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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
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As far as I see the both trees once were the same. The One Tree. The One Life. The Truth about Life and Existence itself. Its conditionality depends upon the splitting of the Truth from the Life. The splitting is the SinFall. The Separation from G*D. Then Life became finite as it was not living from the Truth.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: Middleman]
#14153484 - 03/20/11 12:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Middle said: All symbolism can be interpreted within multiple frameworks, bio, psycho, social, cosmo, etc. from singular or plural perspectives.
Why does the Valentinian story echo so true? I Am the Demiurge.
Yeah? Well, I am Wisdom and I gave birth to you Demiurge. 
All we can do is interpret using a language that is grown from the Psyche itself, and that language consists in archetypal images. So the analytical thing to do is also the phenomenologist's task - bracket out the invariant symbols, see how they manifest in various cultures, but recognize their essential identity, and go from there. You are not saying anything about a methodology. Gnostic myths are myths for interpreting older myths using the same symbols but attributing different values to them. E.g., the 'shining one' in the Garden becomes a symbol of wisdom, or of gnosis, and is not a 'tempter-devil.' God, who walks "in the cool of the morning" is not Ultimate Reality, but an evil demiurgic abortion which emanated from one of a pair of emanations (Sophia), who attempted to play Creator without consent of her consort, or permission from a Higher Authority. Now, what do each of these personifications say about the human psyche that created this myth?
Supplanting one set of hermeneutics for a Gnostic one doesn't make the latter more revealing about cosmology. It is just an alternate mythic explication of 'why' creation is here. The Valentinian myth is a more complicated infinite regress - another version of "....it's turtles all the way down," and as such, not very helpful IMO, other than to have one throw one's hands up and surrender to the incomprehensibility of Mystery.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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oxalic32


Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 3,615
Loc: .
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My teacher told me he has a version of the bible where it doesn't say god when it talks about adam and eve, but gods.
In a movie i watched they had an older version where instead of gods they were just landlords.
Same teacher said there were other trees, such as a tree for immortality.
His theory is the god didn't want them to become greater than him. Maybe they would surpass him or something.
Anyhow he says it will kill them when they eat it. Did they die?
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zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: oxalic32]
#14638513 - 06/19/11 04:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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To understand the Genesis story you have to understand where THEY got it from. It is really originally about the Garden of the Goddess where the garden, Tree, Fruit, and Experience are all sacred, and NOT a sin like these patriarchal Levite priests chose to make it.
They are in effect trying to denigrate the Goddess. Here it is summarized:
They --via 'God's Word' 'demote' the Goddess to a mortal woman, Eve, and have her birthed from Adam---yet another absurd insult to women and the Goddess because it is unnatural, since when do males give birth...? But this is to claim that patriarchal authority is superior, and women should be subserviant to men. They did this trick in Greek mythology where they have a goddess born from the head of Zeus.
Now the Seroent was sacred to the Goddess and one of its important associations was symbolism of eternal life which renews itself cyclically, because the snake sloughs off skin and has new skin underneath. Serpents were also connected with entheogenic mushrooms, and they guarded the Tree of Enlightenment.
So what does 'He' do---he demonizes it, and BLAMES Eve's 'sin' for bringing death into nature. So see what they have done?? They make out that life and death can BE separate. But tell me, how can you have 'front' without 'back'.
The Tree grows mindaltering entheogenic fruit the eating therof IS Enlightenment, because you experience the Garden of the Goddess ecstatically---it is wonder-full, but the patriarchal myth doesn't want its gullible follower sheeple slaves to know this. So it has the 'gods' warn Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit "less they become gods like us". Ie., the ELITE writing this propaganda do not want you--the common people--to experience interunion with the natural world, animals, others---they want you to HATE yourself--to be divided from yourself so that they can manipulate you and have you clinging to their author-ity for some future reward!
Edited by zzripz (06/19/11 04:15 PM)
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don_vedo
MerKaBa



Registered: 05/12/11
Posts: 1,383
Loc: 5th dimension
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Yeah? Well, I am Wisdom and I gave birth to you Demiurge. 
All we can do is interpret using a language that is grown from the Psyche itself, and that language consists in archetypal images. So the analytical thing to do is also the phenomenologist's task - bracket out the invariant symbols, see how they manifest in various cultures, but recognize their essential identity, and go from there. You are not saying anything about a methodology. Gnostic myths are myths for interpreting older myths using the same symbols but attributing different values to them. E.g., the 'shining one' in the Garden becomes a symbol of wisdom, or of gnosis, and is not a 'tempter-devil.' God, who walks "in the cool of the morning" is not Ultimate Reality, but an evil demiurgic abortion which emanated from one of a pair of emanations (Sophia), who attempted to play Creator without consent of her consort, or permission from a Higher Authority. Now, what do each of these personifications say about the human psyche that created this myth?
Supplanting one set of hermeneutics for a Gnostic one doesn't make the latter more revealing about cosmology. It is just an alternate mythic explication of 'why' creation is here. The Valentinian myth is a more complicated infinite regress - another version of "....it's turtles all the way down," and as such, not very helpful IMO, other than to have one throw one's hands up and surrender to the incomprehensibility of Mystery.
Thanks for posting brother, a lot of great insight here, it is obvious that you've done your homework on the subject. In my opinion the Valentinian myth, although not very helpful gives a lot of insight into gnosticsism and what it is truly about. Gnosis comes to those in all different shapes and sizes, what one experiences the other most likely will not; all is truth in it's own form. To surreneder to the incomprehensibility of mystery is in my opinion the best route to chose, I have found when I surrender and do not look I find more then I ever thought I would. I am given the experiences of life and mystery by living and not searching. Follow your heart and you will find your way.
Lah'Kesh
-------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
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giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: don_vedo]
#14638648 - 06/19/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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The tree of good and evil could have been a test for God to see if he could create a 'flawed' being, if you take disobedience as a flaw.
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giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: giza]
#14638696 - 06/19/11 04:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Also,
God would have more experience with existence therefore he would "know best". And God created Adam therefore his intelligence was obviously 'omnipotent' compared to Adam and Eve's intellect.
So you should also factor in since this is not proven the possibility that God was actually looking out for the benefit of Adam and Eve.
For example: Take a person who has never smoked weed before. You wouldn't start that person off on a quarter oz of high quality weed all at once would you?
Edited by giza (06/19/11 04:55 PM)
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BeatsandBuds
Stranger
Registered: 05/30/12
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I take it as the the fruit is what lowered us into duality.Imo The serpent wasn't malevolent in its actions it thought oh these creatures should know right or wrong so they don't do wrong not realizing that was probably in the base code.
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endogenous
נפל מגיהינום


Registered: 10/07/12
Posts: 2,365
Last seen: 25 days, 10 hours
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
#17059714 - 10/19/12 06:33 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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It is my belief that the person who forbade the Tree of Knowledge was not "God" but was Pharaoh. In ancient Egypt, the Pharaohs were considered "gods". The Hebrews were ingesting Psychedelics and the Pharaoh, who was considered a "god" forbade them to do that.
I believe that the Tree of Knowledge (Psychedelics) is the true God and that the Serpent was the Tree of Life - Christ. Christ said "I am the Way and the Life." He also "opened the eyes" of the "blind".
This is a picture of the Serpent and the Tree of Knowledge (the Amanita Muscaria Mushroom) from a 13th century fresco on a French abby. From the book "Soma, the Divine Mushroom of Immortality" by R. Gordon Wasson. (The red Agarics look like apples.)
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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Luueschen
Vampire


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 655
Loc: Southern CA
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: endogenous]
#17059758 - 10/19/12 06:48 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Who says that their are definite moral absolutes anyways, and that one's opinion of the moral caliber of certain actions effects one's karma according to other pre-established rules and regulations rather than his or her own conscience
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Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 3 days, 20 hours
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Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil [Re: Luueschen]
#17059833 - 10/19/12 07:18 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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A hazard of contemplating 'Good versus Evil' is that moral absolutes precipitate. Perhaps the admonition to be childlike addresses the issue of entrapment in false premises.
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swimmingfast


Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 1,013
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Quote:
1minutehasgoneby said: The tree where the snake tempted Eve to eat the fruit off of. Why did Jesus not want them to eat off this tree.
It may be a gamble Satan and God were taking. Satan may have wanted to "go for it" and tells them to eat the apple (because I think he exhibits risky behavior), whereas; Jesus may want to be more honest/conservative with the humans by suggesting the truth about the apple - that it may be risky to eat it, and once eaten, the consequences may be difficult to overcome.
I am not sure why a plain ole apple is eaten though - I have some guesses, but why bother? I think it is time though, that this apple's symbolism be switched out for a psychedelic mushroom
Edited by swimmingfast (10/19/12 09:14 AM)
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