|
Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
Dumbing down the mystery.
#14120539 - 03/14/11 05:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Would a creator (God), create an existence that could only be understood completely by itself, or do we have penguin's chance in hell of grasping it for ourselves ?
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: Brainstem] 1
#14120650 - 03/14/11 05:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
penguin
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: Icelander]
#14120679 - 03/14/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
But chance / probability doesn't rule it out completely, only indicates that it is highly unlikely.
|
NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: Brainstem]
#14120710 - 03/14/11 05:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
No, we have absolutely no chance whatsoever of understanding the ultimate nature of existence, because it is utterly irrational.
|
Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: NetDiver]
#14120757 - 03/14/11 05:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Does the Universe not do irrationality ?
|
giza


Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 2,089
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: Brainstem]
#14120784 - 03/14/11 05:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
If you lived longer than the current mortality rate, I could see it happening. It would take quite a lot of studying and intuition to learn everything.
But you never know, might be someone out there with a capable mind.
So, yes.
Edited by giza (03/14/11 06:00 PM)
|
Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: giza]
#14120817 - 03/14/11 06:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think it would take an extended lifespan, nor a knowledge of every individual facet of existence, It could just take a series of key experiences and subsequent reactions or realizations. It could already be known, but not consciously conceivable.
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head


Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: Brainstem]
#14121470 - 03/14/11 07:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Which state of mind are you trying to understand? Some states of mind answer questions compared to other states of mind, some may have no questions.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
|
Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: circastes]
#14121517 - 03/14/11 08:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I was thinking how something can be known and not consciously conceivable ?
|
NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: Brainstem]
#14121782 - 03/14/11 08:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Brainstem said: Does the Universe not do irrationality ?
Oh, the Universe does irrationality, and so do we. The problem is that the nature of irrationality is not understanding. We cannot understand ourselves.
|
Brainstem
_@_y



Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: NetDiver] 3
#14121883 - 03/14/11 09:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Trying to understand ourselves is irrational, and something that encapsulates us from nature. No other life form does this.
|
durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 29 days
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: Brainstem]
#14122132 - 03/14/11 09:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I hypothesize that consciousness is a defense mechanism which works on an irrational system.
If we were to somehow understand our own consciousness it would compromise its strength as a defense mechanism.
|
Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos


Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: Brainstem]
#14123350 - 03/15/11 01:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Brainstem said: Would a creator (God), create an existence that could only be understood completely by itself, or do we have penguin's chance in hell of grasping it for ourselves ?
A creator god could. But it is impossible in this life to understand even what goes on in this world let alone this universe.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: Brainstem]
#14125675 - 03/15/11 04:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I see consciousness as an still evolving mirroring system of our brain. It only takes time until we will fully understand its mechanisms and principles, which imho are rooted in physics, chemistry and such as well as just the coherent connectedness of everything, metaphysically conjuring up a dimension of additional (maybe preexistencial) happening and existence some might call 'mystery' yet, until we will find out what it really is.
|
durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 29 days
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14127085 - 03/15/11 08:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: I see consciousness as an still evolving mirroring system of our brain. It only takes time until we will fully understand its mechanisms and principles, which imho are rooted in physics, chemistry and such as well as just the coherent connectedness of everything, metaphysically conjuring up a dimension of additional (maybe preexistencial) happening and existence some might call 'mystery' yet, until we will find out what it really is.
I like that idea. I'm not so sure if we will ever truly find out what it is because the goal posts may keep shifting.
For instance as our society becomes more complex the illusion becomes harder and harder to escape. So it is going to continue to get harder for people to understand the 'mystery'. Also the current danger we face is becoming locked in a scientific and logical understanding of how things work. I'm not saying that things are not scientific and logical but there is a chance that they are not. So we must always have some 'crazy' people out there who want to approach life from a different perspective to the masses.
The other interesting question that arises from this is "what would the psychadelic experiences of an early homo sapien be?" Say one that was living 100,000 years ago. Arguably these people would have been living closer to the truth than modern humans so perhaps the psychadelic experience for them would not be so profound... It might have simply clarified what they already knew.
For us, who believe so strongly in the illusions of society, the psychadelic experience is so mind-blowing and life-changing because we finally get to see things in a more simple and naturalistic way. The first strong 'trip' seems to be the most profound and then we start to become accustomed to tripping and the process becomes more about reinforcement and clarification. I personally don't get my mind blown everytime I trip anymore. The psychadelic experiences are more subtle now. Even the visions are less powerful.
I've only tripped about 10 times so i'd like to hear a veteran's perspective on what I've just said.
|
Cups
technically "here"


Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,925
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: durantz]
#14127649 - 03/15/11 09:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I've only tripped about 10 times so i'd like to hear a veteran's perspective on what I've just said.
Just wait.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
|
deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: durantz]
#14128324 - 03/15/11 11:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
durantz said: For instance as our society becomes more complex the illusion becomes harder and harder to escape. So it is going to continue to get harder for people to understand the 'mystery'. Also the current danger we face is becoming locked in a scientific and logical understanding of how things work. I'm not saying that things are not scientific and logical but there is a chance that they are not.
Why would we NOT use the scientific method to investigate the empirical end of something? Do you have a better alternative in mind?
Quote:
Brainstem said: Trying to understand ourselves is irrational, and something that encapsulates us from nature. No other life form does this.
Why is trying to understand ourselves irrational?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
|
durantz
Stranger



Registered: 05/09/09
Posts: 697
Last seen: 9 years, 29 days
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: deCypher]
#14128699 - 03/16/11 01:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Why would we NOT use the scientific method to investigate the empirical end of something? Do you have a better alternative in mind?
Quote:
I'm not saying that things are not scientific and logical but there is a chance that they are not.
That answers your first question.
As for the second one. Why would you rank alternatives in terms of some qualitative concept such as better and worse? The simple fact that you are using a qualitative measure to describe a quantitative method of discovery shows that your language is contradicting yourself...
How could you even suggest that scientific method is 'better' or 'best'? Do those qualitative descriptions even apply to what is simply a method of discovery?
I'm saying that we must not fall into the trap of presupposing that the scientific method can adequately explain EVERYTHING. I don't even understand your question "is there a better alternative?" It doesn't even make sense because it is very out of context.
Edit: sorry i reread this and it sounded a bit harsh Not meant to be. Sorry
Edited by durantz (03/16/11 01:20 AM)
|
NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: deCypher]
#14129831 - 03/16/11 09:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deCypher said: Why is trying to understand ourselves irrational? 
A better way of putting it might be that we can only understand ourselves through irrationality, because that is our nature.
|
Bodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*



Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan
|
Re: Dumbing down the mystery. [Re: NetDiver]
#14132350 - 03/16/11 05:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
Brainstem said: Does the Universe not do irrationality ?
Oh, the Universe does irrationality, and so do we. The problem is that the nature of irrationality is not understanding. We cannot understand ourselves.
But we can understand ourselves, the beauty of our minds. There are no irrationalities in the universe only that which you do not understand.
|
|