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InvisibleMonkeyKnifeFight
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14126732 - 03/15/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Fernando are you saying you spawn coffee to coffee?  Or are you using spent coffee substrate to spawn to more coffee?

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OfflineBlueLightRain
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: MonkeyKnifeFight]
    #14128819 - 03/16/11 01:59 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

monkeyknifefight - Yeah I actually tried something similar awhile ago with straw. I've found straw is more aerated and not too wet so it looses moisture much more easily. Just from looking at the cardboard I can tell the inside walls are slightly damp and brown from wicking a bit of the coffee moisture, but the coffee is dense and I think maintains more moisture. As a side note it seems like there is more substrate weight per cubic inch with coffee waste than straw, which may mean higher B.E. Time will tell!

fernando - thanks for the videos. I'll definitely attempt some coffee to coffee transfers. I'm with you on that, I think it is even more economical, and even more productive! What was your very first substrate? Agar --> coffee + cardboard? Mushroom spores --> coffee + cardboard? Which would make sense for a completely inexpensive production. This would remove the $0.25/lb I pay for grain :smile:


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InvisibleFernandoCastro
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw *DELETED* [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14129222 - 03/16/11 05:48 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14129536 - 03/16/11 08:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

FernandoCastro said:
When I got that few coffee blocks colonized, I saw this video

and gave a try to coffee-coffee spawning.




Is it me, or is that kinda unimpressive growth speed for oysters?


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InvisibleFernandoCastro
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Terry M]
    #14129705 - 03/16/11 09:23 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Depends on the spawn ratio, I guess


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InvisibleMonkeyKnifeFight
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14130269 - 03/16/11 11:42 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah cutting cardboard by hand is much more work than I thought it would be.  A chopper like in the vid would be awesome but doesn't look cheap.  Being able to grind up large quantities of cardboard would be awesome since there are many ways one could use it but it is a bitch to chop up and quantity by hand.

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OfflineBlueLightRain
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: MonkeyKnifeFight]
    #14130328 - 03/16/11 11:56 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Mmmm, cardboard noodles! But yeah, what monkeyknifefight said, "UK-SHREDDERS MD320SW CARDBOARD SHREDDERS STRIPS - £1499.00" Wow! That's for some serious production.

Thanks again for your insight fernando. The coffee to coffee inoculation is a great way to expand a resource. I'll definitely be doing it. Hope to see some flushes coming out of my coffee blocks in the coming weeks :smile: I'll experiment with the cardboard pieces once I get some success out of the coffee blocks. One step at a time, though.


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InvisibleFernandoCastro
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw *DELETED* [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14130855 - 03/16/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

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OfflineBlueLightRain
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14131596 - 03/16/11 03:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Fernando - Thanks again. Yeah, I've noticed the colonization times are drastically slower than straw. Less air and much more surface area than straw. Hope you find a shredder that works for you. I'll keep my eye out for products. Do update me when you find something useful. That cardboard noodle maker seems pretty badass and it seems most quality chippers are around that price. I wonder if a chipper would yield better pieces for you. Then again that cardboard shredder does seem pretty darn Swiss.


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InvisibleFernandoCastro
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14131881 - 03/16/11 03:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Glad that you brought that up... How much time does your blocks take?
Considering the ratio, weight, etc?


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OfflineBlueLightRain
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14137571 - 03/17/11 04:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

fernando - I haven't enticed any of the coffee blocks to fruit yet so I don't have any quantitative numbers, all in time though. I was thinking about your potential cardboard shredder purchase and I think from a business/commercial standpoint it's a smart idea. Taking an abundant waste and turning it into food is great and having one of those machines will take most of the labor out of the job and allow you to focus more on expanding your cultures/colonies through the use of grain spawn (or however else you do). I'm looking at my new cardboard spawn boxes and you're right, the mycelium loves the cardboard! It's sticking mostly to the moist cardboard and has even prevented me from lifting one of the flaps. This is just 3 days in. I think supplementing the coffee blocks with 50% cardboard is a smart move and I'll be doing some testing soon.
I think if you just look around and see what organic materials are most abundant and ask yourself how you can convert that into something the mushrooms can grow from you have yourself a successful business. The coffee is free and cardboard is free and ubiquitous. I get the impression that the cardboard doesn't even have to be pasteurized, just soaked for a few hours (or overnight) then drained properly. Add enough spawn and the mycelium will race through the carboard. Do you have any input on this subject fernando?

I have some pictures to support your comment you made a few posts ago. You said the mycelium loves the cardboard. Enjoy these photos to support your statement!

This box was made March 14 (3 days ago). I soaked the box prior to adding the coffee and grain. Resplendent mycelia! Notice the attachment of mycelia to the cardboard. This has me stroking my beard thinking about what fernando said about cardboard. This box is sitting outside in the permanent shade on the soil ground. Cool and decently humid.


This box was made March 14. I rubbed down the inside of the cardboard with water, but didn't soak it. I originally added coffee to the brim but it stuffed down from weight. This box is also outside in the shade.


Mycoporn to boot.


Here is a box made March 15 (2 days ago). No soaking of any sort prior to introduction of coffee and grain. I've notice the bottom is kinda damp from some excess coffee water soaking through, weakening the box's structure. I've placed it on an oven rack to let the bottom breathe. Sitting in my kitchen. Decent humidity (I live a block from the beach).


I looks like the mycelium is eating up the soaked cardboard faster than the dense coffee grounds. I'm just wondering how the yield is comparable on a wet weight basis. Shucks....time will tell. More experimenting. I think I'll be investing in a high quality ounce/pound scale soon.

fernando - Here is a concern of mine, and maybe you can give me your input. I noticed from the video of the cardboard shredder that it makes long noodles/strips. This is nice, but as far as stuffing that in a container, will the cardboard pack well? I'm thinking if it is soaked it probably will stuff well. If not then a chipper might be better suited. I have a good way of testing though. Take a straight edge and slice a bunch of strips of cardboard like that shredder does - nice and neat, then soak them and see how they work inside a container. When the cardboard is dry it probably isn't very malleable but if it's wet it will probably stuff well.


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InvisibleFernandoCastro
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw *DELETED* [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14139039 - 03/17/11 07:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

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OfflineBlueLightRain
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14139295 - 03/17/11 08:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Hmmmm...I did some experiments today and added about 10-20% damp cardboard into my boxes. First as a soaking layer and secondly interspersed with the coffee. I cut up large pieces and bent them into hot water, which soaked and softened the cardboard in a matter of minutes. Then the cardboard layers were easily peeled away and torn apart. Are you tearing your cardboard pre- or post-soak?

I've noticed so far that the bags aren't contaminating with any molds, but the first bags I did that had excess water have a bit of a brownish bacteria looking substance on the bottom. Not cool. My inoculating method involves lining the perimeter of the container with grain and then mixing it somewhat evenly in the central substrate. This makes spawn layers and seems to be warding off any external molds.

Also I was thinking about your means of soaking up excess water with dry cardboard. I have an interesting way to kill two birds with one stone. Once you have a substrate that is fully colonized, break it up into ten (thin) section or so and use that mycelial mat on the bottom layer of your new container. The mycelium is a sponge that soaks up water and will spread itself to anything that lands on top of it. Because the substrate on the bottom is already completely colonized my guess is that it will use any excess water toward its growth. Isn't this like soaking BRF cakes?


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InvisibleFernandoCastro
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw *DELETED* [Re: BlueLightRain]
    #14139382 - 03/17/11 08:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14148437 - 03/19/11 01:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I began my spent coffee grounds mixture experiment mentioned earlier in this thread, initially using 4 bags with Blue Oysters. I plan to add more bags with different mixtures.

I'll be keeping a grow log here:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14148387#14148387


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Invisiblelazy bones
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: Terry M]
    #14148813 - 03/19/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

OP- I haven't read the whole thread, but to you---have you any ornamental grasses around you? A week ago I spawned a used Oyster block to a mixture of compost and cut up Miscanthus grass. It's like pampas grass.

A week later, and the mycelium looks like it is enjoying the grass pretty well.

Maybe worth a shot for you? Lots of people need their ornamental grasses trimmed about now...

:smile:

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OfflineNSF
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: lazy bones]
    #14149560 - 03/19/11 05:22 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

That's a great idea lazy bones, pampas grass is a pretty much indestructable weed here. Did you dry it out at all?

I was just reading about oyster substrate experiments in mexico and one of the very best BE results came from corn cob leaf waste (better than the cobs and hulls).

They also used dried banana leaves and some other palm.


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Invisiblelazy bones
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: NSF]
    #14157992 - 03/21/11 05:18 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I did not dry it out per say, but it was cut dry from winter before it had started to grow again.

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Invisiblehelloworld
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: FernandoCastro]
    #14202412 - 03/29/11 06:03 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

What's up fellow growers!

I have been following the thread for a few weeks now and as it has gone a little quiet I thought I would contribute to the discussion with an update from my own project. I have also been experimenting with coffee grounds and oysters so I must pass on my thanks to FernandoCastro and BlueLightRain for the shared knowledge - I have been sharing the same troubles you have discussed here so your updates have been helpful. (p.s. BlueLightRain - the rigour displayed in your approach is commendable, hats off to you sir!)

It's my first venture into mushroom growing and the goal has been to develop a sustainable method of producing oysters from coffee grounds.
I started off using a ratio of 50:1 grounds to spawn (no additional supplements - no re-pasteurization either as I want to keep it low-tech and low-energy) but after mass contamination, lengthy colonization times and further reading I moved that up to 10:1, and today I will mix up a few at 5:1.

I have started adding torn card to the mix (I have access to an abundant local supply), with a dry top and bottom layer and cold-water soaked card added to the main substrate. BlueLightRain - I have also started noticing the brown bacteria, I will make some more packs tonight but will soak the card in boiling water, and I will also add some lime juice into the main mix.

My main reason for posting was to show a few pictures of the earlier packs that I have attempted to fruit. These packs are simply coffee grounds + commercial oyster spawn (millet) at a ratio of 20:1, left in a low light environment at 21c for 3 weeks. They were 'initiated' 7 days ago - put on a windowsill, around 14-18c, crosses were cut into the sides or the bag ends were cut off entirely, they have been misted 2-3 times daily. and rather than seeing mushrooms pinning, the mycelium appears to still be growing which leads me to believe that it had not yet fully colonized throughout the packs due to the dense structure of the grounds.













In the standing pack with the cross cut into it the myc appears to be coming through the cuts which I am hoping means that it is colonizing throughout the middle, this is a recent appearance which I assume the misting has encouraged.

Given it's my first attempt and having not seen any mushrooms produced I remain sceptical, however I am sure that this is oyster myc as it has a nice 'almond' type mushroom scent, so my question is this; do these packs look like they will fruit? how long should I keep misting for? I am looking for some reassurance as I am merely carrying on under the impression that they will start fruiting when they are ready?

Any advice will be appreciated and don't forget to keep up the discussion :grin:

Edited by helloworld (03/29/11 06:11 AM)

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OfflineNSF
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Re: Substrate Woes - No Straw [Re: helloworld]
    #14202495 - 03/29/11 06:49 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

helloworld said:
What's up fellow growers!

I have been following the thread for a few weeks now and as it has gone a little quiet I thought I would contribute to the discussion with an update from my own project. I have also been experimenting with coffee grounds and oysters so I must pass on my thanks to FernandoCastro and BlueLightRain for the shared knowledge - I have been sharing the same troubles you have discussed here so your updates have been helpful. (p.s. BlueLightRain - the rigour displayed in your approach is commendable, hats off to you sir!)

It's my first venture into mushroom growing and the goal has been to develop a sustainable method of producing oysters from coffee grounds.
I started off using a ratio of 50:1 grounds to spawn (no additional supplements - no re-pasteurization either as I want to keep it low-tech and low-energy) but after mass contamination, lengthy colonization times and further reading I moved that up to 10:1, and today I will mix up a few at 5:1.

I have started adding torn card to the mix (I have access to an abundant local supply), with a dry top and bottom layer and cold-water soaked card added to the main substrate. BlueLightRain - I have also started noticing the brown bacteria, I will make some more packs tonight but will soak the card in boiling water, and I will also add some lime juice into the main mix.

My main reason for posting was to show a few pictures of the earlier packs that I have attempted to fruit. These packs are simply coffee grounds + commercial oyster spawn (millet) at a ratio of 20:1, left in a low light environment at 21c for 3 weeks. They were 'initiated' 7 days ago - put on a windowsill, around 14-18c, crosses were cut into the sides or the bag ends were cut off entirely, they have been misted 2-3 times daily. and rather than seeing mushrooms pinning, the mycelium appears to still be growing which leads me to believe that it had not yet fully colonized throughout the packs due to the dense structure of the grounds.

Any advice will be appreciated and don't forget to keep up the discussion :grin:




Hey mate...well one thing I'd suggest is get a little more 3 dimensional in your spawning...you've got a log but it looks as though you've just put some spawn on the top.  How about next time when you pack your bag you do it with a piece of 15mm conduit down the middle (cut to just more than the length of your bag).  Or, if a tube isn't available then stand the back end of a wooden spoon in your coffee as you fill the bag.  Pack it in nice and tight, then gently and without too much wiggling pull the spoon out, then pour all your spawn down the centre and fill up the hole.  This will give you a strong core of mycelium that doesn't have a big distance to travel to colonise the whole bag.  It just has to move outwards, rather than outwards and down.  This should speed up your colonisation and reduce the chance of contams. 


PS.  There's no evidence you only put spawn in the top and didn't mix it through (which you can also do) I just really wanted to share this idea.


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