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Madtowntripper
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UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya
#14138793 - 03/17/11 07:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I can't, for the life of me, figure this one out.
The Libyan Gov't has more or less won. They've recaptured all the rebel territory with the exception of one city, the rebel military forces are collapsed and in disarray, and the government has almost completely reasserted it's authority.
And NOW military action is authorized? It makes no sense to me at all.
The time to do this was two weeks ago, when a show of any kind of interest from the outside world could have spelled the end of Ghadaffi.
This is way too late.
Quote:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/17/libya.civil.war/index.html?hpt=T1
United Nations (CNN) -- Joyous Libyan rebels in Benghazi erupted with fireworks and gunfire after the U.N. Security Council voted Thursday evening to impose a no-fly zone and "all necessary measures" to protect civilians.
The opposition, with devoted but largely untrained and underequipped units, has suffered military setbacks this week. It has said such international action was necessary for it to have any chance of thwarting Moammar Gadhafi's imminent assault on the rebel stronghold.
"We're hoping and praying that the United Nations will come up with a very firm and very fast resolution and they will enforce it immediately," said Ahmed El-Gallal, a senior opposition coordinator, before the vote.
"We should not arrive too late," French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said at the U.N.
The resolution was approved with 10 votes, including those of the United States and the United Kingdom.
There were no opposing votes on the 15-member council, but China, Russia, Germany, India and Brazil abstained. Germany said it was concerned about a protracted military conflict.
U.N. member states can "take all necessary measures ... to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force," according to the resolution.
It was not immediately clear just how the international military operation and possible strikes against the Libyan military would unfold. The no-fly zone prohibits Libya's air forces from entering certain zones within the country.
Libyan Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Kaim, speaking in Tripoli, told reporters after the vote that the country will safeguard civilians and its territorial integrity.
He called on the international community to send a fact-finding missing to the African nation, but not lend material support to rebels.
A few dozen pro-Gadhafi supporters chanted, "Down with the U.N. Down with Britain. Down with the United States."
The U.S. military does not view a no-fly zone as sufficient to stopping Gadhafi.
Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz told a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on Thursday that establishing such a zone "would not be sufficient" to stop the gains made by Gadhafi.
Schwartz told the committee that establishing a no-fly zone would take "upwards of a week."
Gadhafi's son, Saadi, told CNN Thursday evening that troops will change their tactics and take up positions around Benghazi Saturday or Sunday and assist people fleeing from the city.
The younger Gadhafi said there will be no large-scale assault. Instead police and anti-terrorism units will be sent into the rebel stronghold to disarm the opposition. Unspecified humanitarian groups can help with the exodus of civilians from Benghazi, Saadi Gadhafi said.
U.S. military officials have said that a no-fly zone would typically be enforced by fighter jets whose speed and altitude make it difficult to target Gadhafi's helicopters and that it would not halt the heavy artillery the regime is using on the ground.
The resolution condemns the "gross and systematic violation of human rights, including arbitrary detentions, enforced disappearances, torture and summary executions." It details enforcement of an arms embargo against Libya, the freezing of assets and a ban on certain flights.
"The United States stands with the Libyan people in support of their universal rights," said U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice.
The resolution deplores the use of mercenaries by Libyan authorities, expresses concern about the safety of foreign nationals and demands an immediate cease-fire. Kaim said the Gadhafi government supports a cease-fire, but is working out certain details.
The Arab League's U.N. ambassador, Yahya Mahmassani, said two Arab countries would take part in a no-fly zone operation, but he was not sure which two.
British Foreign Secretary William Hague said the U.N. vote shows the need for Libyan citizens "to have a more representative government."
Earlier Thursday, Libyan state TV said that the rebel capital of Benghazi would soon come under attack.
Gadhafi said that his forces would enter Benghazi to rid the city of those "traitors" and that his forces will search everyone for weapons. He added that his forces gave amnesty to those who gave up their weapons in the city of Ajdabiya. "We will not allow further bloodshed among Libyans," Gadhafi said.
"Search for the traitors, for the fanatics. Show them no mercy. We will look for them behind every wall," Gadhafi said. "This farce cannot go on."
There were air strikes on Benghazi's airport Thursday, with three blasts hitting the site about 30 kilometers (about 18 miles) outside the city.
The opposition has been using the airport to launch its own air strikes, using a handful of jets that rebels have managed to get off the ground, opposition leaders said.
It is not clear that Gadhafi's ground forces are actually within striking range of Benghazi, but they have been fighting their way in that direction for several days.
State TV claimed Thursday that Gadhafi's forces were in control of Ajdabiya, on the road to Benghazi, a claim disputed by opposition leaders.
El-Gallal, speaking from eastern Libya, said "morale is high" and people do not want to leave strongholds because Gadhafi "is willing to kill everybody here."
The government forces have taken control of the eastern and western gates to the city and are trying to breach the inside, opposition leaders said. The opposition says it controls the southern entrance.
The opposition says it has a handful of jets that are no match with Gadhafi's superior air power and a pair of Russian-made "Hind" attack helicopters.
Ajdabiya is the last major point between pro-government forces and Benghazi. If it is retaken by pro-Gadhafi forces, it would give access to roads leading to the heart of the opposition's base.
In remarks to the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee, William Burns, the under secretary for political affairs at the State Department, said Gadhafi's forces are only about 160 kilometers outside Benghazi.
"They've made advances, taking full advantage of their overwhelming military superiority in military firepower," Burns said.
He expressed fear that Gadhafi, now isolated by the world community, could turn to terrorism again.
"I think there is also a very real danger that if Gadhafi is successful on the ground, that you will also face a number of other considerable risks as well: The danger of him returning to terrorism and violent extremism himself, the dangers of the turmoil that he could help create at a critical moment elsewhere in the region," Burns told the committee.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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despisedicon
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
#14139210 - 03/17/11 08:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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The French and British and going to lead. They don't need any help from the USA. The French have a air base in Chad,and strong military. At least the UN didn't wait until the rebels got crushed. 
This article raises an important point upon its conclusion. Gaddafi would probably do just that. Although, it's a no win situation for everyone. Killing this idiot isn't going to make everything stable. Waring tribes will fight for his position.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. and it ain't over until it's over.
Edited by despisedicon (03/17/11 08:29 PM)
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Madtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: despisedicon]
#14139320 - 03/17/11 08:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think US involvement will be pretty heavy.
The last time the French and the British tried to cooperate on anything militarily, it was on capturing the Suez canal, and they fucked it all up.
And they did pretty much wait until the rebels were crushed. Listen, two weeks ago they held the entire country except for Triopli and they were marching there.
Now they've lost absolutely everything except for Benghazi, and that is quickly being surrounded.
It's a pretty hopeless situation, in my opinion.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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argg
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
#14139355 - 03/17/11 08:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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with the rebs controlling everything at first until pushed back they might do well if air cover for the enemy is removed. I would not put it past a few people in the UN to help them out a bit with a few bombs on the opposing forces that are beyond the scope of just knocking out the anti aircraft systems. War sucks but this will be interesting to see it play out compared to the relatively peaceful changes in power that have happened so far.
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Grav


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: argg]
#14140084 - 03/17/11 10:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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was there ever a debate? of course not. just waiting for a majority of people to swallow the idea that it's something that needs to happen. let the media spin Libya for a couple months and we're good to go. same bullshit different day.
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Madtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
#14140187 - 03/17/11 10:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Wait, so what's your angle?
The Libyan rebels have been asking for help for weeks now.
Do you not believe that? Or are you just saying it's not our place?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zappaisgod
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
#14142097 - 03/18/11 08:30 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grav said: was there ever a debate? of course not. just waiting for a majority of people to swallow the idea that it's something that needs to happen. let the media spin Libya for a couple months and we're good to go. same bullshit different day.
And once again someone falls into the trap of believing that the People were ever consulted or that their opinion either matters or is in any way at all informed or influential. The media doesn't have to spin anything to the People because nobody cares what the People think. For good reason, too, I might add.
What would you do?
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Grav


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
#14142168 - 03/18/11 08:53 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Wait, so what's your angle?
The Libyan rebels have been asking for help for weeks now.
Do you not believe that? Or are you just saying it's not our place?
no i don't believe that. do you?
and no it is not our place.
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Madtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
#14142317 - 03/18/11 09:40 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grav said:
Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Wait, so what's your angle?
The Libyan rebels have been asking for help for weeks now.
Do you not believe that? Or are you just saying it's not our place?
no i don't believe that. do you?
and no it is not our place.
Yes, I absolutely believe it.
Listen, it's being reported everywhere. There are plenty of news sources out there that are diametrically opposed to one another. That have no reason to cooperate on any kind of news white-out. When the New York Times, Al-Jazeera, The Jerusalem Post, ITAR-TASS, and the Beijing Post all same the damn thing, that is some kind of credible consensus, don't ya think?
And yes, I do think it is our place. I'm not so arrogant as to think that we are too good to stop the slaughter of innocent people when the opportunity presents itself.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Icelander
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
#14142351 - 03/18/11 09:52 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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The UN as it is is a completely worthless organization. I think we should do something worthwhile with our military and destroy their clubhouse.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Madtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Icelander]
#14142403 - 03/18/11 10:09 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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I am almost completely agreed.
I find it hard to suppress my utopian tendencies that have me believing that a cooperative, one-world government is the only eventual hope for humanity, but it isn't hard to see that the UN is not in any way what I am looking for.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zappaisgod
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Icelander]
#14142438 - 03/18/11 10:19 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: The UN as it is is a completely worthless organization. I think we should do something worthwhile with our military and destroy their clubhouse.
I think it would make a lovely apartment building with fancy retail space.
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Grav


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
#14143052 - 03/18/11 12:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said:
Quote:
Grav said:
Quote:
Madtowntripper said: Wait, so what's your angle?
The Libyan rebels have been asking for help for weeks now.
Do you not believe that? Or are you just saying it's not our place?
no i don't believe that. do you?
and no it is not our place.
Yes, I absolutely believe it.
Listen, it's being reported everywhere. There are plenty of news sources out there that are diametrically opposed to one another. That have no reason to cooperate on any kind of news white-out. When the New York Times, Al-Jazeera, The Jerusalem Post, ITAR-TASS, and the Beijing Post all same the damn thing, that is some kind of credible consensus, don't ya think?
absolutely not. why assume any of them are telling you the truth?
Quote:
And yes, I do think it is our place. I'm not so arrogant as to think that we are too good to stop the slaughter of innocent people when the opportunity presents itself.
you really think the UN is concerned with saving innocent lives?
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Madtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
#14143080 - 03/18/11 12:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grav said: absolutely not. why assume any of them are telling you the truth?
Quote:
And yes, I do think it is our place. I'm not so arrogant as to think that we are too good to stop the slaughter of innocent people when the opportunity presents itself.
you really think the UN is concerned with saving innocent lives?
You're not assuming any of them are telling you the truth. You are using the available information to decide what YOU think the truth is. Listen, the universe is a vast place and it is impossible for anyone to directly observe even a tiny fraction of the things taking place. The fact that you can't see something happening with your own eyes is no reason to completely discount it.
I'm sure it's cool to be counter-cultural and think the all news is for old people and that world events are just a giant sink-hole of misinformation, but at some point it just becomes kind of sad and pathetic to not believe anything. There are people there on the ground, thousands of them, that you can watch in videos and read on twitter and see interviewed on the news and read their stories in the newspaper and talk to yourself on videocasts.
If you're not going to believe any of them, you might as well just say that you don't believe in Libya, or that you believe all Libyans are fanciful creatures with the ears of cats and tails like pigs.
I'm not even sure how you could begin to formulate that its a vast conspiracy.
And while I don't think that is the UN's main mission, I think in this case it is. It's pretty hard to think of another one, isn't it?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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Grav


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Madtowntripper]
#14143656 - 03/18/11 02:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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you're just seeing a bunch of images of the Libyan people and then the media is interpreting for you the story of what is happening there, who the villains are, the good guys, and proposed solutions. you're being sold a war through your emotions and desire to help innocent people. you think a military invasion is going to make people's lives better?
as for your tweets and blogs, etc. from people on the ground, you might find this article interesting.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8388603/US-military-creates-fake-online-personas.html
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Madtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
#14143704 - 03/18/11 03:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Dude, you're so anti-establishment that you have lost the ability to reason.
Tell me what YOU think is happening there.
Or do you stand by the fact that it's impossible to know anything that you can't see yourself.
Is it fair to believe that...
A) You think Ghadaffi is a good person?
b) That people who don't think Ghadaffi is a good person are wrong?
c) That this rebellion against Ghadaffi is bad?
and that...
d) UN intervention is some kind of ploy to invade Libya?
Or do we have to start at a more basic point like, "Do you believe in Libya and/or Ghadaffi?" or "Do you believe that a rebellion is actually happening?"
Listen, it just doesn't make sense. I have friends who are Libyan. My best friend from college, Hesham, is an engineer for the Libyan National Oil Company. His family has had almost everything taken from by Ghadaffi. They HATE him there. Seriously, thinking he is a good guy in all of this is insane.
I would love to hear your justification for that.
And if I'm putting words in your mouth, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to understand if you're so skeptical of everything exactly what do you think is going on there.
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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zappaisgod
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: Grav]
#14143715 - 03/18/11 03:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grav said: you're just seeing a bunch of images of the Libyan people and then the media is interpreting for you the story of what is happening there, who the villains are, the good guys, and proposed solutions. you're being sold a war through your emotions and desire to help innocent people. you think a military invasion is going to make people's lives better?
as for your tweets and blogs, etc. from people on the ground, you might find this article interesting.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8388603/US-military-creates-fake-online-personas.html
So there is nothing at all happening there, right? Nothing to see there, move along.
You didn't answer my question. What would you do? Ignore it since it isn't really happening?
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communeart


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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: zappaisgod]
#14144392 - 03/18/11 05:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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There are accusations that israel is supporting gaddafi, Sarkozy recognized certain tribal leader of eastern lybia.
Quote:
you're just seeing a bunch of images of the Libyan people and then the media is interpreting for you the story of what is happening there, who the villains are, the good guys, and proposed solutions. you're being sold a war through your emotions and desire to help innocent people. you think a military invasion is going to make people's lives better?
as for your tweets and blogs, etc. from people on the ground, you might find this article interesting.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8388603/US-military-creates-fake-online-personas.html
there are reasons to believe that the zionists supports both side, thus the military cease-fire is a good answer for the people.
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Madtowntripper
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: communeart]
#14144453 - 03/18/11 05:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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The "zionists" are supporting BOTH sides?
Are the conspiracy theories breaking down that bad?
-------------------- After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action. If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it. - Ernest Hemingway If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it. In the law courts, in business, in government. There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent. -Cormac MacCarthy He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God. - Aeschylus
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ChuangTzu
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Re: UN Authorizes Military Strikes Against Libya [Re: communeart]
#14144455 - 03/18/11 05:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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A cease-fire? Are you saying there should be two Libyas?
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