Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisiblejebustrist
Stranger


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 79
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14169717 - 03/23/11 12:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Almost that entire post is factually inaccurate.  While higher levels of CO2 might have been a trailing indicator in the past, the increased levels of CO2 in our atmosphere have been proven to be the result of human activity.  Only a small amount of the warming observed in the last century is attributable to increased solar activity.  I would address the rest of the arguments, but it's pointless.  Just like every other conspiracy theorist and evolution denier, you'll simply continue pointing out minor gaps in our understanding rather than looking at the broad picture.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
    #14170249 - 03/23/11 01:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This is not the forum in which to argue over the science (or pseudo-science) underpinning the claims that man's burning of stuff will lead to catastrophic consequences for humanity. If that's what you want to do, go to the Science and Technology forum or to the Conspiracies and Coverups forum.

Get back to the topic of the original post - Australia's nascent "Tea Party" movement and the reaction to it by those who favor big government.







Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
    #14171342 - 03/23/11 04:56 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

jebustrist said:
Almost that entire post is factually inaccurate.  While higher levels of CO2 might have been a trailing indicator in the past, the increased levels of CO2 in our atmosphere have been proven to be the result of human activity.  Only a small amount of the warming observed in the last century is attributable to increased solar activity.  I would address the rest of the arguments, but it's pointless.  Just like every other conspiracy theorist and evolution denier, you'll simply continue pointing out minor gaps in our understanding rather than looking at the broad picture.



Even if increased CO2 has been proven to be the result of human activity, and I do not concede the accuracy of that assertion, what most certainly has not been proven in any way at all is that it is causing climate change.  The simple fact that CO2 has in the past been a trailing indicator, as you concede, points to the exact opposite conclusion, to wit, that the increase in CO2 levels is a result of warming and not a cause of it.

Further, there is no evidence that a warming planet is overall harmful.  The worst times for humanity were during the Little Ice Age.  Some areas will benefit and some will not.

Further, and here is the political part of this, any effort to restrict energy use is a death sentence for millions of people and a surefire method for ensuring continued and increasing poverty for a vast portion of the world's population.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14171379 - 03/23/11 05:04 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Zappaisgod, what part of

Quote:

This is not the forum in which to argue over the science (or pseudo-science) underpinning the claims that man's burning of stuff will lead to catastrophic consequences for humanity. If that's what you want to do, go to the Science and Technology forum or to the Conspiracies and Coverups forum.

Get back to the topic of the original post - Australia's nascent "Tea Party" movement and the reaction to it by those who favor big government.




are you having difficulty grasping? Cut this "squeeze in the last word" shit out and get back on topic.






Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZenXi6
Illuminate
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1,173
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
    #14171576 - 03/23/11 05:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This is exactly the problem with the debate, and exactly what this (Tea Party) style of politics is doing to debating.

It's hard for people to generally trust facts in the world today, because although an overarching prominent scientific theory may be the rational side of something, as soon as other things, like the economy get involved, any rationality goes out the window in favour of emotion.

Emotion is an easy card to play for big business, media and government.  People will put all logic aside when they're told something emotionally powerful enough (And there aren't too many more powerful things that have been used over time by authority organisations than FEAR)

The Abbott camp, on this issue, aren't actually debating the Carbon Tax, per se.  They've taken it to another level - a level of denying the very facts UNDERLYING the policy in the first place.

This sort of politics, using people's fear and emotions for political and financial gain, is one of the most perverse uses of power I've seen in my lifetime.

Before someone says the other side do the same, there are some vast differences i'd like to point out:

a) The science is overwhelmingly on the side of those calling for more sustainable policy.

b) The people behind the push for this have a LOT to gain from the outcome they desire - direct financial outcome for the big businesses, who's short term plan doesn't include "wasting" money on having to make their business sustainble (although one day, that will become inevitable - but they'll hold off for as long as possible)

c) One side pushes fear, while another pushes progress... I'd be more inclined to think that the progressive side are more likely to be thinking of, not just themselves, but also everyone around them, and everyone that will be around for many generations... while fear (without acceptance of that fear) creates negative people who don't want to change anything.. and probably want everyone to live by their exact rules too.


This politicking is ideologically dangerous.


--------------------
We are the Divine Universe, Incarnate!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
    #14171618 - 03/23/11 05:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ZenXi6 said:
This is exactly the problem with the debate, and exactly what this (Tea Party) style of politics is doing to debating.

It's hard for people to generally trust facts in the world today, because although an overarching prominent scientific theory may be the rational side of something, as soon as other things, like the economy get involved, any rationality goes out the window in favour of emotion.

Emotion is an easy card to play for big business, media and government.  People will put all logic aside when they're told something emotionally powerful enough (And there aren't too many more powerful things that have been used over time by authority organisations than FEAR)

The Abbott camp, on this issue, aren't actually debating the Carbon Tax, per se.  They've taken it to another level - a level of denying the very facts UNDERLYING the policy in the first place.

This sort of politics, using people's fear and emotions for political and financial gain, is one of the most perverse uses of power I've seen in my lifetime.

Before someone says the other side do the same, there are some vast differences i'd like to point out:

a) The science is overwhelmingly on the side of those calling for more sustainable policy.

b) The people behind the push for this have a LOT to gain from the outcome they desire - direct financial outcome for the big businesses, who's short term plan doesn't include "wasting" money on having to make their business sustainble (although one day, that will become inevitable - but they'll hold off for as long as possible)

c) One side pushes fear, while another pushes progress... I'd be more inclined to think that the progressive side are more likely to be thinking of, not just themselves, but also everyone around them, and everyone that will be around for many generations... while fear (without acceptance of that fear) creates negative people who don't want to change anything.. and probably want everyone to live by their exact rules too.


This politicking is ideologically dangerous.



:facepalm:  What do you think the warming alarmists are playing on if not fear?  What group is more restrictive of personal freedom, the Tea Partiers or the Nanny State leftists who would force kids to eat tofu if they could? 

When some asshole comes around and tells me he knows what's good for me and he wants to help I run for the lube.  One of us is going to need it.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZenXi6
Illuminate
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1,173
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14171655 - 03/23/11 05:52 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


:facepalm:  What do you think the warming alarmists are playing on if not fear?  What group is more restrictive of personal freedom, the Tea Partiers or the Nanny State leftists who would force kids to eat tofu if they could? 

When some asshole comes around and tells me he knows what's good for me and he wants to help I run for the lube.  One of us is going to need it.





I was waiting for this... you're right, there are some extremists on the left who are morons and are inciting fear.

The majority, how ever, are talking about progressive change, the need to change our lifestyle so that future generations may have the privilieges that we have.  That's not fear, that's sensible, progressive policy making.  We're not saying the world is going to end and fall apart, just that if you don't set up certain things now, for future generations, then we can predict the outcomes on future generations, and it won't be as open to humanity as if we made some changes to the way we do things now.


--------------------
We are the Divine Universe, Incarnate!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
    #14172118 - 03/23/11 07:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Emotion is an easy card to play for big business, media and government.  People will put all logic aside when they're told something emotionally powerful enough (And there aren't too many more powerful things that have been used over time by authority organisations than FEAR)




Pot. Kettle. Black.

It is the warm-mongers who are eschewing logic and instead trying to ram their agenda through based on nothing more than fear.

Quote:

They've taken it to another level - a level of denying the very facts UNDERLYING the policy in the first place.




The problem here, of course, is that they aren't denying facts at all. It is not a fact that man's burning of stuff will result in catastrophic climate change. Or even that it will result in statistically significant climate change. Nor is it a fact that any climate change (man-made or otherwise) is de facto harmful.

Quote:

This sort of politics, using people's fear and emotions for political and financial gain, is one of the most perverse uses of power I've seen in my lifetime.




Pot. Kettle. Black. How can you not see the screaming irony of what you are typing?

Quote:

a) The science is overwhelmingly on the side of those calling for more sustainable policy.




If by this you are trying to say that science is overwhelmingly on the side of the warm-mongers, then you are wrong.

Quote:

b) The people behind the push for this have a LOT to gain from the outcome they desire ...




If by "the people behind the push" you mean the warm-mongers who want to cripple the world's economy, then you are correct: they have a lot to gain.

Quote:

c) One side pushes fear...




The warm-mongers do, yes.

Quote:

... while another pushes progress...




Those who increase the quality of life immeasurably through burning stuff, yes. Those who want them to stop burning stuff.... not so much.

Quote:

This politicking is ideologically dangerous.




Agreed. This is why the warm-mongers need to back the fuck off and let real scientists do actual real science. Happily, some of them are actually finally beginning to do this. I believe this trend will accelerate over time.

Until then, the politicians should scrap all their ridiculous "carbon tax" and "carbon offset" nonsense and let folks get on with living their lives.






Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejebustrist
Stranger


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 79
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
    #14173082 - 03/23/11 10:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The problem here, of course, is that they aren't denying facts at all. It is not a fact that man's burning of stuff will result in catastrophic climate change. Or even that it will result in statistically significant climate change. Nor is it a fact that any climate change (man-made or otherwise) is de facto harmful.




I'm sorry but you simply cannot continue to say this.  It is agreed upon to the extent that anything in science is agreed upon, and there are countless studies as well as recent events which actually support these facts(food shortages, record heat, record snowfall, record floods, etc.)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStarter
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 1,148
Loc: Australia
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
    #14173097 - 03/23/11 10:25 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

That's not the reason why the socialists want to impose a carbon tax on Australian taxpayers. The real reason is to recoop money pissed away on their failed social experiments since they blew the 80 billion AUD that Howard left on the plate; not to mention feather their own nests in more pay rises.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/mps-in-line-for-big-pay-rises-under-new-remuneration-tribunal-powers/comments-fn59niix-1226027414940

This carbon tax is ill thoughout and policy on the run. It was little more than a white board concept when the ALP dump trucked it on the Australian people after they claimed in a pre-election promise that there would be no carbon tax. Since then Ju-liar Gillard has been demanding her MP's lie on her behalf too i.e. to claim the Greens, a far-left extremist organisation, are not running the show, even though the ALP does what Bob Brown wants.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/climate/labor-mps-ordered-to-distance-government-from-the-greens-as-it-bids-to-sell-carbon-tax/story-e6frg6xf-1226027370768

I don't know if you're Australian, and as far I'm concerned only the Aussies have the right to speak about the carbon tax in Australia, as it's Australian taxpayers who will cop it. I'm against the tax. I will vote for Tony Abbott. I'm sick of leftists and how they're out to fuck me over for what I have earned - even though the equity I have has already been fleeced on income taxes, franced shares and capital gains and stamp duty on the property I own. For your information Australians already pay higher electricity prices than the Asian nations we export the coal to.

Australian families are already mortgage stressed and will not accept the carbon tax which will hobble the Australian way of life. Not to mention lose jobs by making business less competitive i.e. drive it off-shore to nations that will never crucify themselves in a carbon tax. The Marxists can expect defeat at the next federal as Australians swing to the conservatives, and a forerunner of that is about to happen to that worthless Keneally bitch in the NSW vote!


--------------------
Convert Metric and Imperial.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
    #14173314 - 03/23/11 11:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'm sorry but you simply cannot continue to say this.




I can and will, because every word of it is one hundred per cent accurate. Re-read what I wrote and think about what I am actually saying, not what you think I am saying.

Quote:

It is agreed upon to the extent that anything in science is agreed upon...




Now you are just beclowning yourself. There are literally millions of things scientists agree on to a far greater extent than the possibility that humans burning stuff will have catastrophic (or even statistically significant) effects on global temperature.

Quote:

...and there are countless studies...




Studies which show that humans burning stuff will have catastrophic (or even statistically significant) effects on global temperature? Nope. There are no studies at all which show that.

Quote:

...as well as recent events which actually support...




Again, nope. There is nothing in any of these weather events that hasn't occurred countless times in the past, long before man started burning stuff in any significant amounts.

Quote:

...which actually support these facts...




You are misusing the word "facts".

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Before politicians deliberately enact policies which will undeniably damage national economies and reduce the standard of living of their constituents, they have an obligation to provide at least some proof that these policies won't have a more deleterious affect than the alleged problem the policies are ostensibly aimed at ameliorating. So far no politician has done this.






Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStarter
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 1,148
Loc: Australia
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
    #14173451 - 03/23/11 11:43 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Before politicians deliberately enact policies which will undeniably damage national economies and reduce the standard of living of their constituents, they have an obligation to provide at least some proof that these policies won't have a more deleterious affect than the alleged problem the policies are ostensibly aimed at ameliorating. So far no politician has done this.




100% agree - and so do most Australians based on their anger at a tax that will only screw Australia's economy and not make one iota of difference to the environment. It's a known that if Australia turned out the lights and went to the stoneage then China's growth of just 6 months would bridge the difference in CO2 output.

If this madness is imposed and if the whackos in the US seek to do the same the Americans can look to the trainwreck of Australia as the example not to follow. Obviously the left-wing logic at work is Australia has to take a hit when it did so well through the GFC. Needless to say it was the private sector of Aussie mining that braced Australia in the GFC, and yet  these same socialist scumbags (who want a carbon tax) also want a 40% mining tax too! It doesn't matter to them that it would screw self-funded retirees, super funds, shareholders, jobs in mining and how it would off-shore the industry to where business can be conducted without leftwing parasites.

Edited by Starter (03/23/11 11:45 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZenXi6
Illuminate
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 1,173
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Starter]
    #14173542 - 03/24/11 12:03 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, this has turned into a "left wing bashing" block.

I'm not saying the CARBON TAX, per se is necessarily the best outcome for the problem.
What I am advocating is responsibility when using shared resources.

When a business or individual pollutes, there are hidden costs for the clean up and rehabilitation of this, which a company or individual should pay for, and not expect to NOT PAY AT ALL, or leave it for future generations.  This is irresponsible and unsustainable.  In the end, that will mean the end to business.


The Gillard government's carbon tax is an attempt to tackle this problem by imposing a tax on something that has had a lot of scientific evidence (Climate Change in Australia) showing humans as the likely cause.  More specifically - CO2 emissions. 


The mining companies are mining something that is not theirs.  They do not own what comes from the ground, nor did they do anything to create it.  What they do is extract it, but at an environmental cost. 
As a shared resource that takes a long time to replenish, the companies should be taxed.

How the government spends the money is another issue, but they SHOULD be spending it on developing sustainable techniques, funding sustainable industry and encouraging research and more high-tech industry in Australia, so we don't become the world's mine and primary-material suppliers.

This same logic applies to all sorts of things, and SHOULD be where taxation, overall lays.  On the shared resources, how much we use and how much we damage and how much we repair.

This is what I am advocating and talking about. 
Why, precisely, should we not be financially and ethically responsible for that which pollutes, or that which is rightfully EVERYONE'S and EVERYTHINGS, when we are using it?


--------------------
We are the Divine Universe, Incarnate!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStarter
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 1,148
Loc: Australia
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: ZenXi6]
    #14174209 - 03/24/11 05:00 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

But this socialist Gillard government is not going to spend the carbon tax money on alternative energy R&D, as it's a ruse to fleece the people for money to cover their poor financial management. Look at the pathetic insulation scheem and the billions wasted on that. Every time the ALP comes to power they balls it up and then it's up to the conservatives to fix it.

If you really want to put your best foot forward you have to be credible and this ALP government taking orders from the Greens is not credible. In fact the left are not even good sports. They've whinged that this week's peaceful protests at the Parliament House about the carbon tax were "extreme". They even claim that they're like the US Tea Party.

Reality: We can all see what the left-wing is like, just take a look at this footage of the leftists in a frenzied protest at the Parliament House and costing hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage. The sad part is the feral-left rioting scumbags are now in charge of this country.

http://www.2ue.com.au/blogs/2ue-blog/found-footage-of-parliament-riot/20110324-1c7qq.html

As for the view that the mining companies simply take the money and run, not at all. You have as much opportunity as any Australian to buy shares and make money. The fact is the state doesn't put in a cent. All of the surveys, often by remote sensing, then the ground truthing, the engineering, the rail, the roads, the big machinery, the vast distances, the business plans and raw get up and go and money spent is all PRIVATE ENTERPRISE.

What's more there is environmental legislation that obliges mining companies to restore habitat after operations are complete and protect vulnerable species, i.e. the ICUN. There are numerous environmental scientist positions available as employment with mining companies. Same too for Aboriginal employment. Name the opportunities in Kakadu without the James Price Point 30 billion dollar LNG hub? What opportunities are there for the Cape without mining? Is Noel Pearson FOS?

Edited by Starter (03/24/11 05:11 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineseeker28
student
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 686
Loc: The 28th Dimension
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Starter]
    #14174618 - 03/24/11 08:35 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Thankyou Zenxi6.

All of these damages to the collective environment we are getting away with, both scott and financially freely, are called negative externalities.

The price on pollution is what is known as a Pigovian Tax. This makes us accountable, financially - for we are in a capitalist system where money talks - for our negative externalities: our reckless, apathetic fucking-up of the commons.

Heard of a notion called The Tragedy of the Commons?

Say there's a field right, a paddock, and EVERYONE in the town gets to use that paddock to raise some livestock and make a living. Well, one guy called Johnny Proctor wants to make more money than everyone else, so in the middle of the night, he pulls up with his truck full of cattle, ready to exploit the luscious grass in this paddock for his own selfish gain.

WELL!! shocked is Mr Proctor to discover that EVERYONE ELSE in the town is there too, all embarrassed and awkward at how selfish they all were.

The moral of the story is that if there is no disincentive to plunder natural shared resources for personal gain, then we're gonna get a whole lot of selfish arseholes plundering the shit out of our paddock, and leaving it bare in a matter of days.

The thing is, we've only got one paddock, one planet, and if we don't institute a god-damned disincentive for the selfish arseholes (BHP, Rio Tinto, Coal mines, Gas plants, Bore tappers, Loggers) out there then we're going to end up with an arid wasteland in a few decades or centuries to "call Australia home".

Well fuck that, I say.




It's not even our home to plunder anyway.

Edited by seeker28 (03/24/11 08:36 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejebustrist
Stranger


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 79
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Phred]
    #14174654 - 03/24/11 08:47 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
a lot of misinformation likely originating from a misunderstanding of the scientific process




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Statements_by_dissenting_organizations

Quote:

no scientific body of national or international standing rejects the findings of human-induced effects on global warming




The data is in, human activity is the chief cause of the warming effects we have seen over the last 100 years, and the sharply accelerated rates of the last 30.  This is indisputable, unless you have some new data that no one has yet seen?  Oh wait you're just an internet libertarian with no scientific training...

I also recommend the IPCC report on climate change, even though it is a few years old and outdated in some areas.

Your claim that a carbon tax would be a drain on the economy is also unfounded and possibly even false.  There are many reasons to think that it would boost innovation in new sectors of the economy, as well as mitigating the the drain of higher public health costs due to increased pollution.  Sure it might be a drain on businesses that refuse to adapt, but that is the way of the "free" market.  The cost of doing nothing will be far greater when we face food and water shortages, more extreme weather and higher sea levels just to name a few.

Edited by jebustrist (03/24/11 08:49 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
    #14174790 - 03/24/11 09:27 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The data is in, human activity is the chief cause of the warming effects we have seen over the last 100 years, and the sharply accelerated rates of the last 30.




Actually, no. That is not the case at all. No one has shown that the temperature changes recorded in the last century or the last three decades are attributable to humans burning stuff, nor has the most reliable data even shown that temperature changes have accelerated (much less sharply accelerated) over the last three decades. Repeating over and over that this has been shown does nothing to enhance your credibility.

Quote:

I also recommend the IPCC report on climate change, even though it is a few years old and outdated in some areas.




If by "outdated" you mean "thoroughly debunked" then for once you have made a factual statement.

Quote:

Your claim that a carbon tax would be a drain on the economy is also unfounded and possibly even false. 




Don't be absurd. Every tax is a drain on the economy.

Quote:

There are many reasons to think that it would boost innovation in new sectors of the economy...




There are no reasons to think this.

Quote:

... as well as mitigating the the drain of higher public health costs due to increased pollution.




Now you're just being ridiculous. The tax won't reduce carbon emissions by a gram, they will increase the cost of people's energy bills. Therefore the effect on health will be zero.

Quote:

The cost of doing nothing will be far greater when we face food and water shortages, more extreme weather and higher sea levels just to name a few.




Groundless assertion in at least three ways:

1) there is no evidence any of these things will happen
2) there is no evidence that if any of these things does happen, it is due to humans burning stuff
3) there is no evidence that the cost of dealing with these things if they ever do happen will exceed the cost of all these various carbon taxes.



Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStarter
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 1,148
Loc: Australia
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: seeker28]
    #14174816 - 03/24/11 09:37 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I've read the "Tragedy of the Commons" and its central message is not in dispute. What is, is how will this farce of a carbon tax, implimented by a known fraudulent and lying government, actually work?

Listen, Gillard was NOT voted in. She back stabbed PM Rudd in a coup. Not to mention the ALP only just scraped in as a minority government with a tenuous hold on power by having sold out to the Greens - a radical leftist organisation. The ALP has a major credibility issue and that's NOT helped by the ALP's pre-election claim that there would be no carbon tax. Yes, on such a shitty platform this tax has been pimped.

The reality: the carbon tax in Australia will not help the environment at all. It may make the deluded sleep better at night with them thinking it has helped the environment but that's all it will do. The money will be pissed away on more big government bloat, the taxpayers will have their living costs made more expensive and jobs will vanish as manufacturing and even mining set sail to friendlier shores. Great huh.

If the aim of the left is to simply screw over the living standards of everyday people why not just come out and say it. Hey, say that you want an 'austerity tax', as that would at least be more honest! Seriously, there's no need for a carbon tax. Peak Oil will dictate people's energy use and living standards by market forces. Prices on petrol and electricity have already gone up 50% in the last 5 years. That's a 7% increase per annum. Doubling time every 10 years.


--------------------
Convert Metric and Imperial.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejebustrist
Stranger


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 79
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: Starter]
    #14175155 - 03/24/11 11:07 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Groundless assertion in at least three ways:

1) there is no evidence any of these things will happen
2) there is no evidence that if any of these things does happen, it is due to humans burning stuff
3) there is no evidence that the cost of dealing with these things if they ever do happen will exceed the cost of all these various carbon taxes.






Read. The. Fucking. Report.  Saying there is no evidence is just proof of your (politically motivated?) ignorance.  You don't want it to be true. http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/ because I doubt you have the ability or intellectual honesty to read anything longer than a few pages.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Tea Party Politics comes to Australia [Re: jebustrist]
    #14175286 - 03/24/11 11:34 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I will remind you once again that this is not the forum in which to argue the science (or pseudo-science) underlying the claim that humans burning stuff will lead to catastrophic (or even statistically significant) temperature increases. As such, your graph has no worth - in this forum. If you want to do a "duelling graphs" or "duelling experts" scenario, do it in Conspiracies and Coverups or in Science and Technology. This forum is for discussing policy.

And even assuming that graph (which contradicts other graphs from other equally credible sources) is accurate, it does nothing to show that humans burning stuff will lead to catastrophic (or even statistically significant) temperature increases. At best - at the VERY best - it shows that CO2 levels are higher today than they are believed to have been in the last 400,00 years.

As an aside, rational readers of the thread will be unsurprised that the warm-mongers lie even about their own cherry-picked "evidence". Compare the claim in the caption of the graph with the actual graph itself. Did you catch it, too? How can a rational person have any confidence in the proclamations of those too stupid (or too dishonest) to even describe correctly what their own graph shows?




Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale, Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* What is your favorite political party??? Cornholio 1,435 13 08/21/03 05:53 PM
by silversoul7
* Government Growth, the Party of Lincoln, and George W. Bush Ancalagon 1,077 2 01/17/14 01:34 AM
by theindianrepublic
* Bush whitehouse covers up environmental catastrophe phi1618 1,060 10 04/05/04 04:35 PM
by phi1618
* Two party system? phi1618 1,276 9 10/04/04 10:57 AM
by phi1618
* From the Libertarian Party Anonymous 482 1 03/21/03 12:44 PM
by psilo25
* Just Say No!...To Politics
( 1 2 all )
Autonomous 3,726 35 04/06/22 06:39 AM
by how.psilly.of.me
* Libertarian, Green party candidates to debate in New York DigitalDuality 1,199 12 09/04/04 08:29 AM
by Ancalagon
* Party Loyalty DoctorJ 693 3 05/12/04 02:34 PM
by silversoul7

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
4,137 topic views. 4 members, 4 guests and 11 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.034 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 15 queries.