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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Phred]
    #1415903 - 03/28/03 12:46 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

>And we are also targeting civilians.

Incorrect. Proof please?

I already listed as evidence the fact that the defense department is defending the murder of people in civilian clothing as evidence. If you aim your gun at a guy in civilian clothing, you are targeting civilians.

>You have no way of knowing whether that was an American bomb or an Iraqi SAM that missed its target and fell on the building and exploded.

Why would Iraq be targetting anywhere near the city limits of Baghdad? You are right, the bomb could have been an American bomb that missed its target but to propose that it was an Iraqi bomb is pretty damned proposterous.



So the only reports we have out of Baghdad are from pro-Saddam reporters. This doesn't offend your sense of impartiality?

Pro-Saddam supporters? I don't know who these reporters are allied with. Hussein is supposedly hated by the Arab world, so I doubt very much that employees of a Qatar based, or UAE-based television network would be pro-Sadaam. He is an eye-witness, and if he says it was an apartment building, I'm gonna believe it.

>And the eyewitness was able to identify from its color or general configuration in the split second it was in view before it exploded that it was an American bomb? Uh huh.

That's not what I meant to imply. My evidence for believing it was an American bomb are because I don't see a genuine reason for Iraq to bomb a Baghdad apartment building.

>And what exactly is the purpose of targetting civilians?

If you don't know if they are civilians or soldiers, you want to kill them just in case.

>What military, operational, and/or political benefit does the US gain by wasting its time deliberately killing civilians?

It's not like they are going out of their way or running special ops. It's just like, "does that guy have a gun? BANG...o guess not"


>As for Iraqi soldiers shedding their uniforms and disguising themselves as civilians in order to fight with less restrictions, what on earth makes you so convinced that Iraqis would never use such tactics? The Viet Namese certainly did.

I never said they wouldn't do that. I'm sure they do. That doesn't mean we aren't aiming at and killing civilians.

>Look, I understand that people should be skeptical of some of the reports coming out of the conflict.

Then why aren't you?

>There have been inaccurate reports (on both sides) from the very beginning.

Stop pretending that you have even looked at an Arab source.

>But you are not ehibiting skepticism, here. You are swallowing hook line and sinker the Iraqi version of reality, which is every bit as foolish (mpre foolish, I say, since there is no independent journalistic presence on the scene in Baghdad) as swallowing uncritically the pentagon's version.

Why are Qatar and UAE sources not independant? Neither nation is involved in this war.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1415923 - 03/28/03 01:37 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Actually it was taken out because the regime was broadcasting military orders over the airwaves making it a legitamate target.




am impressed! Can you tell us how you have access to such facts or is that classified? Oh, wait, or maybe from CNN? Fox News perhaps?

ROTFLMAO!!!!!  :grin: 


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1415925 - 03/28/03 01:38 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Actually it was taken out because the regime was broadcasting military orders over the airwaves making it a legitamate target.




am impressed! Can you tell us how you have access to such 'facts' or is that classified? Oh, wait, or maybe from CNN? Fox News perhaps?

ROTFLMAO!!!!!  :grin:   


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: grib]
    #1415926 - 03/28/03 01:40 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

>I am impressed! Can you tell us how you have access to such facts or is that classified? Oh, wait, or maybe from CNN? Fox News perhaps?


I think Inny's making up his own reports.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #1416037 - 03/28/03 07:17 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah that's it.

This argument is pointless, your stating that you trust a media source that routinely makes up it's own news and is the only media sourse in the region. I can't be the only one who thinks that this is ignorant.

I trust OUR media a hell of a lot more than Al-Jazeera. But to be fair we can all wait and see what your Buddy saddam does next. Who knows, maybe he'll execute a few more civilians and blame it on the United States.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1416089 - 03/28/03 08:31 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

What role if any does oil play in this conflict?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1416120 - 03/28/03 09:01 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Why would you ever say that, I mean Al-Jazeera is run by one of Saddam's sons. How can you not believe what they broadcast. They're obviously an honost network showing the facts of how terrible the Coalition are.

Good thing I'm not brainwashed or brain dead


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Cracka_X]
    #1416122 - 03/28/03 09:04 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Al-Jazeera is run by one of Sadaam's sons.

Source?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #1416178 - 03/28/03 10:03 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

talk radio that got the article from some paper.

I'm trying to look for a link but Odai shows up as owner of Al-Shabab


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Cracka_X]
    #1416214 - 03/28/03 10:44 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

What's Al-Shabab?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #1416248 - 03/28/03 11:22 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

"I already listed as evidence the fact that the defense department is defending the murder of people in civilian clothing as evidence. If you aim your gun at a guy in civilian clothing, you are targeting civilians. "

Jesuc christ man, are you serious? If you are then you are one lost soul. I can't believe you blame the US. How about blaming Saddam for having troops wear civillian clothing.

You are spinning seriously out of control. Please wake up.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Offlinerhizo
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1416254 - 03/28/03 11:31 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

if it wasn't for al jazeera you would never hear about US casualties. it's nice how the pentagon only *confirms* casualties(after they've been shown on al jazeera), and doesn't *report* them. of course media on both sides is full of slant, propaganda, and just plain lies. but at least now people can get war images that haven't been "sanitized" by american media. i don't see why al jazeera makes you so angry and huffy, u working for the pentagon?



--------------------
An optimist is never pleasantly surprised.


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #1416265 - 03/28/03 11:41 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)

It's a news station for Iraq and I was wrong, I misenterpereted Al-Shabab as Al-Jazeera. But Odai is the owner of Al-Shabab.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1416327 - 03/29/03 01:18 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

lol
Quote:

your stating that you trust a media source that routinely makes up it's own news




The argument is pointless because you dont have any evidence to state that reports were ever fabricated.
Just because it doesnt seem like "OUR" media ever fabricates anything doesnt mean that it never happens. Read some history, you'll see.


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1416331 - 03/29/03 01:22 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Remember the Maine!


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #1416337 - 03/29/03 01:29 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

And the Gulf of Tonkin...etc,etc...


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #1416479 - 03/29/03 04:54 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If you aim your gun at a guy in civilian clothing, you are targeting civilians.


No, you're aiming your gun at a guy in civilian clothing. If that guy turns out to be a civilian, then yes, you were targeting civilians, but not if he turns out to be an Iraqi soldier.
Quote:

Why would Iraq be targetting anywhere near the city limits of Baghdad?


Well for one, so all the damage could be showed on Arab networks and all the blame placed on the US. This would help build support for the Iraqi cause amongst the Arab world.

Why would the US target civilians with bombs? Most of our bombs are expensive, wasting them on a civilian target would be horrible strategy. So why do you think the US would do that?


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #1416688 - 03/29/03 11:50 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Senor_Doobie writes:

I already listed as evidence the fact that the defense department is defending the murder of people in civilian clothing as evidence.

The defense department is not defending the "murder" of combatants dressed in civilian clothing. If you fire on US troops, you get fired back at, whether you are wearing a uniform or a tutu.

If you aim your gun at a guy in civilian clothing, you are targeting civilians.

Dressing in civilian clothing doesn't make one a civilian. Please try to think a little bit before you hit the "post" button.

Why would Iraq be targetting anywhere near the city limits of Baghdad?

Just as it is foolish to believe that every single American missile hits its intended target, so it is foolish to believe that of every iraqi missile.

...to propose that it was an Iraqi bomb is pretty damned proposterous.

See if you can follow the logic here:

There are SAM missile batteries inside the city limits of Baghdad. True or false?

Iraqi SAMS are being fired off at US planes. True or false?

Not every Iraqi SAM hits a US plane. True or false?

A SAM whose fuel is exhausted is subject to the law of gravity. True or false?

A SAM hitting the earth after missing its aerial target might explode. True or false?

The spot where the SAM hits the earth and explodes might be within the city limits of Baghdad. True or false?

Please explain to us the preposterousness of the above chain of logic.

Pro-Saddam supporters? I don't know who these reporters are allied with.

They obviously are reporters who meet with his approval, since he has expelled all those who don't. You call this impartial?

He is an eye-witness, and if he says it was an apartment building, I'm gonna believe it.

I believe it was an apartment building, too. I have no opinion one way or the other as to whether it was destroyed by a stray US bomb or a stray Iraqi missile. There is no evidence whatsoever to indicate that it was a US bomb that was deliberately targetted on that apartment building, and no eyewitness in the world, regardless of his love of truth, has any possible way to determine that.

My evidence for believing it was an American bomb are because I don't see a genuine reason for Iraq to bomb a Baghdad apartment building.

You don't? You don't think it possible that it could be a setup; a manufactured incident for propaganda purposes?

I don't see a genuine reason for the US to deliberately target an apartment building. What possible benefit to the US could there be for doing such a thing?

If you don't know if they are civilians or soldiers, you want to kill them just in case.

"Wanting" to kill and killing are not equivalent. Please provide us with an incident where coalition forces have fired on Iraqis dressed as civilians where the same Iraqis dressed as civilians had not first fired on coalition troops.

That doesn't mean we aren't aiming at and killing civilians.

You haven't the slightest shred of evidence to support this suppostion. Get back to me when you do.

Then why aren't you?

I am. Show me a single post where I have indicated belief in what has been reported so far. You can't, because there are no such posts.

Stop pretending that you have even looked at an Arab source.

I'll put up with a lot here, but I won't put up with being called a liar. Show some class, dude.

As it happens, I have looked at Arab sources -- Arab Daily News and the english Al-Jazeera website before it was hacked. I find them no more credible than CNN or BBC or Reuters.

pinky


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1416696 - 03/29/03 11:58 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

lol
Quote:

your stating that you trust a media source that routinely makes up it's own news




The argument is pointless because you dont have any evidence to state that reports were ever fabricated.
Just because it doesnt seem like "OUR" media ever fabricates anything doesnt mean that it never happens. Read some history, you'll see.




In history, IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE A LOT OF MEDIA. When someone says something, you should take in account of WHO that source is, what do they stand for, and so on.

The media makes up stuff sometimes but more often bend the truth to be more positive. Would you wanna be told bad shit bout the war? Wouldn't that make you feel bad? It's the media's white lie to keep you satisfied. The Clinton years are an example of the media's deception.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: Al-Jazeera Web Site Hacked, U.S. Flag Placed on Homepage [Re: Cracka_X]
    #1416859 - 03/29/03 03:01 PM (18 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


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