespeak there Pris. The UN never approved of the use of force against Iraq, and Bush and his crew lied about Iraqi non-compliance with weapon inspectors to justify the invasion. Most of the world and most clearheaded Americans knew he was lying. The UK didn't care and represented the only significant international support we received for that war.

I feel like we've had this conversation before, and like you implied that sporadic military action against Iraq throughout the Clinton administration implied the inevitability of a full-scale invasion and occupation. Even if that's true, I still hold Bush and his crew accountable for the incompetency of the occupation and interim government.


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You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14160363 - 03/21/11 05:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Whatever you believe that's fine. Facts are facts though, under US law this military action is illegal without the approval of Congress.


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Rebirtha]
    #14160420 - 03/21/11 05:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Also this isn't as simple as Evil leader verse all citizens. There are a very large group of loyalists who support Qhadafi.. Once this goes into an all out civil war, that is where the foreign entanglement problem comes in. You don't have to look far from Libya to see the past history of neighboring countries who have gone into civil trying to overthrow their government. Choosing sides in a civil war is not a good US policy, that is where this critique comes in. I hope you can see the rational point of view from those who have seen the consequences of interventionism except in extreme cases. The people who are against this aren't just stupid hippies as you would say, they might actually know a little history and don't want to repeat an Iran or Sudan situation.  There are many countries we could be entering into right now with violent unruly leaders. Just look at everything going on Bahrain and Yemen.  We could be in about 10 different countries right now if we wanted save the citizens. Congress would never approve this mission, and this is an illegal war act with out congresses approval. History shows, these type of illegal fast acting militarized humanitarian missions often cause long drawn out wars.


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Re: libya is not iraq [Re: Rebirtha]
    #14160465 - 03/21/11 05:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:


I swear to God, people.


Thats the problem. You still believe in fairy tales.


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