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OfflineKickleM
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memory function in dreams
    #14136104 - 03/17/11 10:40 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

What gives? If a story like what happens in my dreams were unfolding in my daily life, it would take a lot of effort NOT to remember the events. But that isn't the case for dreams at all. It can easily slip through memory as though it never existed. Any bright ideas as to what's going on?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offlinenumonkei
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: Kickle]
    #14136161 - 03/17/11 10:55 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well, the capacity to remember your dreams can be honed significantly. By keeping a dream journal and recalling details immediately upon awakening it's possible to become able to remember much more dream content.

Like Kegels for your subconscious. Though if there was no contrast between our concrete memory of events in 'reality' versus our dreams we'd probably a tad crazy, no? Also, I have my doubts as too as to how much effort it takes to NOT remember events that happened in our lives. Think about it, how many years have you been alive? Now if you play every memory in your memory, including up to trivial childhood details brought back by scent hallucination, how much of those years can you fully recall?



~Monk

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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: Kickle]
    #14136631 - 03/17/11 12:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Naturally occurring anandamide...??:confused:

Quote:

Findings from the Neurosciences Institute in San Diego show that cannabinoids are capable of blocking new memory formation in animal brain tissue. If anandamide receptors trigger a form of forgetfulness, this may be part of the brain’s system of filtering out unimportant or unpleasant memories—a vital function, without which we would all be overwhelmed by irrelevant and unprovoked memories at every turn.
http://addiction-dirkh.blogspot.com/2008/01/anandamide-brains-own-marijuana.html



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InvisiblePoid
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: Kickle]
    #14136988 - 03/17/11 02:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
What gives? If a story like what happens in my dreams were unfolding in my daily life, it would take a lot of effort NOT to remember the events. But that isn't the case for dreams at all. It can easily slip through memory as though it never existed. Any bright ideas as to what's going on?


If dreams are an expression of the unconscious mind, then perhaps it's hard to remember them while awake because the memories of them exist in the unconscious; the unconscious mind contains a lot of memories, and it's not always very easy to access them.

:2cents:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (03/17/11 03:22 PM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: numonkei]
    #14137301 - 03/17/11 03:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

numonkei said:
Well, the capacity to remember your dreams can be honed significantly. By keeping a dream journal and recalling details immediately upon awakening it's possible to become able to remember much more dream content.

Like Kegels for your subconscious. Though if there was no contrast between our concrete memory of events in 'reality' versus our dreams we'd probably a tad crazy, no? Also, I have my doubts as too as to how much effort it takes to NOT remember events that happened in our lives. Think about it, how many years have you been alive? Now if you play every memory in your memory, including up to trivial childhood details brought back by scent hallucination, how much of those years can you fully recall?



~Monk





Yeah it can be honed, and perhaps that's what happens with waking life where the stakes are high. We've honed our ability over the years to be able to pay attention to important details. If it isn't an important detail, it falls into the ether just like dreams. I mean, what did you eat for lunch yesterday? Probably can recall it, but it may be hazy. And it may be the process of adding importance to dreams artificially that allows for recall to increase. When you think there is something important there and make efforts to get at it, the brain does it's thing and starts storing the information in memory for later analysis and usage.

I mean quite naturally, there are some dreams that I think stand out and are remembered. The ones that just pop out above the rest and stick with you. Perhaps because of emotional disturbance or perhaps because of vividness. There are dream memories that last just like waking memories.

You may be onto something :thumbup:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #14137322 - 03/17/11 03:23 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
If dreams are an expression of the unconscious mind, then perhaps it's hard to remember them while awake because they exist in the unconscious; the unconscious mind contains a lot of memories, and it's not always very easy to access them.

:2cents:




Yeah that's where my thoughts first went too. There and the possibility of something neurochemical.


Quote:

FishOilTheKid said:
Naturally occurring anandamide...??:confused:

Quote:

Findings from the Neurosciences Institute in San Diego show that cannabinoids are capable of blocking new memory formation in animal brain tissue. If anandamide receptors trigger a form of forgetfulness, this may be part of the brain’s system of filtering out unimportant or unpleasant memories—a vital function, without which we would all be overwhelmed by irrelevant and unprovoked memories at every turn.
http://addiction-dirkh.blogspot.com/2008/01/anandamide-brains-own-marijuana.html







Yah, that's the second place I thought to look. I'm sure at some point I learned all the inhibiting chemicals that come into play during sleep but the specifics are lost on me now. I was hoping maybe RGV or a current psych major/grad student would be more current on the physiology of sleep.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: Kickle]
    #14137520 - 03/17/11 04:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

If you remembered all your dreams, you would almost have the memories of an entire other life where logic doesn't really apply. That could get very confusing, and very disadvantageous for survival ability, so the brain evolved a mechanism by which to block the memories of dreams.

tl;dr: Brain stops us from remembering dreams so we don't fuck up our picture of reality.

Edited by NetDiver (03/17/11 04:24 PM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: NetDiver]
    #14137709 - 03/17/11 04:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Natural follow up to that is: why do we dream at all?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: Kickle]
    #14137786 - 03/17/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Dream - Wikipedia
Quote:

Dreams for testing and selecting mental schemas

Coutts hypothesizes dreams modify and test mental schemas during sleep during a process he calls emotional selection, and that only schema modifications that appear emotionally adaptive during dream tests are selected for retention, while those that appear maladaptive are abandoned or further modified and tested. Alfred Adler suggested that dreams are often emotional preparations for solving problems, intoxicating an individual away from common sense toward private logic. The residual dream feelings may either reinforce or inhibit contemplated action.


Evolutionary psychology theories of dreams

Evolutionary psychologists believe dreams serve some adaptive function for survival. Deirdre Barrett describes dreaming as simply "thinking in different biochemical state" and believes people continue to work on all the same problems—personal and objective—in that state. Her research finds that anything—math, musical composition, business dilemmas—may get solved during dreaming, but the two areas especially likely to help are 1) anything where vivid visualization contributes to the solution, whether in artistic design or invention of 3-D technological devices and 2) problem where the solution lies in "thinking outside the box"—i.e. the person is stuck because conventional wisdom on how to approach the problem is wrong. In a related theory, which Mark Blechner terms "Oneiric Darwinism," dreams are seen as creating new ideas through the generation of random thought mutations. Some of these may be rejected by the mind as useless, while others may be seen as valuable and retained. Finnish psychologist Antti Revonsuo posits that dreams have evolved for "threat simulation" exclusively.


Psychosomatic theory

Dreams are a product of "dissociated imagination," which is dissociated from the conscious self and draws material from sensory memory for simulation, with sensory feedback resulting in hallucination. By simulating the sensory signals to drive the autonomous nerves, dreams can affect mind-body interaction. In the brain and spine, the autonomous "repair nerves," which can expand the blood vessels, connect with compression and pain nerves. Repair nerves are grouped into many chains called meridians in Chinese medicine. When a repair nerve is prodded by compression or pain to send out its repair signal, a chain reaction spreads out to set other repair nerves in the same meridian into action. While dreaming, the body also employs the meridians to repair the body and help it grow and develop by simulating very intensive movement-compression signals to expand the blood vessels when the level of growth enzymes increase.


Other hypotheses on dreaming

There are many other hypotheses about the function of dreams, including:
  • Dreams allow the repressed parts of the mind to be satisfied through fantasy while keeping the conscious mind from thoughts that would suddenly cause one to awaken from shock.
  • Freud suggested that bad dreams let the brain learn to gain control over emotions resulting from distressing experiences.
  • Jung suggested that dreams may compensate for one-sided attitudes held in waking consciousness.
  • Ferenczi proposed that the dream, when told, may communicate something that is not being said outright.
  • Dreams regulate mood.
  • Hartmann says dreams may function like psychotherapy, by "making connections in a safe place" and allowing the dreamer to integrate thoughts that may be dissociated during waking life.
  • More recent research by psychologist Joe Griffin, following a twelve-year review of data from all major sleep laboratories, led to the formulation of the expectation fulfilment theory of dreaming, which suggests that dreaming metaphorically completes patterns of emotional expectation in the autonomic nervous system and lowers stress levels in mammals.





--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: Poid]
    #14143231 - 03/18/11 01:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

dream sequences do not have the sequential gestalt nature of waking life, where the changes around you are relatively gradual, and the setting becomes part of the glue that keeps a series of events linked (i.e. recallable in memory).

in dreams, persisting layers of recollections blend chimerically, and then shift to other chimeric related recollections without necessarily establishing any unifying gestalt to link the sequence or fragments together (in the same way that at your waking body position in a room can become a unifying gestalt link for a sequence that occurred there).

without linkage, the fragments remain fragmented.
the dream of layered fragments is re-dreamable or re-callable in a dreamstate, since the layering can regenerate the chimeric similarities between fragments that are normally not noticable.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14143258 - 03/18/11 01:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:strokebeard:
Good points about concrete links.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: Kickle]
    #14143390 - 03/18/11 02:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

And it may be the process of adding importance to dreams artificially that allows for recall to increase.

Yes.  If you really want to increase your dream recall try this. Withdraw from the world amap. Talk  to yourself throughout the day about going to bed and dreaming.  Then throughout your day several times at least stop everything and look carefully at everything until it takes on a dream like quality and ask yourself as seriously as possible "am I dreaming". Try this for a month and see for yourself the difference.  Dreaming is one of the few things in life that I'm half assed good at.  All you have to do is want it more than something else.  I live to go to bed each night. That's where the real action is for me.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: Icelander]
    #14143589 - 03/18/11 02:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

you are creating a unifying gestalt context in your spaced out body for later use in dream recall.
the horse is still before the cart.

additional importance is not emerging from the dream, but resonance is being laid down prior to the dreaming by spacing out in different parts of the house or garden as if in a dream.


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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14152318 - 03/20/11 04:13 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Could it be that dreams are produced from their own sector of the brain? That sector would draw information from your memories and reflect them in a way more suitable to the human mind, projecting emotions almost metaphorically, without the constraints of the physical realities?

Total guess.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14152628 - 03/20/11 07:36 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you are creating a unifying gestalt context in your spaced out body for later use in dream recall.
the horse is still before the cart.

additional importance is not emerging from the dream, but resonance is being laid down prior to the dreaming by spacing out in different parts of the house or garden as if in a dream.





I quit using this technique long ago.  I don't think about dreaming usually until I'm falling asleep and it's been so for many years.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: Kickle]
    #14152672 - 03/20/11 07:58 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The reason you cannot remember dreams as easily is because when you dream you are not at FULL consciousness.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14152910 - 03/20/11 09:31 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
Could it be that dreams are produced from their own sector of the brain? That sector would draw information from your memories and reflect them in a way more suitable to the human mind, projecting emotions almost metaphorically, without the constraints of the physical realities?

Total guess.



you can think this way metaphorically
but
nothing being used in this thinking is defined/established organically.

I venture there is no dream center as such; the whole brain however can function as a unit in a dream state.
Deam state(s), a range of drugged states, and emotional states can be evaluated in parallel.

There are triggers or modulators of state, such as drugs and hormones, as well as organic modalities (eg. activity in the reticular system to block somato-sensory input)

starting with information.
you need to know what is stored, how it is stored and how it is recalled, and what the physics/neurology of recall is as well as the physics/neurology of experience. it is not binary files and it is not a movie or a book.

I venture there is no distinction between the energy profile of experience and recall (resonant experience augmentation) and that the relationship between experience (sensation), recall and memory fixation (resonance based linkage of active cell groupings) is not that complex, and it is affected by state (signal resonance duration extension - we know that state involves the prolongation of signal train fadeout which in psychedelia is trails) and it is a process that uses the entire brain organ.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14152916 - 03/20/11 09:33 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Trippy:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: Icelander]
    #14156731 - 03/20/11 10:23 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you can think this way metaphorically
but
nothing being used in this thinking is defined/established organically.

I venture there is no dream center as such; the whole brain however can function as a unit in a dream state.
Deam state(s), a range of drugged states, and emotional states can be evaluated in parallel.

There are triggers or modulators of state, such as drugs and hormones, as well as organic modalities (eg. activity in the reticular system to block somato-sensory input)

starting with information.
you need to know what is stored, how it is stored and how it is recalled, and what the physics/neurology of recall is as well as the physics/neurology of experience. it is not binary files and it is not a movie or a book.

I venture there is no distinction between the energy profile of experience and recall (resonant experience augmentation) and that the relationship between experience (sensation), recall and memory fixation (resonance based linkage of active cell groupings) is not that complex, and it is affected by state (signal resonance duration extension - we know that state involves the prolongation of signal train fadeout which in psychedelia is trails) and it is a process that uses the entire brain organ.




I realize functions carried out by the brain are not localized to one particular area but are done using predictable combinations of various sectors.

My question is this, does the dream state also use a specific combination of various sectors every time, does it utilize the sectors randomly, or is it a selective process based on the using sectors with the highest levels of resonant experience augmentation? Surely it could not use every sector simultaneously and equally(that would require too much energy for sleep to be effective), so how does it specify which particular ones it uses?

Also, how do you explain dreams that vividly project scenarios that the mind has never experienced? Last night I had an extremely vivid dream where I ended up jumping through the penthouse window of a massive skyscraper in the middle of a sea, where it seemed like a flawless rendition of what it would actually be like to experience this(there where absolutely no gaps in the imaging throughout the dream, I even saw the roof of the lower level of the building with extreme detail, and the fall was in real time). I remember the images very, very well because they seemed very, very real. I even remember the reasons for me jumping, I just wanted to see if I would live. Also, something that has never happened to me in a falling like dream before happened, I hit the water. I don't remember what happened after I hit the water (think I just started another dream) but I specifically remember hitting the water. I felt the impact(in the dream), but no pain.

It was an amazing dream. Normally falling dreams are experienced with fear, without control, and I don't experience such detail and vividness. This one was the opposite, the jump was facilitated by my own accord, I experienced no fear, and the image quality was like actually doing this. It felt sooo real. Sorry, I got a little off topic :crazy:

So how does the brain create scenarios like these with such accuracy?
It clearly uses little resonant experience augmentation as I have never seen or experienced anything like this. In the words of Kickle, what gives?

Edited by mushiepussy (03/20/11 10:31 PM)

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: memory function in dreams [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14156772 - 03/20/11 10:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

IMO dreams are unimportant and is why they are often forgotten.  IMO you never lose the memory of an event or experience, but you can lose the ability to recall it.


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