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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: Poid]
    #14127483 - 03/15/11 09:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"there's no way for us to identify something without the use of our perceptions"

Prove it.


--------------------

koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: Cups]
    #14127493 - 03/15/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:

Copout factor for sure.




I hear ya.  But isn't..at some point...an assumption involved that the waking consensual reality is "real".  I think that's why movies like the matrix are so creepy.

How would you ever know?




Thats a completely different question though.  You dont need to know the true reality to define it, it doesn't even need to exist to define it.  The fact is perception is not reality, generally by definition - regardless of how much we can know of reality.

Whether we are in the matrix, being deceived by descarte's demon, or stuck in plato's cave - there is a reality and our perceptions are some function of it.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: pfxtc]
    #14127512 - 03/15/11 09:40 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pfxtc said:
"there's no way for us to identify something without the use of our perceptions"

Prove it.


Establish or indicate who or what (someone or something) is.

Recognize or distinguish (esp. something considered worthy of attention)



One cannot indicate, recognize, or distinguish something from something else without perceiving that something; identifying something necessarily involves perception.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: Poid]
    #14127533 - 03/15/11 09:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

In your opinion.

A chair is a chair is a chair :shrug:

What you or I choose to think of that chair is completely up to us, and our perception.

This is the main point of Doors of Perception.


--------------------

koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report

Edited by pfxtc (03/15/11 09:46 PM)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: pfxtc]
    #14127557 - 03/15/11 09:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pfxtc said:
In your opinion.


Can you tell me how one might go about indicating, recognizing, or distinguishing something from something else without perceiving that something? :confused:


Quote:

pfxtc said:
A chair is a chair is a chair :shrug:

What you or I choose to think of that chair is completely up to us, and our perception.


Not sure what that has to do with anything. :justdontknow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: Poid]
    #14127631 - 03/15/11 09:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It has a DIRECT correlation to what you said.
An object is an object no matter what. We may label it or symbolize it, but it's an object nonetheless, despite how we decide to represent it to ourselves.


--------------------

koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: pfxtc]
    #14128367 - 03/16/11 12:03 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pfxtc said:
The "space" in which we inhabit has existed forever, and will always exist.




You're not concerned that this contradicts the standard cosmological theory of the Big Bang?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: pfxtc]
    #14128388 - 03/16/11 12:07 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pfxtc said:
An object is an object no matter what. We may label it or symbolize it, but it's an object nonetheless, despite how we decide to represent it to ourselves.


So?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: deCypher]
    #14128723 - 03/16/11 01:23 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

What is the theory of space? I'm not aware of it?

It seems that there has to be empty space outside of the big bang...

and if space is simply "empty" then why can't it exist forever?

I can understand why matter couldn't exist forever but why can't 'nothing' exist forever?

Or does 'nothing' actually not exist? and we simply have a paradoxical understanding of 'nothing' being 'something'?

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: durantz]
    #14129752 - 03/16/11 09:37 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

It seems that there has to be empty space outside of the big bang...




It may seem that way, but the experimental and observational evidence suggests otherwise.  Thats the crazy, and exciting thing about studying nature - she is not beholden to our beliefs or to what makes sense at all.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: DieCommie]
    #14130236 - 03/16/11 11:35 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

she is not beholden to our beliefs or to what makes sense at all.




Yes I agree with this!

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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: DieCommie]
    #14130242 - 03/16/11 11:36 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

pfxtc said:
The "space" in which we inhabit has existed forever, and will always exist.




You're not concerned that this contradicts the standard cosmological theory of the Big Bang?




No.

I'd say the "Big Bang" isn't unique, in fact I'd say they're quite common place. My "reasoning" is that Man tends to make himself the center of everything. Center of the Universe? Nope. Galaxy? Nope.. well fuck we gotta be center of something, so let's suppose our Universe is all there is.

Unlikely. I like reading on Carl Sagan's views of this issue. There's some good stuff on Pale Blue Dot regarding this subject.

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

pfxtc said:
An object is an object no matter what. We may label it or symbolize it, but it's an object nonetheless, despite how we decide to represent it to ourselves.


So?




Dude, use some fucking common sense. This is like the 3rd time you failed to understand correlations that I'm drawing between two subjects. I'm done.

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

It seems that there has to be empty space outside of the big bang...




It may seem that way, but the experimental and observational evidence suggests otherwise.  Thats the crazy, and exciting thing about studying nature - she is not beholden to our beliefs or to what makes sense at all.




Is there evidence that proves there was nothing around before the Big Bang?


--------------------

koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report

Edited by pfxtc (03/16/11 11:48 AM)

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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: durantz]
    #14130277 - 03/16/11 11:43 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

she is not beholden to our beliefs or to what makes sense at all.




Yes I agree with this!




That's the complicated part :lol:


--------------------

koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: pfxtc]
    #14130384 - 03/16/11 12:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Is there evidence that proves there was nothing around before the Big Bang?




Proves?  No.  Science doest work like that.  The evidence sure does suggest it though.

(I anticipate esoteric definitions of nothing and before ensuing...)

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: pfxtc]
    #14130390 - 03/16/11 12:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pfxtc said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

pfxtc said:
The "space" in which we inhabit has existed forever, and will always exist.




You're not concerned that this contradicts the standard cosmological theory of the Big Bang?




No.

I'd say the "Big Bang" isn't unique, in fact I'd say they're quite common place. My "reasoning" is that Man tends to make himself the center of everything. Center of the Universe? Nope. Galaxy? Nope.. well fuck we gotta be center of something, so let's suppose our Universe is all there is.


You think the standard cosmological theory of the big bang puts us at the center of the universe?

If we define universe as all there is then, by definition, the universe is all there is. :imslow:


Quote:

pfxtc said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

pfxtc said:
An object is an object no matter what. We may label it or symbolize it, but it's an object nonetheless, despite how we decide to represent it to ourselves.


So?




Dude, use some fucking common sense. This is like the 3rd time you failed to understand correlations that I'm drawing between two subjects. I'm done.


Jesus fucking Christ, man, you really have a lot of difficulty comprehending the concept of debate, don't you? When you are asked to defend your position, you don't take it personally like a little bitch and act like whoever is asking you to defend your position is stupid, you're supposed to just defend your position. If your defense is sound, then it will be apparent that I'm wrong, and if it's not sound, then you will be able to alter your argument so that it can be sound.


I just want you to be clear, what precisely is your point in mentioning what you mentioned there? If you don't even know what your point is, then admit it, there's no need to be ashamed; if you do, then it shouldn't be so frustrating to mention it.

I feel like you don't even have a sound point in mentioning this, or that the point you're trying to make is irrelevant, that's why I'm asking you to tell me what it is. Your point isn't clear, because there are many ways that the concept you mentioned correlates with mine; I just want to know which specific correlations you're talking about, and how they relate to the point you're trying to make. It seems like you are frustrated when asked to elaborate the correlations because you don't fully comprehend them enough to intelligibly type them out--if you did, then you wouldn't be so pissy (as you've been throughout this entire debate) when asked to, especially if you were confident about being right.

If you don't like being specific, then don't bother responding, I've "debated" with enough people who do not like to defend certain specific points that are contained in their argument when they are challenged.  :whatever:


Quote:

pfxtc said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

It seems that there has to be empty space outside of the big bang...




It may seem that way, but the experimental and observational evidence suggests otherwise.  Thats the crazy, and exciting thing about studying nature - she is not beholden to our beliefs or to what makes sense at all.




Is there evidence that proves there was nothing around before the Big Bang?


There is no "before" the big bang, because the big bang created time.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (03/16/11 12:17 PM)

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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: pfxtc]
    #14131489 - 03/16/11 02:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pfxtc said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Everything is a hallucination in my standpoint.




Lame.




Why?

Why is it lame? Explain yourself.

Everything we see is the result of electrical impulses being shot off in the brain. Sounds like hallucinations to me. Hallucinogens, as you call them, alter the generators of these signals, thus we are said to be hallucinating, when really, our brains are just interpreting things at a different rate due to various chemical processes.




It is easy enough to reduce these feelings, these perceptions we are self aware of, to nothing but the chemical reactions and molecular structures in the matter itself, But let me put it this way theres a color blind neuroscientist studying the perception of the color red. She carefully, meticulously  maps all the neural paths ways, gets PET scans of every flash of every neuron as the subject experiences its nails down the wavelength of light to 650 nm and compiles all this information. Does she know what it feels like to perceive this visual sensation of red? Is she any closer to finding out what it really looks like? If she was suddenly cured of her colourblindness and saw the color red for the first time would it be anything like she imagined it to be? Even with all that material knowledge she is no closer to knowing what the color is then when she began.

Edited by Bodhi of Ankou (03/16/11 02:50 PM)

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Offlinepfxtc
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14132245 - 03/16/11 05:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Quote:

pfxtc said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Everything is a hallucination in my standpoint.




Lame.




Why?

Why is it lame? Explain yourself.

Everything we see is the result of electrical impulses being shot off in the brain. Sounds like hallucinations to me. Hallucinogens, as you call them, alter the generators of these signals, thus we are said to be hallucinating, when really, our brains are just interpreting things at a different rate due to various chemical processes.




It is easy enough to reduce these feelings, these perceptions we are self aware of, to nothing but the chemical reactions and molecular structures in the matter itself, But let me put it this way theres a color blind neuroscientist studying the perception of the color red. She carefully, meticulously  maps all the neural paths ways, gets PET scans of every flash of every neuron as the subject experiences its nails down the wavelength of light to 650 nm and compiles all this information. Does she know what it feels like to perceive this visual sensation of red? Is she any closer to finding out what it really looks like? If she was suddenly cured of her colourblindness and saw the color red for the first time would it be anything like she imagined it to be? Even with all that material knowledge she is no closer to knowing what the color is then when she began.




What are you driving at?

I understand you're correlating between the actual "isness" of something and the way we perceive it, but the two seem to be very different.


--------------------

koods said:
Young male going by the name "Bassfreak" entered Worcester General complaining of a sharp pain in his buttock region after attending EDM event. Attending physician considered a possible diagnosis of acute rave anus, but upon further investigation it was determined there was nothing cute about patient's anus.

Life-long trip report

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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: pfxtc]
    #14132282 - 03/16/11 05:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I was driving at the idiocy involved in thinking of the brain as being nothing but its chemical constituents, and I see where basically on the same page here with your last post.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #14132751 - 03/16/11 06:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I was driving at the idiocy involved in thinking of the brain as being nothing but its chemical constituents





Well what more is there to the brain? I don't think it is unreasonable to believe that everything can be reduced to chemicals or energy.

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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: your thoughts on this [Re: durantz] * 1
    #14133053 - 03/16/11 07:27 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You can reduce it to that and at its core its nothing more then a 3 pound blob of neurons but science currently cannot explain or even begin to grasp how consciousness that is aware of its own awareness arises out of the organized neurons and there structures.

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