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1minutehasgoneby
Stranger

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 65
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Tree of knowledge of good and evil
#14145695 - 03/18/11 09:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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The tree where the snake tempted Eve to eat the fruit off of. Why did Jesus not want them to eat off this tree. I noticed that Sri Guru Granth Sahib, I think it's the punjab bible, also believe death and punishment will follow those that are into duality mainly because those people are egotistic and don't believe in god. Any thoughts?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Jesus wasn't around back then. Jesus is the new testament.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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JohnnyZampano
Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 325
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: Icelander]
#14145762 - 03/18/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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He was an asshole, he wanted all the apples for himself to make a godly apple pie. Jesus needs to learn to share.
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1minutehasgoneby
Stranger

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 65
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: Icelander]
#14145779 - 03/18/11 09:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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oh whoops not Jesus, God himself...
Quote:
JohnnyZampano said: He was an asshole, he wanted all the apples for himself to make a godly apple pie. Jesus needs to learn to share.
Wow... that actually makes sense
Edited by 1minutehasgoneby (03/18/11 09:43 PM)
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giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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God wanted to see if he could trust them..
The knowledge of evil may tempt them to commit it since they would know of it.
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended


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I fear, note, MAN wanted to keep his fellow humans away from their *kinetic yin and yang inspiration* that is really just beyond what they understand and have experienced. ...Or have eaten.
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Muufokfok
aka BoxyBrown


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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: JohnnyZampano]
#14148123 - 03/19/11 11:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
JohnnyZampano said: He was an asshole, he wanted all the apples for himself to make a godly apple pie. Jesus needs to learn to share.
-------------------- "I'm guessing the 'ancient lost drug' of india is psychedelic mushrooms. The correlation between sacred cows (in hinduism) and magic mushrooms growing on cow dung is too strong to ignore, if you ask me."
  As the ocean waves, the universe "peoples" ~Alan Watts~
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Quote:
1minutehasgoneby said: The tree where the snake tempted Eve to eat the fruit off of. Why did Jesus not want them to eat off this tree. I noticed that Sri Guru Granth Sahib, I think it's the punjab bible, also believe death and punishment will follow those that are into duality mainly because those people are egotistic and don't believe in god. Any thoughts?
This book is perhaps the best psychological treatment of the myth of Adam and Eve, from a Jungian perspective. Understand that the Jungian psychological perspective uses an analytical model to explain the symbols and what they most likely mean, because the archetypes of the Collective Unconscious are understood to be invariant. That means that aside from slight differences in appearance from culture-to-culture, the symbols carried the same essential meanings even 3000 years ago as they do today.
The Creation of Man myth speaks to the evolution of consciousness from 'the Great Round,' the unconscious, the womb. In the biblical stories, Adam (originally male and female until separated into Adam-Eve) = ego. God = Self. The story about Adam talking to God, in Jungian terms, is the emergence of an 'axis' that connects our center of consciousness (ego) with the Center of the entire psyche (Self). Edinger diagrams this process, called Individuation. Myth, including biblical myth, makes a LOT of psychological sense once they are viewed analytically and apart from imaginal-emotional interpretations.
http://www.amazon.com/Ego-Archetype-Edward-Edinger/dp/087773576X/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300560323&sr=1-1-fkmr0
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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All symbolism can be interpreted within multiple frameworks, bio, psycho, social, cosmo, etc. from singular or plural perspectives.
Why does the Valentinian story echo so true? I Am the Demiurge.
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Robert Hagedorn
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: Middleman]
#14148929 - 03/19/11 03:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Apples grow on apple trees and figs grow on fig trees. But what fruit grows on the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Before we can discuss the tree of knowledge of good and evil we must first know exactly what this tree and its fruit were. Do a search: The First Scandal. Then click twice.
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The Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
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Loc:
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The apple wasn't organic, that's why.
Everyone knows regular apples are sprayed with pesticides.
Tl;dr God's a hippie.
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1minutehasgoneby
Stranger

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 65
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Why is the tree of knowledge of good and evil so bad compared to the tree of life. What could this represent today? I mean Adam and Eve were innocent before they were tempted but when I compare it to modern day society... innocence is the purest of evil and full of ego. Plus the only thing they had was faith in god's word. Could this mean that disobeying god (or man) can lead to your demise? I'm so confused!!! And kind of tripping because I don't know which side I'm on satan or gods (even though I'm agnostic btw) because I dwell in duality but according to the bible and Sri Guru Granth Sahib duality or the tree of knowledge is bad. I mean look at this guys quotes:
“The world is polluted with the filth of egotism, suffering in pain. This filth sticks to them because of their love of duality. This filth of egotism cannot be washed away, even by taking cleansing baths at hundreds of sacred shrines.”
“Hypocrisy is not devotion - speaking words of duality leads only to misery. Those humble beings who are filled with keen understanding and meditative contemplation - even though they intermingle with others, they remain distinct.”
“Everything happens according to the Lord's Will; what can the poor people do? Attached to self-conceit and duality, they have forgotten their Lord and Master.”
-Sri Guru Granth Sahib quotes
Sorry long post but I just want to say that they say ignorance is bliss... could knowledge really be the exact opposite?
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Ancient texts are often mathematical and mystical allegory cloaked in bedtime stories.
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I AM SWIM
doin' thangs



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Quote:
1minutehasgoneby said: Why is the tree of knowledge of good and evil so bad compared to the tree of life.
I would think that eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge would show that good and evil are really the same, so there would be no difference in morality while being compared to the tree of life. Perhaps the 'bad' isn't necessarily imbued with the tree of knowledge, but rather the giving into the temptation and desire of eating such a delicious fruit.
Although, I have never really read The Bible, so I am not sure what the tree of life really is. 
Quote:
What could this represent today? I mean Adam and Eve were innocent before they were tempted but when I compare it to modern day society... innocence is the purest of evil and full of ego.
It could represent anything, but I don't think it's the knowledge that is considered 'bad', but the overall morale of the story. The giving into the temptation/desire.
And innocence is the purest of evil and full of ego?
According to the I Ching, hexagram 25: Wu Wang/Innocence, states that "All good comes when we are innocent."
Quote:
Plus the only thing they had was faith in god's word. Could this mean that disobeying god (or man) can lead to your demise? I'm so confused!!!
I think disobeying yourself, would lead to your demise. But I personally see God as the "Self"; Whatever that is.
Quote:
And kind of tripping because I don't know which side I'm on satan or gods (even though I'm agnostic btw) because I dwell in duality but according to the bible and Sri Guru Granth Sahib duality or the tree of knowledge is bad. I mean look at this guys quotes:
“The world is polluted with the filth of egotism, suffering in pain. This filth sticks to them because of their love of duality. This filth of egotism cannot be washed away, even by taking cleansing baths at hundreds of sacred shrines.”
“Hypocrisy is not devotion - speaking words of duality leads only to misery. Those humble beings who are filled with keen understanding and meditative contemplation - even though they intermingle with others, they remain distinct.”
“Everything happens according to the Lord's Will; what can the poor people do? Attached to self-conceit and duality, they have forgotten their Lord and Master.”
-Sri Guru Granth Sahib quotes
is often assumed to be considered to be a form of duality, but it is also the form of unity. I think your post is focusing more on the dualistic nature of things. There is no side. You cannot have black without white, because if there was only one of the two, then you wouldn't be able to compare and contrast them, thus you wouldn't be able to make sense of the difference. They are inseparable. You can see this everywhere in nature as well.
Quote:
Sorry long post but I just want to say that they say ignorance is bliss... could knowledge really be the exact opposite?
Ignorance may be bliss, but how would you know what bliss is like without knowledge? Whatever you read is all based on your own interpretation, and is subject to mis-interpretations. So you never really know what 'they' are saying.
If ignorance is bliss, and knowledge is the exact opposite, then that would confirm in a sense, that they are one and the same. It's hard to explain. I guess you just gotta do thangs.
r U sUrE Ur NoT oN a GuIlT TriP?
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giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: I AM SWIM]
#14150748 - 03/19/11 09:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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@1minutehasgoneby
Quote:
I don't know which side I'm on satan or gods
If God is the creator, then Satan is a creation.. Now who would be more 'powerful' the creator or the creation?
Edited by giza (03/19/11 09:11 PM)
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1minutehasgoneby
Stranger

Registered: 02/07/11
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: I AM SWIM]
#14150998 - 03/19/11 10:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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@ I AM SWIM: The tree of life was the tree god gave to Adam and Eve to eat for immortality. When they ate from the tree of knowledge they became aware of their nakedness and felt shameful and hid from god. So I think the bible is trying to say that knowledge may kill your innocence... Therefore ignorance is bliss and knowledge is well...
The snake said that it would also turn them into god...
Quote:
According to the I Ching, hexagram 25: Wu Wang/Innocence, states that "All good comes when we are innocent."
That could be interpreted in a few ways also... When you're young and full of bliss that's when you're most happy. Kids feel invincible and therefor reckless. The reason why you see so many young gangster wannabe's is because of this and some people never grow out of it and are full of ego and ignorance. To me innocence is good but it's also the time when Satan can easily take over you because of your innocence.
Quote:
I think disobeying yourself, would lead to your demise. But I personally see God as the "Self"; Whatever that is.
Quote:
If God is the creator, then Satan is a creation.. Now who would be more 'powerful' the creator or the creation?
I agree with the both of you guys but the thing is... Lucifer is the great deceiver... He will try to trick you into doing wrong thinking you're doing right... Buuuut... if you want to look at it at a yin and yang perspective... they are both equal.
Interesting video btw... But yeah I'm still trying to figure this shit out more interpretations welcomed
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giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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If God had split personality and Satan describes his opposite side.. - then I could see them as equal.(Implying that God is the creator and Satan is not.)
But yin and yang are totally different than God and Satan, IMO.
With yin and yang I think that describes with good comes evil and with evil comes good.
IMO, God can do whatever God wants, whether it be good or 'evil'. I think people just 'hope' he's good.
Edited by giza (03/19/11 10:31 PM)
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giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: giza]
#14151170 - 03/19/11 10:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I got some more things to think about on this subject too, since you asked.
Why does God even allow Satan to have power?
Is Satan really on God's side weeding out the 'evil'? - Or is God using Satan for this reason.
Since Satan has dominion in hell then he is a necessary evil, he punishes the sinners. If God sends them there and allows Satan to do what he wills with them.
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Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: giza]
#14151702 - 03/20/11 12:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Seriously guys, if you want to understand Genesis study Gnosticism, Qabalah, and the Tarot. It goes deeper than you can imagine, far beyond black and white.
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R2-D2
horseradish


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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: I AM SWIM]
#14151713 - 03/20/11 12:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I AM SWIM said: I would think that eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge would show that good and evil are really the same, so there would be no difference in morality while being compared to the tree of life. Perhaps the 'bad' isn't necessarily imbued with the tree of knowledge, but rather the giving into the temptation and desire of eating such a delicious fruit.
Interesting, I've always sort of thought the opposite, that good and evil became distinctly separate things after eating the fruit, what with them realizing they're naked and need to be covered, and then hiding from God. I'd never even considered the opposite, food for thought...
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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As far as I see the both trees once were the same. The One Tree. The One Life. The Truth about Life and Existence itself. Its conditionality depends upon the splitting of the Truth from the Life. The splitting is the SinFall. The Separation from G*D. Then Life became finite as it was not living from the Truth.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: Middleman]
#14153484 - 03/20/11 12:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Middle said: All symbolism can be interpreted within multiple frameworks, bio, psycho, social, cosmo, etc. from singular or plural perspectives.
Why does the Valentinian story echo so true? I Am the Demiurge.
Yeah? Well, I am Wisdom and I gave birth to you Demiurge. 
All we can do is interpret using a language that is grown from the Psyche itself, and that language consists in archetypal images. So the analytical thing to do is also the phenomenologist's task - bracket out the invariant symbols, see how they manifest in various cultures, but recognize their essential identity, and go from there. You are not saying anything about a methodology. Gnostic myths are myths for interpreting older myths using the same symbols but attributing different values to them. E.g., the 'shining one' in the Garden becomes a symbol of wisdom, or of gnosis, and is not a 'tempter-devil.' God, who walks "in the cool of the morning" is not Ultimate Reality, but an evil demiurgic abortion which emanated from one of a pair of emanations (Sophia), who attempted to play Creator without consent of her consort, or permission from a Higher Authority. Now, what do each of these personifications say about the human psyche that created this myth?
Supplanting one set of hermeneutics for a Gnostic one doesn't make the latter more revealing about cosmology. It is just an alternate mythic explication of 'why' creation is here. The Valentinian myth is a more complicated infinite regress - another version of "....it's turtles all the way down," and as such, not very helpful IMO, other than to have one throw one's hands up and surrender to the incomprehensibility of Mystery.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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oxalic32


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My teacher told me he has a version of the bible where it doesn't say god when it talks about adam and eve, but gods.
In a movie i watched they had an older version where instead of gods they were just landlords.
Same teacher said there were other trees, such as a tree for immortality.
His theory is the god didn't want them to become greater than him. Maybe they would surpass him or something.
Anyhow he says it will kill them when they eat it. Did they die?
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zzripz
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: oxalic32]
#14638513 - 06/19/11 04:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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To understand the Genesis story you have to understand where THEY got it from. It is really originally about the Garden of the Goddess where the garden, Tree, Fruit, and Experience are all sacred, and NOT a sin like these patriarchal Levite priests chose to make it.
They are in effect trying to denigrate the Goddess. Here it is summarized:
They --via 'God's Word' 'demote' the Goddess to a mortal woman, Eve, and have her birthed from Adam---yet another absurd insult to women and the Goddess because it is unnatural, since when do males give birth...? But this is to claim that patriarchal authority is superior, and women should be subserviant to men. They did this trick in Greek mythology where they have a goddess born from the head of Zeus.
Now the Seroent was sacred to the Goddess and one of its important associations was symbolism of eternal life which renews itself cyclically, because the snake sloughs off skin and has new skin underneath. Serpents were also connected with entheogenic mushrooms, and they guarded the Tree of Enlightenment.
So what does 'He' do---he demonizes it, and BLAMES Eve's 'sin' for bringing death into nature. So see what they have done?? They make out that life and death can BE separate. But tell me, how can you have 'front' without 'back'.
The Tree grows mindaltering entheogenic fruit the eating therof IS Enlightenment, because you experience the Garden of the Goddess ecstatically---it is wonder-full, but the patriarchal myth doesn't want its gullible follower sheeple slaves to know this. So it has the 'gods' warn Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit "less they become gods like us". Ie., the ELITE writing this propaganda do not want you--the common people--to experience interunion with the natural world, animals, others---they want you to HATE yourself--to be divided from yourself so that they can manipulate you and have you clinging to their author-ity for some future reward!
Edited by zzripz (06/19/11 04:15 PM)
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don_vedo
MerKaBa



Registered: 05/12/11
Posts: 1,383
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Yeah? Well, I am Wisdom and I gave birth to you Demiurge. 
All we can do is interpret using a language that is grown from the Psyche itself, and that language consists in archetypal images. So the analytical thing to do is also the phenomenologist's task - bracket out the invariant symbols, see how they manifest in various cultures, but recognize their essential identity, and go from there. You are not saying anything about a methodology. Gnostic myths are myths for interpreting older myths using the same symbols but attributing different values to them. E.g., the 'shining one' in the Garden becomes a symbol of wisdom, or of gnosis, and is not a 'tempter-devil.' God, who walks "in the cool of the morning" is not Ultimate Reality, but an evil demiurgic abortion which emanated from one of a pair of emanations (Sophia), who attempted to play Creator without consent of her consort, or permission from a Higher Authority. Now, what do each of these personifications say about the human psyche that created this myth?
Supplanting one set of hermeneutics for a Gnostic one doesn't make the latter more revealing about cosmology. It is just an alternate mythic explication of 'why' creation is here. The Valentinian myth is a more complicated infinite regress - another version of "....it's turtles all the way down," and as such, not very helpful IMO, other than to have one throw one's hands up and surrender to the incomprehensibility of Mystery.
Thanks for posting brother, a lot of great insight here, it is obvious that you've done your homework on the subject. In my opinion the Valentinian myth, although not very helpful gives a lot of insight into gnosticsism and what it is truly about. Gnosis comes to those in all different shapes and sizes, what one experiences the other most likely will not; all is truth in it's own form. To surreneder to the incomprehensibility of mystery is in my opinion the best route to chose, I have found when I surrender and do not look I find more then I ever thought I would. I am given the experiences of life and mystery by living and not searching. Follow your heart and you will find your way.
Lah'Kesh
-------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: don_vedo]
#14638648 - 06/19/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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The tree of good and evil could have been a test for God to see if he could create a 'flawed' being, if you take disobedience as a flaw.
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giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: giza]
#14638696 - 06/19/11 04:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Also,
God would have more experience with existence therefore he would "know best". And God created Adam therefore his intelligence was obviously 'omnipotent' compared to Adam and Eve's intellect.
So you should also factor in since this is not proven the possibility that God was actually looking out for the benefit of Adam and Eve.
For example: Take a person who has never smoked weed before. You wouldn't start that person off on a quarter oz of high quality weed all at once would you?
Edited by giza (06/19/11 04:55 PM)
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BeatsandBuds
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I take it as the the fruit is what lowered us into duality.Imo The serpent wasn't malevolent in its actions it thought oh these creatures should know right or wrong so they don't do wrong not realizing that was probably in the base code.
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endogenous
נפל מגיהינום


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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
#17059714 - 10/19/12 06:33 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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It is my belief that the person who forbade the Tree of Knowledge was not "God" but was Pharaoh. In ancient Egypt, the Pharaohs were considered "gods". The Hebrews were ingesting Psychedelics and the Pharaoh, who was considered a "god" forbade them to do that.
I believe that the Tree of Knowledge (Psychedelics) is the true God and that the Serpent was the Tree of Life - Christ. Christ said "I am the Way and the Life." He also "opened the eyes" of the "blind".
This is a picture of the Serpent and the Tree of Knowledge (the Amanita Muscaria Mushroom) from a 13th century fresco on a French abby. From the book "Soma, the Divine Mushroom of Immortality" by R. Gordon Wasson. (The red Agarics look like apples.)
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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Luueschen
Vampire


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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: endogenous]
#17059758 - 10/19/12 06:48 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Who says that their are definite moral absolutes anyways, and that one's opinion of the moral caliber of certain actions effects one's karma according to other pre-established rules and regulations rather than his or her own conscience
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: Luueschen]
#17059833 - 10/19/12 07:18 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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A hazard of contemplating 'Good versus Evil' is that moral absolutes precipitate. Perhaps the admonition to be childlike addresses the issue of entrapment in false premises.
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swimmingfast


Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 1,013
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Quote:
1minutehasgoneby said: The tree where the snake tempted Eve to eat the fruit off of. Why did Jesus not want them to eat off this tree.
It may be a gamble Satan and God were taking. Satan may have wanted to "go for it" and tells them to eat the apple (because I think he exhibits risky behavior), whereas; Jesus may want to be more honest/conservative with the humans by suggesting the truth about the apple - that it may be risky to eat it, and once eaten, the consequences may be difficult to overcome.
I am not sure why a plain ole apple is eaten though - I have some guesses, but why bother? I think it is time though, that this apple's symbolism be switched out for a psychedelic mushroom
Edited by swimmingfast (10/19/12 09:14 AM)
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