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InvisibleJohnnyConverse
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Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 268
Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14205991 - 03/29/11 08:51 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Teachers cops firemen - i can't wait to live in a libertarian Utopia without these "replaceable ciphers"

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InvisibleJohnnyConverse
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Registered: 04/10/09
Posts: 268
Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: JohnnyConverse]
    #14207826 - 03/30/11 04:36 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

you know

call me crazy

but I can sort of see how a price fixing law and a law protecting unions...while seemingly counter-intuitive are both pieces of policy designed to protect the wealth and mobility of the middle class and thus aren't at cross purposes...at all?

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: JohnnyConverse]
    #14207895 - 03/30/11 05:27 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Teachers cops firemen - i can't wait to live in a libertarian Utopia without these "replaceable ciphers"




There is a difference between having them and having them unionized.

Quote:

but I can sort of see how a price fixing law and a law protecting unions...while seemingly counter-intuitive are both pieces of policy designed to protect the wealth and mobility of the middle class and thus aren't at cross purposes...at all?




The problem is that unions protect a very small minority of workers, but they raise labor costs, thus they raise product costs, for every single consumer.  Price fixing laws protect the many from the few... unions protect the few at the expense of the many.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #14208099 - 03/30/11 07:20 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnnyConverse said:
Teachers cops firemen - i can't wait to live in a libertarian Utopia without these "replaceable ciphers"




What does this mean and what justification do you have for it?


Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
Quote:

Don't edit my posts.  This isn't OTD.



Why don'cha come 'ere and stop me.


Quote:

Unions exist to fuck everybody not in a union.  Fact.





I completely agree.  It is a well-known fact that American workers have always been paid excellent wages.  The benevolent corporate overlords have always taken their social responsibilities very seriously.  It is for this reason alone that the middle class exists.  Unions were created as part of a secret communist plot authored by the Democratic party in order to take over the American government.





Do you have anything other than straw man arguments to support your position?  Arguing against yourself and posturing as if your fabricated counterarguments bear some relationship to your opponent is dishonest and a waste of time.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: JohnnyConverse]
    #14208309 - 03/30/11 08:38 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnnyConverse said:
Teachers cops firemen - i can't wait to live in a libertarian Utopia without these "replaceable ciphers"



Out of the population of 300 million people, I would bet that at least 100 million could, or could have been, trained to do those jobs.  Hence the "easily replaceable" tag.  They do not require any exceptional skills.


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14210042 - 03/30/11 03:04 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zappa sez:

Please edit my posts, I do not have valid opinions.  Unions exist to fuck everybody not in a union.  Fact.  In my business union protectionism by the government results in lower wages for non-union workers.  Non-union companies can't even bid on many jobs thus limiting the number of available projects and also eliminating cost competition for any public works which vastly inflate costs to the taxpayer.  Unions are bad for everybody not in a union.




5 day work weeks are bad for everyone. The minimum wage is bad for everyone. Overtime is bad for everyone. Banning child labor is bad for everyone. Equal rights for minority and female workers is bad for everyone. Pensions are bad for everyone. Ensuring that labor is not abused by management is bad for everyone. And most importantly, the protection of a middle class is bad for everyone.

Right? Right.

:whatever:


--------------------
Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

LAGM2024

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14210430 - 03/30/11 04:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Quote:

Zappa sez:

Please edit my posts, I do not have valid opinions.  Unions exist to fuck everybody not in a union.  Fact.  In my business union protectionism by the government results in lower wages for non-union workers.  Non-union companies can't even bid on many jobs thus limiting the number of available projects and also eliminating cost competition for any public works which vastly inflate costs to the taxpayer.  Unions are bad for everybody not in a union.




5 day work weeks are bad for everyone.




It's up to you how long you want to work, no?  As a self employed individual I worked more.
Quote:



The minimum wage is bad for everyone.




Minimum wage leads to more unemployment.  You should be free to work for whatever you can get but you aren't
Quote:



Overtime is bad for everyone.




It certainly is for people who would be willing to do it for straight pay but can't because the employer isn't allowed to pay it and it is definitely bad for anybody who pays for the product, whatever it may be.
Quote:



Banning child labor is bad for everyone.




I don't see how that has anything to do with unions.
Quote:




Equal rights for minority and female workers is bad for everyone.




I don't see how that has anything to do with unions.
Quote:



Pensions are bad for everyone.



I don't see how that has anything to do with unions but overly generous pension benefits that destroy companies are bad. 
Quote:


Ensuring that labor is not abused by management is bad for everyone.




People need to personally nut up if they are being abused.
Quote:



And most importantly, the protection of a middle class is bad for everyone.




Why should any class be protected, number one, and given that unions raise costs for products how are they good for the middle class or any other class NOT IN A UNION?
Quote:



Right? Right.

:whatever:



Right.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14210533 - 03/30/11 04:38 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

And most importantly, the protection of a middle class is bad for everyone.




Why should any class be protected





why shouldnt all classes be protected

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14210572 - 03/30/11 04:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

In as much as all should be protected, fine.  In as much as one particular class should be singled out for protection?  No.  "Equal protection under the law" is what the deal is, not extra protection for mediocrities and failures.  The only "class" deserving special protection is the child class.


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14210589 - 03/30/11 04:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

And most importantly, the protection of a middle class is bad for everyone.




Why should any class be protected





why shouldnt all classes be protected




Boom. Exactly. Unions represent protection for labor. Simple as that. Thanks Pris.

Anyway Zapper, all those things are rights that were fought for and secured by unions. Unions earned rights for ALL American workers that exist to this day. That is why attacking them is detrimental.

You still espouse a "every man for himself" manifesto. "Nut up?" What is this, Zombieland? You think a single mother who needs to earn more money, or isn't being provided benefits can walk up to her boss and say "pay me more money so I can survive and provide for my children punk." Of course not, but when a union of workers says "pay us a living wage or we strike" it empowers the working class. Without unions, management can just laugh and say "ok, you're fired. Have fun raising kids on welfare." This is the kind of abuse I'm talking about. Without a union, and without collective bargaining, poor workers are truly at the whim of management. What are you gonna do? You gotta have money to eat. You gotta have money to stay indoors. Without a collective voice, the workers who are weakest economically speaking are the most vulnerable. Which is, of course, exactly what the Kock brothers and their ilk would love.


--------------------
Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

LAGM2024

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14210719 - 03/30/11 05:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

And most importantly, the protection of a middle class is bad for everyone.




Why should any class be protected





why shouldnt all classes be protected




Boom. Exactly. Unions represent protection for labor. Simple as that. Thanks Pris.




For some reason you still don't get it.  Why should labor be granted special protection?  Are they not grown ups?  EQUAL protection, not extra protection.
Quote:



Anyway Zapper, all those things are rights that were fought for and secured by unions. Unions earned rights for ALL American workers that exist to this day. That is why attacking them is detrimental.




Child labor?  You been drinking a lot of Koolaid.  Unions are anti-freedom, honey.  That's what happens in a Kollektif.  The individual disappears.
Quote:



You still espouse a "every man for himself" manifesto. "Nut up?" What is this, Zombieland? You think a single mother who needs to earn more money, or isn't being provided benefits can walk up to her boss and say "pay me more money so I can survive and provide for my children punk." Of course not, but when a union of workers says "pay us a living wage or we strike" it empowers the working class. Without unions, management can just laugh and say "ok, you're fired. Have fun raising kids on welfare." This is the kind of abuse I'm talking about. Without a union, and without collective bargaining, poor workers are truly at the whim of management. What are you gonna do? You gotta have money to eat. You gotta have money to stay indoors. Without a collective voice, the workers who are weakest economically speaking are the most vulnerable. Which is, of course, exactly what the Kock brothers and their ilk would love.




Well that's a real nice fairy tale you got going there but did you know that over 90% of the private workforce is not unionized?  Yep, it's true.  And they aren't enslaved.  If that baby factory whose Babydaddy ditched her with no child support wasn't a worthless idiot she would have a marketable commodity, i.e. her labor, that would be worth something.  Then again, that doesn't come close to describing what has gone on with public sector unions, who fuck the taxpayer at every turn.  $100,000 a year cops and teachers?  I don't fucking think so.  Union teachers and cops drawing that pay in rubber rooms?  I don't think so.

The Koch Brothers are remarkably charitable.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: Gastronomicus] * 1
    #14210809 - 03/30/11 05:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

And most importantly, the protection of a middle class is bad for everyone.




Why should any class be protected





why shouldnt all classes be protected




Boom. Exactly. Unions represent protection for labor. Simple as that. Thanks Pris.





meaning they fuck the management which is middle class, they fuck
ownership which would be the upper class and they fuck most of the lower
class that cant get into the old boys club we call unions

so who shall protect the rest of us from the unions

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: Gastronomicus] * 1
    #14212875 - 03/31/11 12:45 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> Boom. Exactly. Unions represent protection for labor. Simple as that. Thanks Pris.

Unions protect a very tiny segment of labor while fucking over every other person, including non-union labor.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: Gastronomicus] * 1
    #14212927 - 03/31/11 01:01 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Quote:

Zappa sez:

Please edit my posts, I do not have valid opinions.  Unions exist to fuck everybody not in a union.  Fact.  In my business union protectionism by the government results in lower wages for non-union workers.  Non-union companies can't even bid on many jobs thus limiting the number of available projects and also eliminating cost competition for any public works which vastly inflate costs to the taxpayer.  Unions are bad for everybody not in a union.




5 day work weeks are bad for everyone. The minimum wage is bad for everyone. Overtime is bad for everyone. Banning child labor is bad for everyone. Equal rights for minority and female workers is bad for everyone. Pensions are bad for everyone. Ensuring that labor is not abused by management is bad for everyone. And most importantly, the protection of a middle class is bad for everyone.

Right? Right.

:whatever:




5 day workweeks were bad for me.  Going to school you want to be able to work on weekends- but the union says NO, so I don't get paid.

The union also demanded I get overtime after five hours, so guess what?  I couldn't get over five hours of work, making me earn less.

Every job I ever held as a child was illegal under the law, and none were abusive.  Kids can be jailed and are forced to go to school for long hours.  What right do those people have to say I can be jailed and forced to spend long hours at school but can't when I feel like it doing what I want?  (can't mow lawns, but no law against your parents making you do so with far less safety equipment).

Pensions were bad for me.  I wasn't going to be retiring with the company, why should I have to pay into a pension I didn't want nor would I recieve?  Let the people who were going to work an unskilled job their whole life pay their own pension.

I wasn't middle class, I was poor, and I was the one who got screwed over for the benefit of the middle class workers.  Why should they get more than me for the same work?  Cuz the union says so...

Your appeals to incredulity are more true than you realize if you'd open your eyes.

The union did nothing for me except take my money (convieniantly the part timers paid half the dues of the full timers despite working about a quarter of the hours and making much less than the full timers even computed hourly.  We were the ones who funded the union: the full timers didn't have to pay as much with us around.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: johnm214]
    #14213323 - 03/31/11 04:22 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> The union did nothing for me except take my money

See, the problem was that you didn't give your life and soul to the union.  You were trying to get an education and better yourself.  The union can't have that.  Had you dropped out of college, and dedicated your life to the union, after ten to twenty years you would have gotten enough seniority that union membership would have started to pay off nicely for you.

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InvisibleJohnnyConverse
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14213478 - 03/31/11 06:06 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

JohnnyConverse said:
Teachers cops firemen - i can't wait to live in a libertarian Utopia without these "replaceable ciphers"



Out of the population of 300 million people, I would bet that at least 100 million could, or could have been, trained to do those jobs.  Hence the "easily replaceable" tag.  They do not require any exceptional skills.




serious question: what were you like BEFORE psychedelics?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: JohnnyConverse]
    #14213877 - 03/31/11 09:07 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnnyConverse said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

JohnnyConverse said:
Teachers cops firemen - i can't wait to live in a libertarian Utopia without these "replaceable ciphers"



Out of the population of 300 million people, I would bet that at least 100 million could, or could have been, trained to do those jobs.  Hence the "easily replaceable" tag.  They do not require any exceptional skills.




serious question: what were you like BEFORE psychedelics?



Very young


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Offlinejimbotron
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14236113 - 04/04/11 01:21 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

When all else fails, act like the Koch brothers have never spent a single red cent on any political action whatsoever. In their entire lives. And never will.

Reality be damned.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: jimbotron]
    #14236183 - 04/04/11 01:38 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

jimbotron said:
When all else fails, act like the Koch brothers have never spent a single red cent on any political action whatsoever. In their entire lives. And never will.

Reality be damned.



What the fuck are you babbling about now?


--------------------

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: When all else fails, "Blame the Koch Brothers®" [Re: jimbotron]
    #14236213 - 04/04/11 01:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

that whole things seems to be centered around JoAnne Kloppenburg, the wis
supreme court justice nominee and the claim that she jailed 80yo farmer Wayne
Hensler which does appear to be true, she jailed him for 5 days right after
he was released from the hospital and confiscated the money from his bank
account for the fines he was given. so if you wanna keep reading the
made up news then feel free to... at elast I get the full detail instead of
what some jackass with a blog tells me

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