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ZenXi6
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Tea Party Politics comes to Australia
#14120639 - 03/14/11 05:35 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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For any Australian Shroomerites, you might've already heard about this.
In recent months, there has been a push from some in our conservative party (Liberal Party) toward a more aggressive and fear mongering style of polit(trick)ing. "Tony Abbott’s decision to fight the next election in Tea Party mode is taking the Liberal Party - and Australia - towards a new kind of politics.
It’s been a long while since a campaign of fear-driven street demonstrations has been used to propel someone into office. His call for a ‘people’s revolt’ will see a series of protest demonstrations, starting in Canberra next week.
Abbott wants to mimic the rise of the powerful ‘Tea Party’ movement in the US which has helped undermine the presidency of Barack Obama. The Tea Party phenomenon had a big impact in recent US elections and it has spawned extremist fervour one consequence of which was the attempted assassination of the US Congresswomanx, Gabrielle Giffords. In Australia, this new politics also involves anonymous death threats and enormous personal pressure on the two independent MPs whose support is crucial for Labor."- ABC NewsThere were protests on the weekend where conservatives, pushed by redneck radio "shock jocks" (from top rating stations in Melbourne like 3AW and Sydney like 2GB) and politicians from the far-right of the spectrum aimed to pose as a grassroots movement against a proposed tax on carbon, along with protesting against the very existence of any change in our climate what so ever. 400 people turned up to this protest in Melbourne's west. In Melbourne's CBD, a rival protest was organised to send a different message - That Australians do want to look after the environment, that we do accept environmental economic responsibility, that we want a future for everyone. Around 7,500 people turned up to this protest.  ----- I understand the points that the far-right are trying to argue against. Essentially traditional conservative politics, to my understanding, has been about less government intervention with our every day lives. Therefore taxation is not considered highly in this system. But, I think even sensible conservative political figures understand that for our SHARED resources (land, water, minerals, forests, oceans etc..), we need fair grounds on how we are to use, farm, mine etc. these resources. When it comes to pollution, industries, companies, individuals should all be looking to make as little negative impact as possible. Sometimes, it is a fact of an industry that something is a by-product of what they do. To tax this means that the people as a whole get to define standards of environmental expectation, rather than a business (which is likely to define standards economically, rather than ethically), and it also means that the government can then fund projects to look after our shared resources. This seems fairly basic logic to me... private enterprise has proved that above all, profit reigns king. Although a lot of the time to make profit, a business must be run ethically for people to want it, this isn't really a reality. (This is kind of similar to people idolizing communism). Clever marketing, monopolising and other such methods of business can mean it becomes rather easy to lower standards and higher profit. So, we expect our government to make sure all the checks and balances are in place.
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seeker28
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
#14157743 - 03/21/11 02:39 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's pathetic superficial slander by Murdoch and the gang which is getting in the way of the health and longevity of our planet.
What city are you in, bruzzef? Adelaide? If so, we've got a March for Survival happening on the 26th - just putn' it out there.
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Seuss
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
#14158114 - 03/21/11 06:32 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Tea Party phenomenon had a big impact in recent US elections and it has spawned extremist fervour one consequence of which was the attempted assassination of the US Congresswomanx, Gabrielle Giffords.
What a load of crap. As has been pointed out numerous times, the yoyo that tried to assassinate Gabrielle was insane. Before insanity, he was a lefty... about as polar opposite from the tea party movement as one can get.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Seuss]
#14159021 - 03/21/11 12:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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And yet the slander, once stated, continues. Who was it who said a lie repeated enough.............?
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ZenXi6
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: seeker28]
#14160135 - 03/21/11 04:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
seeker28 said: It's pathetic superficial slander by Murdoch and the gang which is getting in the way of the health and longevity of our planet.
What city are you in, bruzzef? Adelaide? If so, we've got a March for Survival happening on the 26th - just putn' it out there.
I'm in Melbournetown, thanks for letting me know though! I dunno how well that style of politicking would work in Australia, although similar to the U.S. system.. we have fairly vast differences too.
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seeker28
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: zappaisgod]
#14160610 - 03/21/11 06:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: And yet the slander, once stated, continues. Who was it who said a lie repeated enough.............?
Climate change is factual. Anthropogenic Climate Change is factual.
Anyone with half a brain can work that out: "derrrrrr,, industrial revolution derrrrrr,, environmental degradation happening at the same time,, derrrrr!!"
or
"derrrrrr I like car derr, but oil finite derrrrrr,, I like. heater. derrr but coal finite derrrrr,, wait a minute!! derrr what about the future of this planet?!? derrrr*head explodes*"
Not to mention the peer-reviewed science that points overwhelmingly in favour of anthropogenically caused climate change.
Profit-before-people spells the demise of this planet, but you don't give a rat's, do you?
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Seuss
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: seeker28]
#14160691 - 03/21/11 06:24 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
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> Anthropogenic Climate Change is factual.
This is not the fantasy forum... please keep discussion to politics.
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seeker28
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Seuss]
#14163194 - 03/22/11 05:36 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Anthropogenic Climate Change is factual.
This is not the fantasy forum... please keep discussion to politics.
Umm, don't mean to come across as rude, but it's not fantasy, it's reality. with accredited scientists, climate scientists, as in people whose daily occupation it is to research our changing climate, in 90% agreeance that climate change is anthropogenically catalysed, there's not much doubt in my mind.
Want to brush me off as fantastical? Then you're brushing off the researched and peer-reviewed opinions of scientists worldwide as well. Not to mention Professor John Garnaut.
Or wait, you want us to discuss politics? As in the games people play with the masses in order to stay in power, in order to keep being fed by multinational corporations, oil and fossil fuel lobbies?
With all due respect, Doctor, you're not living up to your name.
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Seuss
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: seeker28]
#14163283 - 03/22/11 06:22 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Reading comprehension... please keep discussion to politics.
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jebustrist
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Seuss]
#14164742 - 03/22/11 01:49 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Dude, you're not going to convince people of AGW, they're the same people that still choose to disbelieve in evolution, moon landings and the holocaust. You can only hope to minimize their influence and watch their numbers dwindle as they die to any number of natural disasters and old age, much like racists.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
#14165277 - 03/22/11 03:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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AGW is a hoax.
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ZenXi6
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: zappaisgod]
#14166313 - 03/22/11 06:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't know if Global Warming is the term people are flaunting... I thought it was Climate Change (which is far more complex than just static rises in temperatures across the globe).
I've never heard a scientist deny this. I've heard some people say they don't think human activities are effecting this, but regardless, there is an overarching point that remains:
Pollution causes damage to the environment - We should pollute less and create a sustainable future.
Who cares about the ins and outs of a theory, when the polluting and unsustainability continues?!
This metaphor is precisely what's happening:
Why are we all standing around, trying to figure out who started the fire, while the whole house burns down?! THE HOUSE IS STILL ON FIRE!!
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jebustrist
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
#14166791 - 03/22/11 08:04 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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'Climate change' is a term that was invented by republican strategists because it is less alarming to people than 'global warming'. The reality remains the same: human industrial activity is releasing any number of gases and byproducts which are increasing the average temperature of the planet - that is not debated and anyone that has seriously studied the issue agrees. Some places will become colder, some hotter, wetter, dryer etc; climate is the result of an incredibly complex dance of variables that operate on times and scales far beyond those of an individual human life. The planet is getting warmer though. 2010 was the hottest year on record. 2009 was the second warmest. The 2000s were the warmest decade on record. Record-breaking extreme weather is become de rigueur, the planet is approaching its limits.
I almost look forward to laughing in the face of all the reality-denying, mostly conservative, conspiracy whackjobs when we have record sea-levels in 30 years. I suppose they'll either conveniently forget ever having disbelieved or say something like "it's still not clear this isn't just a natural cycle...the sun is getting warmer!"
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ZenXi6
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
#14166853 - 03/22/11 08:25 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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lol... yeah, that's the problem with those that deny the facts in front of them.. they'll just change the language and live in their own little subjective havens until the cows come home.
Why these stupids have any say in public matters still plagues me... only GOD knows.. HA. But, while they put themselves in to the public sphere, they must be ridiculed and their opinions shown for what they are (x-arguments) at every point.
We shouldn't even have to waste time appeasing the subjectivitists out there
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ZenXi6
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
#14166867 - 03/22/11 08:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh, and for the latest:
The Age - Canberra Carbon Tax Protest
And Tweets straight from The Age reporter Katharine Murphy, TWITTER - Murpharoo
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seeker28
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
#14168396 - 03/23/11 04:24 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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I wish this was facebook so I could like your and jebustrist's comments.
It's nice to finally have some backing here against "horrid asshole"'s like zappaisgod.
I was so angry watching the 7:30 report this evening with all those rednecks and tories waving placards wearing their gucci sunglasses and pearl necklaces. Seriously, fuck them. fuck them all to hell. And to think people like us are campaigning for the security of their futures as well..
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seeker28
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
#14168431 - 03/23/11 05:00 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Furthermore, is it just me or is there a misnomerious vibe around these parts, perpetuated by a select arguably influential few, not naming any names, that being a climate sceptic/denier is an elitist position?
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Starter
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: seeker28]
#14168883 - 03/23/11 09:21 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
And to think people like us are campaigning for the security of their futures as well..
Could you explain how a 'carbon tax', as put forward by Gillard, will save the world?
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jebustrist
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Starter]
#14168961 - 03/23/11 09:47 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Starter said: Could you explain how a 'carbon tax', as put forward by Gillard, will save the world?
No one action will be enough to solve the problem of global warming, but taxing carbon emissions will begin to restore free market pressures to the power industry. Coal plants are relatively cheap to produce, but carry an host of hidden costs that are present in their emissions and their negative health effects. By properly factoring in these costs as a tax on carbon emissions we can begin to reflect the true cost of burning coal and provide an incentive to transition to other technologies which emit less carbon, as well as providing a boost to all the innovators working on low-carbon solutions. Sustainability is going to be a part of the Third Industrial Revolution and those that lead the way will surely reap the economic benefits.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
#14169308 - 03/23/11 10:56 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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The climate changes constantly and has changed constantly for the 4 billion years that the Earth has existed. Sometimes it is warmer, sometimes it is colder. There is zero evidence that CO2 emissions are a driver of planetary heating and in fact, based on the historical record, seem to be a trailing indicator vis-a-vis temperature. There is a giant ball of fusion 93M miles away that has far more effect than anything else regarding our climate. There is no overall demonstrable harm in a warmer planet. Just shifting local weather issues which will be to the advantage of some areas and the detriment of others. Boo hoo, change is constant. Finally, any efforts to restrict human caused CO2 emissions will be severely deleterious to the quality of life of the humans on this planet. All of them.
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jebustrist
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: zappaisgod]
#14169717 - 03/23/11 12:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Almost that entire post is factually inaccurate. While higher levels of CO2 might have been a trailing indicator in the past, the increased levels of CO2 in our atmosphere have been proven to be the result of human activity. Only a small amount of the warming observed in the last century is attributable to increased solar activity. I would address the rest of the arguments, but it's pointless. Just like every other conspiracy theorist and evolution denier, you'll simply continue pointing out minor gaps in our understanding rather than looking at the broad picture.
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Phred
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
#14170249 - 03/23/11 01:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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This is not the forum in which to argue over the science (or pseudo-science) underpinning the claims that man's burning of stuff will lead to catastrophic consequences for humanity. If that's what you want to do, go to the Science and Technology forum or to the Conspiracies and Coverups forum.
Get back to the topic of the original post - Australia's nascent "Tea Party" movement and the reaction to it by those who favor big government.
Phred
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zappaisgod
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
#14171342 - 03/23/11 04:56 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
jebustrist said: Almost that entire post is factually inaccurate. While higher levels of CO2 might have been a trailing indicator in the past, the increased levels of CO2 in our atmosphere have been proven to be the result of human activity. Only a small amount of the warming observed in the last century is attributable to increased solar activity. I would address the rest of the arguments, but it's pointless. Just like every other conspiracy theorist and evolution denier, you'll simply continue pointing out minor gaps in our understanding rather than looking at the broad picture.
Even if increased CO2 has been proven to be the result of human activity, and I do not concede the accuracy of that assertion, what most certainly has not been proven in any way at all is that it is causing climate change. The simple fact that CO2 has in the past been a trailing indicator, as you concede, points to the exact opposite conclusion, to wit, that the increase in CO2 levels is a result of warming and not a cause of it.
Further, there is no evidence that a warming planet is overall harmful. The worst times for humanity were during the Little Ice Age. Some areas will benefit and some will not.
Further, and here is the political part of this, any effort to restrict energy use is a death sentence for millions of people and a surefire method for ensuring continued and increasing poverty for a vast portion of the world's population.
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Phred
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: zappaisgod]
#14171379 - 03/23/11 05:04 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Zappaisgod, what part of
Quote:
This is not the forum in which to argue over the science (or pseudo-science) underpinning the claims that man's burning of stuff will lead to catastrophic consequences for humanity. If that's what you want to do, go to the Science and Technology forum or to the Conspiracies and Coverups forum.
Get back to the topic of the original post - Australia's nascent "Tea Party" movement and the reaction to it by those who favor big government.
are you having difficulty grasping? Cut this "squeeze in the last word" shit out and get back on topic.
Phred
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ZenXi6
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
#14171576 - 03/23/11 05:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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This is exactly the problem with the debate, and exactly what this (Tea Party) style of politics is doing to debating.
It's hard for people to generally trust facts in the world today, because although an overarching prominent scientific theory may be the rational side of something, as soon as other things, like the economy get involved, any rationality goes out the window in favour of emotion.
Emotion is an easy card to play for big business, media and government. People will put all logic aside when they're told something emotionally powerful enough (And there aren't too many more powerful things that have been used over time by authority organisations than FEAR)
The Abbott camp, on this issue, aren't actually debating the Carbon Tax, per se. They've taken it to another level - a level of denying the very facts UNDERLYING the policy in the first place.
This sort of politics, using people's fear and emotions for political and financial gain, is one of the most perverse uses of power I've seen in my lifetime.
Before someone says the other side do the same, there are some vast differences i'd like to point out:
a) The science is overwhelmingly on the side of those calling for more sustainable policy.
b) The people behind the push for this have a LOT to gain from the outcome they desire - direct financial outcome for the big businesses, who's short term plan doesn't include "wasting" money on having to make their business sustainble (although one day, that will become inevitable - but they'll hold off for as long as possible)
c) One side pushes fear, while another pushes progress... I'd be more inclined to think that the progressive side are more likely to be thinking of, not just themselves, but also everyone around them, and everyone that will be around for many generations... while fear (without acceptance of that fear) creates negative people who don't want to change anything.. and probably want everyone to live by their exact rules too.
This politicking is ideologically dangerous.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
#14171618 - 03/23/11 05:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ZenXi6 said: This is exactly the problem with the debate, and exactly what this (Tea Party) style of politics is doing to debating.
It's hard for people to generally trust facts in the world today, because although an overarching prominent scientific theory may be the rational side of something, as soon as other things, like the economy get involved, any rationality goes out the window in favour of emotion.
Emotion is an easy card to play for big business, media and government. People will put all logic aside when they're told something emotionally powerful enough (And there aren't too many more powerful things that have been used over time by authority organisations than FEAR)
The Abbott camp, on this issue, aren't actually debating the Carbon Tax, per se. They've taken it to another level - a level of denying the very facts UNDERLYING the policy in the first place.
This sort of politics, using people's fear and emotions for political and financial gain, is one of the most perverse uses of power I've seen in my lifetime.
Before someone says the other side do the same, there are some vast differences i'd like to point out:
a) The science is overwhelmingly on the side of those calling for more sustainable policy.
b) The people behind the push for this have a LOT to gain from the outcome they desire - direct financial outcome for the big businesses, who's short term plan doesn't include "wasting" money on having to make their business sustainble (although one day, that will become inevitable - but they'll hold off for as long as possible)
c) One side pushes fear, while another pushes progress... I'd be more inclined to think that the progressive side are more likely to be thinking of, not just themselves, but also everyone around them, and everyone that will be around for many generations... while fear (without acceptance of that fear) creates negative people who don't want to change anything.. and probably want everyone to live by their exact rules too.
This politicking is ideologically dangerous.
What do you think the warming alarmists are playing on if not fear? What group is more restrictive of personal freedom, the Tea Partiers or the Nanny State leftists who would force kids to eat tofu if they could?
When some asshole comes around and tells me he knows what's good for me and he wants to help I run for the lube. One of us is going to need it.
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ZenXi6
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: zappaisgod]
#14171655 - 03/23/11 05:52 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
What do you think the warming alarmists are playing on if not fear? What group is more restrictive of personal freedom, the Tea Partiers or the Nanny State leftists who would force kids to eat tofu if they could?
When some asshole comes around and tells me he knows what's good for me and he wants to help I run for the lube. One of us is going to need it.
I was waiting for this... you're right, there are some extremists on the left who are morons and are inciting fear.
The majority, how ever, are talking about progressive change, the need to change our lifestyle so that future generations may have the privilieges that we have. That's not fear, that's sensible, progressive policy making. We're not saying the world is going to end and fall apart, just that if you don't set up certain things now, for future generations, then we can predict the outcomes on future generations, and it won't be as open to humanity as if we made some changes to the way we do things now.
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Phred
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
#14172118 - 03/23/11 07:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Emotion is an easy card to play for big business, media and government. People will put all logic aside when they're told something emotionally powerful enough (And there aren't too many more powerful things that have been used over time by authority organisations than FEAR)
Pot. Kettle. Black.
It is the warm-mongers who are eschewing logic and instead trying to ram their agenda through based on nothing more than fear.
Quote:
They've taken it to another level - a level of denying the very facts UNDERLYING the policy in the first place.
The problem here, of course, is that they aren't denying facts at all. It is not a fact that man's burning of stuff will result in catastrophic climate change. Or even that it will result in statistically significant climate change. Nor is it a fact that any climate change (man-made or otherwise) is de facto harmful.
Quote:
This sort of politics, using people's fear and emotions for political and financial gain, is one of the most perverse uses of power I've seen in my lifetime.
Pot. Kettle. Black. How can you not see the screaming irony of what you are typing?
Quote:
a) The science is overwhelmingly on the side of those calling for more sustainable policy.
If by this you are trying to say that science is overwhelmingly on the side of the warm-mongers, then you are wrong.
Quote:
b) The people behind the push for this have a LOT to gain from the outcome they desire ...
If by "the people behind the push" you mean the warm-mongers who want to cripple the world's economy, then you are correct: they have a lot to gain.
Quote:
c) One side pushes fear...
The warm-mongers do, yes.
Quote:
... while another pushes progress...
Those who increase the quality of life immeasurably through burning stuff, yes. Those who want them to stop burning stuff.... not so much.
Quote:
This politicking is ideologically dangerous.
Agreed. This is why the warm-mongers need to back the fuck off and let real scientists do actual real science. Happily, some of them are actually finally beginning to do this. I believe this trend will accelerate over time.
Until then, the politicians should scrap all their ridiculous "carbon tax" and "carbon offset" nonsense and let folks get on with living their lives.
Phred
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jebustrist
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
#14173082 - 03/23/11 10:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The problem here, of course, is that they aren't denying facts at all. It is not a fact that man's burning of stuff will result in catastrophic climate change. Or even that it will result in statistically significant climate change. Nor is it a fact that any climate change (man-made or otherwise) is de facto harmful.
I'm sorry but you simply cannot continue to say this. It is agreed upon to the extent that anything in science is agreed upon, and there are countless studies as well as recent events which actually support these facts(food shortages, record heat, record snowfall, record floods, etc.)
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Starter
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
#14173097 - 03/23/11 10:25 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's not the reason why the socialists want to impose a carbon tax on Australian taxpayers. The real reason is to recoop money pissed away on their failed social experiments since they blew the 80 billion AUD that Howard left on the plate; not to mention feather their own nests in more pay rises. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/mps-in-line-for-big-pay-rises-under-new-remuneration-tribunal-powers/comments-fn59niix-1226027414940
This carbon tax is ill thoughout and policy on the run. It was little more than a white board concept when the ALP dump trucked it on the Australian people after they claimed in a pre-election promise that there would be no carbon tax. Since then Ju-liar Gillard has been demanding her MP's lie on her behalf too i.e. to claim the Greens, a far-left extremist organisation, are not running the show, even though the ALP does what Bob Brown wants. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/climate/labor-mps-ordered-to-distance-government-from-the-greens-as-it-bids-to-sell-carbon-tax/story-e6frg6xf-1226027370768
I don't know if you're Australian, and as far I'm concerned only the Aussies have the right to speak about the carbon tax in Australia, as it's Australian taxpayers who will cop it. I'm against the tax. I will vote for Tony Abbott. I'm sick of leftists and how they're out to fuck me over for what I have earned - even though the equity I have has already been fleeced on income taxes, franced shares and capital gains and stamp duty on the property I own. For your information Australians already pay higher electricity prices than the Asian nations we export the coal to.
Australian families are already mortgage stressed and will not accept the carbon tax which will hobble the Australian way of life. Not to mention lose jobs by making business less competitive i.e. drive it off-shore to nations that will never crucify themselves in a carbon tax. The Marxists can expect defeat at the next federal as Australians swing to the conservatives, and a forerunner of that is about to happen to that worthless Keneally bitch in the NSW vote!
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Phred
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
#14173314 - 03/23/11 11:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm sorry but you simply cannot continue to say this.
I can and will, because every word of it is one hundred per cent accurate. Re-read what I wrote and think about what I am actually saying, not what you think I am saying.
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It is agreed upon to the extent that anything in science is agreed upon...
Now you are just beclowning yourself. There are literally millions of things scientists agree on to a far greater extent than the possibility that humans burning stuff will have catastrophic (or even statistically significant) effects on global temperature.
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...and there are countless studies...
Studies which show that humans burning stuff will have catastrophic (or even statistically significant) effects on global temperature? Nope. There are no studies at all which show that.
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...as well as recent events which actually support...
Again, nope. There is nothing in any of these weather events that hasn't occurred countless times in the past, long before man started burning stuff in any significant amounts.
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...which actually support these facts...
You are misusing the word "facts".
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Before politicians deliberately enact policies which will undeniably damage national economies and reduce the standard of living of their constituents, they have an obligation to provide at least some proof that these policies won't have a more deleterious affect than the alleged problem the policies are ostensibly aimed at ameliorating. So far no politician has done this.
Phred
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Starter
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
#14173451 - 03/23/11 11:43 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Before politicians deliberately enact policies which will undeniably damage national economies and reduce the standard of living of their constituents, they have an obligation to provide at least some proof that these policies won't have a more deleterious affect than the alleged problem the policies are ostensibly aimed at ameliorating. So far no politician has done this.
100% agree - and so do most Australians based on their anger at a tax that will only screw Australia's economy and not make one iota of difference to the environment. It's a known that if Australia turned out the lights and went to the stoneage then China's growth of just 6 months would bridge the difference in CO2 output.
If this madness is imposed and if the whackos in the US seek to do the same the Americans can look to the trainwreck of Australia as the example not to follow. Obviously the left-wing logic at work is Australia has to take a hit when it did so well through the GFC. Needless to say it was the private sector of Aussie mining that braced Australia in the GFC, and yet these same socialist scumbags (who want a carbon tax) also want a 40% mining tax too! It doesn't matter to them that it would screw self-funded retirees, super funds, shareholders, jobs in mining and how it would off-shore the industry to where business can be conducted without leftwing parasites.
Edited by Starter (03/23/11 11:45 PM)
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ZenXi6
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Starter]
#14173542 - 03/24/11 12:03 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok, this has turned into a "left wing bashing" block.
I'm not saying the CARBON TAX, per se is necessarily the best outcome for the problem. What I am advocating is responsibility when using shared resources.
When a business or individual pollutes, there are hidden costs for the clean up and rehabilitation of this, which a company or individual should pay for, and not expect to NOT PAY AT ALL, or leave it for future generations. This is irresponsible and unsustainable. In the end, that will mean the end to business.
The Gillard government's carbon tax is an attempt to tackle this problem by imposing a tax on something that has had a lot of scientific evidence (Climate Change in Australia) showing humans as the likely cause. More specifically - CO2 emissions.
The mining companies are mining something that is not theirs. They do not own what comes from the ground, nor did they do anything to create it. What they do is extract it, but at an environmental cost. As a shared resource that takes a long time to replenish, the companies should be taxed.
How the government spends the money is another issue, but they SHOULD be spending it on developing sustainable techniques, funding sustainable industry and encouraging research and more high-tech industry in Australia, so we don't become the world's mine and primary-material suppliers.
This same logic applies to all sorts of things, and SHOULD be where taxation, overall lays. On the shared resources, how much we use and how much we damage and how much we repair.
This is what I am advocating and talking about. Why, precisely, should we not be financially and ethically responsible for that which pollutes, or that which is rightfully EVERYONE'S and EVERYTHINGS, when we are using it?
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Starter
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
#14174209 - 03/24/11 05:00 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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But this socialist Gillard government is not going to spend the carbon tax money on alternative energy R&D, as it's a ruse to fleece the people for money to cover their poor financial management. Look at the pathetic insulation scheem and the billions wasted on that. Every time the ALP comes to power they balls it up and then it's up to the conservatives to fix it.
If you really want to put your best foot forward you have to be credible and this ALP government taking orders from the Greens is not credible. In fact the left are not even good sports. They've whinged that this week's peaceful protests at the Parliament House about the carbon tax were "extreme". They even claim that they're like the US Tea Party.
Reality: We can all see what the left-wing is like, just take a look at this footage of the leftists in a frenzied protest at the Parliament House and costing hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage. The sad part is the feral-left rioting scumbags are now in charge of this country.
http://www.2ue.com.au/blogs/2ue-blog/found-footage-of-parliament-riot/20110324-1c7qq.html
As for the view that the mining companies simply take the money and run, not at all. You have as much opportunity as any Australian to buy shares and make money. The fact is the state doesn't put in a cent. All of the surveys, often by remote sensing, then the ground truthing, the engineering, the rail, the roads, the big machinery, the vast distances, the business plans and raw get up and go and money spent is all PRIVATE ENTERPRISE.
What's more there is environmental legislation that obliges mining companies to restore habitat after operations are complete and protect vulnerable species, i.e. the ICUN. There are numerous environmental scientist positions available as employment with mining companies. Same too for Aboriginal employment. Name the opportunities in Kakadu without the James Price Point 30 billion dollar LNG hub? What opportunities are there for the Cape without mining? Is Noel Pearson FOS?
Edited by Starter (03/24/11 05:11 AM)
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seeker28
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Starter]
#14174618 - 03/24/11 08:35 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thankyou Zenxi6.
All of these damages to the collective environment we are getting away with, both scott and financially freely, are called negative externalities.
The price on pollution is what is known as a Pigovian Tax. This makes us accountable, financially - for we are in a capitalist system where money talks - for our negative externalities: our reckless, apathetic fucking-up of the commons.
Heard of a notion called The Tragedy of the Commons?
Say there's a field right, a paddock, and EVERYONE in the town gets to use that paddock to raise some livestock and make a living. Well, one guy called Johnny Proctor wants to make more money than everyone else, so in the middle of the night, he pulls up with his truck full of cattle, ready to exploit the luscious grass in this paddock for his own selfish gain.
WELL!! shocked is Mr Proctor to discover that EVERYONE ELSE in the town is there too, all embarrassed and awkward at how selfish they all were.
The moral of the story is that if there is no disincentive to plunder natural shared resources for personal gain, then we're gonna get a whole lot of selfish arseholes plundering the shit out of our paddock, and leaving it bare in a matter of days.
The thing is, we've only got one paddock, one planet, and if we don't institute a god-damned disincentive for the selfish arseholes (BHP, Rio Tinto, Coal mines, Gas plants, Bore tappers, Loggers) out there then we're going to end up with an arid wasteland in a few decades or centuries to "call Australia home".
Well fuck that, I say.
It's not even our home to plunder anyway.
Edited by seeker28 (03/24/11 08:36 AM)
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jebustrist
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
#14174654 - 03/24/11 08:47 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Phred said: a lot of misinformation likely originating from a misunderstanding of the scientific process
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Statements_by_dissenting_organizations
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no scientific body of national or international standing rejects the findings of human-induced effects on global warming
The data is in, human activity is the chief cause of the warming effects we have seen over the last 100 years, and the sharply accelerated rates of the last 30. This is indisputable, unless you have some new data that no one has yet seen? Oh wait you're just an internet libertarian with no scientific training...
I also recommend the IPCC report on climate change, even though it is a few years old and outdated in some areas.
Your claim that a carbon tax would be a drain on the economy is also unfounded and possibly even false. There are many reasons to think that it would boost innovation in new sectors of the economy, as well as mitigating the the drain of higher public health costs due to increased pollution. Sure it might be a drain on businesses that refuse to adapt, but that is the way of the "free" market. The cost of doing nothing will be far greater when we face food and water shortages, more extreme weather and higher sea levels just to name a few.
Edited by jebustrist (03/24/11 08:49 AM)
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Phred
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
#14174790 - 03/24/11 09:27 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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The data is in, human activity is the chief cause of the warming effects we have seen over the last 100 years, and the sharply accelerated rates of the last 30.
Actually, no. That is not the case at all. No one has shown that the temperature changes recorded in the last century or the last three decades are attributable to humans burning stuff, nor has the most reliable data even shown that temperature changes have accelerated (much less sharply accelerated) over the last three decades. Repeating over and over that this has been shown does nothing to enhance your credibility.
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I also recommend the IPCC report on climate change, even though it is a few years old and outdated in some areas.
If by "outdated" you mean "thoroughly debunked" then for once you have made a factual statement.
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Your claim that a carbon tax would be a drain on the economy is also unfounded and possibly even false.
Don't be absurd. Every tax is a drain on the economy.
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There are many reasons to think that it would boost innovation in new sectors of the economy...
There are no reasons to think this.
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... as well as mitigating the the drain of higher public health costs due to increased pollution.
Now you're just being ridiculous. The tax won't reduce carbon emissions by a gram, they will increase the cost of people's energy bills. Therefore the effect on health will be zero.
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The cost of doing nothing will be far greater when we face food and water shortages, more extreme weather and higher sea levels just to name a few.
Groundless assertion in at least three ways:
1) there is no evidence any of these things will happen 2) there is no evidence that if any of these things does happen, it is due to humans burning stuff 3) there is no evidence that the cost of dealing with these things if they ever do happen will exceed the cost of all these various carbon taxes.
Phred
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Starter
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: seeker28]
#14174816 - 03/24/11 09:37 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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I've read the "Tragedy of the Commons" and its central message is not in dispute. What is, is how will this farce of a carbon tax, implimented by a known fraudulent and lying government, actually work?
Listen, Gillard was NOT voted in. She back stabbed PM Rudd in a coup. Not to mention the ALP only just scraped in as a minority government with a tenuous hold on power by having sold out to the Greens - a radical leftist organisation. The ALP has a major credibility issue and that's NOT helped by the ALP's pre-election claim that there would be no carbon tax. Yes, on such a shitty platform this tax has been pimped.
The reality: the carbon tax in Australia will not help the environment at all. It may make the deluded sleep better at night with them thinking it has helped the environment but that's all it will do. The money will be pissed away on more big government bloat, the taxpayers will have their living costs made more expensive and jobs will vanish as manufacturing and even mining set sail to friendlier shores. Great huh.
If the aim of the left is to simply screw over the living standards of everyday people why not just come out and say it. Hey, say that you want an 'austerity tax', as that would at least be more honest! Seriously, there's no need for a carbon tax. Peak Oil will dictate people's energy use and living standards by market forces. Prices on petrol and electricity have already gone up 50% in the last 5 years. That's a 7% increase per annum. Doubling time every 10 years.
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jebustrist
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Starter]
#14175155 - 03/24/11 11:07 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Groundless assertion in at least three ways:
1) there is no evidence any of these things will happen 2) there is no evidence that if any of these things does happen, it is due to humans burning stuff 3) there is no evidence that the cost of dealing with these things if they ever do happen will exceed the cost of all these various carbon taxes.

Read. The. Fucking. Report. Saying there is no evidence is just proof of your (politically motivated?) ignorance. You don't want it to be true. http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/ because I doubt you have the ability or intellectual honesty to read anything longer than a few pages.
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Phred
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
#14175286 - 03/24/11 11:34 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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I will remind you once again that this is not the forum in which to argue the science (or pseudo-science) underlying the claim that humans burning stuff will lead to catastrophic (or even statistically significant) temperature increases. As such, your graph has no worth - in this forum. If you want to do a "duelling graphs" or "duelling experts" scenario, do it in Conspiracies and Coverups or in Science and Technology. This forum is for discussing policy.
And even assuming that graph (which contradicts other graphs from other equally credible sources) is accurate, it does nothing to show that humans burning stuff will lead to catastrophic (or even statistically significant) temperature increases. At best - at the VERY best - it shows that CO2 levels are higher today than they are believed to have been in the last 400,00 years.
As an aside, rational readers of the thread will be unsurprised that the warm-mongers lie even about their own cherry-picked "evidence". Compare the claim in the caption of the graph with the actual graph itself. Did you catch it, too? How can a rational person have any confidence in the proclamations of those too stupid (or too dishonest) to even describe correctly what their own graph shows?
Phred
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jebustrist
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
#14175353 - 03/24/11 11:47 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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The graph alone may not prove that, but thanks to the miracles of modern science and carbon isotope analysis, it is proven beyond a doubt that the increased CO2 levels are the direct result of human activity.
I'm not really sure why you insist on pretending that climate change is not a political issue, when pro-business groups and oligarchs of all stripes have paid off parties in nearly every nation on earth to campaign on the fact that it is not real.
Since you seem incapable of responding to a post in toto, perhaps you can elaborate on the questions below, providing evidence from established scientific authorities(or your own research...lol) to support your answers.
Do you deny that arctic sea ice and glaciers have been in retreat for decades? Do you deny that the planet has become warmer in the last 100 years? Do you deny that the global sea level is rising? Do you deny that "extreme" weather events, meaning record highs and lows, are becoming more frequent? Do you deny that the oceans are becoming more acidic? Do you deny that if global warming it is a large risk to continue burning unrestricted amounts of high-carbon fuels?
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Phred
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
#14175649 - 03/24/11 12:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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The graph alone may not prove that, but thanks to the miracles of modern science and carbon isotope analysis, it is proven beyond a doubt that the increased CO2 levels are the direct result of human activity.
Yet all those dozens of times in the past when CO2 levels were believed to be higher than they are today were also somehow the result of humans who hadn't even made their appearance on the planet yet? Okay then.
Regardless, even if this latest spike (and only this out of dozens or hundreds of past CO2 spikes) can be attributed to humans burning stuff, it does nothing to show that humans burning stuff will result in catastrophic (or even statistically significant) temperature increases.
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I'm not really sure why you insist on pretending that climate change is not a political issue...
Of course it's a political issue, duh! Any time politicians get it into their pointy little heads that they must forcefully extract even more pelf from peaceful individuals who have done nothing wrong, it is s political issue. How can it be otherwise?
All I am pointing out is that this is not the forum to parse the "science" behind the proclamations of the warm-mongers that humans burning stuff will result in catastrophic (or even statistically significant) temperature increases. The place to do "duelling graphs" and "duelling monographs" is either the Science and Technology forum or the Conspiracies and Coverups forum. Not this forum.
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Do you deny that arctic sea ice and glaciers have been in retreat for decades?
Consistent retreat? Of course I deny it, since it isn't the case.
But that has nothing to do with the assertion that humans burning stuff will result in catastrophic (or even statistically significant) temperature increases. Even if it were true that arctic sea ice and "glaciers" had been retreating steadily for decades, this does nothing to show the retreat is linked to humans burning stuff.
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Do you deny that the planet has become warmer in the last 100 years?
No one knows for sure. The only data that is reliable is satellite data, and that covers not more than about a third of that time period. The surface temperature record is hopelessly corrupted, as the ClimateGate e-mails revealed. The satellite data shows no statistically significant increase over the period of time they have been recording.
However, even if the planet has become warmer over the last hundred years this does nothing to show that humans burning stuff will result in catastrophic (or even statistically significant) temperature increases.
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Do you deny that the global sea level is rising?
Of course I do, since there is no hard evidence showing it has been - at least over the last century. Has it risen since the end of the last Ice Age? Of course it has.
But even if the sea level has risen a bit (and it hasn't, but let's pretend for the next minute or two that it has) this does nothing to show that humans burning stuff will result in catastrophic (or even statistically significant) results.
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Do you deny that "extreme" weather events, meaning record highs and lows, are becoming more frequent?
Of course I deny it, since they haven't become more frequent.
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Do you deny that the oceans are becoming more acidic?
The "oceans" or isolated patches of sea here and there? There is no convincing evidence that this is the case, but even if there were, this does nothing to show that humans burning stuff will result in catastrophic (or even statistically significant) changes in ocean acidity.
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Do you deny that if global warming it is a large risk to continue burning unrestricted amounts of high-carbon fuels?
This sentence doesn't make sense. What are you asking? Never mind... it doesn't matter anyway, since it is clear from the questions you ask that you still aren't grasping what I am saying (rather than what you think I am saying), that you have no understanding of the meaning of the word "fact", that you have no grasp of the difference between "cause" and "correlation", that you don't understand how science works, that you have at the very best a superficial, layman's-level grasp of the physics involved here, that you have done very little research into this on your own, instead opting to swallow uncritically the warm-monger's Kool-Aid, and that you will never expend the effort to examine the science presented by those scientists not conned by the warm-monger's dishonest manipulation of data.
No skin off my nose.
The fact remains that there is nowhere close to enough support for the supposition that humans burning stuff will result in catastrophic (or even statistically significant) changes in global temperature to provide cover for politicians to disastrously cripple the Western world's already struggling economies. Even the warm-mongers themselves admit that if all the regulations they propose were to be scrupulously followed to the letter (which of course they wouldn't be -- see the dismal compliance record for the Kyoto Accords, for one) the theoretical reduction in global temperature half a century from now (or a century, in some projections... take your pick) will amount to just a fraction of the margin of error of current global temperature measurements.
And that's all that matters. Apart from the fact (and yes, it is a fact) that no one can even demonstrate increased temperatures will be harmful to mankind, what's more significant is that the warm-mongers themselves admit we cannot reduce the temperature anyway! So why beggar ourselves in an exercise in futility?
Phred
*edit* P.S. -- did you catch the blatant error/dishonesty in the graph you posted?
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Edited by Phred (03/24/11 12:49 PM)
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jebustrist
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
#14176027 - 03/24/11 02:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah sorry your whole post is worthless as you have not provided a shred of evidence to support your contentions, all of which go against the well-established scientific consensus in 2011.
Besides that I'm extremely confident that I understand quite a bit more about science and logic than someone that signs their posts. Despite your frequent allusion to conspiracies and debunkings, without credible evidence you're just another two-bit tea-bagging political whacko who is more motivated by his emotions and fears than a genuine concern for society.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
#14176135 - 03/24/11 02:23 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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The only ones playing the fear card are you and your ilk. The only evidence you provided shows an increase in CO2 concentration of, wait for it, about 5 thousandths of a percent. And you think this is catastrophic. Nor have you provided any evidence that it is causing whatever warming has occurred, the degree of which is well in dispute and keeps getting revised by your precious Hansen.
Phil Jones Quote:
Q: Do you agree that from 1995 to the present there has been no statistically-significant global warming
A: Yes, but only just. I also calculated the trend for the period 1995 to 2009. This trend (0.12C per decade) is positive, but not significant at the 95% significance level. The positive trend is quite close to the significance level. Achieving statistical significance in scientific terms is much more likely for longer periods, and much less likely for shorter periods.
Since you supposedly "understand quite a bit more about science and logic", I'm sure you know what "statistically significant" means. One thing it doesn't mean is "close enough".
How come they never released the raw data to other scientists? How come they tried to "hide the decline"? How come we haven't gotten all those hurricanes?
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ZenXi6
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: zappaisgod]
#14177281 - 03/24/11 05:20 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hang on... radical Greens?
That sounds like a Liberal Party political advertisment, rather than a well thought through position on a political party, to me.
What, precisely is more radical about the Green's policy, in comparison with any other major political party in Australia?
I think people take politics a little too simply... as if politicians ACTUALLY have that much power, or that the system ACTUALLY allows them to keep to their promises.
Here's some advice for everyone:
When ever a politician comes out and PROMISES results on something - ignore them, even if you like them. They are lying - they don't have the POWER to promise such things. No Australian does. If they say they will try their BEST and fully support a certain motion, then they go back on that - well, that's different.
And - Socialist ALP? Are you serious??? The ALP are about as socialist as the.. well, as the Liberal Party, really.
There is no right or left in the two-party Australian political system. We have... centre and.. more centre.
We have such a shit of a tabloid political system, and I think this is well proved by people's silly slogans and buzz words in this thread...
What's the point of slogans and buzz words? The point is to paint simple pictures for the media to use, which the people will pick up on and then think of the issues in black and white terms.
Naive.
We need to get out of this tabloid-emotive driven politics, because it's hidden our truths and perverted our debates.
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Phred
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
#14177518 - 03/24/11 05:56 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah sorry your whole post is worthless as you have not provided a shred of evidence to support your contentions, all of which go against the well-established scientific consensus in 2011.
And there we have it folks -- proof of my observation that jebustrist has no idea how science works. When I was in school, the overwhelming scientific consensus (much more monolithic than the "consensus over AGW global warming) was that continents didn't move. That was just crazy talk! Less than two decades ago, the overwhelming scientific consensus was that stomach ulcers were caused by stress or by some genetic predisposition, not by bacteria.
Scientific truth is not decided by consensus. Never has been, never will be.
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Besides that I'm extremely confident that I understand quite a bit more about science and logic than someone that signs their posts.
If you believe the bilge from the warm-monger link you provided, then no, your understanding does not in fact exceed my own. As just one example of this, I remind the viewing audience (though the rational members of the audience have already noted it) of your inability to even identify, much less acknowledge, the blatant error/dishonesty in the graph you posted.
Phred
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seeker28
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
#14178034 - 03/24/11 07:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Phred said: I will remind you once again that this is not the forum in which to argue the science (or pseudo-science) underlying the claim that humans burning stuff will lead to catastrophic (or even statistically significant) temperature increases. As such, your graph has no worth - in this forum. If you want to do a "duelling graphs" or "duelling experts" scenario, do it in Conspiracies and Coverups or in Science and Technology. This forum is for discussing policy.
Phred
spare me. with all due respect to the "M" next to your name, you as well as I as well as everyone else reading this thread knows that the science and policy in this issue are inextricably linked. One cannot be debated without the other. When it is (policy without the science), the digression to farcical slander is inevitable.
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Starter
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
#14180148 - 03/25/11 02:37 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just tell me how this carbon tax from the socialists will fix the world global warming problem? Forget whether global warming is real or not; I want a solid answer on how will this tax fix the alleged problem? I want you to answer this with a straight face while recalling how the ALP blew 2.5 billion AUD on their failed insulation scheem, which has not just wasted a huge pile of Australian taxpayers' money, it has killed several people and burned down over 100 homes! It was lauded, at the time, as a way to save the planet from global warming. Sounds familiar.
Re: radical Green party: even the ALP's resource minister Martin Ferguson has stated the Greens are in a fantasy land and won't be happy until they've taxed to death the system and have Australians with no jobs. That's how radical the Greens are as even the ALP resources minister sees them as Soapbox Bob.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/climate/ferguson-calls-greens-basket-weavers-and-labels-leader-soapbox-bob/story-e6frg6xf-1226027938159
As for "left" and "right", you inauguarated this thread on a "right bash" in some sort of comparison of the anti-carbon protests at the Parliament House being akin to the Republican Tea Party protest movement. Not to mention both Gillard and Brown have called the anti-carbon protesters "extremists", even though the protestors were peaceful and are taxpaying Australians who have every right to voice their opinions in a free nation against an unfair tax. So lets now compare the peaceful anti-carbon protesters to the leftists who broke down doors, looted and engaged in violence when they protested at the Parliament House. It's obvious which ones are "extreme"! http://www.2ue.com.au/blogs/2ue-blog/found-footage-of-parliament-riot/20110324-1c7qq.html
And finally, the ALP are socalists. They're Fabian Socialists with that scumbag Gough Whitlam as their messiah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Fabian_Society
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Phred
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: seeker28]
#14180683 - 03/25/11 07:11 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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spare me. with all due respect to the "M" next to your name, you as well as I as well as everyone else reading this thread knows that the science and policy in this issue are inextricably linked. One cannot be debated without the other. When it is (policy without the science), the digression to farcical slander is inevitable.
Nonsense. Policy can indeed be meaningfully debated while never needing to introduce a single graph or cut and paste a single equation, because - when it comes to policy - what matters is not the cause of any alleged global temperature increase, but whether the alleged temperature increase can be shown to be harmful enough to humans to warrant enacting legislation which will also be harmful to humans. Let's face it - if raising temperatures will have catastrophic results for humans, this is true whether humans are the cause of the rising temperatures or whether the sun is the cause.
As anyone who has spent even the slightest effort to look into this subject already knows, the earth has many times in the past been warmer than it is today (if we can believe what historians, archaeologists, and paleo-climatologists tell us) and it has many times in the past been colder, as well. Historians and paleo-biologists tell us that living things in general, and humans in particular, do much better in warmer periods than in colder ones. See the Roman warm period versus the Dark Ages, or the Mediaeval warm period versus the Little Ice Age, as the most recent two pairs of opposites. In these cases we have actual written histories amply supporting this common sense conclusion, but archaeological evidence leads us to the same conclusion regarding life prior to the advent of writing: humans do better in warmer eras than in colder eras. And one thing we can predict with absolute certainty is that there will be another Ice Age. As a matter of fact, statistically speaking we are overdue for one. Long overdue.
This being the case, the only question a policy-maker should be asking is - "How much money should we be spending in efforts to raise the global temperature and stave off the advent of the next Ice Age?" If it turns out the temperature appears to be rising with no assistance from politicians, then the answer is "Nothing." If it turns out the temperature is steady, debate can take place. If it turns out the temperature is falling, the answer is obvious - "As much money as we can possibly scrounge up!"
We already know the temperature has remained steady for the last fifteen years, so it could be reasonably expected that our policy makers might spend some time debating how much to spend to warm things up. But that's not what's being discussed, is it? Instead, they are trying to figure out how much they need to spend in order to cool us down to where it was four decades ago. I was alive four decades ago, living in Canada. It was fucking cold. Canadian winters in the Nineties were more bearable than Canadian winters in the Seventies. Any Canadian farmer would tell you in a New York minute he would prefer to have Nineties weather over Seventies weather. I have no doubt the same is true of Russian and Chinese farmers.
I repeat - extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. So far the warm-mongers have provided none. They have instead provided computer simulations, none of which agree with each other, none of which can predict backwards with any degree of accuracy, all of which can vary wildly with a tiny tweaking of any one of dozens of variables which are assigned in most cases arbitrarily. So sorry, but that isn't proof. Hell, it isn't even evidence.
And I must point out - again - that even the warm-mongers admit the measures they are so adamantly screeching we must adopt instantly will not alter their projected increase in temperatures (and their various projected increases are all over the map) by any statistically significant amount anyway. This leads rational people to ask the obvious question : why implement the measures, then?
To get this thread back on track, is the Australian version of the "Tea Party" phenomenon a single-issue group, then? Are they objecting solely to the upcoming carbon tax? Or is the carbon tax just the straw that broke the camel's back, and they are in favor of less taxes and smaller government in general, like their American counterparts?
Phred
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rhave
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
#14184696 - 03/25/11 11:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm not sure why I'm posting here cause I know I won't change anyone's mind but I can't resist:
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Phred said: Nonsense. Policy can indeed be meaningfully debated while never needing to introduce a single graph or cut and paste a single equation, because - when it comes to policy - what matters is not the cause of any alleged global temperature increase, but whether the alleged temperature increase can be shown to be harmful enough to humans to warrant enacting legislation which will also be harmful to humans.
The cause is very important; if it's the sun it would be pointless to legislate anything; if it's CO2 it would make sense to try to curb emissions; if it's people wearing green it would make sense to try to dissuade people from wearing it. Obviously, like you said, global warming would have to at least be potentially harmful also for legislation to make sense. I think anyone would agree that an increase in global temperature is potentially harmful, while .5 degrees might not be, it might even be beneficial, 5 degrees wouldn't be good. A stable climate is preferable to one that is getting colder or warming up, our population and infrastructure is distributed based on how the climates been recently, any large change would probably fuck that up, even if more land overall became arable.
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And one thing we can predict with absolute certainty is that there will be another Ice Age. As a matter of fact, statistically speaking we are overdue for one. Long overdue.
One could see that of evidence that we are doing something that is affecting the climate.
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Any Canadian farmer would tell you in a New York minute he would prefer to have Nineties weather over Seventies weather. I have no doubt the same is true of Russian and Chinese farmers.
At the same time SE Australia has severe drought I think farmers there would prefer their old weather.
I hope you were being facetious when you suggested that governments should try to warm up the globe to prevent a possible ice age. That would be horribly reckless. Attempting to manipulate the global climate could easily get out of hand, I don't think we understand it that well yet. And there is a difference between trying reduce our affect, if any, on global climate, and trying to control global climate.
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Phred
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: rhave]
#14185545 - 03/26/11 05:35 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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The cause is very important; if it's the sun it would be pointless to legislate anything...
But that's just it - it's not pointless! You are not following the logic here: either it is bad for humans to experience a higher global temperature or it isn't. It doesn't matter what causes the rise in temperature: the sun, increased CO2 emissions, aliens shining a heat ray on the earth from light years away. What matters is the effect that rising temperatures have on humans.
So, if it can be shown that increased temperature is bad for us (and it can't be shown that higher temps are bad, because the opposite is true) then it would make sense for politicians to propose actions they believe would lower global temperature.
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I think anyone would agree that an increase in global temperature is potentially harmful...
Then you think wrong, since the opposite is true. A reduction in global temperature would be harmful.
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A stable climate is preferable to one that is getting colder or warming up...
Even if this is true (and no one has shown it to be true) it will never happen. Climate is changing constantly. Always has, always will.
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...our population and infrastructure is distributed based on how the climates been recently, any large change would probably fuck that up, even if more land overall became arable.
Oh noes! Some people might have to *gasp* move! Some new roads might have to be built! Some existing buildings might have to be abandoned! Catastrophe! Apocalypse!
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One could see that of evidence that we are doing something that is affecting the climate.
Or one could see that as being near the far end of the normal variation of the length between glacial epochs.
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At the same time SE Australia has severe drought I think farmers there would prefer their old weather.
Droughts in SE Australia are cyclical. Always have been, always will be. Didn't I hear something about severe flooding in other parts of Australia this year? Why yes.... yes I did.
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I hope you were being facetious when you suggested that governments should try to warm up the globe to prevent a possible ice age.
No, I wasn't. There are few things more disastrous to life on this planet than having most of the land surface buried under ice a mile thick.
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That would be horribly reckless.
LOL. Dude, read what you just wrote. I mean, seriously, take a step back and try to read what you just wrote with the eyes of an objective reader coming across it for the first time.
This is my point exactly, duh! Governments are being horribly reckless by enacting legislation we know will damage human well-being even though the people urging them to enact the legislation admit that the legislation will have no appreciable effect on the alleged problem the legislation is supposed to fix. If ever there were an example of horrible recklessness, this is it.
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Attempting to manipulate the global climate could easily get out of hand, I don't think we understand it that well yet.
Exactly. Do you not see how you are making my argument for me? Seriously... do you not grasp the import of your own words?
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And there is a difference between trying reduce our affect, if any, on global climate, and trying to control global climate.
You are missing the point entirely here. If it turns out our actions undertaken to alter our terrestrial environment in order to better survive have the side benefit of also altering our atmospheric environment in a beneficial manner, then it's a win-win situation.
Phred
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Starter
Stranger


Registered: 05/16/03
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
#14189031 - 03/26/11 08:52 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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To get this thread back on track, is the Australian version of the "Tea Party" phenomenon a single-issue group, then? Are they objecting solely to the upcoming carbon tax? Or is the carbon tax just the straw that broke the camel's back, and they are in favor of less taxes and smaller government in general, like their American counterparts?
The catalyst is the carbon-tax, no question there. Is the carbon-tax a single issue? I don't think so. The people and business want less interference and less taxes. They want a return to the growth and boom of the Howard years that has stalled once the left sneaked into federal government as a minority government with support from independents.
Hence the landslide to the conservatives in yesterday's State NSW election. As a result the conservatives now control at state level the three most powerful states of the country (WA, QLD and now NSW). Come the federal the conservatives will win and this will be the end of the leftist ALP/Greens nightmare. The carbon-tax will be remembered as a government killer. No one will want to try that again!
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TimmiT


Registered: 03/23/10
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Loc: Victoria
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Starter]
#14190233 - 03/27/11 02:19 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Starter said: As a result the conservatives now control at state level the three most powerful states of the country (WA, QLD and now NSW)
The conservatives are in power in Vic, WA and now NSW. QLD is still labor under Anna Bligh.
Although I don't myself identify as a conservative, I think they're the lesser of two evils. Australia needs strong environmental policy but a carbon tax would likely be ineffective and damaging to the economy.
-------------------- "Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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seeker28
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: TimmiT]
#14195398 - 03/27/11 11:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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I hope we can all keep in mind that our funky fungi friends are in no way partial whatsoever to atmospheric pollution. They're not lichen it one bit.
So let's keep the bastards honest, at least for them, hey?
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TimmiT


Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 5,303
Loc: Victoria
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: seeker28]
#14195623 - 03/28/11 12:18 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- "Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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seeker28
student



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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: TimmiT]
#14196471 - 03/28/11 06:56 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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So I've come to realize that it's all gonna be OK. Everything will work itself out. Action on Climate Change is anthropocentric just as the big polluters' action on climate change is. We can't kill the Earth because we are the Earth as much as it is us. The human population will be balanced out and THAT will be sustainable.
Take for example Lake Eyre; that used to be completely salt. Now it's vibrant, with water pumping through its veins, and beautiful flocks of birds returning to it to call it home. Some have argued that the floods that ravaged QLD were such a detrimental, disastrous effect of climate change. Because they fucked up the QLD economy and heaps of people's lives. Now don't get me wrong, I really feel for those people, as well as the people of Japan, I truly do, but examples such as Lake Eyre have helped me realize that beauty is eternal. The Earth will adapt and new sites of beauty will emerge. Life is change. The Earth is a constantly evolving entity.
I used to hate us, the human race, for doing what we're doing, but everything will adapt, everything will work itself out. Shoot me for my opinions, but I'll just come back as some funky hybrid fungi for my great-great-grandkids to appreciate.
It's been an internal conflict I've been confused over for quite some time now, but I've spoken to a close, older, quite awakened friend about the issue, and I guess "come out" with my thoughts on the climate which I hadn't really felt comfortable voicing to my activist friends. I've come to realize that even campaigning for environmental sustainability can create scope for self-serving interests. One of the things that tipped me over the edge was reading the front page of the Business section of my state paper, The Advertiser, and seeing the CEO of BHP announce that they were going to invest billions of dollars into the expansion of their Australian mines to support and profit off the economic booms of overseas economies. They said with a huge, fat, smug-as-fug grin that they'd factored in the costs of the mining and carbon tax.
We had a great discussion.
When I got home tonight I had a good old laugh at Tony Abbott bickering about the carbon tax on Lateline.
PS: It was refreshing seeing the War on Drugs appear to be debated as a real issue on QANDA, if anyone else saw that.
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rhave
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
#14200365 - 03/28/11 09:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Phred said: But that's just it - it's not pointless! You are not following the logic here: either it is bad for humans to experience a higher global temperature or it isn't
It isn't proven that the amount of change that has occurred in the past and was beneficial to humans would be if it occurred again, or that a greater amount of change would be more beneficial. Obviously(this time i hope even to you) an extreme case such as a 50 degree increase in average global temperature would probably drive humans nearly to extinction. I don't think anyone thinks global warming will change the temperature any where near that much, but no one knows exactly where the higher temperature stops being beneficial and becomes harmful.
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I think anyone would agree that an increase in global temperature is potentially harmful...
Then you think wrong, since the opposite is true. A reduction in global temperature would be harmful.
I didn't say it must be harmful, or even that it probably would be, or that a reduction in temperature wouldn't be. Same as above, a temperature increase could be harmful.
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Oh noes! Some people might have to *gasp* move! Some new roads might have to be built! Some existing buildings might have to be abandoned! Catastrophe! Apocalypse!
It's not quite that simple, much of the worlds population doesn't have the resources to just up and move if they can't grow food where they are anymore. You and I may not be bothered much by it, but people not born in a developed country wouldn't be so lucky.
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Didn't I hear something about severe flooding in other parts of Australia this year? Why yes.... yes I did.
Ah, well that's good, I guess they must be making up for droughts by having larger crops from the flooding.
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This is my point exactly, duh! Governments are being horribly reckless by enacting legislation we know will damage human well-being even though the people urging them to enact the legislation admit that the legislation will have no appreciable effect on the alleged problem the legislation is supposed to fix. If ever there were an example of horrible recklessness, this is it.
You can't have it both ways, either reducing CO2 would prevent warming or it would have no effect. Governments are notorious for wasting tons of taxpayers' money, doing a bit more of it doesn't really seem horribly reckless.
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Attempting to manipulate the global climate could easily get out of hand, I don't think we understand it that well yet.
Exactly. Do you not see how you are making my argument for me? Seriously... do you not grasp the import of your own words?
You're the one who said we should be trying to warm it up. I was arguing in favor of trying to limit our affect on global climate, the opposite of trying to influence it.
P.S. I like the sentiment of the poster above me. I don't think I'll post any more in this thread after this, so don't feel like you have to respond.
Edited by rhave (03/28/11 09:19 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: rhave]
#14203461 - 03/29/11 12:16 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/mtr_today_march_25/
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Climate Commissioner Tim Flannery joins us - but refuses to say by how much the world’s temperature will fall thanks to Julia Gillard’s global warming policies. Later he concedes that even if the whole world slashes its emissions we won’t know what difference it will make for maybe a thousand years. Doesn’t sound like much of a deal to me.
But we'll know in short order how much human suffering it will cause.
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seeker28
student



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Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: zappaisgod]
#14204960 - 03/29/11 05:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh you would love Andrew Bolt.
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