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HippieChick8
seeker of justice



Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
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Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136570 - 03/17/11 12:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Poid said:Quote:
--the point I was trying to highlight by making that analogy is that, just because something can influence people's behaviors/attitudes doesn't necessarily mean it's a form of social engineering.
But you don't know the agenda of the advertisers because that info is not made public. You do not sit in the board room meetings of the advertisers so you are not privy to that information.
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
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Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136586 - 03/17/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
...just because something can influence people's behaviors/attitudes doesn't necessarily mean it's a form of social engineering.
Truth.
Quote:
...but it would not be considered a form of social engineering if the intent was something other than to socially engineer.
Truth.
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...one needn't have to influence attitudes in order to generate profits, you already agreed on this point earlier.
Right that is a given. But I was making the assertion that that^ is in fact what is going on. Undeniably.
Quote:
To control someone is not to fuck with that someone? 
I'd say its beyond that and so much more refined by now. '...Gotta catapult the propaganda...!!'
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 11 years, 20 days
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Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136604 - 03/17/11 12:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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but don't forget that mainstream media is controlled mostly by 3 large corporations and its not like i could just put an anti-oneofthem ad on their TV station
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
HippieChick8 said: Poid said:Quote:
--the point I was trying to highlight by making that analogy is that, just because something can influence people's behaviors/attitudes doesn't necessarily mean it's a form of social engineering.
But you don't know the agenda of the advertisers because that info is not made public.
Their agenda is to make money, what are you talking about? 
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
...one needn't have to influence attitudes in order to generate profits, you already agreed on this point earlier.
Right that is a given. But I was making the assertion that that^ is in fact what is going on. Undeniably.
Be that as it may, it's still not social engineering, which is the topic of discussion in this thread.
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
To control someone is not to fuck with that someone? 
I'd say its beyond that and so much more refined by now. '...Gotta catapult the propaganda...!!' 
It's basically just fucking with people for your own amusement.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended


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Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136665 - 03/17/11 12:58 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Be that as it may, it's still not social engineering, which is the topic of discussion in this thread.
Social engineering (political science), efforts to influence society on a large scale -wiki
It is. Period.
Quote:
It's basically just fucking with people for your own amusement. 
Or to go to war. Or commerce. Or to dominate an economy. Or to control Global finance. On and on.
And, yes... Thread topic. It comes out of the TV usually.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
Be that as it may, it's still not social engineering, which is the topic of discussion in this thread.
Social engineering (political science), efforts to influence society on a large scale -wiki
From the same article (what is this, like the 3rd time I've posted this?):
Quote:
In practice, whether any[thing]...is labeled as "social engineering" is often a question of intent.
The efforts of marketing are not to influence society on a large scale, they are to make money. Period.
Sure, sometimes marketing involves a little bit of coerciveness, but the intent of that coerciveness is to make money.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136791 - 03/17/11 01:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The efforts of marketing are not to influence society on a large scale, they are to make money. Period.
Sure, sometimes marketing involves a little bit of coerciveness, but the intent of that coerciveness is to make money.
By influencing society profits are made. This can be thought of as marketing.
You're right. And often it moves from a little coercive to blatantly manipulative very quickly. And, its obvious.
Where the hell do you live...??
We agree.
I think you have seen to much and am reeling from the experience... Make it go away!!
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
FishOilTheKid said: Where the hell do you live...??
Somewhere in the Silicon Valley.
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said: I think you have seen to much and am reeling from the experience... Make it go away!!
lol, wut? 
PS--*too
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended


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Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136957 - 03/17/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Maybe not...
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Maybe not what?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
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Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14137033 - 03/17/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think you have seen to much and am reeling from the experience...
This...^
I just had a weird thought... Like you have had experiences that you choose to remain skeptical about... And they spooked you or something.
IDK, random thought.
And I think I am bending the forum rules so I'm out.
Sorry... 'are' not 'am' in the reply...^
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
I think you have seen to much and am reeling from the experience...
This...^
I just had a weird thought... Like you have had experiences that you choose to remain skeptical about... And they spooked you or something.
You're probably not too far off there, I've psychologically repressed all kinds uncomfortable experiences. 
Not sure what caused you to mention this, though. 
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
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Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14137083 - 03/17/11 02:31 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Not sure what caused you to mention this, though.  
I feel I am intuiting some secondary conversation that is hard to explain when reading the way you post.
Or something...
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14137087 - 03/17/11 02:33 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
...all kinds uncomfortable experiences.
Were they psychedelic experiences if you don't mind me asking??
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
Not sure what caused you to mention this, though.  
I feel I am intuiting some secondary conversation that is hard to explain when reading the way you post.
Or something... 
Hmm, maybe my unconscious mind is bleeding into my posts somehow...
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
...all kinds uncomfortable experiences.
Were they psychedelic experiences if you don't mind me asking??
Probably most of them were.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
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Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14137110 - 03/17/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Crazy.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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ahchela
Tourist



Registered: 03/01/11 
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I think people addicted to the internet who stare blankly into a monitor for hours on end are clearly superior to people addicted to TV who stare blankly into a monitor for hours on end. 
Yeah I'd rather not get into that, last time I just got flamed. Personally I'm looking forward to finishing all the details with this move so I don't have to see this contraption. Still have to work on my resume and find a new job when I get their... more infonets yay... No one is superior to anyone else, regardless of how they try to put someone else down or how succesful they are at it. If life is survival of the fittest and no one survives, we're all equal. There is on the other hand a slight difference between tv and the internet, namely that the internet has massive utility and the tv has extremely scarce utility. The internet is also extremely interactive. In my recent internet binge I've touched up on my mycology knowledge, done a lot of philisophical and theological research, found information on overhauling my resume, researched apartments, researched specific jobs, and many other things...
Soo while I do think the internet can have negative side effects, and there is a truly massive amount of advertising online. I do not equate it to the thought box.
Back to the thought box. Television is a closed network, individuals without insideous amounts of money have no way of putting out "programming" outside of the extremely local level. Individuals with insideous amounts of money can put programming out, but if it doesn't match the ideal of the other networks they can run it through some government gestapo office and have it shut down before it starts. Alternately they can sue you pantsless. So only a certain group of super elite get any access to what goes on in TV world. I won't argue this point further as its inalienable to common sense.
A point which has thus far been overlooked: frames The individual lives within a single perspective, they view life through the eyes of one individual. Thats life right? In tv world (especially in commercials), the frame of perspective will change every 3 seconds or so. Thats 20 frames per minute. The mind cannot process all of the information thats coming through and becomes relatively glued to the screen. Its overloaded. The plot isn't going to slow down, its kicking full speed forward. Ever watch the news? You've probably noticed then that they have a line at the bottom rotating with news stories and developments. At the same time the anchors talking, images are appearing at various points on the screen, a lot of shits going on in that 3 second frame. Oh wait, heres another one, and another, and another. Why does the frame need to change every 3 seconds? If you don't know what I'm talking about just flip on the old tube for a minute and count the seconds between frames.
So what happens when you're in this experience? Too much information is coming at you in one minute to really process. No ones pausing for a "think" break, its just moving forward. So you know what the images are, you know what they represent, you know who you're seeing, you know what they're saying, but after awhile... after 10minutes... 20minutes... an hour... you're mind is long since overloaded. You're no longer using critical thinking, maybe you are but there are a lot of things being said and most of it will get past you. The plot is pretty fast and you have to reprocess the whole scene literally every 3 seconds. I remember reading an article concerning advertisers. The point was that even when you don't like a product, even if you say "Fuck this I'm never buying this product again just because this annoying commercial" you are more suseptible to buy the product just from having seen the commercial, because it keeps coming back, as long as you're watching its cramming itself into your mind. Over and over again. And the programming is reinforcing the commercials by purporting a culture of mindless spending and shallowness. Your mind is becoming more overloaded with images and sounds and the frame will not rest, ever, it keeps moving and you can't keep up - its a machine and you cannot keep up with it.
In an hours worth of television how much was said? How much do you remember? How much have you critically processed? How much just seeped into your mind?
Okay, now watch an older movie... say 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid'... count the time between frames. You'll probably notice its a little more relaxed. Okay, now switch over to some Bollywood! Even the music will change every few frames in a lot of Bollywood programming, its overwhelmingly disgusting... aaaand its no different than Western TV 
So television is overloading the users mind, they think they can keep track of everything thats going on but in every sentence spoken there are implications and thousands of lines are spoken. Massive amounts of information have been passed around, how much do you remember and what does each line mean in its entirety? If you want to get a message through to people, this is the way to do it. What the message is, is obvious. "This is what normal people think and feel, this is how they spend their time, this is what is philisophically correct, this is love, this is life, this is where to put your money."
Honestly, if someone watches tv I'm not inclined to examine their opinion in the matter too deeply. You really just don't know until you've left it for a few years, TV is baffling to the mind of an individual who is no longer indoctrinated into "it". Really, I believe the first step to freedom is to dump the fucking tube.
-------------------- Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.
Edited by ahchela (03/17/11 03:29 PM)
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FishOilTheKid
Ascended


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Re: Television [Re: ahchela]
#14137360 - 03/17/11 03:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Massive amounts of information have been passed around, how much do you remember?
I feel mainstream TV fails to deliver 'massive amounts of information.'
In fact, I think humans are capable of processing huge amounts of stimulus.
Its hypnotism from what I can see not overloading. If anything we are being starved for accurate information.
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ahchela
Tourist



Registered: 03/01/11 
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
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Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
Massive amounts of information have been passed around, how much do you remember?
I feel mainstream TV fails to deliver 'massive amounts of information.'
In fact, I think humans are capable of processing huge amounts of stimulus.
Its hypnotism from what I can see not overloading. If anything we are being starved for accurate information.
The point wasn't that you're recieving philisophical information the requires you to think over its implicit truths... Its general information about everything, every sentence spoken has more implications than the general message (to say something without saying it is not confined to the television world, everyone does it). In an hour you'll have heard thousands of general messages, and thousands of implications beneath them. As I said your mind is meanwhile being taxed by a flood of images from an unnatural perspective.
At the end of a program, a massive amount of information has been imparted. Most or all of that information is extremely mundane. They're not trying to get you thinking, they're trying to sell you something.
*edit: I would definitely agree that its hypnotism, but I would say its hypnotism through the method of overloading the attention span and conditioning the individuals opinion through massive amounts of mundane subconscious opinions
-------------------- Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.
Edited by ahchela (03/17/11 03:40 PM)
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