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InvisibleRahz
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Icelander]
    #14116798 - 03/13/11 10:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Been studying human nature's dark side a lot lately.  Plenty of it and easy to find.  From the Middle East to Corporations in the West and the guy on the street ripping off and killing and fighting in bars and the list goes on and on.

In fact there is so much of it we cannot but conclude it is basic to our nature.  So isn't nature the real culprit here?




Seems to be all competition and resources.

Good example is the pharma and medical industry. Sick people generate revenue, well people don't. The more sick people, and the longer the sickness, the more money there is to be made. Debt works the same way, as well as most modern business models. I think there's a thread of instinctive nurturing woven into nature, but the basic formula is that a person has worth if they have something to offer, and what they have to offer is their worth. I will guess that in general, the less a person is worth the more they care about humanity in general cause you never know who you're gonna need.

I also wonder when/if this system is going to come crashing down... so a new one just like the old one can spring forth from the ashes.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
    #14116827 - 03/13/11 10:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

An Octopus said:
Well yeah, if we accept that the cause of suffering is desire, then the desire to help someone (especially if there is an inability to do so) will inevitably cause suffering, until the desire is overcome and it simply becomes the entity's nature to bring love and aid to others in everything they do.






Are you saying you don't have a desire to help?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineAn Octopus
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: 4896744]
    #14116829 - 03/13/11 10:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

An Octopus said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Helping others, which is what a clinical psychologist aims to do, which is what a cancer doctor aims to do, which is what many professions aim to do, does cause suffering for the individual doing the helping.

Does that explain?




Well yeah, if we accept that the cause of suffering is desire, then the desire to help someone (especially if there is an inability to do so) will inevitably cause suffering, until the desire is overcome and it simply becomes the entity's nature to bring love and aid to others in everything they do.


Quote:

I don't think you know what to say on a lot of issues.




I don't think you know me or anything about me. You seem angry. Are you angry?




Oh, I am not angry. I am actually rather happy to argue with another aspiring "do-gooder" whose arguments are so easily dismantled.

Your ideas are unoriginal and childish. They fail to look at the world through a reasoned and scientifically accurate approach, and instead rely on emotion.




I would argue that quite a bit of reason and introspection, and even science, contribute to the notion that all life in the Multiverse is inherently interconnected, and that life can be viewed as a general progression of living beings towards "oneness." In fact, I consider the notion that life is divided into individuals locked into little more than the pursuit of their own selfish interests to be unoriginal and childish.

But you seem to be more interested in belittling me than any sort of legitimate debate, so try not to get anxious if I don't respond to your next arrogant, trite "dismantling" of my "emotional" ideas.


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OfflineAn Octopus
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Kickle]
    #14116883 - 03/13/11 10:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

An Octopus said:
Well yeah, if we accept that the cause of suffering is desire, then the desire to help someone (especially if there is an inability to do so) will inevitably cause suffering, until the desire is overcome and it simply becomes the entity's nature to bring love and aid to others in everything they do.






Are you saying you don't have a desire to help?




lol :trolldance:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
    #14116907 - 03/13/11 10:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just saying. Many of us have been down this path. Many of us still have a desire to help as can be exampled by the heartfelt responses to you. Even if you don't see the heart in them :lol:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineAn Octopus
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Kickle]
    #14116935 - 03/13/11 10:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Just saying. Many of us have been down this path. Many of us still have a desire to help as can be exampled by the heartfelt responses to you. Even if you don't see the heart in them :lol:




i agree, maybe you should lay off the drugs for awhile.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
    #14116956 - 03/13/11 10:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sure, sure. Keep up the good work of bullshittin yourself :salute:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineAn Octopus
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Kickle]
    #14116997 - 03/13/11 10:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:maximumtrolling:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
    #14117037 - 03/13/11 10:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You won't last here with that mentality. You seem smart enough, don't close down because you're emotionally hurt. Keep that brain running, assesssing, countering. Keep the emotions temporarily sidelined if you want to post here.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineAn Octopus
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Kickle]
    #14117046 - 03/13/11 10:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I don't have any idea what you are talking about.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
    #14117064 - 03/13/11 11:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Then maybe I have been misinterpreting your troll comments.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineAn Octopus
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
    #14117086 - 03/13/11 11:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

To be concise - I think we can all agree that there is no pre-destined meaning or goal to life other than that which we ourselves impose upon it... and the goal that I have formulated for myself is to first learn all that I possibly can while my brain is in its stages of highest learning, and then to use the knowledge and skills that I gain to bring the greatest benefit the greatest number of beings that I can. Including myself. I am wholly uninterested in carrying on a discussion with someone who finds this goal "childish" or "overly emotional," or whatever else.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
    #14117193 - 03/13/11 11:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

An Octopus said:
the goal that I have formulated for myself is to first learn all that I possibly can while my brain is in its stages of highest learning, and then to use the knowledge and skills that I gain to bring the greatest benefit the greatest number of beings that I can.




I would be greatly benefited by you sending me $50 via Paypal.  :pm: me for details.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
    #14117220 - 03/13/11 11:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The only thing I found childish was you closing down in the face of differing opinions. Your goals are your goals. This all started with suffering my friend. We are in agreement that desire brings suffering. And desiring to help others is a sure bet for bringing suffering. If you can figure out a way around that, pass it on. But until you're on your way, not much is going to stand up against those who have traveled that path. You're not more intelligent or more caring than others here. You can say it, you can convince yourself of it, but it isn't the case. Life provides you with experience that feeds that intellect and that compassion. The same intellect and compassion that many here share. And you most likely will draw many of the same conclusions, given time.

People are trying to give you a head start because of that compassion, not because they want to belittle you. And they're using the intellect to try and get through in the best way they know how.

I'm still young and foolish enough to pursue you through this. More experienced members understand you have to learn it yourself. C'est la vie.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinehalo
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
    #14117260 - 03/13/11 11:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

An Octopus said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Just saying. Many of us have been down this path. Many of us still have a desire to help as can be exampled by the heartfelt responses to you. Even if you don't see the heart in them :lol:




i agree, maybe you should lay off the drugs for awhile.




WTF An Octopus. I've been following this discussion. All kickle's tryna say is that it's great to try to help people, but that you have to be realistic.

No one's really trying to belittle you here from what I can tell. The person that tries to help another takes on their suffering at least on some level. If someone's suffering, and I wanna stop that, I gotta take on some of their suffering. I can help them get rid of that stuff if we work together. They can't do it on their own, and neither can I, but ya know man I can help a little bit. And when I take some of it on, and some of their burden is released, they feel even more empowered to take it on themselves. You see, it's all a game of trickery.  The bodhisattva might as well be a little old lady giggling in the corner saying I told you so.

Also I might be wrong but I think everyone's just trying to help you. Too bad they're suffering (in some way) because they have yet to do so. Lolz abound right up in here

Also An Octopus, there are no need for ad hominem attacks here. This is a forum about magic mushrooms, psychedelics, and drugs in general. Telling someone here to lay off the drugs is the equivalent of telling a poster at a Christian web forum to lay off the praying to Jesus thing for a while. There's just no place for that kind of talk here. That being said Kickle has done nothing to show that he's super fucked up or strung out right now, so I fail to see how that comment of yours makes any sense whatsoever.

Edit: So there were some more replies in between when I started typing this and decided to post it. Whatever I still feel the same way, yet if you are a troll to hell with you for wasting my time.


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All drugs should be legal


Edited by halo (03/13/11 11:44 PM)


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Offlineweshroom
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
    #14117293 - 03/13/11 11:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I also agree with the notion of no "good" or "bad" and this is all a part of nature. But perhaps in that frame of nature, our developed self awareness is what allows us to create more of a balance in this interdependent cosmic web were caught up in. But I mean, without an enemy there is no hero. ...Maybe in referencing the double slit experiment, this self awareness and our self as an observer in the universe looking at itself is what allows for our part in nature to be up to us. And Uhh....maybe like the darkside is natural and shit and blah blah blah unfolding blahblah blah conscious awakening, shift, manifestation blah blah blah unconditional Love the enemy and shit, for they are not really the enemy but ourself in the fuzzyness of interconnectedness.  Im tired, can someone build off this, make sense of it and fill in my gaps.


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OfflineAn Octopus
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Kickle]
    #14117362 - 03/13/11 11:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
The only thing I found childish was you closing down in the face of differing opinions. Your goals are your goals. This all started with suffering my friend. We are in agreement that desire brings suffering. And desiring to help others is a sure bet for bringing suffering. If you can figure out a way around that, pass it on. But until you're on your way, not much is going to stand up against those who have traveled that path. You're not more intelligent or more caring than others here. You can say it, you can convince yourself of it, but it isn't the case. Life provides you with experience that feeds that intellect and that compassion. The same intellect and compassion that many here share. And you most likely will draw many of the same conclusions, given time.

People are trying to give you a head start because of that compassion, not because they want to belittle you. And they're using the intellect to try and get through in the best way they know how.

I'm still young and foolish enough to pursue you through this. More experienced members understand you have to learn it yourself. C'est la vie.




The first person to reply to me directly called me "childish" and "unoriginal," and you supported him. You are trying to convince me that helping others is futile. I do not accept this. You contradict the notion just by attempting to - in a sense - help me by explaining it to me. It's a self-defeating philosophy. Although reading back through the topic I may be misrepresenting your views as equal to those of the "HEDONISTIC PSYCHONAUT" guy. Whatever.

You speak of intelligence and compassion. These are two values that I hold in extremely high regard. I don't understand what is "compassionate" about a purely self-fulfilling lifestyle. Perhaps you could clear that up for me.

Quote:

WTF An Octopus. I've been following this discussion. All kickle's tryna say is that it's great to try to help people, but that you have to be realistic.

No one's really trying to belittle you here from what I can tell. The person that tries to help another takes on their suffering at least on some level. If someone's suffering, and I wanna stop that, I gotta take on some of their suffering. I can help them get rid of that stuff if we work together. They can't do it on their own, and neither can I, but ya know man I can help a little bit. And when I take some of it on, and some of their burden is released, they feel even more empowered to take it on themselves. You see, it's all a game of trickery.  The bodhisattva might as well be a little old lady giggling in the corner saying I told you so.

Also I might be wrong but I think everyone's just trying to help you. Too bad they're suffering (in some way) because they have yet to do so. Lolz abound right up in here

Also An Octopus, there are no need for ad hominem attacks here. This is a forum about magic mushrooms, psychedelics, and drugs in general. Telling someone here to lay off the drugs is the equivalent of telling a poster at a Christian web forum to lay off the praying to Jesus thing for a while. There's just no place for that kind of talk here. That being said Kickle has done nothing to show that he's super fucked up or strung out right now, so I fail to see how that comment of yours makes any sense whatsoever.




I was being facetious with the "lay off the drugs" remark. I wasn't entirely sure whether or not I was being trolled, and I have little patience for trolling on a forum called "Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology." I apologize to whoever if I seemed callous. It's been a long day.


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OfflineAn Octopus
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus] * 1
    #14117406 - 03/14/11 12:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

And no, Halo, the posters debating against me (if you really want to call it 'debating') are not saying "it's great to help people, but be realistic." If they were I would have agreed wholeheartedly. What I am hearing is the notion that helping others is futile, and the only purpose in life is gratuitous self-fulfillment. This is a view that I refuse to entertain. I'm sorry if that offends you guys...


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: An Octopus]
    #14117453 - 03/14/11 12:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

An Octopus said:
I don't understand what is "compassionate" about a purely self-fulfilling lifestyle.


That might be because you don't understand that all lifestyles are purely self-fulfilling, even compassionate ones. :lol:


Quote:

An Octopus said:
It's been a long day.


Have you been out saving the world all day, or what? :superkitty:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineAn Octopus
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Re: who's the real enemy? [Re: Poid]
    #14117472 - 03/14/11 12:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

An Octopus said:
I don't understand what is "compassionate" about a purely self-fulfilling lifestyle.


That might be because you don't understand that all lifestyles are purely self-fulfilling, even compassionate ones.




No, I understand that perfectly. But self-fulfillment at the expense of others is not compassionate, as was my original claim.


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