|
Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
|
Does consciousness depend on the brain?
#14117055 - 03/13/11 10:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Today, Reallity Sandwish published a thought provoking article on the millennial question about consciousness outside our brains. It supports the hypotheses I came to found the most plausible, after many a night spent studying and some empirical evidence. I understand that, without some degree of personal experience or what skeptics would call purely anecdotal, it's difficult for a thinker to go this way on the extremely-materialistic society we live in...
what are your thoughts and opinions on this subject?, do you think consciousness is produced inside the brain, or the organ acts like some kind of antenna or receiver, and so, what we call "mind" is beyond matter?

The fundamental point the argument draws on, is that the transmission and production hypotheses are equally compatible with the facts materialism tries to explain — such as the effects of senility, drugs, and brain damage on consciousness — but that it also has the advantage of providing a framework for understanding other phenomena that must remain utterly inexplicable and beyond comprehension by the hypothesis of materialism.
Quote:
The brain is not an organ that generates consciousness, but rather an instrument evolved to transmit and limit the processes of consciousness and of conscious attention so as to restrict them to those aspects of the material environment which at any moment are crucial for the terrestrial success of the individual. In that case such phenomena as telepathy and clairvoyance would be merely instances in which some of the limitations were removed - Cyril Burt, 1975
http://www.realitysandwich.com/does_consciousness_depend_brain
Quote:
In this materialistic age, dualists are often accused of smuggling outmoded religious beliefs back into science, of introducing superfluous spiritual forces into biology, and of venerating an invisible "ghost in the machine." However, our utter ignorance concerning the real origins of human consciousness marks such criticism more a matter of taste than of logical thinking. At this stage of mind science, dualism is not irrational, merely somewhat unfashionable. --Physicist Nick Herbert, Elemental Mind.
|
g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14117076 - 03/13/11 11:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
i do think consciousness and mind are primary to the brain. It's simply a paradigm shift, going from looking at "I" as a result of the world we see around us, to the opposite view where our fundamental nature is seen to be the source. All beings are source points of creation walking around the universe.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
|
deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: g00ru]
#14117283 - 03/13/11 11:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Let me phrase my answer to this question like this: if you constructed something that functionally duplicates a living human brain, that thing would have to be conscious IMO.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head


Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: deCypher]
#14117496 - 03/14/11 12:21 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
All I can say is I've come out of body and my body has kept its weird sleep paralysis and panic and I've felt completely calm, viewing it from above. For me, especially feeling the impact of the experience, that's enough to put the where-is-consciousness question to rest. It's not in the brain.
Wouldn't surprise me if consciousness survives the body in the most impossible, non-intuitive and mind boggling way. After all, OBEs make fuck all sense. Outside of this brain, 'reality' or whatever it is, is not what you think it is! I guess any shroomer would know that.
I'm convinced consciousness or 'you' or whatever is going to get what it wants - eternal duration, somehow, some way. I know people slam this idea as idealistic because it's what religion is based around and sometimes it denies life. But sometimes it affirms life too - after all if you're going to vanish, fuck this shit! Just be an asshole, who cares, you know? And it's only idealistic in a mechanistic, reasonable, rational universe, but I think the universe is none of these things.
It's kind of a 'well whatever' situation for me now, if I die. It's not quite a benevolent universe, and it's not quite evil, it's surreal and mysterious and quite beyond what most people ever experience.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
|
weshroom



Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 3,657
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: deCypher]
#14117521 - 03/14/11 12:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deCypher said: Let me phrase my answer to this question like this: if you constructed something that functionally duplicates a living human brain, that thing would have to be conscious IMO.
In a gross oversimplification I would say yes, it would have an aspect of consciousness as all things are connected at a quantum level.
|
r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1,327
Loc: Chicago
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14117807 - 03/14/11 01:38 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
That was a really cool article. Thanks. 
I was also reading something not too long ago on the subject as well.
http://www.superconsciousness.com/topics/science/why-consciousness-not-brain
I thought that was good as well, but not as comphrehensive as this. The best part from the article that I felt summed it up was this:
Quote:
Consider a radio, an invention that was introduced during James’s lifetime, and which he used to illustrate the mind-brain relationship. If one bangs a radio with a hammer, it ceases to function. But that does not mean that the origin of the sounds was the radio itself; the sound originated from outside it in the form of an electromagnetic signal. The radio received, modified, and amplified the external signal into something recognizable as sound. Just so, the brain can be damaged in various ways that distort the quality of consciousness – trauma, stroke, nutritional deficiencies, dementia, etc. But this does not necessarily mean the brain “made” the consciousness that is now disturbed, or that consciousness is identical to the brain.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
|
Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: deCypher]
#14117909 - 03/14/11 02:08 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particles of a atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of a atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of conscious intelligent mind, this mind is the matrix of all matter -Max Planck
EDIT: BTW this is just a idea Im entertaining.
This entire physical existence is a expression of that fundamental consciousness. When consciousness is condensed down into the lowest expression of itself it assumes the form of matter. Assuming the big bang theory is true which all evidence points to it being undoubtedly so. The conditions that enabled all matter and space to exist in a singularity would have to be present in all matter and space currently. So wouldnt it be possible for the higher forms of consciousness to resonate with the lower ones, and simultaneously exist in the same space through dimensional separation? What if the structure of the body and brain acts as a resonator that picks up and amplifies the resonance of higher consciousness and channels it into this lower state that is our perceived physical reality? Upon death the connection would be broken but the information would not be lost as it never existed solely in the physical form.
Or maybe this is just the stoned ramblings of my ego trying to convince itself of its non-impermanence. Feel free to tear this idea apart.
Edited by Bodhi of Ankou (03/14/11 03:38 AM)
|
soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14118085 - 03/14/11 04:05 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
do you think consciousness is produced inside the brain, or the organ acts like some kind of antenna or receiver, and so, what we call "mind" is beyond matter?
Yeah I do no think immaterial can arise from the material but only the material can arise from the immaterial. The material world is latent within consciousness and is a sort aspect of consciousness.
Consider this;
Quote:
Note that subatomic particles could not aggregate into molecules unless and until electromagnetic forces existed to bind them; and that molecules could not aggregate into compounds and compounds into planets unless gravity existed. What are these forces and by what process did they arise? Materialism cannot tell us. In this book we offer an explanation for such formative forces of attraction and show that they are part of a unified process that binds the world together at its most basic perceptual level.
http://www.meherbabadnyana.net/article_percpt.html
The fundamental forces exist in the "field" prior to the material counter-parts they govern because they are inherent in the laws of consciousness or as the book explains, they are laws of perception. The "field" is the indivisble non-finite perception that is reality.
Perception isn't static it is in constant flux, evolving as one way of perceiving slowly morphs into a new way of perceiving. Building upon itself from the ground up with each way of perceiving serving as the building block for the next. Illusions give rise to further illusions. A rabbit cannot see the same colours that we see because those colours have yet to evolve and occur in it's perception. From what I believe and understand, the consciousness of the rabbit is more or less limited by its body in terms of what it can perceive however when it dies it will take on a new body which will make it possible to experience the new perceptions that were made possible by it's previous life as a rabbit.
Or for a better explaination and clarification consider the following from Meher Baba's 'God Speaks;
Quote:
Then the consciousness of the soul associates itself with the most-last species of worm - f o rm after experiencing all the impre ssions of the varied species of worm-form, and when the conscious soul eventually drops or sheds this most-last species of worm form after ages and cycles of multiple diverse experiences in the gross world, the conscious soul again finds itself without any association or identification with forms. But the consciousness of the soul is now centered in the impressions of the most-last species of worm form just shed. These impressions must necessarily be exhausted thro ugh experience, and to get experience a suitable medium is necessary. T h e re f o re the consciousness of the soul, being centered in the i m p ressions of the most-last species of worm - f o rm, associates with an appropriate medium and tends the soul to identify itself with the m o s t - first species of fis h - f o rm in order to experience and exhaust the impressions of the most-last species of worm-form. This most first species of fish-form is nothing other than the consolidated mould of the impressions of the most-last species of worm-form.
As soon as the impressions of the most-last species of the worm - f o rm are exhausted through experiences, the most-first species of fis h - f o rm is dropped or shed because the consciousness of the soul dissociates from this most-first species and the conscious soul no longer identifies itself with that species.
Although the conscious soul is now once again temporarily without form, yet the consciousness of the soul is centred in the imp ressions of the most-first species of fis h - f o rm . In order to experience these impressions of the most-first species of fish-form, the consciousness of the soul associates itself with a suitable medium and tends the conscious soul to identify itself as the most-next species of fis h - f o rm. This species is nothing but the consolidated mould of the impressions of the most-first species of fish form
So the brain acts as a sort of perceptual organizer and limits the soul's consciousness into a sort of pattern or matrix of perceiving it's world. This is on par with and suggested by Huxley's theories on how the brain acts as a filter for consciousness.
Why believe that consciousness supercedes matter? Why not. When you actually study materialism you realize there is actually no real reason to believe matter is more fundamental then consciousness, as others have pointed out it is simply in fashion. Christopher Ott goes into this in great detail in his books 'The Essentials of Metaphysics and it's prequel 'The evolution of Perception and the Cosmology of Substance'. I suggest you read them.
Quote:
Indivisible: cannot be split in two. Early Greek philosophers sought for a fundamental substance or process out of which the universe is constructed. It was discerned by them that the substance must, by necessity, be indivisible. For this reason the Greek atom was theorized to be an indivisible particle. This solved the problem of accounting for change while postulating an indivisible entity. Thus the atom was originally a clever theoretical idea, solving both empirical and philosophical problems. The notion of a fundamental particle, however, largely disintegrated in the 20th century, due in part to modern particle accelerators. Quantum events occuring on a subatomic level have added to confusion over the fundamental nature of reality. The search for the fundamental stuff or process of life is thus once again a matter of inquiry.
The fundamental stuff or more importantly PROCESSES which has brought about the world we know today is indeed still a matter of inquiry. IMO western science is at its threshold and on the verge of realizing the reality that perception is reality. Perception is the indivisible "substance" the Greeks theorized to exist.
One other thought. It is admitted by materialists that consciousness is an incredible feat of the brain, the material creating the immaterial is quite the (imaginary IMO) accomplishment. However is it limited to the brain? DO all organisms with consciousness have a brain as complex as higher animals? What about jellyfish they do not have brains? What if plants (which do not even have nervous systems) have consciousness? What about ants they have a consciousness how complex is are their brains? It evolved from a even more simple brain so did the first "brain" have consciousness? How simple is that brain?
"The evolution of gross forms is but a by-product in the universal factory of evolution of consciousness." Meher Baba
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
Edited by soldatheero (03/14/11 04:16 AM)
|
Fisherman
Tchee'ik


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 1,342
Loc: Glrrrrrrr!
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: soldatheero]
#14118095 - 03/14/11 04:14 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Man
fu
Th is thus
Shit
Nigga, ruight here.
Is not deep, norr wide.
ut
is, simply, misunderstanding.
Yourself, and others. 'Butm this, sense, has none, so ytherefopre, are.
Insane,
Hateyou,
alot, btwm, did u see me^? I must be so amzing half of it wouldne be eboung, abermeihn, things move wforwards.
But yet backwardfds, therefore, I repeatmyself, constantly, on, on, and on,.
You are not me.
You are not welcome.
I am not welcome.'
You are chaos, enjoy ur stay.
-------------------- EVERYTHING IS DRUGS
|
blewmeanie




Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14118120 - 03/14/11 04:33 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Well, I think the brain, as well as the rest of our body and everything we experience, all contribute towards consciousness. I guess the real question for me is, does awareness exist once everything is stripped away? I don't know the answer, and I don't believe any other living human does either.
|
Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14118126 - 03/14/11 04:39 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
The best 'evidence' to support it is that in many cases of OBE/NDE & even psilocybin studies the brain activity does not increase but rather decreases during an OBE, yet people experience a greater consciousness than that of normal day to day life
--------------------
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head


Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: Chronic7]
#14118299 - 03/14/11 07:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Chronic said: The best 'evidence' to support it is that in many cases of OBE/NDE & even psilocybin studies the brain activity does not increase but rather decreases during an OBE, yet people experience a greater consciousness than that of normal day to day life
Inner-resting
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
|
Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: circastes]
#14133223 - 03/16/11 07:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Theres also the effect conscious thought has on the brain itself in regards to its neuroplasticity, verry inner-resting indeed.
|
Smoky McPot
Fool



Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 921
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
#14133274 - 03/16/11 08:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Mind is Buddha. Buddha is everything. Buddha is nothing. nothing is Buddha. everything is Buddha. Buddha is mind.
-------------------- [quote] Free.Your.Mind said: jesus btw had part alien DNA how do you think was able to preform miracles? i look at the bible from a scientific stand point [/quote]
|
Smoky McPot
Fool



Registered: 03/16/11
Posts: 921
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: soldatheero]
#14133295 - 03/16/11 08:07 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
soldatheero said:
Yeah I do no think immaterial can arise from the material but only the material can arise from the immaterial. The material world is latent within consciousness and is a sort aspect of consciousness.
"The evolution of gross forms is but a by-product in the universal factory of evolution of consciousness." Meher Baba
qft
(sorry for the double post)
-------------------- [quote] Free.Your.Mind said: jesus btw had part alien DNA how do you think was able to preform miracles? i look at the bible from a scientific stand point [/quote]
|
sneh
Stranger
Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 4
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: Smoky McPot]
#18980171 - 10/15/13 06:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Thinking and memory depend upon the cortex of the brain, and so "it is difficult beyond measure to understand how they could survive after the dissolution, decay or destruction of the living brain in which they had their original locus.
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: sneh]
#18980533 - 10/15/13 09:11 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I know beyond any doubt that there are no past lives. How? Because I am almost 50 and I am only just who I am, and I have never remembered past lives in spite of having regressions. If I can't fathom past lives now then it's less likely that with less tools in the past I might have been able to.
Also during this life I know that I am corrupted, an asshole, selfish, hateful, despondent, anti-social, and addicted. If I had past lives they were just like that. So ultimately they don't matter one way or the other.
Just thought I would shoot that out there. The point? If sentience isn't a temporal phenomenon then what the fuck is it doing here now?
-------------------- ...or something
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: eve69]
#18980542 - 10/15/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Also during this life I know that I am corrupted, an asshole, selfish, hateful, despondent, anti-social, and addicted.
But I'm sure there must be some downsides to your personality also. You can't be that perfect.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 1 month, 25 days
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: Icelander]
#18981175 - 10/15/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I am truthful
-------------------- ...or something
|
MeinDarkEye



Registered: 12/01/12
Posts: 50
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
|
Re: Does consciousness depend on the brain? [Re: eve69]
#18981534 - 10/15/13 02:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Our consciousness's reside in this universe, and in this universe every year nature brings life with spring and dies off more or less in winter. Why should who we are behind our eyes not do the same in birth to death and death to birth.
Only thing that happens when you die is the same thing that happens when you sleep at night. You either dream, or you wake up in another dream. If you do not fear letting go of yourself in sleep, then don't fear the reaper. That skull is simply grinning.

Imagine being born without being able to see the light in the conscious realm of reality. Do you truly exist? You hear people, you feel things, you smell, you taste etc. But what would you define as real in that state. What truly is, real.
--------------------
Why can't you be normal! What you mean to say is, Average. What's the pride in country if it robs a man of will? What's the pride in manhood if a man will rape and kill? What's the pride in killing if the dead will rise again? Ah, but there's a pride in knowing the enemies within.
Edited by MeinDarkEye (10/15/13 02:20 PM)
|
|