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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14141686 - 03/18/11 05:24 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
Quote:

Who is to say that the sober state is the true state?




In regards to RP's original question, I question the very notion of "true" state to begin with. We have a "default" state of consciousness which evolution has carved into an amazing tool for survival. That said, because it aids us in survival does not mean that it "is the true state."

Furthermore, your very question in the way you worded it, implies that you believe in a 'true state' of consciousness somewhere, someplace, at somepoint. Perhpas you believe that certain altered states of consciousness, meditative, psychedelice, or otherwise, may grant us truer pictures of reality. Like your original metaphor suggests, seeing things from a different perspective doesn't mean you have seen objective, true, reality--only that you have changed the horizons of your perspective.





Yess, there is no true state of mind. Only states of mind.
If you're perception changes with every nano second of the experience, then which state of mind is the true state?
Pure consciousness, without observation or impression, I do not think would count as a state of mind.


I am curious about the idea that the brian is both the house and creator of consciousness. I'm curious why anyone would believe that. Outside of belief and social conditioning, does anyone have the reasoning behind this?


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OfflineShroomScape
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14142308 - 03/18/11 09:38 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

One general comment: I agree with most people here that psychedelics allow us to expand/alter our frame-of-reference to see reality differently. However, I adamantly disagree with anyone that wants to label this expansion as a "more objective" state of consciousness. I have already explained my beef with the term objective in a previous post.

Quote:

Varanid said:
The Schrodinger cat is an over simplification of this and more things I have to reread. The cat is stuck in a box with something that will kill it. Until the box is opened the cat is both alive and dead to the universe, until observed (measured?)

After the cat/measurement/observation there the question of where the other state went, ie multiple world/realities/dimensions.




Varanid, I think you would understand Schrodinger's Cat better if you rephrased it in English-Prime, meaning English without the is-of-identity.  I made a thread about it here. This site does a better, more thorough job of explaining E-Prime.

Alright, I think I should give my interpretation of Schrodinger's cat. The basic experiment goes as follows: you place a cat in a box with a substance of some sort that has a 50% of decaying into something radioactive.

Now if you do the mathematics involved, then according strictly to the results of the equations you would have to conclude with equally certainty that the cat has an equal chance of being dead or of being alive.

Thus, we shouldn't say "the cat IS both dead and alive." Instead we should say, "the cat has an equal chance of being dead or alive and when won't know which until we check."

When you check on the cat, the 'state vector' (the possibilities) collapses into one reality--in regards to the abstract mathematical equations, NOT in regards to reality.

I think the key with understanding QM centers on remembering that mathematics and reality do not equal one another. Mathematics models reality but it does not equal reality in a strict one-to-one isomorphism. If you keep this in mind, it explains why we cannot know if Schrodinger's cat lives or dies until we actually check up on it (until we leave the model of reality and check reality itself).

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14142419 - 03/18/11 10:14 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Hey thanks for that Shroomscape that makes a whole lot more sense!

So it seems that when a lot of people start saying that 'quantum mechanics proves that the universe is not ordered' they are making a MASSIVE assumption that mathematics = reality. but in actual fact mathematics and reality are not necessarily the same.

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz] * 1
    #14142549 - 03/18/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup: Any time.

Forgetting that mathematics models reality, sounds as naively forgetful as mistaking the map for the territory, or the recipe for the meal.

But I do want to reiterate that my understanding and comprehension of QM falls short, way short, of having any ability to speak with authority. However, this interpretation seems to work for me and seems to resolve the more 'spooky-spiritual-quasi-scientific-science-fictional-woo-woo' parts of QM.

That said, even without the loose headed thinking that pseudo-scientists add to QM, it still has reality-shattering implications that will blow your mind as much as any psychedelic trip ever could.

In the words of the physicist Richard Feynmen "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics."

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14144012 - 03/18/11 04:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
So it seems that when a lot of people start saying that 'quantum mechanics proves that the universe is not ordered' they are making a MASSIVE assumption that mathematics = reality. but in actual fact mathematics and reality are not necessarily the same.




Thats an odd statement, Quantum Mechanics is very orderly from my understanding of it. There are just a lot of steps we do not understand, just like in evolution. Evolution is perfectly orderly but we cannot trace every specie back to cause, the fossils aren't there and its extremely complicated - but still orderly in a massive way.


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OfflineShroomScape
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14144256 - 03/18/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:
Quantum Mechanics is very orderly from my understanding of it.




Hmm... something's amiss here.

I don't think the 'completeness' of quantum theory remains in question.

Most people consider QM hard to understand because it does not follow the nice and neat path of ordinary logic and common sense--in other words, it does not follow the orderly logic of Newton's mechanistic universe. At the quantum level, the laws of physics do not apply absolutely, but instead work probabilistically.

Thus, this inherent uncertainty lead to Einstein's famous outburst, "God does not play dice!"

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14144327 - 03/18/11 05:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

From my understanding of it, it is still orderly.
If one can logically understand something to any degree, it is already categorized and put in order to some extent.

Quantum mechanics is unpredictable as yet but we gave it a name and there is enough groundwork done to hold a very long conversation regarding it


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OfflineShroomScape
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14144388 - 03/18/11 05:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Sounds like we have different definitions/standards for the word "orderly." As a theory, I do not doubt that QM seems orderly. But the implications of QM cause me to question the sense of order. When I think orderly, I take it to mean: clear cut, logical, systematic, etc. In other words, when I think orderly, I think: A must lead to B which must lead to C which must lead to D... so forth and so on.

But concepts like entanglement and nonlocality, which defy ANY common sense logic, make me consider QM "unorderly," understood as 'meaning inherently mercurial and unpredictable.' Because QM takes that linear progression of logic, throws it out the window, assumes a world of paradoxes and contradictions, and leaves us in a world of probabilities.

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14144458 - 03/18/11 05:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

In my mind random features can be part of an orderly system, if at no degree there is a system for inferring what will happen - I would say the randomness is part of the system or order.
The individuals life itself seems very orderly, and you can say if you go to college you'll get a better job - thats predictable to some degree. You could say if you get on a plane, you will arrive at your destination. On the other hand there are exception and there are things which are comletely beyond prediction (will I get sick and poop my pants? uncertain).

Order doesn't have to be perfect or understood by my definition, I think that is where we differ on the concept


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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14145399 - 03/18/11 08:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:
In my mind random features can be part of an orderly system, if at no degree there is a system for inferring what will happen - I would say the randomness is part of the system or order.
The individuals life itself seems very orderly, and you can say if you go to college you'll get a better job - thats predictable to some degree. You could say if you get on a plane, you will arrive at your destination. On the other hand there are exception and there are things which are comletely beyond prediction (will I get sick and poop my pants? uncertain).

Order doesn't have to be perfect or understood by my definition, I think that is where we differ on the concept




Sorry but your analogy of "going on a plane" or "going to college" do not apply to QM...

Sure you could get sick but this can easily be plotted out in a logical format. Just because you don't know your going to get sick doesn't mean you won't still expose yourself to a virus and get sick... I think your confusing 'randomness' with simple 'ignorance'. Just because you don't know something is going to happen doesn't make it random.

QM is actually saying (correct me if I'm wrong Shroomscape) that 'using our current logic system, we CANNOT know the outcome even if we can control for all variables, and because we can't predict the outcome we need to actually observe it in order to find out what it is, and in observing it the results will change."

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ShroomScape]
    #14145504 - 03/18/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomScape said:
Alright, I think I should give my interpretation of Schrodinger's cat. The basic experiment goes as follows: you place a cat in a box with a substance of some sort that has a 50% of decaying into something radioactive.

Now if you do the mathematics involved, then according strictly to the results of the equations you would have to conclude with equally certainty that the cat has an equal chance of being dead or of being alive.

Thus, we shouldn't say "the cat IS both dead and alive." Instead we should say, "the cat has an equal chance of being dead or alive and when won't know which until we check."

When you check on the cat, the 'state vector' (the possibilities) collapses into one reality--in regards to the abstract mathematical equations, NOT in regards to reality.

I think the key with understanding QM centers on remembering that mathematics and reality do not equal one another. Mathematics models reality but it does not equal reality in a strict one-to-one isomorphism. If you keep this in mind, it explains why we cannot know if Schrodinger's cat lives or dies until we actually check up on it (until we leave the model of reality and check reality itself).




It seems like you are saying that the math doesnt support the idea of superposition, but then go on to say that the superposition described by the math is not indicitive of realty... :confused:

In either case, I think the results of EPR/Bell/Aspect somewhat negate your interpretation here.

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14147084 - 03/19/11 03:33 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

IMO, our knowledge of quantum mechanics is so incomplete that we really can't be sure of anything. M theory suggests 11 dimensions, and I have a feeling that each dimension holds a fundamental force/property of space-time(wait.. 11?!). We obviously aren't sure about dark matter or dark energy, which makes up most of the universe, so how can we be sure about the rest of the universe without the entire picture?

That said, quantum uncertainty dictates we can not predict the future with accuracy. If quantum uncertainty was not a factor then we could predict each and every event in the universe, assuming there is no interference from conscious beings. This raises the big question, what is consciousness? Is it a result of the known laws of physics or could it be a fundamental force/property in itself? Does quantum uncertainty just allow consciousness to exist, does QU exist to allow consciousness, or are neither real and we are just wrong about both?

Both QU and consciousness are such deep subjects we could have a forum for each, so I will stick to consciousness for the moment.
What separates a computer from a human brain? They are both constructed using electrical pathways to send signals to perform various functions, but what exactly makes humans "aware"? In other words, what gives humans the ability to control the electrical signals within the brain, opposed to computers that have no control over their electrical signals(Other than the rules our consciousness has given it)? They are both tools that preform the same functions, except for the one factor of consciousness. If you look at life in context of the rest of the physical reality, it doesn't make any sense. Everything else is subject to cause and effect, but life has the ability to overcome these events objectively. IMO, Consciousness is a property of nature allowing free will over actions, giving the conscious being control of the other properties of nature. Also IMO, the conscious property of nature is separate from known physical forces, giving structure to the  physical/organic properties of nature. I believe the conscious property of nature could result from, or even cause(doubtful), quantum uncertainty, and would utilize one of the curled(invisible)11 dimensions of space-time.

There is so much we don't know, anything could be possible as long as it makes logical sense, even if we don't know the logic it follows.
Lucky for us, everything has a cause and effect so it is 100% explainable, no mysticism allowd. It would be alot easier if it was though.

Edited by mushiepussy (03/19/11 03:40 AM)

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: durantz]
    #14147230 - 03/19/11 05:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

ahchela said:
In my mind random features can be part of an orderly system, if at no degree there is a system for inferring what will happen - I would say the randomness is part of the system or order.
The individuals life itself seems very orderly, and you can say if you go to college you'll get a better job - thats predictable to some degree. You could say if you get on a plane, you will arrive at your destination. On the other hand there are exception and there are things which are comletely beyond prediction (will I get sick and poop my pants? uncertain).

Order doesn't have to be perfect or understood by my definition, I think that is where we differ on the concept




Sorry but your analogy of "going on a plane" or "going to college" do not apply to QM...

Sure you could get sick but this can easily be plotted out in a logical format. Just because you don't know your going to get sick doesn't mean you won't still expose yourself to a virus and get sick... I think your confusing 'randomness' with simple 'ignorance'. Just because you don't know something is going to happen doesn't make it random.

QM is actually saying (correct me if I'm wrong Shroomscape) that 'using our current logic system, we CANNOT know the outcome even if we can control for all variables, and because we can't predict the outcome we need to actually observe it in order to find out what it is, and in observing it the results will change."




I disagree, there is no way to predict that someone will get sick within a given time. There is no way to even set up a meaningful probability.
It is by definition, random.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Cannot" in such absolute terms. Until that point is proven false there is no way to prove it correct, so if it is true we'll never know.
Our current logic system is called the scientific method, which is almost a poetic way of referring to logic itself. Through the scientific method, anything which can be concieved by the mind - can be explained.

That isn't to say that everything can be explained, just that there is no way to prove within this universe that there is something which cannot be explained or comprehended. If one cannot comprehend it, one would never know for sure. A catch-22


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14147232 - 03/19/11 05:58 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

There is great predictability in the event of someone getting sick, be it them not washing there hands, touching infected objests, or improperly cooked foods there are always stringent variables. compared to QM where your plunged into a world of probability and paradox's seemingly deifying all the logic you've been taught herin.

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14147239 - 03/19/11 06:07 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mushiepussy said:
There is so much we don't know, anything could be possible as long as it makes logical sense, even if we don't know the logic it follows.
Lucky for us, everything has a cause and effect so it is 100% explainable, no mysticism allowd. It would be alot easier if it was though.




Cutting off mysticism is boxing yourself in, what is the logical point to cutting off an avenue as massive or more so than logic itself?
Mysticism is already weaved through modern thought and science by virtue of its influence on various individuals who brought us where we are. There is no avoiding the unknown :smile:


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14147245 - 03/19/11 06:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
There is great predictability in the event of someone getting sick, be it them not washing there hands, touching infected objests, or improperly cooked foods there are always stringent variables. compared to QM where your plunged into a world of probability and paradox's seemingly deifying all the logic you've been taught herin.




I disagree, even if you had all the massive variables like the shape of this persons immune system, the food in their stomach, what trillions of virus' will be entering their system, the cabin pressure, temperature, and every little thing... there would still be no way of knowing if the individual will become sick.
QM has yet to defy the logic I've learned, but I didn't go to public school.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela] * 1
    #14147482 - 03/19/11 08:53 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:

QM has yet to defy the logic I've learned, but I didn't go to public school.




Give me a break....  :rolleyes:  :sherm:

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InvisibleVaranid
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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14147703 - 03/19/11 10:00 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ahchela said:
I am curious about the idea that the brian is both the house and creator of consciousness. I'm curious why anyone would believe that. Outside of belief and social conditioning, does anyone have the reasoning behind this?




I don't know how to answer a question if I can't use what I believe, or what society has instilled in me, either threw conforming or rejecting local norms.  I believe there are two possibilities. We are just a very complex series of electrical, chemical, hormonal reactions or something beyond us gave us our form of consciousness. Where do we get it from in your opinion?

Quote:

ShroomScape said:

But concepts like entanglement and nonlocality, which defy ANY common sense logic, make me consider QM "unorderly," understood as 'meaning inherently mercurial and unpredictable.' Because QM takes that linear progression of logic, throws it out the window, assumes a world of paradoxes and contradictions, and leaves us in a world of probabilities.



Quote:

durantz said:

Entanglement and non locality made sense but I tried to read them like they they were different that anything I knew. I'm going to have to reread everything again obviously. I said something along the lines of that last sentence to a shrink and he said I was some type of anti-social personality that used to be a type of sociopath haha

I rely on math for provable references but know it isn't reality. I had a talk with a girl once who wanted to be average. I just joked and told her that was just the answer to a math equation. She didn't get it till I reminded her you can get a number for the average that wasn't even in the population of numbers.

Quote:

ahchela said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
There is great predictability in the event of someone getting sick, be it them not washing there hands, touching infected objests, or improperly cooked foods there are always stringent variables. compared to QM where your plunged into a world of probability and paradox's seemingly deifying all the logic you've been taught herin.




I disagree, even if you had all the massive variables like the shape of this persons immune system, the food in their stomach, what trillions of virus' will be entering their system, the cabin pressure, temperature, and every little thing... there would still be no way of knowing if the individual will become sick.
QM has yet to defy the logic I've learned, but I didn't go to public school.




The predictability could be translated by the probability. We can't tell the future the only think we can do is measure quantifiable variable and try to give the odds it will happen again.

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: Varanid]
    #14147790 - 03/19/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I screwed up the quotes sorry all my post is mixed in Ill readjust it later

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Re: Drugs on the brain --> perception of reality [Re: ahchela]
    #14148805 - 03/19/11 02:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
QM is actually saying (correct me if I'm wrong Shroomscape) that 'using our current logic system, we CANNOT know the outcome even if we can control for all variables, and because we can't predict the outcome we need to actually observe it in order to find out what it is, and in observing it the results will change."




Haha, I don't feel comfortable when (implicitly)referred to as some kind of authority on QM. That said, if you changed your statement into E-Prime (dropping the is-of-identity), then I would fully agree with it. 

Quote:

DieCommie said:
It seems like you are saying that the math doesnt support the idea of superposition, but then go on to say that the superposition described by the math is not indicitive of realty... :confused:




Perhaps I did not speak clearly. The math supports the idea of superposition but we cannot mistake our mathematical model for reality itself. The idea of superposition works well because it seems to explain what happens. BUT, whether or not our mathematical model, actually reflects reality in a one-to-one isomorphic way, we can never know.

For example: in the same way that we have one set of mathematical equations and experiments to verify that electrons act like particles, we also have a different, yet equally valid, set of mathematical equations and experiments to verify that electrons act like waves. Thus, we can describe electrons as acting like waves or particles with our scientific models, but we can never know how well our model reflects reality. 

Quote:

In either case, I think the results of EPR/Bell/Aspect somewhat negate your interpretation here.



Could you elaborate on this?

Quote:

I disagree, there is no way to predict that someone will get sick within a given time. There is no way to even set up a meaningful probability. It is by definition, random.



When we talk of someone coming down with an illness, we can speak in probabilities, specifically between 1 and 99%. We can say that someone has a good chance (above 50%) of getting sick, but we cannot know ahead of time whether or not that event happens. Whereas when I think of something occurring randomly, I think of something that  we cannot probabilistically. For example, dropping a glass which shatters on the floor. Where the pieces go, the shape of the pieces, etc, all seems random to me. (Theoretically, you can go back and retroactively analyzed the data to create a model to fit it, but you can't tell me ahead of time exactly how the event will pan out. Hence, it seems random to me.)

Quote:

ahchela said:
QM has yet to defy the logic I've learned, but I didn't go to public school.




Under QM logic, you would have to have to logically believe that ONE particle can occupy two different places at the same time, that causation can flow BACKWARD through space and time, and that two particles separated by large distances can communicate INSTANTLY. Sorry, but, concepts like those bend and twist (ordinary) logic inside-out. I cannot imagine that a private school, of any sort, instilled this kind of logic in someone to the point where it seems intuitive to them.

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