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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14156846 - 03/20/11 10:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
Chuang asked, "would it be wrong to do so?"

Rather, ask yourself: is it wrongheaded to rationalize and accept lobbing missiles at people from hundreds of miles away and dropping bombs on people from thousands of feet?

Truly, are there crimes that justify these?




Yes.  What difference does it make if an aggressors are stopped from thousands of feet, hundreds of miles away, or face to face?

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14156872 - 03/20/11 10:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Indian givers..


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14156884 - 03/20/11 10:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The distance enables and emphasizes the inhumanity.  Put a switch, a trigger, a lever, a button, or a distance between a man and his victims and the man is empowered by his nature to commit violence and cruelty.

EDIT: The same distance empowers you to accept it.


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Edited by Not Quite Social (03/20/11 10:50 PM)

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14156939 - 03/20/11 10:55 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Wrong is either flatout wrong or morality is twisted to serve our amoral personal and tribal needs and desires.  I choose to have fixed standards, such as killing people is wrong.  This is not, as in this case, a comfortable easy belief, as you suggested.  I have compassion for Gaddafi's victims.  You would have me sanction murder for them?  Compassion and murder are two distinctly different things that, amazingly, get confused by people who have no fixed morality.   


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Edited by Not Quite Social (03/20/11 11:05 PM)

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14156980 - 03/20/11 11:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
Wrong is either flatout wrong or morality is twisted to serve our amoral personal and tribal needs and desires.  I choose to have fixed standards, such as killing people is wrong.




What if killing one person prevents the killing of two people?

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14157045 - 03/20/11 11:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Wrong is wrong.  Of course, day to day stuff is not that simple but when it comes to missiles and bombs it's so obvious I get very frustrated that others don't see it.


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Edited by Not Quite Social (03/20/11 11:22 PM)

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14157146 - 03/20/11 11:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
The distance enables and emphasizes the inhumanity.  Put a switch, a trigger, a lever, a button, or a distance between a man and his victims and the man is empowered by his nature to commit violence and cruelty.

EDIT: The same distance empowers you to accept it.




You call it inhumanity, I call it humanity.  Would you stand by idly while your neighbor is assaulted if you had the ability to stop it? 

Perhaps it's the distance that empowers you to ignore it.

Killing people sucks, by whatever the method, but sometimes prevents a greater wrong.  In the case that the decision has been made to kill, it makes no difference from where you choose to carry out the task except as a matter of practicality.

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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14157192 - 03/20/11 11:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It does make a difference.  We're socialized to kill.  We don distictive constumes and role play something we call soldiers, and, thereby, we're magically morally licensed to kill.  We empower our evil nature by ritually disassociate ourselves from the evil acts we commit.  Like I said, when you rationalize and twist morality like this it ceases to serve the common good, it becomes evil on behalf of the deluded individual and his tribe.

Anyway, I can see you are stuck in your way of thinking.  There are common levels, plateaus, at which people stop thinking.  Enjoy the view there.  I'm sure it's no more or less impotent than my vantage.  Good night.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14158988 - 03/21/11 12:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
Chuang asked, "would it be wrong to do so?"

Rather, ask yourself: is it wrongheaded to rationalize and accept lobbing missiles at people from hundreds of miles away and dropping bombs on people from thousands of feet?

Truly, are there crimes that justify these?




Yes.  What difference does it make if an aggressors are stopped from thousands of feet, hundreds of miles away, or face to face?



Just exactly who do you suppose are the aggressors?  Who are these rebels?  What do they stand for?  What gives anybody the idea that they are an improvement over Ghaddafi (not that that would take much but still)?


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14159479 - 03/21/11 02:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Just exactly who do you suppose are the aggressors? 





Qaddafi and his minions.

Quote:

Who are these rebels?




Everyone who is against Qaddafi, which seems to be a large chunk of the Libyan population. 

Quote:

What do they stand for?




Right now, publicly, they stand for not Qaddafi.  But generally they would like to be free of autocracy and have some degree of self-determination. 

Quote:

What gives anybody the idea that they are an improvement over Ghaddafi (not that that would take much but still)?




That remains to be seen.  But certainly the "leaders" which have taken on a public face haven't given any indication that they are anything like Qaddafi.  Right now they're a loose coalition, if you can even call it that, with very little coordination and communication amongst themselves, so it'd be pretty hard to label them all with one stroke.  It seems to me that they're simply the bulk of Libyan citizens, nearly every one of which probably has some beef or another with Qaddafi.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14159582 - 03/21/11 02:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Just exactly who do you suppose are the aggressors? 





Qaddafi and his minions.




Oh really?  They were just sitting there minding their own government business when a rabble came a knocking.
Quote:



Quote:

Who are these rebels?




Everyone who is against Qaddafi, which seems to be a large chunk of the Libyan population.




Everyone who is against Ghaddafi?  What kind of idiot answer is that?  And just what does large mean?  By large do you mean "noisy"?
Quote:


Quote:

What do they stand for?




Right now, publicly, they stand for not Qaddafi.  But generally they would like to be free of autocracy and have some degree of self-determination.




How do you know they just don't want to supplant Ghaddafi's autocracy with one of their own?  Answer:  You don't.
Quote:

 

Quote:

What gives anybody the idea that they are an improvement over Ghaddafi (not that that would take much but still)?




That remains to be seen.  But certainly the "leaders" which have taken on a public face haven't given any indication that they are anything like Qaddafi.  Right now they're a loose coalition, if you can even call it that, with very little coordination and communication amongst themselves, so it'd be pretty hard to label them all with one stroke.  It seems to me that they're simply the bulk of Libyan citizens, nearly every one of which probably has some beef or another with Qaddafi.




The bulk of the Libyan citizens, including most of the tribal leaders, appear to be mostly uninvolved.

The lack of clarity and quality in your response leads me to believe that you have no problem forming an opinion in an almost complete absence of knowledge.  I heard something like this from John Batchelor this morning:

Quote:

Richard Engel, NBC, struggle mightily to convey the fact that the rebels in Benghazi are not a democratic front, not even a coherent political front, but rather a rag-tag collection of second rate thugs with a handful of ambitious lawyers and other Francophone self-elected celebrities. The coalition is bombing to protect a marginal enterprise that enjoys no legitimacy. Am told that the rebel leaders are dominated by men who barely control their own cellphones and laptops. That the rebel leaders use cellphones is the tell. The guns are in the hands of the Cyrenaica tribals, who will not move against Q. The tribals only know how to protect their territory. This is a civil war with no end in…
By John Batchelor




I am not putting that out there as gospel truth.  And I think Ghaddafi should be assassinated.  But anybody who thinks what is going on there is some example of a Democratic uprising supported by a huge portion of Libyans is a fucking fool who knows absolutely nothing about the history of Africa or the Mid-East.  Why we are in this fight is beyond me except to the point that Ghaddafi should have been killed long ago.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14159790 - 03/21/11 03:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Oh really?  They were just sitting there minding their own government business when a rabble came a knocking.




They haven't been minding their own business for 42 years.

Quote:


Everyone who is against Ghaddafi?  What kind of idiot answer is that?






Seems like a clear answer to me.

Quote:

And just what does large mean?  By large do you mean "noisy"?




Impossible to get exact numbers.  What's your estimate? :tongue:

Quote:


How do you know they just don't want to supplant Ghaddafi's autocracy with one of their own?  Answer:  You don't.


 

Like I said, it remains to be seen.  Did you even read my post?

Quote:


The bulk of the Libyan citizens, including most of the tribal leaders, appear to be mostly uninvolved.


 

How do you know that?

Quote:


The lack of clarity and quality in your response leads me to believe that you have no problem forming an opinion in an almost complete absence of knowledge. 




Are you claiming that you have more knowledge of what is going on in Libya than I do?

Quote:


I heard something like this from John Batchelor this morning:

Quote:

Richard Engel, NBC, struggle mightily to convey the fact that the rebels in Benghazi are not a democratic front, not even a coherent political front, but rather a rag-tag collection of second rate thugs with a handful of ambitious lawyers and other Francophone self-elected celebrities. The coalition is bombing to protect a marginal enterprise that enjoys no legitimacy. Am told that the rebel leaders are dominated by men who barely control their own cellphones and laptops. That the rebel leaders use cellphones is the tell. The guns are in the hands of the Cyrenaica tribals, who will not move against Q. The tribals only know how to protect their territory. This is a civil war with no end in…
By John Batchelor




I am not putting that out there as gospel truth.  And I think Ghaddafi should be assassinated. 




I'm sure there is an element of truth to that.  Not everyone wants Qaddafi out for the same reason, has the same political agenda, the same beliefs, or the same aspirations.  But they all have at least one common legitimate goal which both of us support.  The Libyans that I've been talking to in Benghazi do want democracy and even if they only make up a small portion of rebels, they believe they can pull it off, and I support their attempt.

Quote:


But anybody who thinks what is going on there is some example of a Democratic uprising supported by a huge portion of Libyans is a fucking fool who knows absolutely nothing about the history of Africa or the Mid-East.




Anybody observing the Western world come out of the dark ages might argued the same thing.  Yet here we are.

Quote:

Why we are in this fight is beyond me except to the point that Ghaddafi should have been killed long ago.




There are a lot of legitimate reasons one could argue against our involvement in Libya, but so far nobody has mentioned any of them in this thread.  I'm willing to give my buddies in Benghazi a chance, other people here have been advocating throwing them under the bus.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14159881 - 03/21/11 03:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Oh really?  They were just sitting there minding their own government business when a rabble came a knocking.




They haven't been minding their own business for 42 years.




Their business, in case you didn't know, was ruling Libya.  So far the people revolting seem only to take issue with that and not the Lockerbie thing or the general terrorism thing.
Quote:



Quote:


Everyone who is against Ghaddafi?  What kind of idiot answer is that?






Seems like a clear answer to me.




I'm against Ghaddafi.  I'm not there.  Neither are you.  It was an idiot answer.
Quote:



Quote:

And just what does large mean?  By large do you mean "noisy"?




Impossible to get exact numbers.  What's your estimate? :tongue:




Fucked if I know.  Which is why I'm not jumping all over their dicks.
Quote:



Quote:


How do you know they just don't want to supplant Ghaddafi's autocracy with one of their own?  Answer:  You don't.


 

Like I said, it remains to be seen.  Did you even read my post?




Right.  But you're backing them.
Quote:



Quote:


The bulk of the Libyan citizens, including most of the tribal leaders, appear to be mostly uninvolved.


 

How do you know that?




Have you heard anything from the tribal leaders?  Not a fucking peep.
Quote:



Quote:


The lack of clarity and quality in your response leads me to believe that you have no problem forming an opinion in an almost complete absence of knowledge. 




Are you claiming that you have more knowledge of what is going on in Libya than I do?




No.  I am claiming that we both have zero knowledge but you have no problem forming an opinion in a void.
Quote:



Quote:


I heard something like this from John Batchelor this morning:

Quote:

Richard Engel, NBC, struggle mightily to convey the fact that the rebels in Benghazi are not a democratic front, not even a coherent political front, but rather a rag-tag collection of second rate thugs with a handful of ambitious lawyers and other Francophone self-elected celebrities. The coalition is bombing to protect a marginal enterprise that enjoys no legitimacy. Am told that the rebel leaders are dominated by men who barely control their own cellphones and laptops. That the rebel leaders use cellphones is the tell. The guns are in the hands of the Cyrenaica tribals, who will not move against Q. The tribals only know how to protect their territory. This is a civil war with no end in…
By John Batchelor




I am not putting that out there as gospel truth.  And I think Ghaddafi should be assassinated. 




I'm sure there is an element of truth to that.  Not everyone wants Qaddafi out for the same reason, has the same political agenda, the same beliefs, or the same aspirations.  But they all have at least one common legitimate goal which both of us support.  The Libyans that I've been talking to in Benghazi do want democracy and even if they only make up a small portion of rebels, they believe they can pull it off, and I support their attempt.




Who is this "all" you speak of?  Like I said, not a fucking peep out of the tribal leaders.
Quote:



Quote:


But anybody who thinks what is going on there is some example of a Democratic uprising supported by a huge portion of Libyans is a fucking fool who knows absolutely nothing about the history of Africa or the Mid-East.




Anybody observing the Western world come out of the dark ages might argued the same thing.  Yet here we are.




Democracy isn't what happened there.
Quote:



Quote:

Why we are in this fight is beyond me except to the point that Ghaddafi should have been killed long ago.




There are a lot of legitimate reasons one could argue against our involvement in Libya, but so far nobody has mentioned any of them in this thread.  I'm willing to give my buddies in Benghazi a chance, other people here have been advocating throwing them under the bus.




Your buddies?  Why are they your buddies?  You don't know them at all.  Knee jerk support for any anti status quo movement is moronic.

I see no reason to help the revolt.  I see lots of reasons to assassinate Ghaddafi but none of them have a fucking thing to do with the rebels.  They can go fuck themselves, too, as far as I'm concerned.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14160203 - 03/21/11 04:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Their business, in case you didn't know, was ruling Libya.  So far the people revolting seem only to take issue with that and not the Lockerbie thing or the general terrorism thing.




You can't rule some one without also minding their business as well as your own.  How do you know they don't take issue with the terrorism thing?

Quote:

I'm against Ghaddafi.  I'm not there.  Neither are you.  It was an idiot answer.




It was an obvious answer, but an idiot answer?

Quote:

Fucked if I know.  Which is why I'm not jumping all over their dicks.




Fair enough.

Quote:


Right.  But you're backing them.




Yep.  There is a significant contingent which is pro-democracy and made up of people who I can somewhat identify with.  I back the entire revolt on their behalf.

Quote:


Have you heard anything from the tribal leaders?  Not a fucking peep.




Haven't heard any outcries from them either.

Quote:


No.  I am claiming that we both have zero knowledge but you have no problem forming an opinion in a void.




I may have more knowledge than you think.  Obviously I'm not there, but I'm not exactly in a void either.

Quote:


Who is this "all" you speak of?  Like I said, not a fucking peep out of the tribal leaders.




All=everyone who has made a peep so far.  Even his own military won't fight for him.  Who do you think he really has left on his side besides mercenaries and his son's "uber-elite special tactical recon whatever bullshit corps"?

Quote:


Democracy isn't what happened there.




Doesn't matter.

Quote:


Your buddies?  Why are they your buddies?  You don't know them at all. 





I know some of them, slightly.  Admittedly, they're all in Benghazi.

Quote:


Knee jerk support for any anti status quo movement is moronic.




I support sending Qaddafi to the bottom of a cactus-lined pit and I support the aims of at least a portion of the rebels.  In this case the status quo is pretty shitty. 

How would you propose to take out Qaddafi?  I like the idea of helping these guys do it.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14160871 - 03/21/11 07:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I have zero reason to believe that there is an improvement on the way.  ZERO.  Just like Egypt last month and Iran 30 years ago.  You all get happy and shit but as far as I can tell the next generation of leaders will suck at least as much as the previous generation.  Meet the new boss......


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: danielx]
    #14161133 - 03/21/11 07:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

danielx said:
why these people? what about the millions of other slaughtered innocent people who we dont help? Why here, why now?





It is often easier to help the people of a country that are trying to overthrow their own government than it is to simply march in and try to do it uninvited.

It is called "waiting for an opportunity". The powers that be in the US and EU have been waiting for this chance for 40 years.




The point of a military is to protect the citizens of its own country, thus the reason Egyptian forces refused to fire on their own people. People in the Libyan military are being executed for refusing to fire on their own people.






--------------------
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Edited by BlimeyGrimey (03/21/11 08:07 PM)

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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #14167555 - 03/22/11 11:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BlimeyGrimey said:
Quote:

danielx said:
why these people? what about the millions of other slaughtered innocent people who we dont help? Why here, why now?





It is often easier to help the people of a country that are trying to overthrow their own government than it is to simply march in and try to do it uninvited.

It is called "waiting for an opportunity". The powers that be in the US and EU have been waiting for this chance for 40 years.




The point of a military is to protect the citizens of its own country, thus the reason Egyptian forces refused to fire on their own people. People in the Libyan military are being executed for refusing to fire on their own people.









All the brutality in the world must not be used to justify military intervention. this following video will nail the hammer in the debate and show that we must all argue in unison against the military intervention.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhq30l_michel-chossudovski-sur-la-guerre-en-libye-s-t_news#from=embed&start=271

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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: communeart]
    #14167567 - 03/22/11 11:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It is often easier to help the people of a country that are trying to overthrow their own government than it is to simply march in and try to do it uninvited.

It is called "waiting for an opportunity". The powers that be in the US and EU have been waiting for this chance for 40 years.




since the opposition force themself are opposed to the us intervention it is very important to support their will against the United States.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: communeart]
    #14167668 - 03/22/11 11:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

It is often easier to help the people of a country that are trying to overthrow their own government than it is to simply march in and try to do it uninvited.

It is called "waiting for an opportunity". The powers that be in the US and EU have been waiting for this chance for 40 years.




since the opposition force themself are opposed to the us intervention it is very important to support their will against the United States.




They are not against it.  In fact, they've been calling for it for weeks.  WTF have you been smoking?

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Invisibledanielx
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14167768 - 03/23/11 12:03 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:

They are not against it.  In fact, they've been calling for it for weeks.  WTF have you been smoking?




are you aware of the fact that there has been dozens of CIA run "rebellions"? All you have to do is throw money around. Even easier in this technological age. Make a few twitter accounts and you have voices.

this operation should be mighty lucrative, just how much is 143 tons of gold worth?


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Long live kratom :kratom:

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