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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: 1tokeovrtheline]
    #14157825 - 03/21/11 03:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

and above all stressed the importance to not become too attached to opinions of these types of things


.

This is true for how the Buddha dealt with the question of "is there a self" but I don't buy he said this about rebirth. It undermines the entire philosophy to not accept rebirth.

Quote:

but he expressed doubt that there is any type of reincarnation




He really didn't, quite the opposite he said had first had experience of 1000s of past lives. He also gave analogies and teachings to help one understand how rebirth is possible. Think of the burning flame analogy.

""Through many a birth wandered I, seeking the builder of this house. Sorrow full indeed is birth again and again."

If there was no rebirth there would be no need to escape samsara as you would escape it naturally after your short life in this body. It undermines the entire religion.

When you truly grasp the heart sutra the reality of rebirth is completely clear and you can "see" it's truth for yourself.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: soldatheero]
    #14157830 - 03/21/11 03:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"Besides the very interesting Jataka stories, which deal with his previous lives and which are of ethical importance, the Majjhima Nikaya and the Anguttara Nikaya make incidental references to some of the past lives of the Buddha.

In the Ghatikara Sutta the Buddha relates to the Venerable Ananda that he was born as Jotipala, in the time of the Buddha Kassapa, his immediate predecessor. The Anathapindikovada Sutta describes a nocturnal visit of Anathapindika to the Buddha, immediately after his rebirth as a Deva. In the Anguttara Nikaya,' the Buddha alludes to a past birth as Pacetana the wheelwright. In the samyutta Nikaya the Buddha cites the names of some Buddha's who preceded him. An unusual direct reference to departed ones appears in the Parinibbana Sutta. The Venerable Ananda desired to know from the Buddha the future state of several persons who had died in a particular village. The Buddha patiently described their destinies. Such instances could easily be multiplied from the Tipitaka to show that the Buddha did expound the doctrine of rebirth as a verifiable truth." Following the Buddha's instructions, his disciples also developed this retro-cognitive knowledge and were able to read a limited, though vast, number of their past lives."
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-buddha.htm


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: ApJunkie]
    #14157914 - 03/21/11 04:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:


The interview says "this is a classic example of Science vs faith". How do they figure? Why do they think science assumes rebirth is impossible? What so-called fact disproves rebirth?





An even better question would be concerning your premise that for science vs faith to be an accurate description that science must assume false or disprove the disputed fact.  I see no reason why this should be the case and indeed the classic examples of such don't concern matters which science has disproved:  creationism, god's existance, heaven, afterlife, miracles, celestial teapots, et cet

It seems you're arguing against a straw man here: science concerns itself with that which is demonstrable and adopts the null hypothesis at all times, with the burden upon the claimaint to establish a departure from this presumption.  That the claims made are not proven yet are maintained makes this, indeed, antithetical to scientific philosophy and a matter of science vs faith.

Quote:

ApJunkie said:
well assuming that the parents AREN'T attention seeking liars and that the kid is legitimately remembering those things, then this video makes seriously more curious about the afterlife





Why would the parents not being attention seeking liars give any credence to the claims?  As others have said before your post: people are dumb, believe dumb things, and are not prone to think logically.  The parents may be completely genuine and yet still be promoting what is a falsehood.  There is a reason why science prefers blinded experiments, and it is percisely because the confirmation bias of the investigator leads to the introduction of bias: both through a desire to confirm their beliefs and through communication with the subject about information that should not be disclosed (i.e. the "counting horse" classic example of nonverbal cues confounding an otherwise-reliable experiment due to the parties not being blinded).

Most of these types of things of any notoriety may have good-faith claimants.  That the person truely believes Jesus is in their french toast, the aliens abducted them, god spoke to him, or any number of other things does not provide any indicia of reliability as to their conclusions.

This is rudimentary grade-school level science, and one of the things I think is far more valuable for peopel to learn rather than the usual fare in secondary science education (memorizing bullshit rather than learning what science is and how to do it).


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: johnm214]
    #14157988 - 03/21/11 05:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

That the claims made are not proven yet are maintained makes this, indeed, antithetical to scientific philosophy and a matter of science vs faith.






I disagree your conclusion is based on the premise that science proves theories. In science tests are designed to disprove, not prove, theories. Testing a theory simply tests to see if the theory can survive the test. A theory simply retains its viability if it survives a test. One could never, even in principle, devise a test for a theory that would verify it beyond all doubt.

"science concerns itself with that which is demonstrable and adopts the null hypothesis at all times"

As of yet science has in no way disproved this theory so I do not see how it is a "battle between science and faith". Like you said science takes the null hypothesis yet the person saying "science vs faith" seems to come from the viewpoint that current science rules rebirth to be impossible, which it does not. Anyway this is what I thought was meant by "science vs faith".


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: lolwut]
    #14158014 - 03/21/11 05:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lolwut said:
Actually, the Buddha describes reincarnation as a definate thing, and in rationalising it out of existence you are immediately hindering your possible progress on the path. He also says dont believe anything he says unless it works for you.

Google it lol.

Intuition would play a large part though, and many spiritual teachers say that everyone is psychic, just most people don't realise it. Not spiritual teachers as in channelers or people who talk to the dead, but spiritual teachers as in enlightened world teachers who speak for the benefit of everyone. Another thing that most frauds dont talk about is psychic attack - the fact that upon realising you're psychic, you immediately become in tune with all the negative energies that are released by your enemies towards you, and the fact that once this happens its more important to cut yourself off from the ones who drain you, before you try and gain more power - otherwise the people draining you can steal your power and try and use it agaisnt you.

This stuff is actually very important and its not that much to read if you want to protect yourself and your loved ones.

http://ramaquotes.com/html/power.html
http://ramaquotes.com/html/personal_power.html
http://ramaquotes.com/html/gaining_power.html
http://ramaquotes.com/html/abusing_power.html
http://ramaquotes.com/html/psychic_self_defense.html
http://ramaquotes.com/html/places_power.html
http://ramaquotes.com/html/castaneda_tonal_nagual.html

There is a very fine line between abusing power, and using it to defend yourself, which is often why a lot of people dont get much power.





NO MORE BLAH BLAH BLAH!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: soldatheero]
    #14158016 - 03/21/11 05:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

That the claims made are not proven yet are maintained makes this, indeed, antithetical to scientific philosophy and a matter of science vs faith.






I disagree your conclusion is based on the premise that science proves theories. In science tests are designed to disprove, not prove, theories. Testing a theory simply tests to see if the theory can survive the test. A theory simply retains its viability if it survives a test. One could never, even in principle, devise a test for a theory that would verify it beyond all doubt.

"science concerns itself with that which is demonstrable and adopts the null hypothesis at all times"

As of yet science has in no way disproved this theory so I do not see how it is a "battle between science and faith". Like you said science takes the null hypothesis yet the person saying "science vs faith" seems to come from the viewpoint that current science rules rebirth to be impossible, which it does not. Anyway this is what I thought was meant by "science vs faith".





You are going to believe in reincarnation no matter what the outcome of this thread.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: Icelander]
    #14158033 - 03/21/11 05:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

At least he totally failed to grok John's simple and straight-forward post. That's something, I guess. :ohwell:


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14158065 - 03/21/11 06:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You are going to believe in reincarnation no matter what the outcome of this thread.




No one has really analyzed or critiqued the video in depth, nothing has been offered to debunk the video other then the tired old "people are dumb" and "people lie". Pretty weak.

Quote:

At least he totally failed to grok John's simple and straight-forward post. That's something, I guess




The narrator says "what we have is a classic contact of faith vs science. Hard facts against beliefs that cannot be explained"

What hard facts??


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: soldatheero]
    #14158069 - 03/21/11 06:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Hard fact that there are no hard facts and therefore nothing to talk about.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: soldatheero]
    #14158080 - 03/21/11 06:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No one has really analyzed or critiqued the video in depth, nothing has been offered to debunk the video other then the tired old "people are dumb" and "people lie". Pretty weak.

I think most people here have give plausible explanations that go far beyond a statement like. "Why would people lie about this?"

You've proven yourself to be a true believer here.  The only evidence you might except is if god came down and said "I'm going fry your ass if you don't stfu".

I suggest you go on believing if it makes you feel good.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: Grapefruit] * 1
    #14158093 - 03/21/11 06:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This is a case of wearing the debunker out as this SPECIFIC case has been debunked so many times already, but if the TBers keep bringing it up...

Summation: the kid had books on aviation as well as having been to an air museum BEFORE he recited a single factoid. Basically he had a good memory and his parents were impressed.

ALL of the rest is baseless assumption and major conclusion-jumping.

The End!


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: Icelander]
    #14158097 - 03/21/11 06:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The only evidence you might except is if god came down and said "I'm going fry your ass if you don't stfu".





Didn't you already do that? :confused:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: Icelander]
    #14158105 - 03/21/11 06:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I think most people here have give plausible explanations that go far beyond a statement like. "Why would people lie about this?"





Yeah, but you have completely failed to explain how one human could recite a fact that other humans also had access to.


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14158137 - 03/21/11 06:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well it's more then just a couple random facts you can find it books. You have to explain his emotional attachment to the death of the James that died in WW2 and why does he think he was that James? Why the violent nightmares? Or if hes not sincere why is he making it up? I guess you think its all just random?

Some of the facts are also rather detailed such as; where on the plane it was hit and the location of where it landed. However I agree it is true the facts good possibily be explained by books.

Theres always the possibility it is all fake somehow or another I just believe that is not the most likely explaination because I do not come from the preconceived idea that rebirth is impossible.
Quote:

You've proven yourself to be a true believer here.  The only evidence you might except is if god came down and said "I'm going fry your ass if you don't stfu




The video never confirmed for me that rebirth is real I had believed in it long before the video.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: soldatheero]
    #14158171 - 03/21/11 07:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How come so few remember past lives like this? If he can why aren't there tons of even better examples?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (03/21/11 07:15 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: soldatheero]
    #14158191 - 03/21/11 07:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The video never confirmed for me that rebirth is real I had believed in it long before the video.

Right and in all your time this is it. This is the best piece of "evidence" you can come up with. 

IMO that's not very rational basing beliefs on so little.  I'm thinking  death anxiety is more likely at work here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: Icelander]
    #14158205 - 03/21/11 07:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I do not know for certain but I have some ideas. I think the main reason we do not remember past lives is because our new brain prevents us. In a sense our new brain wants to remember it's own experiences. We are in a completely different environment and state of mind so there is nothing to trigger past memory. It's difficult to remember what we were doing a few years ago, what about a 100 years ago? Perhaps it is something t hat occurs after death that makes it near impossible to remember.

Quote:

If he can why aren't there tons of even better examples?




There are many cases, way more then people think, its not like you are going to see it on the news. I have an uncle who claims to remember a past life, he does hates to about it as my family is catholic.

I have a friend is quite a rational thinker and very intellectual, I told him I think rebirth is real and he said he agrees. He gets an irrational overwhelming sense of fear when hes around subways and considers that perhaps it's because of a past life. Rebirth could work  to explain things like this.. child prodigies for instance.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: Icelander]
    #14158217 - 03/21/11 07:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Right and in all your time this is it. This is the best piece of "evidence" you can come up with.




Hm no not even close. The primary reason I believe in eternal life is because I do not believe that consciousness "emerges" from the brain. I believe mind is the cause and matter is the effect not the other way around. Rebirth is an implication of this belief.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: NetDiver]
    #14158260 - 03/21/11 08:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

learningtofly said:
Who says we came from nothing?



Where did we come from?



If I knew that I'd be praised the world over.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: A Solid Case of Rincarnation [Re: soldatheero]
    #14158285 - 03/21/11 08:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I do not know for certain but I have some ideas. I think the main reason we do not remember past lives is because our new brain prevents us. In a sense our new brain wants to remember it's own experiences. We are in a completely different environment and state of mind so there is nothing to trigger past memory. It's difficult to remember what we were doing a few years ago, what about a 100 years ago? Perhaps it is something t hat occurs after death that makes it near impossible to remember.

Seems like your beliefs are based on supposition and guess without real evidence. This is why RAW said "What the thinker thinks, the prover proves."  To hold a firm belief based on primarily  guesswork is, imo, what's wrong with homo sapiens in general and why our world is so fucked up.

No real evidence is needed but instead the desire for something to be true.  Carry on.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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