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Offlinelines
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Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea
    #14131885 - 03/16/11 03:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Looking at how much horror is created when a nuclear plant lets down maybe it is not such a good idea to use nuclear power. The risks outweigh the benefits.

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OfflineMchaggis
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: lines] * 2
    #14132087 - 03/16/11 04:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well its too late to turn back now.

It blows my mind how many people are unaware of the nuclear reactors around them all the time, possibly even powering the computer you're using. Check wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#United_States_of_America

20 minutes from my house in different directions there are 3 units in a nuclear power plant, three hydroelectric dams, and two steam (coal) plants

edit: You know, we hold back so much water with those hydroelectric dams, and it sure would cause a lot of horrible, terrible things if they broke or something, maybe we shouldn't use those either.

And come to think of it, electricity causes a lot of horrible, terrible things to happen in general. Maybe hiding naked in a cave would work?


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I am on a drug. It's called Charlie Sheen. It's not available because if you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body

Edited by Mchaggis (03/16/11 04:43 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: lines] * 1
    #14132096 - 03/16/11 04:32 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think it's a good idea to build outdated designs on extremely active fault zones.  And the Russians probably shouldn't build any.  But I have no problem with the one near here, which is also old design.  Some retarded politician said something about it being on a fault but that sucker hasn't done much of anything for millions of years.  I'm more concerned about asteroids and global warming idiots destroying the global economy.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14132125 - 03/16/11 04:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I've got an old outdated one I'm trying to sell on Craig's List. I'm asking $50 if anyone is interested. It hardly leaks at all.:satansmoking:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMchaggis
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: Icelander]
    #14132168 - 03/16/11 04:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

how bout you gimme ten dollars and me and jimmy john'll be over there directly to take it off your hands


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I am on a drug. It's called Charlie Sheen. It's not available because if you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body

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Offlineiluvfungi
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: Mchaggis]
    #14135233 - 03/17/11 04:16 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Nuclear power is horrible. Give solar power the same amount of time we've had to develop nuclear power. Wow it's a billion times better. Even better would be to start researching quantum physic's for a energy source today. I have no doubt nuclear power is a fucking joke compared to gathering energy from the neutrino, which is not a neutron.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: iluvfungi]
    #14135329 - 03/17/11 05:30 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I don't think it's a good idea to build outdated designs on extremely active fault zones.  And the Russians probably shouldn't build any.




Basically my feelings as well.  The concerning accidents of any import are generally completely idiotic: see the soviet disasters.  With private enterprise running the show and sufficiently liable, I don't see there's a big problem with nuclear power.

People I respect feel differently and are quite concerned with the waste issue, but I honestly never understood why that was really that difficult, but maybe I don't know enough to be aware of the problems.  Seems like as long as you have a decent space you can store the waste there without much need for cooling, right?  Isn't the cooling requirement tied to relatively dense storage plans?


What actually happened in Japan anyways?  Besides from the seemingly obvious issue of building a plant which requires structural integrity to not melt down on a fault line, the news has been typically poor.  From what I've heard: the plant(s) DID loose cooling, but might not have released signifigant waste and radioactive matter.  This seems strange to me as it was my understanding that that type of reactor required cooling to prevent melt downs.  Is this not the case?  Are automatic mechanisms sufficient to put the reactor in a safe configuration during coolling loss?
 
Quote:

iluvfungi said:
Nuclear power is horrible. Give solar power the same amount of time we've had to develop nuclear power.




?  We have.  People have been harnesing the sun forever.  Its not their fault it sucks ass for most applications we need power for.


Quote:

Wow it's a billion times better. Even better would be to start researching quantum physic's for a energy source today. I have no doubt nuclear power is a fucking joke compared to gathering energy from the neutrino, which is not a neutron.





Wow, fantastic. 

I don't get this naive faith in science: people who don't know wtf they're talking about but yet are nevertheless SURE that if they throw money and time at something that science will pop out some practical solution.  This kind of attitude seems to be pretty irresponsible and stupid.  If you don't have the answer, how can you be sure others do- especially given that they say they don't?

Seems just an appeal to ignorance:  "well shucks, I don't understand how any of that technology mumbo jumbo works, but they figured it out!  Its amazing!  Therefore, they surely can figure out how to use 'quantum physic's' and solar power to replace nuclear and coal"

:thumbdown:

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InvisibleTien
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: johnm214]
    #14135641 - 03/17/11 08:07 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Don't hate on Russians.
They've had plenty of reactors running for decades (109 to be exact). Chernobyl was just a very unfortunate accident.

Besides, Russians pioneered the first civilian nuclear generating station.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obninsk_Nuclear_Power_Plant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_reactors#Russia

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: Tien]
    #14136109 - 03/17/11 10:41 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Define "accident"?



They knew damn well that scenario could have happened and purposefully and knowingly skimped on not only logical reactor design and safety features, but containment structures in case the known defects did cause problems.

Then, to top it all off, they decide to dick around with a reactor at its most dangerous state in the fuel's lifespan and knowingly put it into a dangerous state to test what would happen if such a thing were to happen.  Oops.. guess they found out.

They had a bunch of people who didn't understand the reactor test critical features with a single point of failure that shouldn't have even been deemed acceptable in the first place.  Even if the test had succeded the system would have been prone to the same damn thing occuring next time, and without complete manuals of procedures and rules for the reactor's operation, it was pretty much an eventuality that some arrogant ass promoted due to politics rather than merit would fuck things up.

That the people operating the reactor were even put in such a position is unconscionable and a damning indictment of that government.

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InvisibleTien
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: johnm214]
    #14139088 - 03/17/11 08:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well fine.
Sure there was incompetence involved...which is not surprising because the entire soviet system was a product of incompetence.

Three Mile Island Accident, which is not on the same scale since it was only a partial melt-down didn't happen just because of technicalities either.....

"The mechanical failures were compounded by the initial failure of plant operators to recognize the situation as a loss-of-coolant accident due to inadequate training and human factors, such as human-computer interaction design oversights relating to ambiguous control room indicators in the power plant's user interface. "

With that said, as I mentioned in my previous post, there are 109 reactors operating on Russian territory. There's nothing wrong with them.
All I'm saying is you people talk about Russians like we're complete idiots...and that's not right. This is the nation that sent the first satellite AND man into orbit for crying out loud.

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: iluvfungi] * 2
    #14139234 - 03/17/11 08:22 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

iluvfungi said:
Nuclear power is horrible. Give solar power the same amount of time we've had to develop nuclear power. Wow it's a billion times better. Even better would be to start researching quantum physic's for a energy source today. I have no doubt nuclear power is a fucking joke compared to gathering energy from the neutrino, which is not a neutron.




I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're not an engineer or a scientist, and have very little knowledge about the actual amounts of energy produced through nuclear methods when compared to other methods.

PS - Yeah bro, we'll just harness the power of neutrinos! What an brilliant idea! Why haven't any scientists thought about this before?! You need to be put in a position of power so that you can tell scientists and engineers how things should be done! I mean, you must know more about energy production than those thousands of individuals who have dedicated their lives to studying and researching this topic, right?

Edited by HeavyToilet (03/17/11 08:33 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: Tien]
    #14142110 - 03/18/11 08:35 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Tien said:
Well fine.
Sure there was incompetence involved...which is not surprising because the entire soviet system was a product of incompetence.

Three Mile Island Accident, which is not on the same scale since it was only a partial melt-down didn't happen just because of technicalities either.....

"The mechanical failures were compounded by the initial failure of plant operators to recognize the situation as a loss-of-coolant accident due to inadequate training and human factors, such as human-computer interaction design oversights relating to ambiguous control room indicators in the power plant's user interface. "

With that said, as I mentioned in my previous post, there are 109 reactors operating on Russian territory. There's nothing wrong with them.
All I'm saying is you people talk about Russians like we're complete idiots...and that's not right. This is the nation that sent the first satellite AND man into orbit for crying out loud.



Yeah, and Muslims invented algebra.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: Tien]
    #14142995 - 03/18/11 12:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, I'm not hating on Russia necessarily, thought I'm definitely hating on the soviet system

I don't know enough about the russian use of nuclear power (russian federation or soviet system post-chernobyl) to have any opinion on them, but I'm sure they're not stupid or incompotent: they've been leaders in that field since it existed.  The problem during the soviet years with nukes, like most things, was politics and appearance over substance and lack of competition or free press to provide suitable alternatives or reveal shortcomings.


Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
Quote:

iluvfungi said:
Nuclear power is horrible. Give solar power the same amount of time we've had to develop nuclear power. Wow it's a billion times better. Even better would be to start researching quantum physic's for a energy source today. I have no doubt nuclear power is a fucking joke compared to gathering energy from the neutrino, which is not a neutron.




I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're not an engineer or a scientist, and have very little knowledge about the actual amounts of energy produced through nuclear methods when compared to other methods.

PS - Yeah bro, we'll just harness the power of neutrinos! What an brilliant idea! Why haven't any scientists thought about this before?! You need to be put in a position of power so that you can tell scientists and engineers how things should be done! I mean, you must know more about energy production than those thousands of individuals who have dedicated their lives to studying and researching this topic, right?




neutrinos, brah

There, I just solved the world's energy problems.

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Offlineamilibertine
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: johnm214]
    #14143902 - 03/18/11 03:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

What about geothermal energy?  Don't know how practical it is but it seems promising.

As far as nuclear power goes, I think it's here to stay until we find a suitable alternative to burning fossil fuels.  Wind and solar power both seem like a joke for most places and cost more money to build than the return you get in terms of actual energy.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: amilibertine]
    #14143989 - 03/18/11 04:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Geothermal is about the only one of the so called sustainable sources I can get behind.  But I do not mean for large scale electricity production.  I mean for individual houses to exploit for heat and AC.  I don't really know why it hasn't caught on.  Idiots buying Chevy Volts would be better advised to spend their money on heat and AC than buying vastly overpriced pieces of shit that no sane person would willingly drive.


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Offlineamilibertine
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14144033 - 03/18/11 04:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Geothermal is about the only one of the so called sustainable sources I can get behind.  But I do not mean for large scale electricity production.  I mean for individual houses to exploit for heat and AC.  I don't really know why it hasn't caught on.  Idiots buying Chevy Volts would be better advised to spend their money on heat and AC than buying vastly overpriced pieces of shit that no sane person would willingly drive.




Yeah, I should have been more clear. I was referring to individual use.  I've seen commercials here in Cincinnati for a company that will install geothermal generators for your house.

Although, I could see it being developed commercially someday in the future.  There's a lot of energy to be had inside the Earth.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #14144112 - 03/18/11 04:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What actually happened in Japan anyways?  Besides from the seemingly obvious issue of building a plant which requires structural integrity to not melt down on a fault line, the news has been typically poor.  From what I've heard: the plant(s) DID loose cooling, but might not have released signifigant waste and radioactive matter.  This seems strange to me as it was my understanding that that type of reactor required cooling to prevent melt downs.  Is this not the case?  Are automatic mechanisms sufficient to put the reactor in a safe configuration during coolling loss?




They have several problems going at the same time with the owners of the plant trying to talk down the significance of the problems in opposition to what the experts are saying.

The good news is that the reactors are "shut down" thus there is no chance of a run away nuclear reaction occurring such as what happened at Chernobyl.  The design of Japan's reactors is also different than Chernobyl, using water as a moderator rather than graphite, which is much safer.

The bad news is that the cooling system has failed.  This causes a multitude or problems.  Nuclear reactors run very hot and take a long time (months to years) to cool down without active cooling.  If the fuel rods get too hot, which happens when they are not actively cooled, they will begin to burn.  When they burn, they vaporize the enriched uranium, plutonium, and all of the radioactive waste that they contain.  As the pressure increases, the vapor has to be vented into the atmosphere to keep the reactor containment vessel from rupturing.  This is bad.  Not as bad as Chernobyl, but real, real close.

The next bad news is with the spent nuclear fuel rods.  When fuel rods are used up, they are too radioactively hot to handle safely.  They must spend a few years (or more) at the bottom of a pool of water allowing the really nasty radioactive waste time to decompose into something a little safer.  Unfortunately, in Japan, these pools are not being cooled and it is thought that the water has boiled away.  Unlike the reactor, these pools are open to the air, not contained in a pressure vessel.  If the water has boiled away, the spent fuel rods will heat up enough to burn, releasing all of their stored radioactive waste into the atmosphere without anything to stop them.

I expect the news from Japan to get a lot worse before it gets better.  I don't think it will be Chernobyl bad, but unless they get the cooling systems restored quickly, it will be very close.

> Chernobyl was just a very unfortunate accident.

Chernobyl was not an accident.  It was stupidity coupled with a really horrible reactor design.  There is no excuse for using graphite as a moderator in a civilian nuclear reactor.  There is no excuse for disabling all of the safety features in a live nuclear reactor to test a catastrophic failure scenario.  What you call an unfortunate accident I call the consequences of unfathomable stupidity.  If I put a loaded gun to somebodies head and pull the trigger to test the gun's safety mechanism, after I have disabled the gun's safety mechanism, is it an accident when I kill the person?  I don't think so.

The US has also had several close calls beyond three mile island.  There have been several close calls with experimental military nuclear reactors, such as Idaho Falls, etc.  We also almost lost Detroit (not really a loss, I know), Chernobyl style, due to a problem with an experimental breeder reactor, the Fermi 1, in 1966.  Ever wonder why the US is so opposed to breeder reactors?  Once bitten, twice shy...


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: amilibertine]
    #14144672 - 03/18/11 06:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

amilibertine said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Geothermal is about the only one of the so called sustainable sources I can get behind.  But I do not mean for large scale electricity production.  I mean for individual houses to exploit for heat and AC.  I don't really know why it hasn't caught on.  Idiots buying Chevy Volts would be better advised to spend their money on heat and AC than buying vastly overpriced pieces of shit that no sane person would willingly drive.




Yeah, I should have been more clear. I was referring to individual use.  I've seen commercials here in Cincinnati for a company that will install geothermal generators for your house.

Although, I could see it being developed commercially someday in the future.  There's a lot of energy to be had inside the Earth.



There are ways to exploit any temperature difference for energy generation.  I'm kind of disappointed that it is so poorly developed.  That's what happens when you let stupid people drive research into crap like wind and solar.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14144738 - 03/18/11 06:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

If you think it's so lucrative, why don't you sink some money into it? You're always talking about how much money you make employing dumb people. Just imagine how rich you could get by employing smart people.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Maybe Nuclear Power Is A Bad Idea [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #14144842 - 03/18/11 06:52 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

If you think it's so lucrative, why don't you sink some money into it? You're always talking about how much money you make employing dumb people. Just imagine how rich you could get by employing smart people.




It makes no sense to fight a corrupt system, as you will lose every time.  As an example, a non-profit company built a wind farm to provide alternative energy to the island where I live.  Our electricity costs nearly .50/kwh, compared to the .07 or so that most people pay.  For more than two years, the donated wind farm, that would provide free electricity, has been sitting idle because the power company, owned by the local government, will not allow them to operate.  Corruption at its best... I wonder who the oil companies are paying off... (our power plant runs on oil).


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Just another spore in the wind.

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