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OfflineMadtowntripper
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UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya
    #14138793 - 03/17/11 07:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I can't, for the life of me, figure this one out.

The Libyan Gov't has more or less won.  They've recaptured all the rebel territory with the exception of one city, the rebel military forces are collapsed and in disarray, and the government has almost completely reasserted it's authority.

And NOW military action is authorized?  It makes no sense to me at all.

The time to do this was two weeks ago, when a show of any kind of interest from the outside world could have spelled the end of Ghadaffi.

This is way too late.

Quote:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/17/libya.civil.war/index.html?hpt=T1

United Nations (CNN) -- Joyous Libyan rebels in Benghazi erupted with fireworks and gunfire after the U.N. Security Council voted Thursday evening to impose a no-fly zone and "all necessary measures" to protect civilians.

The opposition, with devoted but largely untrained and underequipped units, has suffered military setbacks this week. It has said such international action was necessary for it to have any chance of thwarting Moammar Gadhafi's imminent assault on the rebel stronghold.

"We're hoping and praying that the United Nations will come up with a very firm and very fast resolution and they will enforce it immediately," said Ahmed El-Gallal, a senior opposition coordinator, before the vote.

"We should not arrive too late," French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said at the U.N.

The resolution was approved with 10 votes, including those of the United States and the United Kingdom.

There were no opposing votes on the 15-member council, but China, Russia, Germany, India and Brazil abstained. Germany said it was concerned about a protracted military conflict.

U.N. member states can "take all necessary measures ... to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force," according to the resolution.

It was not immediately clear just how the international military operation and possible strikes against the Libyan military would unfold. The no-fly zone prohibits Libya's air forces from entering certain zones within the country.

Libyan Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Kaim, speaking in Tripoli, told reporters after the vote that the country will safeguard civilians and its territorial integrity.

He called on the international community to send a fact-finding missing to the African nation, but not lend material support to rebels.

A few dozen pro-Gadhafi supporters chanted, "Down with the U.N. Down with Britain. Down with the United States."

The U.S. military does not view a no-fly zone as sufficient to stopping Gadhafi.

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz told a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on Thursday that establishing such a zone "would not be sufficient" to stop the gains made by Gadhafi.

Schwartz told the committee that establishing a no-fly zone would take "upwards of a week."

Gadhafi's son, Saadi, told CNN Thursday evening that troops will change their tactics and take up positions around Benghazi Saturday or Sunday and assist people fleeing from the city.

The younger Gadhafi said there will be no large-scale assault. Instead police and anti-terrorism units will be sent into the rebel stronghold to disarm the opposition. Unspecified humanitarian groups can help with the exodus of civilians from Benghazi, Saadi Gadhafi said.

U.S. military officials have said that a no-fly zone would typically be enforced by fighter jets whose speed and altitude make it difficult to target Gadhafi's helicopters and that it would not halt the heavy artillery the regime is using on the ground.

The resolution condemns the "gross and systematic violation of human rights, including arbitrary detentions, enforced disappearances, torture and summary executions." It details enforcement of an arms embargo against Libya, the freezing of assets and a ban on certain flights.

"The United States stands with the Libyan people in support of their universal rights," said U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice.

The resolution deplores the use of mercenaries by Libyan authorities, expresses concern about the safety of foreign nationals and demands an immediate cease-fire. Kaim said the Gadhafi government supports a cease-fire, but is working out certain details.

The Arab League's U.N. ambassador, Yahya Mahmassani, said two Arab countries would take part in a no-fly zone operation, but he was not sure which two.

British Foreign Secretary William Hague said the U.N. vote shows the need for Libyan citizens "to have a more representative government."

Earlier Thursday, Libyan state TV said that the rebel capital of Benghazi would soon come under attack.

Gadhafi said that his forces would enter Benghazi to rid the city of those "traitors" and that his forces will search everyone for weapons. He added that his forces gave amnesty to those who gave up their weapons in the city of Ajdabiya. "We will not allow further bloodshed among Libyans," Gadhafi said.

"Search for the traitors, for the fanatics. Show them no mercy. We will look for them behind every wall," Gadhafi said. "This farce cannot go on."

There were air strikes on Benghazi's airport Thursday, with three blasts hitting the site about 30 kilometers (about 18 miles) outside the city.

The opposition has been using the airport to launch its own air strikes, using a handful of jets that rebels have managed to get off the ground, opposition leaders said.

It is not clear that Gadhafi's ground forces are actually within striking range of Benghazi, but they have been fighting their way in that direction for several days.

State TV claimed Thursday that Gadhafi's forces were in control of Ajdabiya, on the road to Benghazi, a claim disputed by opposition leaders.

El-Gallal, speaking from eastern Libya, said "morale is high" and people do not want to leave strongholds because Gadhafi "is willing to kill everybody here."

The government forces have taken control of the eastern and western gates to the city and are trying to breach the inside, opposition leaders said. The opposition says it controls the southern entrance.

The opposition says it has a handful of jets that are no match with Gadhafi's superior air power and a pair of Russian-made "Hind" attack helicopters.

Ajdabiya is the last major point between pro-government forces and Benghazi. If it is retaken by pro-Gadhafi forces, it would give access to roads leading to the heart of the opposition's base.

In remarks to the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee, William Burns, the under secretary for political affairs at the State Department, said Gadhafi's forces are only about 160 kilometers outside Benghazi.

"They've made advances, taking full advantage of their overwhelming military superiority in military firepower," Burns said.

He expressed fear that Gadhafi, now isolated by the world community, could turn to terrorism again.

"I think there is also a very real danger that if Gadhafi is successful on the ground, that you will also face a number of other considerable risks as well: The danger of him returning to terrorism and violent extremism himself, the dangers of the turmoil that he could help create at a critical moment elsewhere in the region," Burns told the committee.




--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Invisibledespisedicon
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14139210 - 03/17/11 08:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The French and British and going to lead.  They don't need any help from the USA.  The French have a air base in Chad,and strong military.  At least the UN didn't wait until the rebels got crushed.  :shrug:

This article raises an important point upon its conclusion.  Gaddafi would probably do just that.  Although, it's a no win situation for everyone.  Killing this idiot isn't going to make everything stable.  Waring tribes will fight for his position. 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  and it ain't over until it's over.

Edited by despisedicon (03/17/11 08:29 PM)

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: despisedicon]
    #14139320 - 03/17/11 08:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I think US involvement will be pretty heavy.

The last time the French and the British tried to cooperate on anything militarily, it was on capturing the Suez canal, and they fucked it all up.

And they did pretty much wait until the rebels were crushed.  Listen, two weeks ago they held the entire country except for Triopli and they were marching there.

Now they've lost absolutely everything except for Benghazi, and that is quickly being surrounded.

It's a pretty hopeless situation, in my opinion.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14139355 - 03/17/11 08:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

with the rebs controlling everything at first until pushed back they might do well if air cover for the enemy is removed. I would not put it past a few people in the UN to help them out a bit with a few bombs on the opposing forces that are beyond the scope of just knocking out the anti aircraft systems. War sucks but this will be interesting to see it play out compared to the relatively peaceful changes in power that have happened so far.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: argg]
    #14140084 - 03/17/11 10:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

was there ever a debate?  of course not.  just waiting for a majority of people to swallow the idea that it's something that needs to happen.  let the media spin Libya for a couple months and we're good to go.  same bullshit different day.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
    #14140187 - 03/17/11 10:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Wait, so what's your angle?

The Libyan rebels have been asking for help for weeks now.

Do you not believe that?  Or are you just saying it's not our place?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
    #14142097 - 03/18/11 08:30 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
was there ever a debate?  of course not.  just waiting for a majority of people to swallow the idea that it's something that needs to happen.  let the media spin Libya for a couple months and we're good to go.  same bullshit different day.



And once again someone falls into the trap of believing that the People were ever consulted or that their opinion either matters or is in any way at all informed or influential.  The media doesn't have to spin anything to the People because nobody cares what the People think.  For good reason, too, I might add.

What would you do?


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OfflineGrav
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14142168 - 03/18/11 08:53 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Wait, so what's your angle?

The Libyan rebels have been asking for help for weeks now.

Do you not believe that?  Or are you just saying it's not our place?




no i don't believe that.  do you?

and no it is not our place.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
    #14142317 - 03/18/11 09:40 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Wait, so what's your angle?

The Libyan rebels have been asking for help for weeks now.

Do you not believe that?  Or are you just saying it's not our place?




no i don't believe that.  do you?

and no it is not our place.




Yes, I absolutely believe it.

Listen, it's being reported everywhere.  There are plenty of news sources out there that are diametrically opposed to one another.  That have no reason to cooperate on any kind of news white-out.  When the New York Times, Al-Jazeera, The Jerusalem Post, ITAR-TASS, and the Beijing Post all same the damn thing, that is some kind of credible consensus, don't ya think?

And yes, I do think it is our place.  I'm not so arrogant as to think that we are too good to stop the slaughter of innocent people when the opportunity presents itself.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14142351 - 03/18/11 09:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The UN as it is is a completely worthless organization. I think we should do something worthwhile with our military and destroy  their clubhouse.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Icelander]
    #14142403 - 03/18/11 10:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I am almost completely agreed.

I find it hard to suppress my utopian  tendencies that have me believing that a cooperative, one-world government is the only eventual hope for humanity, but it isn't hard to see that the UN is not in any way what I am looking for.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Icelander]
    #14142438 - 03/18/11 10:19 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The UN as it is is a completely worthless organization. I think we should do something worthwhile with our military and destroy  their clubhouse.



I think it would make a lovely apartment building with fancy retail space.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14143052 - 03/18/11 12:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

Grav said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Wait, so what's your angle?

The Libyan rebels have been asking for help for weeks now.

Do you not believe that?  Or are you just saying it's not our place?




no i don't believe that.  do you?

and no it is not our place.




Yes, I absolutely believe it.

Listen, it's being reported everywhere.  There are plenty of news sources out there that are diametrically opposed to one another.  That have no reason to cooperate on any kind of news white-out.  When the New York Times, Al-Jazeera, The Jerusalem Post, ITAR-TASS, and the Beijing Post all same the damn thing, that is some kind of credible consensus, don't ya think?




absolutely not.  why assume any of them are telling you the truth?

Quote:

And yes, I do think it is our place.  I'm not so arrogant as to think that we are too good to stop the slaughter of innocent people when the opportunity presents itself.




you really think the UN is concerned with saving innocent lives?

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
    #14143080 - 03/18/11 12:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
absolutely not.  why assume any of them are telling you the truth?

Quote:

And yes, I do think it is our place.  I'm not so arrogant as to think that we are too good to stop the slaughter of innocent people when the opportunity presents itself.




you really think the UN is concerned with saving innocent lives?




You're not assuming any of them are telling you the truth.  You are using the available information to decide what YOU think the truth is.  Listen, the universe is a vast place and it is impossible for anyone to directly observe even a tiny fraction of the things taking place.  The fact that you can't see something happening with your own eyes is no reason to completely discount it.

I'm sure it's cool to be counter-cultural and think the all news is for old people and that world events are just a giant sink-hole of misinformation, but at some point it just becomes kind of sad and pathetic to not believe anything.  There are people there on the ground, thousands of them, that you can watch in videos and read on twitter and see interviewed on the news and read their stories in the newspaper and talk to yourself on videocasts.

If you're not going to believe any of them, you might as well just say that you don't believe in Libya, or that you believe all Libyans are fanciful creatures with the ears of cats and tails like pigs.

I'm not even sure how you could begin to formulate that its a vast conspiracy.

And while I don't think that is the UN's main mission, I think in this case it is.  It's pretty hard to think of another one, isn't it?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineGrav
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14143656 - 03/18/11 02:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

you're just seeing a bunch of images of the Libyan people and then the media is interpreting for you the story of what is happening there, who the villains are, the good guys, and proposed solutions.  you're being sold a war through your emotions and desire to help innocent people.  you think a military invasion is going to make people's lives better?

as for your tweets and blogs, etc. from people on the ground,  you might find this article interesting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8388603/US-military-creates-fake-online-personas.html

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
    #14143704 - 03/18/11 03:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Dude, you're so anti-establishment that you have lost the ability to reason.

Tell me what YOU think is happening there.

Or do you stand by the fact that it's impossible to know anything that you can't see yourself.

Is it fair to believe that...

A) You think Ghadaffi is a good person?

b) That people who don't think Ghadaffi is a good person are wrong?

c) That this rebellion against Ghadaffi is bad?

and that...

d) UN intervention is some kind of ploy to invade Libya?

Or do we have to start at a more basic point like, "Do you believe in Libya and/or Ghadaffi?" or "Do you believe that a rebellion is actually happening?"

Listen, it just doesn't make sense.  I have friends who are Libyan.  My best friend from college, Hesham, is an engineer for the Libyan National Oil Company.  His family has had almost everything taken from by Ghadaffi.  They HATE him there.  Seriously, thinking he is a good guy in all of this is insane.

I would love to hear your justification for that.

And if I'm putting words in your mouth, I'm sorry.  I'm just trying to understand if you're so skeptical of everything exactly what do you think is going on there.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
    #14143715 - 03/18/11 03:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
you're just seeing a bunch of images of the Libyan people and then the media is interpreting for you the story of what is happening there, who the villains are, the good guys, and proposed solutions.  you're being sold a war through your emotions and desire to help innocent people.  you think a military invasion is going to make people's lives better?

as for your tweets and blogs, etc. from people on the ground,  you might find this article interesting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8388603/US-military-creates-fake-online-personas.html



So there is nothing at all happening there, right?  Nothing to see there, move along.

You didn't answer my question.  What would you do?  Ignore it since it isn't really happening?


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14144392 - 03/18/11 05:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

There are accusations that israel is supporting gaddafi, Sarkozy recognized certain tribal leader of eastern lybia.

Quote:

you're just seeing a bunch of images of the Libyan people and then the media is interpreting for you the story of what is happening there, who the villains are, the good guys, and proposed solutions.  you're being sold a war through your emotions and desire to help innocent people.  you think a military invasion is going to make people's lives better?

as for your tweets and blogs, etc. from people on the ground,  you might find this article interesting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8388603/US-military-creates-fake-online-personas.html




there are reasons to believe that the zionists supports both side, thus the military cease-fire is a good answer for the people.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: communeart]
    #14144453 - 03/18/11 05:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The "zionists" are supporting BOTH sides?

Are the conspiracy theories breaking down that bad?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: communeart]
    #14144455 - 03/18/11 05:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

A cease-fire?  Are you saying there should be two Libyas?

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14145218 - 03/18/11 08:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Grav said:
you're just seeing a bunch of images of the Libyan people and then the media is interpreting for you the story of what is happening there, who the villains are, the good guys, and proposed solutions.  you're being sold a war through your emotions and desire to help innocent people.  you think a military invasion is going to make people's lives better?

as for your tweets and blogs, etc. from people on the ground,  you might find this article interesting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8388603/US-military-creates-fake-online-personas.html



So there is nothing at all happening there, right?  Nothing to see there, move along.

You didn't answer my question.  What would you do?  Ignore it since it isn't really happening?




what do you think is happening?

yes of course i would ignore it if the alternative is military invasion.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
    #14145582 - 03/18/11 09:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
yes of course i would ignore it if the alternative is military invasion.




Do you consider an air strike to be an invasion?

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14145662 - 03/18/11 09:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It's a love letter.:tongue:


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Icelander]
    #14145686 - 03/18/11 09:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

More like a love tap.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14147545 - 03/19/11 09:10 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I beleive the story they are telling about getting widespread support first. I can a couple of good reasons for this:

1. Making sure it doesn't look like America or the West is getting involved in neo colonialism. Might sound trite to you but if you look it the history of the region it is full of resentment of foreign rule, its often argued that the British colonialism and then carving up of borders is a major cause of conflict. Also it is not without precedent in more recent times, i.e. Iran

2. Getting everyone agreeing on the same page helps ensure a sustained effort. If a country just went in there unilaterally the effort could be sustained, OR the political whims of the day might undermine a sustained effort.

On the other hand who knows what's really going on. The US has been trying to take out gaddifi for years. In 1953 the US organized a coup in Ian:

Quote:

The Central Intelligence Agency pressured the weak monarch while bribing street thugs, clergy, politicians and Iranian army officers to take part in a propaganda campaign against Mosaddegh and his government.

...

According to the CIA's declassified documents and records, some of the most feared mobsters in Tehran were hired by the CIA to stage pro-Shah riots on the 19th. Other CIA-paid men were brought into Tehran in buses and trucks, and took over the streets of the city.


- wikipedia



I wonder why the UN is so interested in Libya. What about protecting the citizens in the other many African countries, or in Myanmar. Its amazing that so much interest and now action is pointed to Libya when it is one of many countries with similar problems.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Freedom]
    #14147710 - 03/19/11 10:04 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The coalition forces are already attacking the Libyan forces right now.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
    #14147902 - 03/19/11 10:56 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Grav said:
you're just seeing a bunch of images of the Libyan people and then the media is interpreting for you the story of what is happening there, who the villains are, the good guys, and proposed solutions.  you're being sold a war through your emotions and desire to help innocent people.  you think a military invasion is going to make people's lives better?

as for your tweets and blogs, etc. from people on the ground,  you might find this article interesting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8388603/US-military-creates-fake-online-personas.html



So there is nothing at all happening there, right?  Nothing to see there, move along.

You didn't answer my question.  What would you do?  Ignore it since it isn't really happening?




what do you think is happening?




People are fighting and dieing.  Some have an advantage.
Quote:



yes of course i would ignore it if the alternative is military invasion.




False dichotomy, child.  Make an answer that doesn't include "if".  If you have the nerve.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Freedom]
    #14147913 - 03/19/11 10:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:


On the other hand who knows what's really going on. The US has been trying to take out gaddifi for years.




If the US wanted to take out Ghaddafi they could have done so fairly easily.  He's traveled to NYC many times.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: German Kahuna]
    #14148230 - 03/19/11 12:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Some kadhafi's tanks have just been destroyed by french troops.
Im not for a war but we decently cant let civils been eradicated in Benghazi.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: mill]
    #14148246 - 03/19/11 12:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

What makes them civilians?  They are actively waging war against Ghaddafi.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14148265 - 03/19/11 12:42 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What makes them civilians?



Children, wifes... not sure they're actively participating at wars for example. Kadhafly clearly told that he will "clean" the town including civils.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: mill]
    #14148296 - 03/19/11 12:50 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Human shields?  Seems pretty vile to me.  What kind of asshole brings his wife and kids into a war?


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: mill]
    #14148466 - 03/19/11 01:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

As if the Lybian forces would be able to surgically strike against the opposition forces by dropping bombs on and shelling the city of Bengasi. Ridiculous.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14148664 - 03/19/11 02:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
And yes, I do think it is our place.  I'm not so arrogant as to think that we are too good to stop the slaughter of innocent people when the opportunity presents itself.




why these people? what about the millions of other slaughtered innocent people who we dont help? Why here, why now?

Do you study history at all? Its hard not to see this as another act of imperialism.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14148974 - 03/19/11 03:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Freedom said:


On the other hand who knows what's really going on. The US has been trying to take out gaddifi for years.




Was this before Bush 2? I was listening to a BBC interview with an ex CIA guy (not an analyst but someone who was 'in the field' and according to him they had a kill order to take out Gaddafi.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: danielx]
    #14149236 - 03/19/11 04:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
And yes, I do think it is our place.  I'm not so arrogant as to think that we are too good to stop the slaughter of innocent people when the opportunity presents itself.




why these people? what about the millions of other slaughtered innocent people who we dont help? Why here, why now?

Do you study history at all? Its hard not to see this as another act of imperialism.




I have a history degree, yes.  I've studied history, and European history in particular, extensively.  I live for shit like this.

How is this colonialism, of any stripe?  Who will be the overlords?  Do you really think Paris or London can, or even want to, run the affairs of Tripoli?

Seriously?

Colonialism is dead and buried.  It's completely failed and discredited as a national strategy decision.  Nobody does it.

The easy thing to do is look at any military action that a country takes outside of it's own borders and say "Aha! They are just there for land/oil/money! Damnable imperialists!" I'm not some military hawk, you can look at my posts here from years ago excoriating the American adventure in Iraq.  But as I've in the last few days, this is a completely different thing.

Just because force was applied in a shameful fashion with questionable justification a few years ago in this part of the world does not mean that is what is happening here.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14149294 - 03/19/11 04:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

here we go, another immoral aggressive act of war is underway and the naive morons of the world rejoice that we are bringing the poor libyans freedom.  you gullible fools will swallow anything.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
    #14149312 - 03/19/11 04:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I know you don't believe in Libyans, but the people currently being attacked by Ghadaffi have been begging us to do this for a week now.

I realize that you are perfectly okay with people dying because of your beliefs, but I, for one, am not.

Life before idealism, thank you very much.


--------------------
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He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper] * 1
    #14149852 - 03/19/11 06:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/19/france-fires-libyan-military-vehicle/

Quote:

"We have every reason to fear that left unchecked, Qaddafi will commit unspeakable atrocities," Clinton said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/19/france-fires-libyan-military-vehicle/#ixzz1H5vSTP86





Why would anybody believe anything different of his opponents?  Here's a bankable bet.  Both sides will commit deplorable horrors on the other.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14149910 - 03/19/11 06:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Not the people, but the rebels and their leaders, they are always foreign backed, and they always kill the bad one in the eggs. only gaddafi is free from assassination.

Quote:


Life before idealism, thank you very much.



you have such a taboo against murder by gunfire,explosions and physical attacks. you seem to have no taboo with murder through chemicals,food speculation and so on.

I would support the rebels if they had idealism before life, but it is inevitably the people like you supporting them inevitably leads me to not care about their suffering and that really sucks. It is not people like you to be exact, but rather the fact that the forces you support do not need support, and you merely crush a weak people in reality. Gaddafi is the choice of their ancestors, it is a corrupt regime but it was one that the arabs fully supported,

Quote:


If the US wanted to take out Ghaddafi they could have done so fairly easily.  He's traveled to NYC many times.



hm, it is different to kill him in the united states than elsewhere. also his regime would have probably lasted longer, the arab world would have reacted very strongly against the united states since lybia controls oil region. fa

Edited by communeart (03/19/11 09:14 PM)

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14150155 - 03/19/11 07:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:


Why would anybody believe anything different of his opponents?  Here's a bankable bet.  Both sides will commit deplorable horrors on the other.





I was going to say something based on a quote I couldn't remeber quite right and then I found all these quotes and nothing I can say could match them

wikiquotes war

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14152211 - 03/20/11 03:15 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Why would anybody believe anything different of his opponents?  Here's a bankable bet.  Both sides will commit deplorable horrors on the other.




Fully agree on that point. The question is not to take part for a side, but is, can we let those deplorable horrors happened ? Philisophical subject for a dinner with friends and wine for all the night.

@ German Kahuna :
Quote:

As if the Lybian forces would be able to surgically strike against the opposition forces by dropping bombs on and shelling the city of Bengasi. Ridiculous.



Ofc not, do i let the impression to tell something contrary ? That is why i think wife and children will be the first victims. Maybe cause of my shitty english i dont get the point here :smirk:. You mean what i told was obvious ?

Edited by mill (03/20/11 03:20 AM)

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: mill]
    #14153783 - 03/20/11 01:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Naw. I am unable to reply to the person you replied to directly so I replied to you. It was actually directed at zappaisgod. I support what you said.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: German Kahuna]
    #14153877 - 03/20/11 01:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

German Kahuna said:
Naw. I am unable to reply to the person you replied to directly so I replied to you. It was actually directed at zappaisgod. I support what you said.



"Unable"?  Funny, this is another person who thinks his self inflicted wounds are not his fault, out of his control and constitute a disability.:flowstone:


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14154269 - 03/20/11 02:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Gaddafi refused to deal in dollars, that is one of the reason why the united states is attacking him . EXACTLY the smae reason they went after Saddam, it is time people wake up to what we have in front of us, and it is time that people realize not only it can change but it must change

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: despisedicon]
    #14154478 - 03/20/11 03:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

despisedicon said:
The French and British and going to lead.  They don't need any help from the USA.  The French have a air base in Chad,and strong military.  At least the UN didn't wait until the rebels got crushed.  :shrug:

This article raises an important point upon its conclusion.  Gaddafi would probably do just that.  Although, it's a no win situation for everyone.  Killing this idiot isn't going to make everything stable.  Waring tribes will fight for his position. 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  and it ain't over until it's over.






oh god this isn't middle east all over again is it? is obama staying out of this? or are we involved now?


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: communeart] * 1
    #14154890 - 03/20/11 05:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
Gaddafi refused to deal in dollars, that is one of the reason why the united states is attacking him . EXACTLY the smae reason they went after Saddam, it is time people wake up to what we have in front of us, and it is time that people realize not only it can change but it must change




You must have your head up your ass. 

If France didn't "intervene" in the American revolution, we'd probably still be sucking the Queen's dick.  Of course, you're Canadian, and a communist, so you clearly prefer authoritarianism. 

I see no reason to not support popular democratic revolts anywhere, especially one against such a massive piece of shit as Qaddafi.  By non-action you are still taking sides, you realize that right?  You take Qaddafi's side?  By what possible path of convoluted logic can you prefer that pile of crap over any popular movement of the citizens? 

The rebels asked directly for help and we're giving it to them. 

You are either willfully ignorant or delusional.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14155725 - 03/20/11 07:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> You are either willfully ignorant or delusional.

:rofl:

Welcome to the political discussion forum, my friend.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14155856 - 03/20/11 08:13 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I know you don't believe in Libyans, but the people currently being attacked by Ghadaffi have been begging us to do this for a week now.




which Libyan people are you referring to?  can you please list for me each faction of power in Libya, who they represent and who they take orders from?  or are we really to believe this is simply the story of the brave Libyan people vs. the evil oppressive regime because we heard it from the same media agencies that were so objective, investigative, and truthful about the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions?

Quote:

I realize that you are perfectly okay with people dying because of your beliefs, but I, for one, am not.

Life before idealism, thank you very much.




well now you not only have to worry about people dying in a civil war but also foreign armies dropping bombs on them.  congratulations.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav] * 1
    #14156097 - 03/20/11 08:50 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
or are we really to believe this is simply the story of the brave Libyan people vs. the evil oppressive regime because we heard it from the same media agencies that were so objective, investigative, and truthful about the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions?




Thanks to the internet, it's no longer necessary to trust those media organizations exclusively.  For example, I've been getting most of my information from Libyans in Libya, one of whom was sniped while reporting in his hometown of Benghazi.  Just a few hours before he was shot, I was talking to him and his wife on web cam.


Quote:


well now you not only have to worry about people dying in a civil war but also foreign armies dropping bombs on them.  congratulations.




They asked us to drop those bombs. 

In any case, it's clear that if Qaddafi wins, he will be arresting and probably executing thousands of civilians in retribution.  Why do I believe that?  Because that's what he is doing now and has been doing since he came to power.  You are obviously choosing which information to believe based on some personal agenda, so why not just pretend the whole thing isn't even happening?  Ignore all the information completely.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14156182 - 03/20/11 09:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

ah tweets.  i'm sure they are all from genuine libyan people, too.  why question such a thing?

Quote:

They asked us to drop those bombs.



i'm truly sorry you believe that...

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
    #14156222 - 03/20/11 09:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Grav said:
ah tweets.  i'm sure they are all from genuine libyan people, too.  why question such a thing?

Quote:

They asked us to drop those bombs.



i'm truly sorry you believe that...





:suicide:

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14156295 - 03/20/11 09:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

So of Geddoflundgren asked us to drop some bombs on some people for him, it'd be cool, because he asked us?


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #14156324 - 03/20/11 09:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

A)Who is that? 

B)If an armed man had me on the ground and was stomping on my skull, and I asked you to shoot him, would you?  Even if you wouldn't, would it be wrong to do so?

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14156434 - 03/20/11 09:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

A) You know, the final boss of Libya that you have to blow up before you can collect all the coins.  Kadofi? Gaddafi? Quahdauphiegh?

B) Maybe and maybe.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14156589 - 03/20/11 10:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

what i want to know is when has America playing international police ever worked out for us?


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14156609 - 03/20/11 10:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

People are dumb beasts that bloody each other over territory like any primate driving another away with an awkwardly wielded stick, waving it in the air, beating the ground, and if that doesn't work, screeching and biting, smearing blood across his face.  Libyans, The French, Britons, Americans, chimpansees ... hopeless, foolish brutes.  Chuang sarcastically recommends indifference to people with whom he disagrees, implying that indifference is not a humane alternative to siding with the righteous--which is what the better informed do (Ha!).  Collectively, people are so rarely righteous that this is delusional thinking at best.  Taking sides is almost always less civilized than turning away.  It is politics and second nature to savages; it's the lusty hoot and holler of people like Zappa and Annapurna1, signifying our collective disgrace, nothing more.  I'm tired of it.  Here's an egg on a piece of toast for no reason:  :breakfast:

EDIT: Sorry, this whole bombing another arab country thing has me in a foul mood.


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Edited by Not Quite Social (03/20/11 10:07 PM)

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: danielx]
    #14156694 - 03/20/11 10:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
what i want to know is when has America playing international police ever worked out for us?




It is indeed rare, but it has happened.  Intervention in World War II for example worked out pretty well for us over the alternative.

I find it hard to think of any foreign military operation that the US military has been involved in that I support.  This, however, is one of them.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14156745 - 03/20/11 10:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Chuang asked, "would it be wrong to do so?"

Rather, ask yourself: is it wrongheaded to rationalize and accept lobbing missiles at people from hundreds of miles away and dropping bombs on people from thousands of feet?

Truly, are there crimes that justify these?


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Edited by Not Quite Social (03/20/11 10:26 PM)

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14156834 - 03/20/11 10:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
People are dumb beasts that bloody each other over territory like any primate driving another away with an awkwardly wielded stick, waving it in the air, beating the ground, and if that doesn't work, screeching and biting, smearing blood across his face.  Libyans, The French, Britons, Americans, chimpansees ... hopeless, foolish brutes.  Chuang sarcastically recommends indifference to people with whom he disagrees, implying that indifference is not a humane alternative to siding with the righteous--which is what the better informed do (Ha!).  Collectively, people are so rarely righteous that this is delusional thinking at best.  Taking sides is almost always less civilized than turning away.  It is politics and second nature to savages; it's the lusty hoot and holler of people like Zappa and Annapurna1, signifying our collective disgrace, nothing more.  I'm tired of it.  Here's an egg on a piece of toast for no reason:  :breakfast:

EDIT: Sorry, this whole bombing another arab country thing has me in a foul mood.




That's exactly what has been going down in Libya for 42 years.  Nobody should have to live in those kind of conditions.  They've had enough and Qaddafi will obviously not relinquish the reins without a fight.  Undoubtedly, his sons wouldn't either.  Now they're putting their lives on the line for a chance to free themselves from the yoke of tyranny and they have asked for our help.  You'd just sit idly by while the people of Libya are strafed by fighter jets and executed in the streets?  If you think that makes you more civilized, then all I can say is I'm glad you're not my neighbor.  I think you can comfortably sit here and say that the Libyans should continue living like that simply because you, yourself, live in a reasonably free society.  Simply ignoring it won't make it go away, even if it makes you feel better.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14156846 - 03/20/11 10:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
Chuang asked, "would it be wrong to do so?"

Rather, ask yourself: is it wrongheaded to rationalize and accept lobbing missiles at people from hundreds of miles away and dropping bombs on people from thousands of feet?

Truly, are there crimes that justify these?




Yes.  What difference does it make if an aggressors are stopped from thousands of feet, hundreds of miles away, or face to face?

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14156872 - 03/20/11 10:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Indian givers..


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14156884 - 03/20/11 10:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The distance enables and emphasizes the inhumanity.  Put a switch, a trigger, a lever, a button, or a distance between a man and his victims and the man is empowered by his nature to commit violence and cruelty.

EDIT: The same distance empowers you to accept it.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14156939 - 03/20/11 10:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Wrong is either flatout wrong or morality is twisted to serve our amoral personal and tribal needs and desires.  I choose to have fixed standards, such as killing people is wrong.  This is not, as in this case, a comfortable easy belief, as you suggested.  I have compassion for Gaddafi's victims.  You would have me sanction murder for them?  Compassion and murder are two distinctly different things that, amazingly, get confused by people who have no fixed morality.   


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14156980 - 03/20/11 11:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
Wrong is either flatout wrong or morality is twisted to serve our amoral personal and tribal needs and desires.  I choose to have fixed standards, such as killing people is wrong.




What if killing one person prevents the killing of two people?

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14157045 - 03/20/11 11:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Wrong is wrong.  Of course, day to day stuff is not that simple but when it comes to missiles and bombs it's so obvious I get very frustrated that others don't see it.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14157146 - 03/20/11 11:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
The distance enables and emphasizes the inhumanity.  Put a switch, a trigger, a lever, a button, or a distance between a man and his victims and the man is empowered by his nature to commit violence and cruelty.

EDIT: The same distance empowers you to accept it.




You call it inhumanity, I call it humanity.  Would you stand by idly while your neighbor is assaulted if you had the ability to stop it? 

Perhaps it's the distance that empowers you to ignore it.

Killing people sucks, by whatever the method, but sometimes prevents a greater wrong.  In the case that the decision has been made to kill, it makes no difference from where you choose to carry out the task except as a matter of practicality.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14157192 - 03/20/11 11:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It does make a difference.  We're socialized to kill.  We don distictive constumes and role play something we call soldiers, and, thereby, we're magically morally licensed to kill.  We empower our evil nature by ritually disassociate ourselves from the evil acts we commit.  Like I said, when you rationalize and twist morality like this it ceases to serve the common good, it becomes evil on behalf of the deluded individual and his tribe.

Anyway, I can see you are stuck in your way of thinking.  There are common levels, plateaus, at which people stop thinking.  Enjoy the view there.  I'm sure it's no more or less impotent than my vantage.  Good night.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14158988 - 03/21/11 12:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
Chuang asked, "would it be wrong to do so?"

Rather, ask yourself: is it wrongheaded to rationalize and accept lobbing missiles at people from hundreds of miles away and dropping bombs on people from thousands of feet?

Truly, are there crimes that justify these?




Yes.  What difference does it make if an aggressors are stopped from thousands of feet, hundreds of miles away, or face to face?



Just exactly who do you suppose are the aggressors?  Who are these rebels?  What do they stand for?  What gives anybody the idea that they are an improvement over Ghaddafi (not that that would take much but still)?


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14159479 - 03/21/11 02:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Just exactly who do you suppose are the aggressors? 





Qaddafi and his minions.

Quote:

Who are these rebels?




Everyone who is against Qaddafi, which seems to be a large chunk of the Libyan population. 

Quote:

What do they stand for?




Right now, publicly, they stand for not Qaddafi.  But generally they would like to be free of autocracy and have some degree of self-determination. 

Quote:

What gives anybody the idea that they are an improvement over Ghaddafi (not that that would take much but still)?




That remains to be seen.  But certainly the "leaders" which have taken on a public face haven't given any indication that they are anything like Qaddafi.  Right now they're a loose coalition, if you can even call it that, with very little coordination and communication amongst themselves, so it'd be pretty hard to label them all with one stroke.  It seems to me that they're simply the bulk of Libyan citizens, nearly every one of which probably has some beef or another with Qaddafi.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14159582 - 03/21/11 02:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Just exactly who do you suppose are the aggressors? 





Qaddafi and his minions.




Oh really?  They were just sitting there minding their own government business when a rabble came a knocking.
Quote:



Quote:

Who are these rebels?




Everyone who is against Qaddafi, which seems to be a large chunk of the Libyan population.




Everyone who is against Ghaddafi?  What kind of idiot answer is that?  And just what does large mean?  By large do you mean "noisy"?
Quote:


Quote:

What do they stand for?




Right now, publicly, they stand for not Qaddafi.  But generally they would like to be free of autocracy and have some degree of self-determination.




How do you know they just don't want to supplant Ghaddafi's autocracy with one of their own?  Answer:  You don't.
Quote:

 

Quote:

What gives anybody the idea that they are an improvement over Ghaddafi (not that that would take much but still)?




That remains to be seen.  But certainly the "leaders" which have taken on a public face haven't given any indication that they are anything like Qaddafi.  Right now they're a loose coalition, if you can even call it that, with very little coordination and communication amongst themselves, so it'd be pretty hard to label them all with one stroke.  It seems to me that they're simply the bulk of Libyan citizens, nearly every one of which probably has some beef or another with Qaddafi.




The bulk of the Libyan citizens, including most of the tribal leaders, appear to be mostly uninvolved.

The lack of clarity and quality in your response leads me to believe that you have no problem forming an opinion in an almost complete absence of knowledge.  I heard something like this from John Batchelor this morning:

Quote:

Richard Engel, NBC, struggle mightily to convey the fact that the rebels in Benghazi are not a democratic front, not even a coherent political front, but rather a rag-tag collection of second rate thugs with a handful of ambitious lawyers and other Francophone self-elected celebrities. The coalition is bombing to protect a marginal enterprise that enjoys no legitimacy. Am told that the rebel leaders are dominated by men who barely control their own cellphones and laptops. That the rebel leaders use cellphones is the tell. The guns are in the hands of the Cyrenaica tribals, who will not move against Q. The tribals only know how to protect their territory. This is a civil war with no end in…
By John Batchelor




I am not putting that out there as gospel truth.  And I think Ghaddafi should be assassinated.  But anybody who thinks what is going on there is some example of a Democratic uprising supported by a huge portion of Libyans is a fucking fool who knows absolutely nothing about the history of Africa or the Mid-East.  Why we are in this fight is beyond me except to the point that Ghaddafi should have been killed long ago.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14159790 - 03/21/11 03:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Oh really?  They were just sitting there minding their own government business when a rabble came a knocking.




They haven't been minding their own business for 42 years.

Quote:


Everyone who is against Ghaddafi?  What kind of idiot answer is that?






Seems like a clear answer to me.

Quote:

And just what does large mean?  By large do you mean "noisy"?




Impossible to get exact numbers.  What's your estimate? :tongue:

Quote:


How do you know they just don't want to supplant Ghaddafi's autocracy with one of their own?  Answer:  You don't.


 

Like I said, it remains to be seen.  Did you even read my post?

Quote:


The bulk of the Libyan citizens, including most of the tribal leaders, appear to be mostly uninvolved.


 

How do you know that?

Quote:


The lack of clarity and quality in your response leads me to believe that you have no problem forming an opinion in an almost complete absence of knowledge. 




Are you claiming that you have more knowledge of what is going on in Libya than I do?

Quote:


I heard something like this from John Batchelor this morning:

Quote:

Richard Engel, NBC, struggle mightily to convey the fact that the rebels in Benghazi are not a democratic front, not even a coherent political front, but rather a rag-tag collection of second rate thugs with a handful of ambitious lawyers and other Francophone self-elected celebrities. The coalition is bombing to protect a marginal enterprise that enjoys no legitimacy. Am told that the rebel leaders are dominated by men who barely control their own cellphones and laptops. That the rebel leaders use cellphones is the tell. The guns are in the hands of the Cyrenaica tribals, who will not move against Q. The tribals only know how to protect their territory. This is a civil war with no end in…
By John Batchelor




I am not putting that out there as gospel truth.  And I think Ghaddafi should be assassinated. 




I'm sure there is an element of truth to that.  Not everyone wants Qaddafi out for the same reason, has the same political agenda, the same beliefs, or the same aspirations.  But they all have at least one common legitimate goal which both of us support.  The Libyans that I've been talking to in Benghazi do want democracy and even if they only make up a small portion of rebels, they believe they can pull it off, and I support their attempt.

Quote:


But anybody who thinks what is going on there is some example of a Democratic uprising supported by a huge portion of Libyans is a fucking fool who knows absolutely nothing about the history of Africa or the Mid-East.




Anybody observing the Western world come out of the dark ages might argued the same thing.  Yet here we are.

Quote:

Why we are in this fight is beyond me except to the point that Ghaddafi should have been killed long ago.




There are a lot of legitimate reasons one could argue against our involvement in Libya, but so far nobody has mentioned any of them in this thread.  I'm willing to give my buddies in Benghazi a chance, other people here have been advocating throwing them under the bus.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14159881 - 03/21/11 03:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Oh really?  They were just sitting there minding their own government business when a rabble came a knocking.




They haven't been minding their own business for 42 years.




Their business, in case you didn't know, was ruling Libya.  So far the people revolting seem only to take issue with that and not the Lockerbie thing or the general terrorism thing.
Quote:



Quote:


Everyone who is against Ghaddafi?  What kind of idiot answer is that?






Seems like a clear answer to me.




I'm against Ghaddafi.  I'm not there.  Neither are you.  It was an idiot answer.
Quote:



Quote:

And just what does large mean?  By large do you mean "noisy"?




Impossible to get exact numbers.  What's your estimate? :tongue:




Fucked if I know.  Which is why I'm not jumping all over their dicks.
Quote:



Quote:


How do you know they just don't want to supplant Ghaddafi's autocracy with one of their own?  Answer:  You don't.


 

Like I said, it remains to be seen.  Did you even read my post?




Right.  But you're backing them.
Quote:



Quote:


The bulk of the Libyan citizens, including most of the tribal leaders, appear to be mostly uninvolved.


 

How do you know that?




Have you heard anything from the tribal leaders?  Not a fucking peep.
Quote:



Quote:


The lack of clarity and quality in your response leads me to believe that you have no problem forming an opinion in an almost complete absence of knowledge. 




Are you claiming that you have more knowledge of what is going on in Libya than I do?




No.  I am claiming that we both have zero knowledge but you have no problem forming an opinion in a void.
Quote:



Quote:


I heard something like this from John Batchelor this morning:

Quote:

Richard Engel, NBC, struggle mightily to convey the fact that the rebels in Benghazi are not a democratic front, not even a coherent political front, but rather a rag-tag collection of second rate thugs with a handful of ambitious lawyers and other Francophone self-elected celebrities. The coalition is bombing to protect a marginal enterprise that enjoys no legitimacy. Am told that the rebel leaders are dominated by men who barely control their own cellphones and laptops. That the rebel leaders use cellphones is the tell. The guns are in the hands of the Cyrenaica tribals, who will not move against Q. The tribals only know how to protect their territory. This is a civil war with no end in…
By John Batchelor




I am not putting that out there as gospel truth.  And I think Ghaddafi should be assassinated. 




I'm sure there is an element of truth to that.  Not everyone wants Qaddafi out for the same reason, has the same political agenda, the same beliefs, or the same aspirations.  But they all have at least one common legitimate goal which both of us support.  The Libyans that I've been talking to in Benghazi do want democracy and even if they only make up a small portion of rebels, they believe they can pull it off, and I support their attempt.




Who is this "all" you speak of?  Like I said, not a fucking peep out of the tribal leaders.
Quote:



Quote:


But anybody who thinks what is going on there is some example of a Democratic uprising supported by a huge portion of Libyans is a fucking fool who knows absolutely nothing about the history of Africa or the Mid-East.




Anybody observing the Western world come out of the dark ages might argued the same thing.  Yet here we are.




Democracy isn't what happened there.
Quote:



Quote:

Why we are in this fight is beyond me except to the point that Ghaddafi should have been killed long ago.




There are a lot of legitimate reasons one could argue against our involvement in Libya, but so far nobody has mentioned any of them in this thread.  I'm willing to give my buddies in Benghazi a chance, other people here have been advocating throwing them under the bus.




Your buddies?  Why are they your buddies?  You don't know them at all.  Knee jerk support for any anti status quo movement is moronic.

I see no reason to help the revolt.  I see lots of reasons to assassinate Ghaddafi but none of them have a fucking thing to do with the rebels.  They can go fuck themselves, too, as far as I'm concerned.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14160203 - 03/21/11 04:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Their business, in case you didn't know, was ruling Libya.  So far the people revolting seem only to take issue with that and not the Lockerbie thing or the general terrorism thing.




You can't rule some one without also minding their business as well as your own.  How do you know they don't take issue with the terrorism thing?

Quote:

I'm against Ghaddafi.  I'm not there.  Neither are you.  It was an idiot answer.




It was an obvious answer, but an idiot answer?

Quote:

Fucked if I know.  Which is why I'm not jumping all over their dicks.




Fair enough.

Quote:


Right.  But you're backing them.




Yep.  There is a significant contingent which is pro-democracy and made up of people who I can somewhat identify with.  I back the entire revolt on their behalf.

Quote:


Have you heard anything from the tribal leaders?  Not a fucking peep.




Haven't heard any outcries from them either.

Quote:


No.  I am claiming that we both have zero knowledge but you have no problem forming an opinion in a void.




I may have more knowledge than you think.  Obviously I'm not there, but I'm not exactly in a void either.

Quote:


Who is this "all" you speak of?  Like I said, not a fucking peep out of the tribal leaders.




All=everyone who has made a peep so far.  Even his own military won't fight for him.  Who do you think he really has left on his side besides mercenaries and his son's "uber-elite special tactical recon whatever bullshit corps"?

Quote:


Democracy isn't what happened there.




Doesn't matter.

Quote:


Your buddies?  Why are they your buddies?  You don't know them at all. 





I know some of them, slightly.  Admittedly, they're all in Benghazi.

Quote:


Knee jerk support for any anti status quo movement is moronic.




I support sending Qaddafi to the bottom of a cactus-lined pit and I support the aims of at least a portion of the rebels.  In this case the status quo is pretty shitty. 

How would you propose to take out Qaddafi?  I like the idea of helping these guys do it.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14160871 - 03/21/11 07:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I have zero reason to believe that there is an improvement on the way.  ZERO.  Just like Egypt last month and Iran 30 years ago.  You all get happy and shit but as far as I can tell the next generation of leaders will suck at least as much as the previous generation.  Meet the new boss......


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: danielx]
    #14161133 - 03/21/11 07:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
why these people? what about the millions of other slaughtered innocent people who we dont help? Why here, why now?





It is often easier to help the people of a country that are trying to overthrow their own government than it is to simply march in and try to do it uninvited.

It is called "waiting for an opportunity". The powers that be in the US and EU have been waiting for this chance for 40 years.




The point of a military is to protect the citizens of its own country, thus the reason Egyptian forces refused to fire on their own people. People in the Libyan military are being executed for refusing to fire on their own people.






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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #14167555 - 03/22/11 11:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BlimeyGrimey said:
Quote:

danielx said:
why these people? what about the millions of other slaughtered innocent people who we dont help? Why here, why now?





It is often easier to help the people of a country that are trying to overthrow their own government than it is to simply march in and try to do it uninvited.

It is called "waiting for an opportunity". The powers that be in the US and EU have been waiting for this chance for 40 years.




The point of a military is to protect the citizens of its own country, thus the reason Egyptian forces refused to fire on their own people. People in the Libyan military are being executed for refusing to fire on their own people.









All the brutality in the world must not be used to justify military intervention. this following video will nail the hammer in the debate and show that we must all argue in unison against the military intervention.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhq30l_michel-chossudovski-sur-la-guerre-en-libye-s-t_news#from=embed&start=271

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: communeart]
    #14167567 - 03/22/11 11:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It is often easier to help the people of a country that are trying to overthrow their own government than it is to simply march in and try to do it uninvited.

It is called "waiting for an opportunity". The powers that be in the US and EU have been waiting for this chance for 40 years.




since the opposition force themself are opposed to the us intervention it is very important to support their will against the United States.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: communeart]
    #14167668 - 03/22/11 11:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

It is often easier to help the people of a country that are trying to overthrow their own government than it is to simply march in and try to do it uninvited.

It is called "waiting for an opportunity". The powers that be in the US and EU have been waiting for this chance for 40 years.




since the opposition force themself are opposed to the us intervention it is very important to support their will against the United States.




They are not against it.  In fact, they've been calling for it for weeks.  WTF have you been smoking?

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14167768 - 03/23/11 12:03 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:

They are not against it.  In fact, they've been calling for it for weeks.  WTF have you been smoking?




are you aware of the fact that there has been dozens of CIA run "rebellions"? All you have to do is throw money around. Even easier in this technological age. Make a few twitter accounts and you have voices.

this operation should be mighty lucrative, just how much is 143 tons of gold worth?


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: danielx]
    #14168137 - 03/23/11 01:49 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhq30l_michel-chossudovski-sur-la-guerre-en-libye-s-t_news




They are not against it.  In fact, they've been calling for it for weeks.  WTF have you been smoking?

they have never called for interventions, they have called for support,supplies etc, they have asked for a free zone as well. Remember this is only a war, our media does not know necessarily, there is also alot of rebel groups looking to seize the power after the war just like the united states is trying to push phonies little washington supported bitches into the countries around lybia.

If a few traitor to lybia called for us intervention should we support them? if the nazis try to take over lybia you wouldn't support them, so do you call gaddafi a nazi? this is the difference between you and me , i did not judge other countries for the crazy ass dictators they elected as long as it truly came from the people. Gaddafi should not be in power, but hte prolbem is that he has too much charisma and his sucessor would be named by him, and thus not as strongly a man as the man who took had the balls to take power. The constant menace of the united states is the only true responsible for all the trouble of the arab world.

Also, the tribal leaders opposed to gaddafi from the est were recognized by france and portugal as a legitimate government, this proves that the rebel forces are not a united front but rather a coalition.

Edited by communeart (03/23/11 01:55 AM)

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: communeart]
    #14184773 - 03/25/11 11:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

well, it's official. obama is a war criminal just like bush was:

http://www.libertynewsonline.com/article_301_30373.php


apparently bombing libya was a war crime, unconstitutional


i guess what president have we EVER had that WASN'T a war criminal? JESUS


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: imachavel]
    #14184822 - 03/25/11 11:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Whatever you feel about that, how is it in any way a war crime?

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14185834 - 03/26/11 08:31 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It doesn't.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14185985 - 03/26/11 09:32 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I don't get it either.

Only thing I can get from that statement is that imachavel is making up definitions of terms as he goes along.

War criminal has always had a pretty percise meaning, even if the specific requisite acts change and remain ill defined.  Bombing a country without a decleration of war has never been a war crime.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: johnm214]
    #14186424 - 03/26/11 11:44 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Using dictionary definitions of things = slavery.

Making up your own definitions = socialism.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #14186457 - 03/26/11 11:52 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe if we're lucky President Empty Pants will start bombing Syria.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14186514 - 03/26/11 12:09 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)



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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: danielx]
    #14189258 - 03/26/11 09:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:

They are not against it.  In fact, they've been calling for it for weeks.  WTF have you been smoking?




are you aware of the fact that there has been dozens of CIA run "rebellions"? All you have to do is throw money around. Even easier in this technological age. Make a few twitter accounts and you have voices.

this operation should be mighty lucrative, just how much is 143 tons of gold worth?




i wonder if western intelligence even needs to go to the trouble of organizing these uprisings anymore.  it seems like you can just show a picture on the news of some brown people shaking their fists and add whatever caption you want and it will be taken as truth.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #14190032 - 03/27/11 01:05 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Using dictionary definitions of things = slavery.

Making up your own definitions = socialism.





oh i guess i'm a socialist now. well war is a crime, murdering people is a crime. but i'm not talking of politically correct definitions.

you guys obviously didn't read the article. it says that he decided to go ahead with the air strike without congress approval, which is unconstitutional, so therefore by definition he would be a war criminal.


and obviously i don't know how that flies myself, i mean war is a crime in itself, but i'm just stating what should be politically correct


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: imachavel]
    #14191427 - 03/27/11 10:29 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Are you on drugs?

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: imachavel]
    #14191732 - 03/27/11 11:37 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:


you guys obviously didn't read the article. it says that he decided to go ahead with the air strike without congress approval, which is unconstitutional, so therefore by definition he would be a war criminal.


and obviously i don't know how that flies myself, i mean war is a crime in itself, but i'm just stating what should be politically correct




I am familar with the argument- it is not novel.  Yes, I did look at the article.

We've allready challenged your claim that to go war with constitutional justification is a war crime, your repeated declaration is not any more convincing than the first (though I don't think such acts as obama did are unconstitutional anyways).

As I said: the laws and customs of war are relatively clearly defined and they have nothing to do with what the particular beligerant's domestic law allows or does not allow.

The prototypical case of executing POW's and civilians in WWII was generally allowed by the law of the occupied countries and the beligerant's government.  This has nothing to do with anything.  Did the slaughter of French civilians not constitute a war crime because the Vichy French government helped carry it out pursuant to its legal system?  Did the German participation in such as well not constitute a war crime because their legal system accepted such acts as lawful, and in fact authorized them?  Obviously note.

A war crime is an act which violates the laws and customs of war, in part set out in treaties: such things include aggressive wars for territorial expansion/ seizure of wealth, executing POW's and surrendering combatants, targeting civilians, and so forth.  Whether the beligerant's country condoned the acts or not is immaterial.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: johnm214]
    #14201558 - 03/29/11 12:30 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

My question is this, apparently NATO was given the go ahead to enforce the "no fly zone", when was the last time a pilot from Gaddafi's air force attempted a sortie? Obamas latest statements proclaiming we are not attempting to overthrow the current regime through the implementation of military intervention is pure bullshit.

We no longer are inforcing a no fly zone, but are providing tactical air to ground offensive capabilities to take out personnel as well as equipment. We are doing nothing more than providing offensive capabilities for the rebels. Of course we are attempting to overthrow ghadaffi through military means. We want and are succeeding in helping to initiate a civil war in a sovereign nation by arming rebels we know nothing about. All this at yet another huge expense to the american taxpayer. Just wait until the first civilian is accidentally killed by a missile. All the billions we will spend to help these "rebels" out will pay no dividends with the exception of creating a few dozen more shoe bombers.

Amazing how those in congress want to cut SS benefits, road construction, job training, and nearly every other program under the guise of fiscal responsibility, and of course the deficit. Where are the concerns now that it cost us 60 million for the downed jet, cruise missiles-over 1.5 million PER MISSILE, cost to fly the jets-more than 10 grand per hour, we had three b2 bombers fly 25 hour round trip bombing missions, the cost 750 thousand dollars plus another 1.3 million for the 45 JDAMS they dropped, and this for just one mission, of course the price continues to skyrocket. Yep its the teachers unions that are going to financially ruin this country. The cost of hypocrisy=priceless.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Therian]
    #14202303 - 03/29/11 04:52 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> when was the last time a pilot from Gaddafi's air force attempted a sortie?

I don't know that they have anything left that flies.  Part of "enforcing a no fly zone" is destroying anything that can fly.

> Amazing how those in congress ... Where are the concerns now that it cost

Congress was not consulted.

> The cost of hypocrisy=priceless.

Change!  Yes we can!  :rolleyes:


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Therian]
    #14202443 - 03/29/11 06:22 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Therian said:
My question is this, apparently NATO was given the go ahead to enforce the "no fly zone", when was the last time a pilot from Gaddafi's air force attempted a sortie?




March 24th.

While the headlines screamed that the plane was shot down, a reading of the articles reveal it was destroyed by a "air to ground" missile, after it had landed.


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14203636 - 03/29/11 01:00 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I didn't see this when it broke. Two of the first things the rebels did was start an oil company and a central bank. Cha-ching!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-21/libyan-rebel-council-sets-up-oil-company-to-replace-qaddafi-s.html


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: imachavel]
    #14208990 - 03/30/11 11:24 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
well, it's official. obama is a war criminal just like bush was:

http://www.libertynewsonline.com/article_301_30373.php


apparently bombing libya was a war crime, unconstitutional


i guess what president have we EVER had that WASN'T a war criminal? JESUS




The term war criminal is laughable.  Any country with enough power can do what it wants as long as the leader and by proxy its people support it.  War criminals are simply people that lost and the winners make an example of.  No one's hands are clean.  The few that are close have no say in international politics and are at the whims of others.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: MelloRed]
    #14210988 - 03/30/11 06:01 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MelloRed said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
well, it's official. obama is a war criminal just like bush was:

http://www.libertynewsonline.com/article_301_30373.php


apparently bombing libya was a war crime, unconstitutional


i guess what president have we EVER had that WASN'T a war criminal? JESUS




The term war criminal is laughable.  Any country with enough power can do what it wants as long as the leader and by proxy its people support it.  War criminals are simply people that lost and the winners make an example of.  No one's hands are clean.  The few that are close have no say in international politics and are at the whims of others.




So says you.  What justification do you have for saying these things "no one's hands are clean" et cet?

What does the fact that any country with enough power can do what it wants have to do with whether the "term war criminal is laughable?"

Seems a pretty useful concept to me, and a helpful distinction to minimize harmful conduct unrelated to legitimate interests of the belligerents.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: johnm214]
    #14212730 - 03/31/11 12:00 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm confused. Obama stated we are doing nothing more than enforcing a no fly zone to prevent the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians. He stated we will have no American soldiers on the ground, our role would be finished in days, not weeks, and we are not looking to overthrow the Gadaffi regime through military intervention.

I call bullshit on each and every one of that lying negros statements.

1. Sorties are no longer being carried out by the Libyan air force. We are not preventing civilian casualties. We are protecting and attempting to aid rebels to violently overtake their government. Since when are armed rebels "innocent civilians?" You drive around your town with rpg's and automatic machine guns engaging the military in armed combat and see what happens to you. What? how dare the oppressive corrupt regimes military use tanks and enlisted men to kill innocent civilians. Shall I post pics of Waco?

Now Obama has stated that he will not rule out sending in special forces to aid the rebels, most likely with some sort of recon. I can absolutely guarantee you my 27 virgins that we already have boots on the ground there. Since when are special forces not american soldiers that he stated would not set foot in Libya?

With the ill trained rebels in full retreat or what is now being called a stalemate, our role will become protracted. The only way to prevent this and have Obama save even a small amount of face is to take on Gaddafi's military forces more directly, not just preventing them from fighting armed rebels attempting to overthrow a sovereign nation. This means taking out army personnel, providing close air support, and of course attempting to take over the country by the use of force directly, not just by proxy.

I guarantee you that if we start to see AC-130's and Apaches being deployed there, their mission  most definitely will not be one of enforcing a no fly zone. We will be at war with Libya plain and simple. We will be arming "warlords" and most likely many terrorists. Warlords, really? WTF is this tenth century feudal Japan? These primitive Islamic fundamentalist jihad assholes need to fight and finance their own wars, the last time we armed these types they were called the Taliban, and I recall that didn't work out all that well for us. Can't afford to pay the firefighters in my county, that god we got the cash for this. Who do you think is going to be financially responsible for "rebuilding" this nation when all is said and done?

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