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Offlinezappaisgod
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If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions.....
    #14120711 - 03/14/11 05:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You see, children, the problem with public sector unions is the vast power that the unions have to install politicians that are supposed to assume an adversarial position across the bargaining table.  When it is in the interests of a politician to pander to a hugely influential and deep pocketed group at the negotiating table then we have a situation in which the vast majority receive no representation.  This is not to be confused with lobbying over legislation, contract negotiations aren't legislation.  Nor is it to be confused with any voluntary contributions union members may give to politicians.  As it stands right now they are forced to give contributions to politicians they may well not support but which are selected by their union bosses.  But here we have the perfect evidence of just how much the politicians are in the pocket:

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/117941979.html

Quote:

MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- School boards and local governments across Wisconsin are rushing to reach agreements with unions before a new law takes effect that will remove their ability to collectively bargain over nearly all issues other than minimal salary increases.

Secretary of State Doug La Follette said Monday he decided to delay publication of the law until the latest day possible, March 25, to give those local governments as much time as possible to reach agreements. The law doesn't take effect until the day after La Follette publishes it.




Why would they be rushing to make agreements before they get a better bargaining position?  Because they are owned and want to make sure their masters see their fealty.  Meanwhile everybody else gets screwed.  Secretary of State Doug La Follette is a Dem.


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OfflineDave Bowman
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14120814 - 03/14/11 06:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I don't understand why more people don't get this...

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: Dave Bowman]
    #14120832 - 03/14/11 06:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Most people identify with and support losers because they are insecure.


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OfflineTaco Chef
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14121360 - 03/14/11 07:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

oh yes it has nothing to do with the far vaster power of corporations to " to install politicians".


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: Taco Chef]
    #14122146 - 03/14/11 09:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

novumorganum said:
oh yes it has nothing to do with the far vaster power of corporations to " to install politicians".





Huh?

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OfflineSmackshadow
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Registered: 09/27/05
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14123103 - 03/15/11 12:24 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

From the article Zappa cites:
"The Madison school board met in a marathon 18-hour session Friday night to reach an agreement with the local teachers union to approve a new contract that runs through mid-2013.

That agreement freezes wages and requires the same pension contribution as state workers will be required to pay starting later this month under the new law. It also allows the district to require health insurance premium contributions up to 5 percent in the first year of the deal and up to 10 percent in the second year."




Ya school boards sure love those unions, they gave them frozen salaries, gave them the same pension contributions that were mandated in the NEW law, and raised the teachers individual health care contribution.  They really sold the Wisconsin citizen down the river for their union friends. LOL


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The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14124263 - 03/15/11 09:25 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

They should hammer them harder.  That's their job.  What was the rush to make a deal before the new law takes effect?  They essentially rushed to make a deal before they got a stronger bargaining position.  What kind of idiot does that?  Phony baloney bullshit.


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14126321 - 03/15/11 06:03 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You see, children, the problem with corporations is the vast power that the corporations have to install politicians that are supposed to assume an adversarial position across the bargaining table.




Fixed that for you


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Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

LAGM2024

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14126622 - 03/15/11 07:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Quote:

You see, children, the problem with corporations is the vast power that the corporations have to install politicians that are supposed to assume an adversarial position across the bargaining table.




Fixed that for you



You live in a fantasy land.  Say, do you know who owns corporations?  People.  A lot of the owners of corporations are, wait for it, union trust funds............ WHOA!


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14126892 - 03/15/11 07:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Why would they be rushing to make agreements before they get a better bargaining position?  Because they are owned and want to make sure their masters see their fealty.  Meanwhile everybody else gets screwed.  Secretary of State Doug La Follette is a Dem.




Probably because the people making the agreements support union rights. Probably because they are not worthless assholes and don't actively want to screw over workers. That's the problem with the conservative doctrine. It's soulless. Why would people do something that won't get them the most possible money? Why would people not try to screw over their neighbors? You can't even fathom it.


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Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

LAGM2024

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Offline4896744
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14127017 - 03/15/11 08:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Quote:


Why would they be rushing to make agreements before they get a better bargaining position?  Because they are owned and want to make sure their masters see their fealty.  Meanwhile everybody else gets screwed.  Secretary of State Doug La Follette is a Dem.




Probably because the people making the agreements support union rights. Probably because they are not worthless assholes and don't actively want to screw over workers. That's the problem with the conservative doctrine. It's soulless. Why would people do something that won't get them the most possible money? Why would people not try to screw over their neighbors? You can't even fathom it.




The conservative doctrine is much more "natural". It basically is survival of the fittest for organizations. Without this natural selection you get completely inefficient organizations. The free market system of pricing is also the most efficient way for distributing resources perfectly according to people's wants.


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Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: 4896744]
    #14128096 - 03/15/11 11:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The problem with this so called "natural" economic doctrine is that conservatives and their corporate buddies are constantly working to turn the system to their favor. The economic principles that we see espoused by the republican party are aimed at diverting wealth to the wealthy at the expense of working class people. They claim that this "pure" form of capitalism will benefit everyone, and that it will result in the freest possible society. The reality, what we have seen throughout history, is unemployment, the disenfranchisement of workers through breaking unions, and massive increases in corporate earnings. The fact is pure free market capitalism is exactly like communism, it only works in theory. Ideally the United States should work towards improving the quality of life for all citizens, not only the rich.


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Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up

LAGM2024

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14128421 - 03/16/11 12:13 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
The problem with this so called "natural" economic doctrine is that conservatives and their corporate buddies are constantly working to turn the system to their favor. The economic principles that we see espoused by the republican party are aimed at diverting wealth to the wealthy at the expense of working class people. They claim that this "pure" form of capitalism will benefit everyone, and that it will result in the freest possible society. The reality, what we have seen throughout history, is unemployment, the disenfranchisement of workers through breaking unions, and massive increases in corporate earnings. The fact is pure free market capitalism is exactly like communism, it only works in theory. Ideally the United States should work towards improving the quality of life for all citizens, not only the rich.




If you don't trust the state to run a communist state, and you don't trust them to run a capitalist state, why do you trust them to run whatever it is you're talking about?

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14128564 - 03/16/11 12:46 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

He already said--capitalist/communist governments only work in theory. It's possible that a government which is a blend of both would work both in theory and practice.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: Poid]
    #14129101 - 03/16/11 04:13 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> It's possible that a government which is a blend of both would work both in theory and practice.

And it is possible that monkeys might fly out of your... lots of things that are possible seldom happen in the really real world.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: Seuss]
    #14129113 - 03/16/11 04:22 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You're comparing the likelihood of there being a stable government that is a blend of both capitalism and communism to the likelihood of monkeys flying out of my ass? Why? :confused:


Those things aren't even remotely close to being equally likely...:goatse:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: Poid]
    #14129157 - 03/16/11 04:49 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

> Why? :confused:

Because, in my opinion, both are equally likely to happen.  History has shown us time and time again that communism fails.  The only way for communism to succeed is to hold a population hostage by the government.  History has shown us time and time again that authoritarian governments fail.  The people eventually get tired of being controlled and revolt.  With this in mind, the chances of government that blends capitalism and communism together being able to last is next to zero.  Look at China for a great real world example.  The only reason the Chinese government is able to survive is because of their brutal human rights practices against their own population.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #14129684 - 03/16/11 09:15 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
Quote:


Why would they be rushing to make agreements before they get a better bargaining position?  Because they are owned and want to make sure their masters see their fealty.  Meanwhile everybody else gets screwed.  Secretary of State Doug La Follette is a Dem.




Probably because the people making the agreements support union rights. Probably because they are not worthless assholes and don't actively want to screw over workers. That's the problem with the conservative doctrine. It's soulless. Why would people do something that won't get them the most possible money? Why would people not try to screw over their neighbors? You can't even fathom it.



Gastro, in his great glorious confusion has managed to make my point perfectly, to wit that the taxpayer has no, or at best weak, representation at the public sector union bargaining table.  The taxpayer who is himself a working person.  The 90% of the population that actually pays the salaries of public sector unions.  The great majority who gets screwed at the bargaining table because the people who are supposed to be representing them are beholden to their adversaries.  Why, gastro, do you insist on granting preferred status to public union workers at the expense of everybody else?

Quote:

Gastronomicus said:
The problem with this so called "natural" economic doctrine is that conservatives and their corporate buddies are constantly working to turn the system to their favor. The economic principles that we see espoused by the republican party are aimed at diverting wealth to the wealthy at the expense of working class people. They claim that this "pure" form of capitalism will benefit everyone, and that it will result in the freest possible society. The reality, what we have seen throughout history, is unemployment, the disenfranchisement of workers through breaking unions, and massive increases in corporate earnings. The fact is pure free market capitalism is exactly like communism, it only works in theory. Ideally the United States should work towards improving the quality of life for all citizens, not only the rich.




1.  There is not nor has there ever been "pure capitalism".  Never will be, either, as long as there are governments.  All we can consider is what is an appropriate level of government interference.  Conservatives say less.  Socialists say more.  One thing that has been made abundantly clear throughout history is that socialism is an abject failure.  Most people stop striving.  Happens every time.
2.  The government doesn't have to "divert" wealth to the rich.  There's a reason why they are rich.  They don't suck at life.  They are, for the most part, smarter and work harder than the vast bulk of the population.  "Everybody's Working for the Weekend".  Not everybody, losers, not everybody.
3.  Unionism causes more unemployment through protectionism, industry destruction and competitive disadvantage than a free market for labor, not the opposite.
4.  Non-union workers are not disenfranchised.  By far the greatest portion of the working force is non union.  They are not helpless and have greater freedom for not having closed shops.
5.  There is nothing wrong with profit (eeevul "corporate earnings").. Why do you think companies exist?  To make money for their owners, NOT to provide make work jobs to an inept cadre of slunks and mugwumps.  And do you know who owns those corporations that make nasty ass profits?  People.  Lots of regular people and their pension funds that are there to pay for their retirement.  If not for corporate profits, which generate huge tax revenue, where would they invest those retirement funds to get a similar return?  Not in your backroom grow op, that's for sure.
5.  The people of the United States should work to improve their own lives and the government should stop thwarting them through wealth confiscation and misguided social engineering.  Most losers are not losers through misfortune, they are victims of the grievance scammers and other flim flam men who rile them up by corrupting an aspirational society that admires success to an envious society that seeks to drag all men down into a slough of mediocrity.  Harrison Bergeron, call your office.  The Rise of the Mediocrity is upon us.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14129733 - 03/16/11 09:31 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The Rise of the Mediocrity is upon us.




True words.

Our government and it's policies have turned this nation (and the same can be said for most nations) into a bunch of shitbags with an unrealistic and undeserved sense of entitlement.


It's pathetic.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: If any of you had any doubt that the people representing you are owned by unions..... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14129738 - 03/16/11 09:33 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
One thing that has been made abundantly clear throughout history is that socialism is an abject failure.  Most people stop striving.  Happens every time.


Striving for what?


Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The Rise of the Mediocrity is upon us.


All hail mediocrity! :bowdown:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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