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NastyDHL



Registered: 04/04/08
Posts: 3,586
Loc: New England
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
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depth of fear
#14123519 - 03/15/11 02:19 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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whats the deeper fear...
fear of death?
or fear of not being loved?
...or is it the same thing?
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: depth of fear [Re: NastyDHL]
#14123566 - 03/15/11 02:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Fear of death, I'd say. Would you rather be dead or alive and unloved?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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NastyDHL



Registered: 04/04/08
Posts: 3,586
Loc: New England
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
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Re: depth of fear [Re: deCypher]
#14123577 - 03/15/11 02:47 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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i'd rather be dead than dying i think
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: depth of fear [Re: NastyDHL]
#14123621 - 03/15/11 03:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
NastyDHL said: whats the deeper fear...
fear of death?
or fear of not being loved?
...or is it the same thing?
Fear of death it seems
Fear of not being loved is fear of death imo. We survived because we were in groups. If you feel unloved you feel unwanted and not part of the group. This creates death anxiety.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head


Registered: 01/14/10
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Come ooooooonnnn.
Death isn't the ultimate fear, and fear isn't the ultimate emotion.
Death is probably just a weird experience, then you move on.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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yeah i agree death isn't the ultimate fear it is an underlying fear, so the physical intensity of its emotion isn't that strong. jumping out of a moving airplane if you were afraid of heights, that's mother fucking depth of fear.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
circastes said: Death is probably just a weird experience, then you move on.
When David Hume was dying a friend asked him if he believed in life after death. He is said to have answered: "It is also possible that a knob of coal placed upon the fire will not burn."
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
circastes said: Come ooooooonnnn.
Death isn't the ultimate fear, and fear isn't the ultimate emotion.
Death is probably just a weird experience, then you move on.
There is no ultimate emotion. Fear gets more play however so it dominates the scene in nature.
Of course the case can easily be made that your posts are very strong evidence of your unconscious death anxiety. You say things about this subject often and then produces no examples or evidence and when directly questioned you often disappear. IMO if most of your death anxiety is unconscious then you have a high degree of death anxiety. Those who consciously acknowledge their's have less.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Quote:
Those who consciously acknowledge their's have less.
I have death anxiety. I have death anxiety. I have death anxiety. I have death anxiety. I have death anxiety.
C'mon....work god dammit.
I have death anxiety. I have death anxiety. I have death anxiety. I have death anxiety. I have death anxiety.

There we go.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: depth of fear [Re: Cups]
#14125173 - 03/15/11 02:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's takes years of confronting it to make even slight progress. Which makes sense. Look how long we've had the program.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
circastes said: Come ooooooonnnn.
Death isn't the ultimate fear, and fear isn't the ultimate emotion.
Death is probably just a weird experience, then you move on.
There is no ultimate emotion. Fear gets more play however so it dominates the scene in nature.
Of course the case can easily be made that your posts are very strong evidence of your unconscious death anxiety. You say things about this subject often and then produces no examples or evidence and when directly questioned you often disappear. IMO if most of your death anxiety is unconscious then you have a high degree of death anxiety. Those who consciously acknowledge their's have less. 
do you believe that there are some of us whom don't have death anxiety?
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Death anxiety appears to be universal in humans; all humans are at least somewhat neurotic, and neuroses form as a result of death anxiety.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity
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Re: depth of fear [Re: Poid]
#14127866 - 03/15/11 10:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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if someone directly realized emptiness, there would be no basis for death anxiety to arise
such a person is quite rare though i imagine
i imagine there are other causes for people not to have death anxiety too
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: depth of fear [Re: deff]
#14127936 - 03/15/11 10:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said: if someone directly realized emptiness, there would be no basis for death anxiety to arise
What do you mean by 'emptiness'?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
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Re: depth of fear [Re: Poid]
#14127985 - 03/15/11 10:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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non-inherent existence of both self and all phenomena
it's a very heavy topic in buddhism (some people spend 20 years studying it) and i'm not very wise myself on it
but basically all phenomena are mere appearances to mind - names and concepts that are empty of any underlying reality/substance. so when we see a chair we think it's a singular entity called a chair that really exists outside of our mind, but looking at it from a closer perspective reveals there's just parts, and those parts are just atoms... etc - the chair is just a mental projection onto emptiness, which can be thought of as space as a metaphor (although it's more profound than this i gather) - so we can say a chair doesn't actually exist
the same is true of a personal self, as this is just mentally imputed onto aggregates, such as a body (itself just cells, molecules, etc), feelings, thoughts, consciousness etc - everything is compounded and therefore empty
if there's no inherently existing self or even an inherently existing body, then nothing really dies except ever-changing conceptual patterns in our mind. enlightenment is the complete realization of emptiness - which ends all suffering/grapsing/etc - it's said someone who has realized emptiness doesn't even feel pain anymore - it's that profound of a realization
understanding it intellectually doesn't help much though, it has to be meditated on repeatedly (whole lifetimes! lol) until one directly perceives emptiness, which is beyond all concepts and thus cannot be described. such a noble being as this would be beyond any death anxiety (or even the belief in death per se)
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
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Re: depth of fear [Re: deff]
#14128024 - 03/15/11 11:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said: if someone directly realized emptiness, there would be no basis for death anxiety to arise
such a person is quite rare though i imagine
i imagine there are other causes for people not to have death anxiety too
i'm beginning to think i have no death anxiety. and now before everyone starts bombarding me with criticism, i'd actually like to discuss the possibility of it. i seem to have no symptoms of death anxiety.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 8 hours, 16 minutes
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i think that's entirely possible \
though some might pose the thought-experiment of someone holding a gun to your head - where does the arising fear come from, if not some latent subconscious source?
though the impact that this affects an individual i think varies significantly, and in some people i imagine it's very little
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Re: depth of fear [Re: deff]
#14128038 - 03/15/11 11:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said: non-inherent existence of both self and all phenomena
it's a very heavy topic in buddhism (some people spend 20 years studying it) and i'm not very wise myself on it
but basically all phenomena are mere appearances to mind - names and concepts that are empty of any underlying reality/substance. so when we see a chair we think it's a singular entity called a chair that really exists outside of our mind, but looking at it from a closer perspective reveals there's just parts, and those parts are just atoms... etc - the chair is just a mental projection onto emptiness, which can be thought of as space as a metaphor (although it's more profound than this i gather) - so we can say a chair doesn't actually exist
the same is true of a personal self, as this is just mentally imputed onto aggregates, such as a body (itself just cells, molecules, etc), feelings, thoughts, consciousness etc - everything is compounded and therefore empty
if there's no inherently existing self or even an inherently existing body, then nothing really dies except ever-changing conceptual patterns in our mind. enlightenment is the complete realization of emptiness - which ends all suffering/grapsing/etc - it's said someone who has realized emptiness doesn't even feel pain anymore - it's that profound of a realization
understanding it intellectually doesn't help much though, it has to be meditated on repeatedly (whole lifetimes! lol) until one directly perceives emptiness, which is beyond all concepts and thus cannot be described. such a noble being as this would be beyond any death anxiety (or even the belief in death per se)
It's a theory...not a bad description Deff.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
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Quote:
meatcakeman said:
i'm beginning to think i have no death anxiety. and now before everyone starts bombarding me with criticism, i'd actually like to discuss the possibility of it. i seem to have no symptoms of death anxiety.
The "symptoms" of death anxiety extend so far into your day to day it's unlikely you are aware of it all. Maybe start by explaining why you feel you have no symptoms?
Also a great shield can protect you from it to the point you aren't consciously aware of it anymore.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
deff said: non-inherent existence of both self and all phenomena
it's a very heavy topic in buddhism (some people spend 20 years studying it) and i'm not very wise myself on it
but basically all phenomena are mere appearances to mind - names and concepts that are empty of any underlying reality/substance. so when we see a chair we think it's a singular entity called a chair that really exists outside of our mind, but looking at it from a closer perspective reveals there's just parts, and those parts are just atoms... etc - the chair is just a mental projection onto emptiness, which can be thought of as space as a metaphor (although it's more profound than this i gather) - so we can say a chair doesn't actually exist
I don't understand how the chair being made of parts means that it doesn't exist. 
Quote:
deff said: if there's no inherently existing self or even an inherently existing body, then nothing really dies except ever-changing conceptual patterns in our mind.
And this is what causes us anxiety; I don't see how there not being an inherently existing self is relevant.
Quote:
deff said: enlightenment is the complete realization of emptiness - which ends all suffering/grapsing/etc - it's said someone who has realized emptiness doesn't even feel pain anymore - it's that profound of a realization
This is no more than a fairy-tale IMO.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
deff said: if someone directly realized emptiness, there would be no basis for death anxiety to arise
such a person is quite rare though i imagine
i imagine there are other causes for people not to have death anxiety too
i'm beginning to think i have no death anxiety. and now before everyone starts bombarding me with criticism, i'd actually like to discuss the possibility of it. i seem to have no symptoms of death anxiety.
So you have no fears?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: depth of fear [Re: Cups]
#14128123 - 03/15/11 11:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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the thought of death does not fear me. i'm not sure exactly what such a fear implies about daily life, but i am far from concerned about the loss of my existence. years ago, through some tough tribulations, i learned to accept helplessness. i found it actually quite comforting because it made life easier. there was no longer any reason to question life since everything just is. helplessness became a reason for me to actually feel safe. it became the closest thing i had to destiny. this, itself, allowed me to come to terms with death. i realized that life is not life without death, just like a story is not a story without an ending. it dawned upon me that death was essential, possibly the greatest form of enlightenment. i'm actually pretty excited to die, naturally, mind you, not by murder. i feel like it could be the greatest experience known to man.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: depth of fear [Re: Poid]
#14128141 - 03/15/11 11:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
deff said: if someone directly realized emptiness, there would be no basis for death anxiety to arise
such a person is quite rare though i imagine
i imagine there are other causes for people not to have death anxiety too
i'm beginning to think i have no death anxiety. and now before everyone starts bombarding me with criticism, i'd actually like to discuss the possibility of it. i seem to have no symptoms of death anxiety.
So you have no fears?
yes i do have fears. but death anxiety doesn't affect all of your fears. you are neither a psychologist or a philosopher, so don't try to convince me otherwise. a precursory warning because i know how argumentatively feisty you are.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 8 hours, 16 minutes
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Re: depth of fear [Re: Poid]
#14128178 - 03/15/11 11:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: I don't understand how the chair being made of parts means that it doesn't exist. 
it's like a forest full of trees. really there is no 'forest' there's just a bunch of trees, and 'forest' is a convenient concept we project onto that group of trees. when i say a forest doesn't exist, i mean that the concept of a singular entity called forest doesn't and not that the comprising parts (trees) do not. but it becomes more profound when you realize that these trees are the same way - they're made up of elements assembled, there is no tree entity itself. and the elements made up of sub-atomic particles etc - some might infer that this goes on further and further and there is no 'smallest particle'. but even if there hypothetically is a smallest particle than this is still a composite phenomenon as it has location, direction, spin, speed, size, shape - all these attributes, which all are relative to the mind perceiving them.
there's many different arguments to enter into the view of emptiness, this argument of reducing things to parts is just one - there are more profound (and difficult to understand!) ones too, which also deal with how every phenomenon depends on mind (like 'a tree falling in a forest with no one to hear' etc)
i posted a text on emptiness here a while ago - http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12703926#12703926 it's more complicated to understand i think and requires multiple readings (at least for me) - but it's very profound i think
Quote:
Poid said: And this is what causes us anxiety; I don't see how there not being an inherently existing self is relevant.
if there is no inherently existing self, then nothing is lost. most people don't think "i don't want this body to die!" or "i don't want these thoughts to die"... they think "i don't want me to die" - referring to their selfhood/ego/individuality - which is really non-existent, so the primary basis for death anxiety i think is baseless
Quote:
deff said: This is no more than a fairy-tale IMO.
that's your take on it
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
meatcakeman said: i'm actually pretty excited to die, naturally, mind you, not by murder. i feel like it could be the greatest experience known to man.
That's a pretty good shield against death IMO. 
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
deff said: if someone directly realized emptiness, there would be no basis for death anxiety to arise
such a person is quite rare though i imagine
i imagine there are other causes for people not to have death anxiety too
i'm beginning to think i have no death anxiety. and now before everyone starts bombarding me with criticism, i'd actually like to discuss the possibility of it. i seem to have no symptoms of death anxiety.
So you have no fears?
yes i do have fears. but death anxiety doesn't affect all of your fears.
I didn't say death anxiety affects all of our fears, I'm just saying that all our fears are generated by death anxiety:
Anxiety and Fear
Quote:
Freud's reduction of death concern to a neurotic cover-up did not receive a strong challenge until Ernest Becker's 1973 book, The Denial of Death . Becker's existential view turned death anxiety theory on its head. Not only is death anxiety real, but it is people's most profound source of concern. This anxiety is so intense that it generates many if not all of the specific fears and phobias people experience in everyday life.
Quote:
meatcakeman said: you are neither a psychologist or a philosopher, so don't try to convince me otherwise. a precursory warning because i know how argumentatively feisty you are.
Nobody here is, but we don't have to be in order to understand certain psychological or philosophical concepts; we all have the right to share our views, nobody here is an expert. Besides, I've read the book Denial of Death so I'm pretty familiar with this concept.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (03/16/11 12:02 AM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: depth of fear [Re: deff]
#14128261 - 03/15/11 11:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said:
Quote:
Poid said: I don't understand how the chair being made of parts means that it doesn't exist. 
it's like a forest full of trees. really there is no 'forest' there's just a bunch of trees, and 'forest' is a convenient concept we project onto that group of trees. when i say a forest doesn't exist, i mean that the concept of a singular entity called forest doesn't and not that the comprising parts (trees) do not. but it becomes more profound when you realize that these trees are the same way - they're made up of elements assembled, there is no tree entity itself.
There's nothing profound about that at all IMO; forests are, by definition, a collection of trees. Just because a forest isn't a "single entity" doesn't mean that it's non-existent, as it's not defined as something that's a single entity.
Quote:
deff said: and the elements made up of sub-atomic particles etc - some might infer that this goes on further and further and there is no 'smallest particle'. but even if there hypothetically is a smallest particle than this is still a composite phenomenon as it has location, direction, spin, speed, size, shape - all these attributes, which all are relative to the mind perceiving them.
there's many different arguments to enter into the view of emptiness, this argument of reducing things to parts is just one - there are more profound (and difficult to understand!) ones too, which also deal with how every phenomenon depends on mind (like 'a tree falling in a forest with no one to hear' etc)
I don't see anything profound about the fact things are reducible to parts, or that a falling tree will not "make a sound" if nobody is around to hear it (if we define sound as a subjective experience, and not vibrating sound-waves). 
Quote:
deff said: i posted a text on emptiness here a while ago - http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12703926#12703926 it's more complicated to understand i think and requires multiple readings (at least for me) - but it's very profound i think
I'll check it out, thanks. 
Quote:
deff said:
Quote:
Poid said: And this is what causes us anxiety; I don't see how there not being an inherently existing self is relevant.
if there is no inherently existing self, then nothing is lost. most people don't think "i don't want this body to die!" or "i don't want these thoughts to die"... they think "i don't want me to die" - referring to their selfhood/ego/individuality - which is really non-existent, so the primary basis for death anxiety i think is baseless
That body and those thoughts are them, though, and that's what they're referring to when they think "I don't want to die.".
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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