|
ahchela
Tourist



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
|
Television
#14135222 - 03/17/11 03:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Anyone else here think television is just a social engineering tool?
Haven't watched tv since I was 17, whenever I see it around now it just looks...
-------------------- Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Television [Re: ahchela]
#14135223 - 03/17/11 03:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ahchela said: Anyone else here think television is just a social engineering tool?
I think it's just for entertainment.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Mario_x86-64
Stranger

Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 206
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135412 - 03/17/11 06:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
It isn't just a social engineering tool, but it certainly is used for social engineering. It's the god of the new age to the masses.
-------------------- (LSD) Lysergic Acid Diethylamide 25 "It is just a tool to turn us into what we are supposed to be." - Albert Hofmann "Drugs have done good things for us, if you don't believe they have do me a favor and take all your albums, tapes, CD's and burn them. Because you know what? Those musicians that have made that great music that has enhanced your lifes through out the years ... real fucking high on drugs." - Bill Hicks
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
Mario_x86-64 said: It isn't just a social engineering tool, but it certainly is used for social engineering.
How do you know this? Do you have any evidence which suggests that the individuals who are involved with the production and exhibition of television shows intend to engineer society?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135422 - 03/17/11 06:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
How about Sesame Street? Thats social engineering isnt it?
I think television is a powerful medium that offers alot of good as well as bad.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said: How about Sesame Street? Thats social engineering isnt it?
I haven't really seen many Sesame Street episodes, but from what I know about it, it's mostly educational; can you explain to me how an educational show for children is social engineering?
Quote:
DieCommie said: I think television is a powerful medium that offers alot of good as well as bad.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135459 - 03/17/11 06:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Do you have any evidence which suggests that the individuals who are involved with the production and exhibition of television shows intend to engineer society?
How about like 'The Merchants of Cool?'
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/view/
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
But marketing to teens isn't as easy as it sounds. Marketers have to find a way to seem real: true to the lives and attitudes of teenagers; in short, to become cool themselves. To that end, they search out the next cool thing and have adopted an almost anthropological approach to studying teens and analyzing their every move as if they were animals in the wild.
Marketers do not market stuff to teens for the sole purpose of "engineering" them, they market stuff to them so that they can make money; this does not prove, as the OP said, that television is just a social engineering tool.
There's no proof that they're "engineering" teens' attitudes, anyway, it's highly likely that they're just marketing things to teens that they already find appealing.
Here's something really stupid I found on that site:
Do shows hyping teen sexuality simply reflect the world of teens? Or are teens imitating the image being sold to them?

Do these people actually think that teens are anything other than horny-as-fuck? Do they actually think that teens wouldn't be horny if it weren't for them watching sexually explicit crap on TV? Give me a fucking break...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135484 - 03/17/11 07:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
There's no proof that they're "engineering" teens' attitudes, anyway, it's highly likely that they're just marketing things to teens that they find interesting.
I don't see a difference.
They are writing reality.
Marketing is mostly about convincing or instilling desire. I'm sure attitude adjustments are a worthy tool.
The kids don't just find the campaign interesting... Interest is generated among them.
Engineering.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
There's no proof that they're "engineering" teens' attitudes, anyway, it's highly likely that they're just marketing things to teens that they find interesting.
I don't see a difference.
You don't? You don't see the difference between trying to influence people to buy a product that they would not have thought about buying previously, and selling them a product that already appeals to them?
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said: Marketing is mostly about convincing or instilling desire. I'm sure attitude adjustments are a worthy tool.
Marketing is about appealing to certain populations; it's easier to give a population what they want than to change/engineer what they want.
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said: The kids don't just find the campaign interesting... Interest is generated among them.
Huh, what campaign? Sexually explicit images are naturally appealing to teens, there is no engineering required in order to get teens to enjoy watching them.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 16 days
|
Re: Television [Re: ahchela] 1
#14135502 - 03/17/11 07:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ahchela said: Anyone else here think television is just a social engineering tool?
First, I could like to thank you for presenting the opportunity to post a video I wanted to post yesterday, but couldn't find an appropriate spot:
Aside from being a cool and calm video, she brings up an idea that an Icelandic poet gave to her.
--------------------

Edited by WScott (03/17/11 09:10 AM)
|
deranger

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
|
Re: Television [Re: WScott]
#14135522 - 03/17/11 07:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
TV... initiation into an addictive, family deprived lifestyle. money money monehhh
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid] 1
#14135526 - 03/17/11 07:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
You don't see the difference between trying to influence people to buy a product that they would not have thought about buying previously, and selling them a product that already appeals to them?
Oh yes. I hear you.
But, I feel that's the difference between sales and marketing. When marketing, you often are creating a market for a previously unheard of product. Creating buzz and hype so that people will buy. Marketing.
Quote:
...it's easier to give a population what they want than to change/engineer what they want.
I think engineering 'want' is easier than you think. I'm lovin it.
Quote:
Huh, what campaign?
Any successful marketing campaign is generating interest, buzz, hype and convincing consumers to buy therefore shaping culture.
|
the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: Television [Re: ahchela]
#14135533 - 03/17/11 07:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ahchela said: Anyone else here think television is just a social engineering tool?
Haven't watched tv since I was 17, whenever I see it around now it just looks...

not quite, although it is used in that manner. Most of the social engineering is a byproduct of the quest for ratings and the almighty dollar, imo. It's kinda like the mainstream music industry, the product and consumer sides both kinda feed and mutate each other, imo
Quote:
Do shows hyping teen sexuality simply reflect the world of teens? Or are teens imitating the image being sold to them?
poid:

Do these people actually think that teens are anything other than horny-as-fuck? Do they actually think that teens wouldn't be horny if it weren't for them watching sexually explicit crap on TV? Give me a fucking break...
you picard facepalmed a very legitimate question that calls for a relatively interesting discussion
of course teens are horny as fuck...that doesn't change the fact that all throughout history there have been fluctuating social taboos on various things.
if you don't think, say, for example... girl on girl action, anal sex, threesomes, DPs etc are 1000% more accepted as normal and commonplace by today's youth (i'm talkin jr. high/high school) on average than they were ten years ago, well then i guess you weren't around to witness the youth 10 years ago
i guess its different for every area but I see the general atmosphere changing rapidly. Back in the day if you got somebody pregnant you MARRIED that person...and that's even if you had sex before you got married
nowadays u just hoverboard down the block and get your fetus deletus like it aint no thang
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
Edited by the bizzle (03/17/11 07:34 AM)
|
WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 16 days
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135548 - 03/17/11 07:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Do shows hyping teen sexuality simply reflect the world of teens? Or are teens imitating the image being sold to them?
I raised a very similar question with this thread, here. Emulation, immitation and the concept of role-models certainly have an impact on the growth of children, these quasi-fabricated media starlets are in the spot light, the audience is obvious.
--------------------

|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
You don't see the difference between trying to influence people to buy a product that they would not have thought about buying previously, and selling them a product that already appeals to them?
Oh yes. I hear you.
But, I feel that's the difference between sales and marketing. When marketing, you often are creating a market for a previously unheard of product. Creating buzz and hype so that people will buy. Marketing.
I guess to a certain extent, marketing influences cultural attitudes and behaviors in that they cause people to have a certain attitude towards previously unheard of products, and to behave according to that attitude; but, if we consider that, in practice, whether anything is labeled as "social engineering" is often a question of intent, then we can rule out marketing as being a form of social engineering because its intent is purely to make a profit, not to engineer society.
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
...it's easier to give a population what they want than to change/engineer what they want.
I think engineering 'want' is easier than you think. I'm lovin it.
That slogan does not create a desire to eat cheeseburgers, it only reminds people of an already-existing one.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135565 - 03/17/11 07:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
...because its intent is purely to make a profit, not to engineer society.
No, no... The marketers engineer the society by shaping attitudes to later make a profit.
Quote:
That slogan does not create a desire to eat cheeseburgers, it only reminds people of an already-existing one.
Right, I was just dropping a sarcastic 'I'm lovin it' cause I'm not.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Television [Re: WScott]
#14135568 - 03/17/11 07:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
the bizzle said: if you don't think, say, for example... girl on girl action, anal sex, threesomes, DPs etc are 1000% more accepted as normal and commonplace by today's youth (i'm talkin jr. high/high school) on average than they were ten years ago, well then i guess you weren't around to witness the youth 10 years ago
Who said that people were engineered to like these things? It could just be that cultural attitudes toward sex are becoming less conservative, which causes people to seek out sexual behaviors which suit their individual tastes.
Quote:
the bizzle said: nowadays u just hoverboard down the block and get your fetus deletus like it aint no thang
lol, "fetus deletus". 
Quote:
WScott said: ...these quasi-fabricated media starlets are in the spot light, the audience is obvious.
I didn't know I was so obvious!
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
|
Quote:
nowadays u just hoverboard down the block and get your fetus deletus like it aint no thang
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
...because its intent is purely to make a profit, not to engineer society.
No, no... The marketers engineer the society by shaping attitudes to later make a profit.

Wait, wait..you're actually telling me that marketers spend their time twisting their mustaches and hatching plans to engineer society, & only consider profits to be of secondary importance?
Here's what marketing really is:
Marketing - Wikipedia
Quote:
Marketing is used to identify the customer, satisfy the customer, and keep the customer.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 16 days
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135578 - 03/17/11 07:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Customer does not equal human being.
--------------------

|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Television [Re: WScott]
#14135586 - 03/17/11 07:47 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Alien, then?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135597 - 03/17/11 07:51 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
...twisting their mustaches and hatching plans to engineer society, & only consider profits to be of secondary importance?
The profits come from the success of their engineering endeavors. The engineering secures future profits.
Quote:
Marketing is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerings that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large. -wiki
'...creating... ...offerings that have value... ...for society at large...'
Creating.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
...twisting their mustaches and hatching plans to engineer society, & only consider profits to be of secondary importance?
The profits come from the success of their engineering endeavors. The engineering secures future profits.
Marketers don't necessarily have to "engineer" attitudes in order to successfully sell a product; it doesn't matter what they did in order to make a profit, the point is that, since the purpose of marketing is to make money, it cannot be considered social engineering.
Say I wear certain clothes, and this influences people to copy my style; would you consider this social engineering, even though my intention in wearing those certain clothes was not to influence others' styles?
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
Marketing is the activity, set of institutions, and processes for creating, communicating, delivering, and exchanging offerings that have value for customers, clients, partners, and society at large. -wiki
'...creating... ...offerings that have value... ...for society at large...'
Creating.
They don't create that value, individuals choose what has value for them.
Again, the purpose of marketing is to make money, any influence on people's attitudes it has is just a common consequence of this, not a necessary one.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135664 - 03/17/11 08:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Who said that people were engineered to like these things? It could just be that cultural attitudes toward sex are becoming less conservative, which causes people to seek out sexual behaviors which suit their individual tastes.
i just mean that television has a major impact on this, what with reaching all of society faster than the ol' post
but its not all about becoming less conservative, it is also about wanting to be accepted by this "normal" society you see on tv. Some girls think they HAVE to be DPed or else someone will think there is something wrong with them
nobody is engineering fake boobs (...), but sex sells, so they put bigger faker boobs on tv. Then, in order to be a success, you have to compete (key concept here) with that. So you've got to have boobs as big as the girls on tv, at least if you want to be on tv...or so you think, err..i think
radio is a better example (or easier for me anyway)...
I used to like a lot of shit that was played on the radio. Why? Because they played it so often, and its all they played.
So, whether very aware of it or not, it made me think "well since this is what they put on the radio, this is people's most celebrated music, this is what is good and right and this is what music should be" even though I kinda knew it wasnt...
BUT
its all i had. Its all I knew.
So I listened to it... and much like growing up on TV it made me into a very confused person.
As far as I know, music is supposed to be about how popular you are and how much you hate your ex-girlfriend. Seems important 
i think you might be getting hung up on the word "engineered"
"who said that people were engineered to like these things?"
they weren't engineered by reptilian overlords
but people put whatever they can think of to make money on tv, and one way or another it affects the viewer's perception of the world
and TV is all around. I bet you if I started a conversation about CSI or MTV Cribs you'd know what I was talking about
and "you are a product of your environment", or whatever they say
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
Edited by the bizzle (03/17/11 08:19 AM)
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
the bizzle said: i think you might be getting hung up on the word "engineered"
"who said that people were engineered to like these things?"
they weren't engineered by reptilian overlords
That's not what I meant; this is a discussion about social engineering, you should know what I meant by that.
Quote:
the bizzle said: but people put whatever they can think of to make money on tv, and one way or another it affects the viewer's perception of the world
and TV is all around. I bet you if I started a conversation about CSI or MTV Cribs you'd know what I was talking about
and "you are a product of your environment", or whatever they say
In order for something to be considered a form of social engineering, its intent must be considered; if the intent of any given movement or action is not to socially engineer, then that movement/action cannot be considered to be a form of social engineering.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 16 days
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135812 - 03/17/11 09:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Companies attempt to compete for a share of the market. Companies with billions of dollars in advertising are competing for the consumption of the consumer/customer. You attempt to show that marketing is about the satisfaction of the customer but, at corporate levels, it is about satisfaction of the owners pocketbooks, with the customer being a secondary and optional motivation, imo.
--------------------

|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135822 - 03/17/11 09:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Marketers don't necessarily have to "engineer" attitudes in order to successfully sell a product...
Right. No kidding.
But, they do. Very successfully.
If profit is your aim and there is no market yet... Or an undeveloped market...
Quote:
Say I wear certain clothes, and this influences people to copy my style; would you consider this social engineering, even though my intention in wearing those certain clothes was not to influence others' styles?
That is not what we are talking about is it??
Its social engineering when the organic individual 'style' is stolen and mass manufactured for the Target shoppers to create a 'market.' Really, a cultural subset.
We are talking at the corporate level not really among peers.
Although, I could see your style... Think it was marketable... Create content to suggest that this style is a social strategy or 'cool' or 'in' or 'hip'... etc. The scene. The music. The saturation. Then target specific potential profiles within this 'group.' Lets target emo kids with a certain 'angst' look or haircut. Then we have to marry the look with the vibe of the generation. Hook, line, and sinker... Then what is cool and what kids look like and potentially how they act is more in my control.
*nasally voice* '...Who controls the screen... ...Controls your mind...' -Tim Leary
And, if I can control them in this way (emotionally) I can formulate a plan to profit even more from the targeted manipulation because they become predictable. This would all seem very organic to the consumer and if successful they would never know that it was all orchestrated... So that they could identify with a group or 'cool' and spill some cash to uphold the egoic image. Its the one they mistake themselves for.
As it remains transient it always needs to be clothed with something that feels... Me/Self.
Fish in a barrel.
BTW, both is going on. Manipulation and honest trade.
|
the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135825 - 03/17/11 09:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Justin Bieber is Justin Bieber

Quote:
In order for something to be considered a form of social engineering, its intent must be considered; if the intent of any given movement or action is not to socially engineer, then that movement/action cannot be considered to be a form of social engineering.
my advertisement campaign is intended to make you feel like you need to buy my product or else you will be a social loser and also not a patriot
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Television [Re: WScott]
#14135829 - 03/17/11 09:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
WScott said: You attempt to show that marketing is about the satisfaction of the customer but, at corporate levels, it is about satisfaction of the owners pocketbooks, with the customer being a secondary and optional motivation, imo.
How is it an optional motivation? The owners' pockets will not be satisfied if the customers are not satisfied.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 16 days
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135848 - 03/17/11 09:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
WScott said: You attempt to show that marketing is about the satisfaction of the customer but, at corporate levels, it is about satisfaction of the owners pocketbooks, with the customer being a secondary and optional motivation, imo.
How is it an optional motivation? The owners' pockets will not be satisfied if the customers are not satisfied.
Convincing and enticing the consumer to purchase something is not the same as offering a product and allowing the customer to decide for themselves*. I feel that their is entirely too much unnecessary consumption happening these days.
* I don't mean this in an absolute control, more about influence.
--------------------

Edited by WScott (03/17/11 09:23 AM)
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
Marketers don't necessarily have to "engineer" attitudes in order to successfully sell a product...
Right. No kidding.
But, they do. Very successfully.
So, their aim is to make money, not to influence attitudes for the sake of influencing attitudes.
Quote:
JohnnyZampano said:
Quote:
Say I wear certain clothes, and this influences people to copy my style; would you consider this social engineering, even though my intention in wearing those certain clothes was not to influence others' styles?
That is not what we are talking about is it??
Ever heard of analogies?
Quote:
JohnnyZampano said: We are talking at the corporate level not really among peers.
It doesn't matter, the analogy still fits; the point is that, just because people's attitudes are influenced by something, doesn't mean that something intently influenced those attitudes.
Quote:
JohnnyZampano said: Although, I could see your style... Think it was marketable... Create content to suggest that this style is a social strategy or 'cool' or 'in' or 'hip'... etc. The scene. The music. The saturation. Then target specific potential profiles within this 'group.' Lets target emo kids with a certain 'angst' look or haircut. Then we have to marry the look with the vibe of the generation. Hook, line, and sinker... Then what is cool and what kids look like and potentially how they act is more in my control.
Yeah, but corporations do not influence the populace just to fuck with people, they do it for money; hence, marketing is not a form of social engineering.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Television [Re: WScott]
#14135864 - 03/17/11 09:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
WScott said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
WScott said: You attempt to show that marketing is about the satisfaction of the customer but, at corporate levels, it is about satisfaction of the owners pocketbooks, with the customer being a secondary and optional motivation, imo.
How is it an optional motivation? The owners' pockets will not be satisfied if the customers are not satisfied.
Convincing and enticing the consumer to purchase something is not the same as offering a product and allowing the customer to decide for themselves.
So? How does this mean that the satisfaction of customers is an optional motivation at the corporate level?
Quote:
WScott said: I feel that their is entirely too much unnecessary consumption happening these days.
*there
So what if you feel like that? I feel like this was a completely irrelevant statement. 
PS--who are you to deem what type of consumption is "necessary" for others? Are you God?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14135892 - 03/17/11 09:33 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
So, their aim is to make money, not to influence attitudes for the sake of influencing attitudes.
it doesn't matter.
if you buy a shitty car from a convincing used car salesman, it still falls apart
your attitude was influenced, and you bought a car that you thought was the shit but it was just shit
regardless of whether the main intent was just to make money, the consequence is still there
so television is there, always trying to sell you a used car
and you don't have to buy what they try to sell you
as Manson said "If I wanted to terrorize a TV show I just wouldn't watch it"
but you know, TV & radio has more influence over kids these days than parents do, it would seem. You can hardly even escape it by not watching it because all the kids will be talking about it at school
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
Edited by the bizzle (03/17/11 09:34 AM)
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
the bizzle said:
Quote:
So, their aim is to make money, not to influence attitudes for the sake of influencing attitudes.
it doesn't matter.
In a discussion about whether something is a form of social engineering or not, it is extremely pertinent.
Quote:
the bizzle said: if you buy a shitty car from a convincing used car salesman, it still falls apart
your attitude was influenced, and you bought a car that you thought was the shit but it was just shit
regardless of whether the main intent was just to make money, the consequence is still there
So? In this scenario, that man could not be considered a social engineer.
Quote:
the bizzle said: so television is there, always trying to sell you a used car
and you don't have to buy what they try to sell you
as Manson said "If I wanted to terrorize a TV show I just wouldn't watch it"
but you know, TV & radio has more influence over kids these days than parents do, on average. You can hardly even escape it by not watching it because all the kids will be talking about it at school
Again, just because something influences people's behaviors, doesn't necessarily mean it's a form of social engineering--if that were true, then pretty much everything would be a form of social engineering.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136186 - 03/17/11 11:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
meh...i think you're maybe being nitpicky over words,
i do agree that its not necessarily a deliberate social engineering conspiracy
but regardless, if i make a tv show and you see it, it is potentially conditioning/influencing your world a little bit.
Anybody who is in position to control what you are experiencing is a social engineer to some degree. TV programs are a bit more so than day-to-day interactions simply because of its larger scale and domino effect, plus the fact that a lot of people watch what is on tv just because its on tv.
some people do, however intentional or not, have influence over a massive number of people. This is the power of those in the limelight or who control the limelight
Quote:
In a discussion about whether something is a form of social engineering or not, it is extremely pertinent.
i'm not even sure what you're arguing against anymore. maybe the ness of how "social engineer" sounds...
of course TV socially engineers
is TV a tool for social engineering? well, to think it was created for that purpose is pretty ridiculous, imo
but it can be used as a tool for such... is it? we have seen it used for propaganda before, so we know that it can be
i think it is mostly for entertainment but entertainment is one of the most profitable businesses, and every now and then TV is one of the most powerful tools there is in politics
a politician and an artist both can be a social engineer. The people who named Iceland and Greenland were social engineers. Every post in this forum is a social engineer. You like to sweat the small stuff
TV shares many of the same pros and cons as free market
peace i'm going fishing
"the rich have got their channels in the bedrooms of the poor"
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
Edited by the bizzle (03/17/11 11:05 AM)
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
the bizzle said:
Quote:
In a discussion about whether something is a form of social engineering or not, it is extremely pertinent.
i'm not even sure what you're arguing against anymore. maybe the ness of how "social engineer" sounds...
Read the Wikipedia article on social engineering if you're confused by the term.
Quote:
the bizzle said: is TV a tool for social engineering? well, to think it was created for that purpose is pretty ridiculous, imo

That's what the OP was asking, if we think TV is just a form of social engineering.
Quote:
the bizzle said: peace i'm going fishing
"the rich have got their channels in the bedrooms of the poor"
What a coincidence, I've been thinking about fishing a bit lately...
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Television [Re: ahchela]
#14136228 - 03/17/11 11:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ahchela said: Anyone else here think television is just a social engineering tool?
Haven't watched tv since I was 17, whenever I see it around now it just looks...

I think people addicted to the internet who stare blankly into a monitor for hours on end are clearly superior to people addicted to TV who stare blankly into a monitor for hours on end.
--------------------
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136467 - 03/17/11 12:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
So, their aim is to make money, not to influence attitudes for the sake of influencing attitudes.
Holy shit.
THEY INFLUENCE ATTITUDES TO MAKE MONEY!
Quote:
Ever heard of analogies?
Yup. Except your analogy doesn't fit. I am speaking of the creators. In your analogy, you are a consumer also. The clothes that you bought (from a creator) are not your idea(s) or influence.
Quote:
It doesn't matter, the analogy still fits; the point is that, just because people's attitudes are influenced by something, doesn't mean that something intently influenced those attitudes.
I think you are backpedaling...
Do you not think it possible that people could do this to (engineer) one another?? Or culture??
This something... 'MARKETING' is the intent to influence attitudes or the market to generate profits. Simple.
*click click*
Quote:
Yeah, but corporations do not influence the populace just to fuck with people, they do it for money; hence, marketing is not a form of social engineering.
Who said that social engineering was just to fuck with people?? Its profits driven policy usually. And lust for control.
Social architecture.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
So, their aim is to make money, not to influence attitudes for the sake of influencing attitudes.
Holy shit.
THEY INFLUENCE ATTITUDES TO MAKE MONEY!
Right. 
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
Ever heard of analogies?
Yup. Except your analogy doesn't fit. I am speaking of the creators. In your analogy, you are a consumer also. The clothes that you bought (from a creator) are not your idea(s) or influence.
That is all irrelevant--the point I was trying to highlight by making that analogy is that, just because something can influence people's behaviors/attitudes doesn't necessarily mean it's a form of social engineering.
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
It doesn't matter, the analogy still fits; the point is that, just because people's attitudes are influenced by something, doesn't mean that something intently influenced those attitudes.
I think you are backpedaling...
Do you not think it possible that people could do this to (engineer) one another?? Or culture??
It's possible, but it would not be considered a form of social engineering if the intent was something other than to socially engineer.
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said: This something... 'MARKETING' is the intent to influence attitudes or the market to generate profits. Simple.
No, it's merely the intent to generate profits; again, one needn't have to influence attitudes in order to generate profits, you already agreed on this point earlier.
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
Yeah, but corporations do not influence the populace just to fuck with people, they do it for money; hence, marketing is not a form of social engineering.
Who said that social engineering was just to fuck with people?? Its profits driven policy usually. And lust for control.
To control someone is not to fuck with that someone?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
HippieChick8
seeker of justice



Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136570 - 03/17/11 12:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Poid said:Quote:
--the point I was trying to highlight by making that analogy is that, just because something can influence people's behaviors/attitudes doesn't necessarily mean it's a form of social engineering.
But you don't know the agenda of the advertisers because that info is not made public. You do not sit in the board room meetings of the advertisers so you are not privy to that information.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136586 - 03/17/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
...just because something can influence people's behaviors/attitudes doesn't necessarily mean it's a form of social engineering.
Truth.
Quote:
...but it would not be considered a form of social engineering if the intent was something other than to socially engineer.
Truth.
Quote:
...one needn't have to influence attitudes in order to generate profits, you already agreed on this point earlier.
Right that is a given. But I was making the assertion that that^ is in fact what is going on. Undeniably.
Quote:
To control someone is not to fuck with that someone? 
I'd say its beyond that and so much more refined by now. '...Gotta catapult the propaganda...!!'
|
the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136604 - 03/17/11 12:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
but don't forget that mainstream media is controlled mostly by 3 large corporations and its not like i could just put an anti-oneofthem ad on their TV station
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
HippieChick8 said: Poid said:Quote:
--the point I was trying to highlight by making that analogy is that, just because something can influence people's behaviors/attitudes doesn't necessarily mean it's a form of social engineering.
But you don't know the agenda of the advertisers because that info is not made public.
Their agenda is to make money, what are you talking about? 
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
...one needn't have to influence attitudes in order to generate profits, you already agreed on this point earlier.
Right that is a given. But I was making the assertion that that^ is in fact what is going on. Undeniably.
Be that as it may, it's still not social engineering, which is the topic of discussion in this thread.
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
To control someone is not to fuck with that someone? 
I'd say its beyond that and so much more refined by now. '...Gotta catapult the propaganda...!!' 
It's basically just fucking with people for your own amusement.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136665 - 03/17/11 12:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Be that as it may, it's still not social engineering, which is the topic of discussion in this thread.
Social engineering (political science), efforts to influence society on a large scale -wiki
It is. Period.
Quote:
It's basically just fucking with people for your own amusement. 
Or to go to war. Or commerce. Or to dominate an economy. Or to control Global finance. On and on.
And, yes... Thread topic. It comes out of the TV usually.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
Be that as it may, it's still not social engineering, which is the topic of discussion in this thread.
Social engineering (political science), efforts to influence society on a large scale -wiki
From the same article (what is this, like the 3rd time I've posted this?):
Quote:
In practice, whether any[thing]...is labeled as "social engineering" is often a question of intent.
The efforts of marketing are not to influence society on a large scale, they are to make money. Period.
Sure, sometimes marketing involves a little bit of coerciveness, but the intent of that coerciveness is to make money.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136791 - 03/17/11 01:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The efforts of marketing are not to influence society on a large scale, they are to make money. Period.
Sure, sometimes marketing involves a little bit of coerciveness, but the intent of that coerciveness is to make money.
By influencing society profits are made. This can be thought of as marketing.
You're right. And often it moves from a little coercive to blatantly manipulative very quickly. And, its obvious.
Where the hell do you live...??
We agree.
I think you have seen to much and am reeling from the experience... Make it go away!!
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said: Where the hell do you live...??
Somewhere in the Silicon Valley.
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said: I think you have seen to much and am reeling from the experience... Make it go away!!
lol, wut? 
PS--*too
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14136957 - 03/17/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Maybe not...
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Maybe not what?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14137033 - 03/17/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I think you have seen to much and am reeling from the experience...
This...^
I just had a weird thought... Like you have had experiences that you choose to remain skeptical about... And they spooked you or something.
IDK, random thought.
And I think I am bending the forum rules so I'm out.
Sorry... 'are' not 'am' in the reply...^
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
I think you have seen to much and am reeling from the experience...
This...^
I just had a weird thought... Like you have had experiences that you choose to remain skeptical about... And they spooked you or something.
You're probably not too far off there, I've psychologically repressed all kinds uncomfortable experiences. 
Not sure what caused you to mention this, though. 
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14137083 - 03/17/11 02:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Not sure what caused you to mention this, though.  
I feel I am intuiting some secondary conversation that is hard to explain when reading the way you post.
Or something...
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14137087 - 03/17/11 02:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
...all kinds uncomfortable experiences.
Were they psychedelic experiences if you don't mind me asking??
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
Not sure what caused you to mention this, though.  
I feel I am intuiting some secondary conversation that is hard to explain when reading the way you post.
Or something... 
Hmm, maybe my unconscious mind is bleeding into my posts somehow...
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
...all kinds uncomfortable experiences.
Were they psychedelic experiences if you don't mind me asking??
Probably most of them were.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: Poid]
#14137110 - 03/17/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Crazy.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
ahchela
Tourist



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I think people addicted to the internet who stare blankly into a monitor for hours on end are clearly superior to people addicted to TV who stare blankly into a monitor for hours on end. 
Yeah I'd rather not get into that, last time I just got flamed. Personally I'm looking forward to finishing all the details with this move so I don't have to see this contraption. Still have to work on my resume and find a new job when I get their... more infonets yay... No one is superior to anyone else, regardless of how they try to put someone else down or how succesful they are at it. If life is survival of the fittest and no one survives, we're all equal. There is on the other hand a slight difference between tv and the internet, namely that the internet has massive utility and the tv has extremely scarce utility. The internet is also extremely interactive. In my recent internet binge I've touched up on my mycology knowledge, done a lot of philisophical and theological research, found information on overhauling my resume, researched apartments, researched specific jobs, and many other things...
Soo while I do think the internet can have negative side effects, and there is a truly massive amount of advertising online. I do not equate it to the thought box.
Back to the thought box. Television is a closed network, individuals without insideous amounts of money have no way of putting out "programming" outside of the extremely local level. Individuals with insideous amounts of money can put programming out, but if it doesn't match the ideal of the other networks they can run it through some government gestapo office and have it shut down before it starts. Alternately they can sue you pantsless. So only a certain group of super elite get any access to what goes on in TV world. I won't argue this point further as its inalienable to common sense.
A point which has thus far been overlooked: frames The individual lives within a single perspective, they view life through the eyes of one individual. Thats life right? In tv world (especially in commercials), the frame of perspective will change every 3 seconds or so. Thats 20 frames per minute. The mind cannot process all of the information thats coming through and becomes relatively glued to the screen. Its overloaded. The plot isn't going to slow down, its kicking full speed forward. Ever watch the news? You've probably noticed then that they have a line at the bottom rotating with news stories and developments. At the same time the anchors talking, images are appearing at various points on the screen, a lot of shits going on in that 3 second frame. Oh wait, heres another one, and another, and another. Why does the frame need to change every 3 seconds? If you don't know what I'm talking about just flip on the old tube for a minute and count the seconds between frames.
So what happens when you're in this experience? Too much information is coming at you in one minute to really process. No ones pausing for a "think" break, its just moving forward. So you know what the images are, you know what they represent, you know who you're seeing, you know what they're saying, but after awhile... after 10minutes... 20minutes... an hour... you're mind is long since overloaded. You're no longer using critical thinking, maybe you are but there are a lot of things being said and most of it will get past you. The plot is pretty fast and you have to reprocess the whole scene literally every 3 seconds. I remember reading an article concerning advertisers. The point was that even when you don't like a product, even if you say "Fuck this I'm never buying this product again just because this annoying commercial" you are more suseptible to buy the product just from having seen the commercial, because it keeps coming back, as long as you're watching its cramming itself into your mind. Over and over again. And the programming is reinforcing the commercials by purporting a culture of mindless spending and shallowness. Your mind is becoming more overloaded with images and sounds and the frame will not rest, ever, it keeps moving and you can't keep up - its a machine and you cannot keep up with it.
In an hours worth of television how much was said? How much do you remember? How much have you critically processed? How much just seeped into your mind?
Okay, now watch an older movie... say 'Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid'... count the time between frames. You'll probably notice its a little more relaxed. Okay, now switch over to some Bollywood! Even the music will change every few frames in a lot of Bollywood programming, its overwhelmingly disgusting... aaaand its no different than Western TV 
So television is overloading the users mind, they think they can keep track of everything thats going on but in every sentence spoken there are implications and thousands of lines are spoken. Massive amounts of information have been passed around, how much do you remember and what does each line mean in its entirety? If you want to get a message through to people, this is the way to do it. What the message is, is obvious. "This is what normal people think and feel, this is how they spend their time, this is what is philisophically correct, this is love, this is life, this is where to put your money."
Honestly, if someone watches tv I'm not inclined to examine their opinion in the matter too deeply. You really just don't know until you've left it for a few years, TV is baffling to the mind of an individual who is no longer indoctrinated into "it". Really, I believe the first step to freedom is to dump the fucking tube.
-------------------- Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.
Edited by ahchela (03/17/11 03:29 PM)
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: ahchela]
#14137360 - 03/17/11 03:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Massive amounts of information have been passed around, how much do you remember?
I feel mainstream TV fails to deliver 'massive amounts of information.'
In fact, I think humans are capable of processing huge amounts of stimulus.
Its hypnotism from what I can see not overloading. If anything we are being starved for accurate information.
|
ahchela
Tourist



Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 399
Loc: Pacific North West
|
|
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
Massive amounts of information have been passed around, how much do you remember?
I feel mainstream TV fails to deliver 'massive amounts of information.'
In fact, I think humans are capable of processing huge amounts of stimulus.
Its hypnotism from what I can see not overloading. If anything we are being starved for accurate information.
The point wasn't that you're recieving philisophical information the requires you to think over its implicit truths... Its general information about everything, every sentence spoken has more implications than the general message (to say something without saying it is not confined to the television world, everyone does it). In an hour you'll have heard thousands of general messages, and thousands of implications beneath them. As I said your mind is meanwhile being taxed by a flood of images from an unnatural perspective.
At the end of a program, a massive amount of information has been imparted. Most or all of that information is extremely mundane. They're not trying to get you thinking, they're trying to sell you something.
*edit: I would definitely agree that its hypnotism, but I would say its hypnotism through the method of overloading the attention span and conditioning the individuals opinion through massive amounts of mundane subconscious opinions
-------------------- Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.
Edited by ahchela (03/17/11 03:40 PM)
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 16 hours
|
Re: Television [Re: ahchela]
#14137404 - 03/17/11 03:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
They're not trying to get you thinking, they're trying to sell you something.
I hear you.
|
|