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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: jebustrist]
    #14166903 - 03/22/11 08:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

jebustrist said:
Not really




Yes, really.  Any attempts at building credibility will be moot if you go around here making statements like that.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14168406 - 03/23/11 04:36 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> than nuclear waste (like depleted uranium) which is highly radioactive.

Depleted uranium isn't really considered a nuclear waste (it is called a byproduct in the industry), nor is it very radioactive (around 40% less than natural uranium).  The proper terminology is 'depleted uranium is a weakly radioactive byproduct of uranium enrichment'.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: jebustrist]
    #14168628 - 03/23/11 07:26 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Sounds more like the oil cartels are to blame than the wind/solar cartels.




I'd be quite surprised if that were the case. What seuss describes sounds like the kind of nonsense only government can deliver.  Any involvement of private enterprise is surely limited to enforcing ill-advised monopoly rights the government granted to them or other unjust special privledges.  Since Seuss said the power comapny is government owned or backed, it fits with how those things usually go:

  • a) government buys/starts enterprise of public concern, utility et cet, claims it can do better than private enterprise because "they're interested in profit, we're interested in serving the residents at the lowest possible cost",
  • b) government does things like usual: being horribly inefficient and using their legislative and police powers to carve out special laws and exceptions for themselves that prevent competition and interference that private business would have had to accept. 
  • c)the operation runs into problems due to mismanagement, lack of competition, and political decisions, nepotism, et cet
  • d) finally the operation is running way above what a private enterprise would, and almost insolvent despite receiving taxpayer assistance and charging above-average user fees (electric rates) on top of that.  They would be insolvent if the wind farm opens up and takes a portion of their market, as they can barely make ends meet at full capacity, and so the government, afraid of controversy, grants some unelected board power to essentially write law from scratch and take the blame.
  • e) Unelected board passes regulation preventing wind farm competition from opening up or making it unfeasible by insisting on special rules the government-ran operation doesn't have to follow/pay for.  Incumbent government passes the buck to the board whose members they appointed.  Board isn't elected, doesn't care.  Residents continue to pay way above market value in user fees and taxes.
  • The end


The end.

Seuss:  How'd I do?

Quote:



My understanding of thermodynamics tells me that wind and solar are just more feasible than temperature-differential based energy technology for science reasons rather than anything teh gubbamint is doing.

Not that there aren't some good ones, such as Stirling Solar in Arizona. Ultimately, though, any heat-to-work system is going to be limited by Carnot efficiency, which is a theoretical maximum of 50%, less in practice, of course.

Wind and solar just have a much higher theoretical maximum efficiency since wind and photons are both kinds of work, not heat.

I think.






Carnott efficiency is just the theoretical maximum efficiency a heat engine operates at, i.e. the 100% efficient case for a given thermal input and output.  It isn't a set percent utilization of the input, like 50% of the potential energy available, but rather a function of the energy actually extracted from the resevoir- everything less than that amount of work is waste.

Since solar, geothermal, wind, et cet extracts energy from systems it doesn't have to fuel/energize (i.e. rather than the turbine running off a coal boiler which needs to heat the water) I wouldn't imagine the amount of energy extracted or portion of carnot efficiency utilized is particularly important.  I'd imagine the economic efficiency, cost per energy, and practical issues like available power and engineering concerns would be the limiting factors.



Quote:

jebustrist said:
Not really, and it's quite irrelevant to the point anyway, which is that coal plants are far more of a risk to public health than nuclear before you even factor in their contribution to global warming,.




You said coal ash is more radioactive than waste nuclear fuel rods.  Your link, despite its misleading title, meerly claims that coal plants contribute more radioactivity to the environment than do nuclear plants presently, and that they are more dangerous than the coal plants in terms of radioactive effects.

Obviously, these are two different things.  Nuclear waste is notoriously nasty.  The reputation is not unearned.

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InvisibleJohnnyConverse
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: johnm214]
    #14168641 - 03/23/11 07:39 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Coal power plants emit more radiation than uranium plants, and coal mines are more dangerous than modern uranium mines. Fly ash is more radioactive than nuclear waste because of how the two are emitted, and stored, and shielded.

If you took equal masses of each, with no sheilding, and just metered their emissions? The nuclear waste would be the "winner" - but we don't mince up nuclear waste and shoot it into the atmosphere. We're somewhat...less discriminating...what it comes to coal plant byproducts.

Of course neither are statistically significant dose sources, unless you work in them all day


--------------------
I wasn't an activist until I got put in jail. I sat there in jail seeing what was really going on in America and something changed. Now when people say, "Tommy what was jail like?" I say "You'll see" -- Tommy Chong

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: JohnnyConverse]
    #14169430 - 03/23/11 11:23 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnnyConverse said:
Fly ash is more radioactive than nuclear waste because of how the two are emitted, and stored, and shielded.





No. No. No. No. You know yourself that is wrong.  Stop saying it.

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: JohnnyConverse]
    #14170418 - 03/23/11 02:14 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnnyConverse said:
If you took equal masses of each, with no sheilding, and just metered their emissions? The nuclear waste would be the "winner" - but we don't mince up nuclear waste and shoot it into the atmosphere. We're somewhat...less discriminating...what it comes to coal plant byproducts.




But that's just it Americans do, have you never heard of armour piercing bullets/shells. They use depleted uranium (why I mentioned it) as an armour piercing agent. These DU rounds have likely caused more cancer and more birth defects than all the coal plants in the world.

also as I already said the article doesn't as I said measure any of the radiation emitted through water into the ground water or rivers. It only talks about airborne emissions from plants, which makes it an unfair comparison.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Offlinethelivingfreekshow
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14170440 - 03/23/11 02:18 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

WELL MAYBE IF MORONS DIDNT BUILD THE PLANTS ONLY A STONES THROW FROM A MAJOR FAULTLINE THIS WOULDNT HAPPEN!!!:facepalm:  derp!!!!

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14170461 - 03/23/11 02:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
These DU rounds have likely caused more cancer and more birth defects than all the coal plants in the world.





What, prey tell, are you basing that on?

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14170795 - 03/23/11 03:20 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

mostly just the amounts of reports of cancer/birth defects in areas surrounding conflict zones that used DU, and the absence of such reports about coal plants. The reports of either are sketchy to quantify well, so that is why I used uncertain language to establish my claim.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14171345 - 03/23/11 04:57 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
mostly just the amounts of reports of cancer/birth defects in areas surrounding conflict zones that used DU, and the absence of such reports about coal plants. The reports of either are sketchy to quantify well, so that is why I used uncertain language to establish my claim.





There is no such absence of reports about the elevated cancer risks associated with breathing byproducts of coal combustion.  There are hundreds of such reports.  Couple that with the fact that coal has been used for much, much longer than DU has been used in weapons and your claim seems the opposite of likely.

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: Mchaggis]
    #14171414 - 03/23/11 05:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mchaggis said:
Well its too late to turn back now.

It blows my mind how many people are unaware of the nuclear reactors around them all the time, possibly even powering the computer you're using. Check wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#United_States_of_America

20 minutes from my house in different directions there are 3 units in a nuclear power plant, three hydroelectric dams, and two steam (coal) plants

edit: You know, we hold back so much water with those hydroelectric dams, and it sure would cause a lot of horrible, terrible things if they broke or something, maybe we shouldn't use those either.

And come to think of it, electricity causes a lot of horrible, terrible things to happen in general. Maybe hiding naked in a cave would work?





:lol:

POSSIBLY powering the computer I'm using? LOL definitely powering the computer I'm using. we have turkey power plant here in miami, next to the coast but how is THAT safer?


this is why my uncle came up with the company powermand. they had a really cool web site describing how the over cost of energy use has created a world wide energy crisis. the problem with nuclear energy being so unsafe is that it's SO much cheaper than coal or gas. sure it's WAY WAY WAY more expensive to build and create, but once installed it uses so little power you get your money back and everyone uses it.


the cheapest way to save energy is at the end user level, people use SO much energy it's not even funny, businesses use it on overlighting on huge hvacs on top of buildings and no way to actually use less power when peak hours aren't in service.


it's too bad since they were bought by makad that powermand.com isn't up anymore. now it's dreamwatts by makad energy.


still i guess this doesn't solve the issue of whether nuclear is installed or not. but if people used less energy when it wasn't absolutely necessary that it wouldn't be such a big deal to put more and more power plants in areas, if demographics showed that certain areas didn't require as much energy.


then again though, at peak hours i guess all the energy is necessary. but i mean honestly look at these pictures:

http://www.oklo.org/wp-content/images/p-earth-night.jpg


is that ABSOLUTELY necessary? to use that much light? i'm sure a lot of energy could be cut down if there was such a way to utilize cutting energy easily and affordably. such as what powermand does, which is installed for the end user, and you can cut of power or create overrides to use less power through the internet for 100,000 square feet buildings or larger. it's really load balancing. but it makes a HUGE difference, maybe not for a household user, but for a large business owner, that uses more power than ever necessary because they don't want to dim lights when it isn't peak hours etc. because he isn't there to do so and can't create over rides


that type of stuff is actually really expensive for a business owner. maybe not QUITE as much for a household(although you can see the difference on your bill, that's for sure, quite a few hundred in the summer when it's hotter for your ac running), it makes a big difference for the business non the less.


idk... also remember, in the u.s. the price of electricity generally is between 5 and 15 cents per kilowatt per hour, but in countries outside the u.s. it's ridiculous, up to past even 50 cents per kilowatt per hour. insane


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: thelivingfreekshow]
    #14171425 - 03/23/11 05:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

thelivingfreekshow said:
WELL MAYBE IF MORONS DIDNT BUILD THE PLANTS ONLY A STONES THROW FROM A MAJOR FAULTLINE THIS WOULDNT HAPPEN!!!:facepalm:  derp!!!!






so where are you supposed to put it? i mean there are hundreds of major cities built across fault lines across the world, such as in california, you have san diego, l.a., san fransisco. where are they supposed to draw their power from? new mexico?


cmon dude, think first.......... :foreheadslap:


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: imachavel]
    #14171586 - 03/23/11 05:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

No, he's right.  Nuke plants should definitely not be located near San Fran or LA or other seismically violent areas.  That leaves several million square miles where it is fine.  By the way, it wasn't the quake that fucked the Japs, it was the tsunami.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: imachavel]
    #14171612 - 03/23/11 05:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
so where are you supposed to put it? i mean there are hundreds of major cities built across fault lines across the world, such as in california, you have san diego, l.a., san fransisco. where are they supposed to draw their power from? new mexico?


cmon dude, think first.......... :foreheadslap:




Luckily power lines can and do efficiently transmit energy over long distances so the power plant that serves San Francisco doesn't need to be in the middle of San Francisco.  California gets lots of their power from Mexico...

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: imachavel]
    #14171925 - 03/23/11 06:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
is that ABSOLUTELY necessary? to use that much light? i'm sure a lot of energy could be cut down if there was such a way to utilize cutting energy easily and affordably. such as what powermand does, which is installed for the end user, and you can cut of power or create overrides to use less power through the internet for 100,000 square feet buildings or larger. it's really load balancing. but it makes a HUGE difference, maybe not for a household user, but for a large business owner, that uses more power than ever necessary because they don't want to dim lights when it isn't peak hours etc. because he isn't there to do so and can't create over rides




That's just it, as I mentioned about why solar's value is underrepresented, load-balancing is a huge factor. Both Tomas Friedman and George Monbiot have lamented in books the lack of load balance pricing in the sale of power, because it would decrease... well everything. Imagine if a few firms ran graveyard or pre-dawn shifts instead of daytime shifts to cut the electric bill. Not only could it cut power load but it could cut traffic and transit congestion. If people had to eat the expense of running their air conditioners during peek hours directly instead of with everyone else they would probibly have organized a more efficient way to manage their power. I sure bet it'd have people tossing solar panels up like nobody's buisness.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14171941 - 03/23/11 06:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
so where are you supposed to put it? i mean there are hundreds of major cities built across fault lines across the world, such as in california, you have san diego, l.a., san fransisco. where are they supposed to draw their power from? new mexico?


cmon dude, think first.......... :foreheadslap:




Luckily power lines can and do efficiently transmit energy over long distances so the power plant that serves San Francisco doesn't need to be in the middle of San Francisco.  California gets lots of their power from Mexico...




This is actually false power lines consume a lot of power particularly over long distances. I already outlined this earlier in the thread.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14172172 - 03/23/11 07:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
is that ABSOLUTELY necessary? to use that much light? i'm sure a lot of energy could be cut down if there was such a way to utilize cutting energy easily and affordably. such as what powermand does, which is installed for the end user, and you can cut of power or create overrides to use less power through the internet for 100,000 square feet buildings or larger. it's really load balancing. but it makes a HUGE difference, maybe not for a household user, but for a large business owner, that uses more power than ever necessary because they don't want to dim lights when it isn't peak hours etc. because he isn't there to do so and can't create over rides




That's just it, as I mentioned about why solar's value is underrepresented, load-balancing is a huge factor. Both Tomas Friedman and George Monbiot have lamented in books the lack of load balance pricing in the sale of power, because it would decrease... well everything. Imagine if a few firms ran graveyard or pre-dawn shifts instead of daytime shifts to cut the electric bill. Not only could it cut power load but it could cut traffic and transit congestion. If people had to eat the expense of running their air conditioners during peek hours directly instead of with everyone else they would probibly have organized a more efficient way to manage their power. I sure bet it'd have people tossing solar panels up like nobody's buisness.





and besides they'd save a shit load of money


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14172190 - 03/23/11 07:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
so where are you supposed to put it? i mean there are hundreds of major cities built across fault lines across the world, such as in california, you have san diego, l.a., san fransisco. where are they supposed to draw their power from? new mexico?


cmon dude, think first.......... :foreheadslap:




Luckily power lines can and do efficiently transmit energy over long distances so the power plant that serves San Francisco doesn't need to be in the middle of San Francisco.  California gets lots of their power from Mexico...




This is actually false power lines consume a lot of power particularly over long distances. I already outlined this earlier in the thread.





yes of course they do. but I was wrong in the sense, that if you don't mind weighing cost to safety, it is definitely safer. but not cheap by any means. I wonder how much power your long distance phone call costs, if it's from house phone to house phone and not via cell phone. obviously the amount of power your phone uses is nothing, but to transmit that call over such a long distance, you need quite a bit of power to send that signal. probably enough to run every device in your house. well... maybe, i don't know. but I figure.


I'll bet older phone companies spend quite a bit of money on energy costs.


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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InvisibleJohnnyConverse
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: ScavengerType]
    #14174110 - 03/24/11 03:56 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
mostly just the amounts of reports of cancer/birth defects in areas surrounding conflict zones that used DU, and the absence of such reports about coal plants. The reports of either are sketchy to quantify well, so that is why I used uncertain language to establish my claim.




Do you rationally understand the sheer fucking amount of D/U it would take to give someone cancer? and the type of exposure required? DU isn't giving people cancer in warzones.

If you made a coffin out of it and slept in it (OK so...maybe it's giving a few bradley crews cancer) you might get a significant dose off of it but significant DU emissions are confined to the alpha band

That's part of what makes it "D"

Now it's probably giving people a shitload of heavy metal poisoning and is almost certainly a teratogen, but that's another story


--------------------
I wasn't an activist until I got put in jail. I sat there in jail seeing what was really going on in America and something changed. Now when people say, "Tommy what was jail like?" I say "You'll see" -- Tommy Chong

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: JohnnyConverse]
    #14174225 - 03/24/11 05:13 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> DU isn't giving people cancer in warzones. ... you might get a significant dose off of it but significant DU emissions are confined to the alpha band

I'd be careful making such a claim.  Depleted uranium is relatively safe, but there are still health issues associated with it, especially when used in war zones.  You are correct, it is an alpha emitter, which means it is safe unless inhaled or ingested.  Unfortunately, uranium is pyrophoric and vaporizes when used as an armor piercing munition.  Inhaled or ingested alpha emitters are very nasty and are a serious cancer concern.  Additionally, depleted uranium decays into thorium-234 and protactinium-234, both of which are beta emitters.  A "real world sample" of DU will emit small amounts of gamma, and both beta and alpha at approximately the same rate.

> That's part of what makes it "D"

D means "depleted" and refers to the removal of the 235 isotope.  It does not mean safe.


--------------------
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