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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander]
#14121220 - 03/14/11 07:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Here's an interesting perspective and backs my idea that the most skillful selfishness is almost always of benefit to others. http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/07/how-selfish-are-you/
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14121253 - 03/14/11 07:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
An Octopus said:
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Icelander said: While we may not only act on our personal survival instincts we always will act for the benefit of our self image.
What about serial killers? Genocidal dictators? Monastic devotees? These types of people seem much more concerned with power and self-fulfillment (or in the case of monks, power and self-transcendence) than they do maintaining a good "self-image." What of hermits?
Quote:
iThink said:
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An Octopus said:
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iThink said: The scenario you put forth is nothing more than a misfiring of the compassion tool for survival. If you could do something to surely save the person while posing no danger to yourself then it would be more beneficial to the species and not a misfiring.
Even when morality helps the human race as a whole how does that mean it is inherently "good" in an objective sense? It is purely subjective because you are defining good to mean beneficial for humanity. Why is it "right" to push ourselves to behave in a certain way? To satisfy the impersonal unfeeling forces of the universe?
I am not defining "good" to mean "beneficial for humanity." Beneficial to all life in the Multiverse would be more accurate... but even then that's not really correct. I don't necessarily think that morality is objective; if it were then we would not be having this debate. I also dont think it is 100% subjective. It is simply an accessory to our mental, spiritual, and physical evolution, and all beings will perceive it differently until all beings are enlightened.
Show me evidence that everything is interconnected, and even if it is all interconnected why should that make it "right" to benefit things you don't experience first hand.
Also, you are saying morality is both objective and subjective? Give me some evidence backing morality to be objective.
Lastly, what do you mean by spiritual. You believe in things beyond the physical world?
No, I did not say that morality is both objective and subjective reading comprehension plz... I said it is neither objective nor subjective.
And I believe that many, many aspects of the physical world lie beyond what can be measured by empirical reasoning. Reality is an illusion, just a product of our own subtle consciousnesses.
Have you guys not done shrooms or what? 
What about serial killers? Genocidal dictators? Monastic devotees? These types of people seem much more concerned with power and self-fulfillment (or in the case of monks, power and self-transcendence) than they do maintaining a good "self-image." What of hermits?
They all serve their self image imo. The serial sees himself as smarter, superior and others as saps and chumps (study serial killers and you will see this attitude as a common theme)
monks see themselves as humble, or holy, or righteous
Dictators see themselves as god like and all knowing.
Hermits see themselves as superior or to protect the self image by not interacting with those they feel superior.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14121261 - 03/14/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I entertain the idea that within the human genome there is room for self sacrifice. I don't think it generally applies to strangers (regardless of their status and perceived worth as measured against ones own), but it can take on many forms. We develop relationship with other individuals, and perhaps even organizations in which there is seen a common identity. The easiest of these is the parent/child relationship, but it could be extrapolated.
But when a sacrifice is made, the idea is that the 'self' isn't being put into danger, though ones body may die, but that the 'self' is being protected. Saving another body would still be a selfish thing to do. It is no more or less selfish to take a bullet, as it is to stand clear.
Having said that, the perceptions involved in light of action or inaction may entail good feelings, or bad feelings, pride or shame, depending on the associations made (or not) in the brain regarding relationship status with the other parties. Subjectively, there are right and wrong things to do and they will differ from one individual to another, and that subjective truth is revealed and experienced whether we like it or not.
This all comes down to the usefulness of sacrifice in propagating the species (Example: It would be illogical for a 15 year old to take a bullet for a 80 year old.), and it appears that the bond of sacrifice is generally stronger the more the DNA is similar, and though that seems true in practice, it could simply be a matter of the coincidental nature of such relationships.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (03/14/11 07:21 PM)
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An Octopus
cephalopod



Registered: 03/11/11
Posts: 73
Loc: Indiana
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander]
#14121264 - 03/14/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think I can agree with you that humans, like all animals, are inherently selfish creatures, driven firstly by survival instincts, and then by sexual and artistic instincts, and then by self-fulfillment (as you say, maintenance of self-image)... but there's a lot going on beyond that, man. Most people just haven't accessed it yet.
-------------------- vibes and stuff
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HippieChick8
seeker of justice



Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14121271 - 03/14/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
An Octopus said: And I believe that many, many aspects of the physical world lie beyond what can be measured by empirical reasoning. Reality is an illusion, just a product of our own subtle consciousnesses.
Have you guys not done shrooms or what? 
Good answer. I thought you were trying to argue that morality is objective.
I have done shrooms a few times. I didn't lose my ego or sense of self or aspire to transcend myself. Instead, they taught me to be more accepting of myself.
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An Octopus
cephalopod



Registered: 03/11/11
Posts: 73
Loc: Indiana
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Quote:
HippieChick8 said:
Quote:
An Octopus said: And I believe that many, many aspects of the physical world lie beyond what can be measured by empirical reasoning. Reality is an illusion, just a product of our own subtle consciousnesses.
Have you guys not done shrooms or what? 
Good answer. I thought you were trying to argue that morality is objective.
No, ma'am. I got over that silly notion right around the same time I quit going to Mass.
Quote:
I have done shrooms a few times. I didn't lose my ego or sense of self or aspire to transcend myself. Instead, they taught me to be more accepting of myself. 
Wait till you get that first ego death. Things will change. And you will be even more accepting of yourself - transcendence does not mean rejection, but you may come to terms with the fact that your "self" is a mere product of your mind's perception and that of the beings around you.
-------------------- vibes and stuff
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HippieChick8
seeker of justice



Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander]
#14121314 - 03/14/11 07:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Hermits see themselves as superior or to protect the self image by not interacting with those they feel superior.
It's interesting that the subject of hermits came up because I am a member of a hermit philosophy board and I was just over there earlier tonight. A couple years ago someone on there posted about how marijuana helped with his introspection (that's mostly what they post about is their introspection) and asked others to comment. Everyone who commented said that they couldn't possibly use drugs to foul the purity of their minds or some BS like that. That's when I decided I had better find a more open minded philosophy forum and ended up over here.
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An Octopus
cephalopod



Registered: 03/11/11
Posts: 73
Loc: Indiana
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Quote:
HippieChick8 said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Hermits see themselves as superior or to protect the self image by not interacting with those they feel superior.
It's interesting that the subject of hermits came up because I am a member of a hermit philosophy board and I was just over there earlier tonight. A couple years ago someone on there posted about how marijuana helped with his introspection (that's mostly what they post about is their introspection) and asked others to comment. Everyone who commented said that they couldn't possibly use drugs to foul the purity of their minds or some BS like that. That's when I decided I had better find a more open minded philosophy forum and ended up over here.
Drugs are a great way to gain greater insight into yourself, your world, your universe. They can only take you so far though, because they're only temporary. I think of psychedelic trips as analogous to scuba-diving, or skydiving (I hear that one a lot). Once you're enlightened, though, you have gills and wings.
-------------------- vibes and stuff
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14121351 - 03/14/11 07:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
An Octopus said:
Quote:
Icelander said: While we may not only act on our personal survival instincts we always will act for the benefit of our self image.
What about serial killers? Genocidal dictators? Monastic devotees? These types of people seem much more concerned with power and self-fulfillment (or in the case of monks, power and self-transcendence) than they do maintaining a good "self-image." What of hermits?
Quote:
iThink said:
Quote:
An Octopus said:
Quote:
iThink said: The scenario you put forth is nothing more than a misfiring of the compassion tool for survival. If you could do something to surely save the person while posing no danger to yourself then it would be more beneficial to the species and not a misfiring.
Even when morality helps the human race as a whole how does that mean it is inherently "good" in an objective sense? It is purely subjective because you are defining good to mean beneficial for humanity. Why is it "right" to push ourselves to behave in a certain way? To satisfy the impersonal unfeeling forces of the universe?
I am not defining "good" to mean "beneficial for humanity." Beneficial to all life in the Multiverse would be more accurate... but even then that's not really correct. I don't necessarily think that morality is objective; if it were then we would not be having this debate. I also dont think it is 100% subjective. It is simply an accessory to our mental, spiritual, and physical evolution, and all beings will perceive it differently until all beings are enlightened.
Show me evidence that everything is interconnected, and even if it is all interconnected why should that make it "right" to benefit things you don't experience first hand.
Also, you are saying morality is both objective and subjective? Give me some evidence backing morality to be objective.
Lastly, what do you mean by spiritual. You believe in things beyond the physical world?
No, I did not say that morality is both objective and subjective reading comprehension plz... I said it is neither objective nor subjective.
And I believe that many, many aspects of the physical world lie beyond what can be measured by empirical reasoning. Reality is an illusion, just a product of our own subtle consciousnesses.
Have you guys not done shrooms or what? 
How stupid of me. How could I not see that you were actually creating your own category that has yet to be discovered!?
Your arguments are no more than baseless ramblings commonly found in the S&M and Psychedelic forum.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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An Octopus
cephalopod



Registered: 03/11/11
Posts: 73
Loc: Indiana
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: 4896744]
#14121385 - 03/14/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said:
How stupid of me. How could I not see that you were actually creating your own category that has yet to be discovered!?
Your arguments are no more than baseless ramblings commonly found in the S&M and Psychedelic forum.
I'll ignore your inability to debate with civility and just clarify: morality is highly subjective between human beings. We all forge our own unique life goals and paths towards enlightenment. It may or may not be objective in the context of the greater Multiverse - I do not know the answer to this yet.
Your arguments are no more than baseless ramblings commonly found in Libertarian blogs and Satanism forums. Ho-ho.
-------------------- vibes and stuff
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4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14121507 - 03/14/11 08:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
An Octopus said:
Quote:
iThink said:
How stupid of me. How could I not see that you were actually creating your own category that has yet to be discovered!?
Your arguments are no more than baseless ramblings commonly found in the S&M and Psychedelic forum.
I'll ignore your inability to debate with civility and just clarify: morality is highly subjective between human beings. We all forge our own unique life goals and paths towards enlightenment. It may or may not be objective in the context of the greater Multiverse - I do not know the answer to this yet.
Your arguments are no more than baseless ramblings commonly found in Libertarian blogs and Satanism forums. Ho-ho.
Wow, I will totally accept that. It was just name an admission of defeat padded by name calling.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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An Octopus
cephalopod



Registered: 03/11/11
Posts: 73
Loc: Indiana
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: 4896744]
#14121556 - 03/14/11 08:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said:
Quote:
An Octopus said:
Quote:
iThink said:
How stupid of me. How could I not see that you were actually creating your own category that has yet to be discovered!?
Your arguments are no more than baseless ramblings commonly found in the S&M and Psychedelic forum.
I'll ignore your inability to debate with civility and just clarify: morality is highly subjective between human beings. We all forge our own unique life goals and paths towards enlightenment. It may or may not be objective in the context of the greater Multiverse - I do not know the answer to this yet.
Your arguments are no more than baseless ramblings commonly found in Libertarian blogs and Satanism forums. Ho-ho.
Wow, I will totally accept that. It was just name an admission of defeat padded by name calling.
...
-------------------- vibes and stuff
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Grok
Has Been a Bad Boy


Registered: 12/03/03
Posts: 1,262
Loc: Greener Pastures
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus] 1
#14122352 - 03/14/11 10:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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The real enemy is the dissonance that derives from our twin drives to compete against each other while cooperating enough to maintain a civil society. Competition is the fundamental fact of life. At the end of the day you have to grab that banana before the next monkey if you want to eat. Some win, some lose, simple as that; why get all bent out of shape about it? That's the mechanics of life itself and it's quite beautiful in its own way. I've taken a largely guilt-free attitude towards living to ensure my own satisfaction above everything else in light of seeing it this way.
Capitalism gets a bad rap but I contend that it harnesses our competitive (call it greedy if that makes you happy) nature and turns it into socially favorable outcomes. The fact is there will always be winners and losers, unless you have some authoritarian redistributive regime. But even that will warp the incentives to produce large-scale material well-being and will leave everyone worse off in the end.
Life isn't fair by most folks standards and has never cared a lick for utopian ideals. I don't really worry about what the bigger picture is anymore. Whatever it is or isn't has little relevance to this predicament we're in, so why waste the time trying to pin down something that in all likelihood cannot be ascertained or confirmed by any empirically valid means. You could be making yourself happy with (insert your favorite pursuit here) instead. Life's short. Carpe Diem.
-------------------- Entropy is increasing. To send me a PM, go to my journal
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