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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14118729 - 03/14/11 10:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Of course it first brings us benefit. We don't do anything unless it first brings us benefit. If you think about it I won't have to explain it to you like I've done here countless times.
And your subjective views and musings on what is going on is not worth anything more than anyone else's on the planet. Thats why this forum encourages evidence.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (03/14/11 10:28 AM)
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An Octopus
cephalopod



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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander]
#14118953 - 03/14/11 11:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Of course it first brings us benefit. We don't do anything unless it first brings us benefit. If you think about it I won't have to explain it to you like I've done here countless times.
And your subjective views and musings on what is going on is not worth anything more than anyone else's on the planet. Thats why this forum encourages evidence.
I don't see a whole lot of evidence supporting your claims either there Captain Objective
-------------------- vibes and stuff
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander]
#14119027 - 03/14/11 11:58 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Icelander said: Been studying human nature's dark side a lot lately. Plenty of it and easy to find. From the Middle East to Corporations in the West and the guy on the street ripping off and killing and fighting in bars and the list goes on and on.
In fact there is so much of it we cannot but conclude it is basic to our nature. So isn't nature the real culprit here?
I think the real enemy is not exactly nature, but our lack of ability to handle it. But then again, that is just part of nature. It's a battle. Regardless of whether "good/bad" is a human construct, living is a challenge at the very least.
some people bang their head against the wall when they go to jail
some people complain its too hard to move after fatting up on fatcakes
or maybe its their parents or somebody else's fault for making them this way
who's the real enemy?
it's easiest to blame something else, or to say it's just too hard. Jesus will save me anyway, right?
"let us not pretend, that it could have been any other way"
Edited by the bizzle (03/14/11 11:59 AM)
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14119050 - 03/14/11 12:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
An Octopus said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Of course it first brings us benefit. We don't do anything unless it first brings us benefit. If you think about it I won't have to explain it to you like I've done here countless times.
And your subjective views and musings on what is going on is not worth anything more than anyone else's on the planet. Thats why this forum encourages evidence.
I don't see a whole lot of evidence supporting your claims either there Captain Objective 
Show me evidence that showing compassion is the "right" thing to do.
The first step to bringing on the understanding that all morals are relative/subjective survival tools is to understand how morals came about.
Morals came about to allow for the co-existence of members of a species. This co-existence gave members of the groups added benefits that they couldn't reap on their own. That is the only reason we have a sense of compassion and empathy.
This is the reason humans get along so well with dogs. They are also "herd" animals.
Another thing, is would you say that a wolverine or badger is evil? Both of these species are extremely aggressive and will literally attack other animals for the fun of it. It sounds awful if a human was to do the same thing doesn't it? The thing is that this action is in no way inherently bad. This abnormal amount of aggression just increased their chances of reproduction due to their increase in fighting ability.
What it comes down to is there being no "good" or "bad". It just is what it is. This is just what happens when matter is subjected to the forces of our universe. To assume anything more or less is baseless speculation.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14119104 - 03/14/11 12:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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do a search of my posts on the subject.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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An Octopus
cephalopod



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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander]
#14119204 - 03/14/11 12:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Nah its cool; we've strayed pretty far from the original topic.
I've always struggled with objective vs. subjective morality. When you reduce it to the most basic forms of animal nature, survival instincts, everything working towards a natural drive to propagate the species, then it is extremely difficult to logically attribute any objective "morals" to a given situation, like you say with the badger, that's a good example.
That doesn't mean that morals do not or cannot exist. I don't think its beyond the realm of possibility that human beings (and maybe some other animals as well?) can examine the world and the universe at a higher level than can other species, due to our extremely powerful brains, and determine a set of rules based upon our knowledge of the interconnectedness of all life that helps us to make compassionate, or as we say, "good," decisions. I would argue, in fact, that morality is an evolutionary trait.
This is a review of a book that deals with morality as an evolutionary trait, unique to humans not because we are human, but because we are highly evolved animals: http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/ep03133141.pdf
That should satiate your lust for evidence. And it is consistent with my Buddhist leanings, which tell me that all beings are essentially climbing up a ladder leading from basic survival instincts, to morality, to eventual unity and oneness with the entire Multiverse.
(edited for grammar)
Edited by An Octopus (03/14/11 12:42 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14119238 - 03/14/11 12:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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If I decide to sacrifice my life for you, you might think that a selfless act. Actually however I am acting out my personally chosen ethics. They feel right to me, they are in accordance with the kind of person I want to be and how I want to see myself. This is all for my personal benefit and must be in place before I will sacrifice for your well being.
Group morals are similar but for the fact that we give up our personal ethics for group morality in a effort to ensure our better survival chances and comfort.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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An Octopus
cephalopod



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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander]
#14119260 - 03/14/11 12:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Incorrect. You sacrificing yourself for me may be your personal choice based on your own ethics, but you do it to benefit me, not you. To say otherwise would be ridiculous. In addition, if people act only according to their own interests and desire for self-fulfillment, there would be no such thing as "sacrificing yourself for me." Such things go waaaaaay beyond the basic survival instincts over which you obsess.
From that Levy book; this should help clarify my position:
Quote:
"We are able to transform our minds by transforming the worlds with which we interact; our minds create the tools that create our minds (p. 203). The ways in which we change ourselves and our environment, change ourselves by changing our environment, illustrate the extent to which our evolutionary past does not predict our future lives. We are evolved beings, moral animals, but we exhibit a degree of behavioural flexibility unknown elsewhere in the animal kingdom. Our biology constrains us, but these constraints are relatively few and broad. We can build our future, not in spite of our nature, but because of it: evolution has gifted us with the ability to create ever new, and ever changing, social worlds, to control our destinies and fight injustice. We are short-sighted, greedy, aggressive and xenophobic, but we are also rational and just, generous and hospitable. Which of our many, at once natural and social, conflicting dispositions shall have the last or most significant say is not laid down in our biology (xv)."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14119316 - 03/14/11 12:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Wrong.
Again if I did not see any benefit in helping you I would not. And seeing benefit is how I want to relate to myself and the world. That is a choice based on how I believe and to act in accordance with my beliefs is what feels good and right to me and so is of great benefit to me as a person. In the same way if I see no benefit in helping you I will not based on my evaluation of what will cause me to feel the best about myself and life in general. No man acts without reason and those reasons are based in what we belief to be the best course of action for ourselves.
Would you sacrifice yourself if you did not think it good?????And being good is of great benefit to you, right.
Edited by Icelander (03/14/11 01:01 PM)
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An Octopus
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander] 1
#14119363 - 03/14/11 01:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Icelander said: Wrong.
Again if I did not see any benefit in helping you I would not. And seeing benefit is how I want to relate to myself and the world. That is a choice based on how I believe and to act in accordance with my beliefs is what feels good and right to me and so is of great benefit to me as a person. In the same way if I see no benefit in helping you I will not based on my evaluation of what will cause me to feel the best about myself and life in general. No man acts without reason and those reasons are based in what we belief to be the best course of action for ourselves.
Oh...kay..... so explain how sacrificing yourself to save another's life is "the best course of action for you." It may be the best course of action from a utilitarian perspective, or from a societal one, an emotional one or *gasp* a moral one, but there is no benefit to you in ending your life unless you do not accept death as the end of life, which I believe you do based upon your egocentric views.
Quote:
Would you sacrifice yourself if you did not think it good?????And being good is of great benefit to you, right.
No offense, but your argument seems to be more or less falling apart here. I'm actually rather surprised that you took this route. I recommend hopping off the Nietzsche bandwagon for awhile; he was not correct about everything.
-------------------- vibes and stuff
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deCypher



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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander]
#14119387 - 03/14/11 01:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: We don't do anything unless it first brings us benefit.
Or unless it benefits the species.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Icelander
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14119422 - 03/14/11 01:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Oh...kay..... so explain how sacrificing yourself to save another's life is "the best course of action for you." It may be the best course of action from a utilitarian perspective, or from a societal one, an emotional one or *gasp* a moral one, but there is no benefit to you in ending your life unless you do not accept death as the end of life, which I believe you do based upon your egocentric views.
It's not the best course of action for me. That 's the point. We all act in accordance with our personal values and beliefs and those values and beliefs are what we deem most important to us. The benefit to us is always there. Sometimes there is greater or lesser benefit to others also.
Would you give your life to save the devil if you thought the devil was evil and would bring great suffering to the world? Likely not. Would you give your life for your child if they were in danger? Likely yes. And if you did not then your fear would prevent it which is another way of acting for yourself based on your beliefs.
And if you want to point out how an argument is falling apart you have to demonstrate or explain how. Your word is not enough.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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numonkei
Back! From thedigestive tractof dave theiguana!

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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander]
#14119513 - 03/14/11 01:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Icelander said: Aren't we all greedy to some extent? Have you shared your excess wealth (beyond very basic food and shelter) with the needy?
Hell, even simply existing in our state as we understand it is greedy, if not on an intentional level. We sustain ourselves by using resources that could be utilized by something else, from the living creatures we eat to sustain our bodies to the space we build our homes on that could otherwise be occupied by vegetative life.
I've been wondering about that, is it necessarily "greed" if it's fully unintentional? Surely there is a distinction between greed for excess and greed for poverty of bare existence.
~Monk
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An Octopus
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: numonkei]
#14119636 - 03/14/11 02:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
numonkei said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Aren't we all greedy to some extent? Have you shared your excess wealth (beyond very basic food and shelter) with the needy?
Hell, even simply existing in our state as we understand it is greedy, if not on an intentional level. We sustain ourselves by using resources that could be utilized by something else, from the living creatures we eat to sustain our bodies to the space we build our homes on that could otherwise be occupied by vegetative life.
I've been wondering about that, is it necessarily "greed" if it's fully unintentional? Surely there is a distinction between greed for excess and greed for poverty of bare existence.
~Monk
If you use that definition of greed, meaning "having things" or "getting things," then all living creatures are inherently greedy. I prefer to define greed as the attainment of resources for attainment's sake alone. For example, I buy a computer because it gives me access to a wealth of information that I can use for good or ill. If I buy seventeen computers because I have more money than I know what to do with, knowing that there is no benefit to myself or others as a result of my action, then I am being greedy.
See my first post in this topic re: greed and individualism.
Quote:
Icelander said: Oh...kay..... so explain how sacrificing yourself to save another's life is "the best course of action for you." It may be the best course of action from a utilitarian perspective, or from a societal one, an emotional one or *gasp* a moral one, but there is no benefit to you in ending your life unless you do not accept death as the end of life, which I believe you do based upon your egocentric views.
It's not the best course of action for me. That 's the point. We all act in accordance with our personal values and beliefs and those values and beliefs are what we deem most important to us. The benefit to us is always there. Sometimes there is greater or lesser benefit to others also.
Would you give your life to save the devil if you thought the devil was evil and would bring great suffering to the world? Likely not. Would you give your life for your child if they were in danger? Likely yes. And if you did not then your fear would prevent it which is another way of acting for yourself based on your beliefs.
And if you want to point out how an argument is falling apart you have to demonstrate or explain how. Your word is not enough.
You are contradicting yourself. You made the claim that humans always pursue the best course of action for themselves, a.k.a. their self interest, even when being compassionate. Now you are stating that a compassionate action such as sacrificing your life for another's sake is NOT the best course of action for yourself, merely one defined by your own ethics. The inconsistencies in your viewpoint is becoming clearer and clearer with every post, though this has turned into a fairly interesting debate and I mean no disrespect just because I think your views are a bit unfounded and rooted in selfishness.
-------------------- vibes and stuff
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: numonkei]
#14119637 - 03/14/11 02:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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sure
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cups
technically "here"


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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander]
#14119942 - 03/14/11 03:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think your views are....rooted in selfishness
I think you're getting through to him.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Icelander
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14120063 - 03/14/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Are you for real?
Now you are stating that a compassionate action such as sacrificing your life for another's sake is NOT the best course of action for yourself, merely one defined by your own ethics.
No contradiction here. It's not in my ethics to sacrifice myself for others but for some it is. That's why I don't do it and others may who believe in it's benefit.
Please try and keep up.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Cups]
#14120084 - 03/14/11 03:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
Quote:
I think your views are....rooted in selfishness
I think you're getting through to him.
Ever get the feeling you're debating with a tree stump?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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An Octopus
cephalopod



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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander]
#14120143 - 03/14/11 04:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Aw, don't give up now. Things were just getting interesting.
-------------------- vibes and stuff
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Icelander
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
#14120167 - 03/14/11 04:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not so much for me cause I've been here before but of course there must be a greater benefit for me in trying to educate you than not cause here I am.
If I thought giving my life for something was of great value to my self image I'd do that but I leave that for others who get value from such actions. Selfish fuckers.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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