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OfflineThe_Ghost
ゴースト

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/27/07
Posts: 15,802
Loc: USG Ishimura Flag
Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: The Whale]
    #14111257 - 03/12/11 08:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
It's interesting to observe that the majority of the replies here subtly reference in-group terminology like "we," "unwelcoming," and "new." Certainly I didn't stumble into a tribe did I? I know my chest is hairy but E. O. Wilson said we left our arboreal tendencies back in Gambia.



We're all made of tribes bro :vaped:

Surely you're not attempting to troll are  you?


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/ / / / / / / LISTEN TO MY MUSIC: E X E D / / / / / / /
The universe gives no fucks. And takes no fucks.
May His Circuits Ever Function


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OfflineMoxyOx
Grazin'

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 1,439
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: The Whale]
    #14111299 - 03/12/11 08:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
Here I'm telling you that we must cherish the joys of sharing and communicating ideas through whatever language is necessary, however dense or occasionally lengthy. How can vocabulary be unnecessary?

News feeds, chopped and served, delivered on your screen in flashes of bright light and written at a 5 grade reading level contain as much truth as the pharmaceutical pamphlets they want to insert alongside your psychedelics.

Gimme gimme gimme bullet points!

Discuss why you think psychedelics should be turned into pharmaceuticals?




Well you're not communicating properly nor in a clear method.

There is nothing "sacred" or "mystical" about these drugs aside from the notions you put into them. It's a chemical just like everything else on the particular level, except these have the tendency to make you feel/see funny shit. Har har.

Why should they be turned into pharmaceuticals? Because that's the tendency of modern civilization to extract the main ingredient from a healing plant/fungus and use it solely as "medicine", which I find blatantly stupid. The human system is not meant to be touched and toyed with like it's some sort of mechanical machine. When you ingest one of these plants/fungus there are more chemicals interacting in uniform than what is so keenly observed by scientists. But if it means advancing and legalizing psychedelics, then I'm all for it.


--------------------
No one behind, no one ahead.
The path the ancients cleared has closed.
And the other path, everyone's path,
easy and wide, goes nowhere.
I am alone and find my way.


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OfflineFungal-one
Kneegrow
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/14/10
Posts: 5,356
Loc: No fuckin tellin
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: The_Ghost]
    #14111303 - 03/12/11 08:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

lol

nevermind


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Never judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoes. But, by that time you're a mile away and you got his shoes, so fuck em.


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OfflineFungal-one
Kneegrow
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Registered: 07/14/10
Posts: 5,356
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Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: Fungal-one]
    #14111307 - 03/12/11 08:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Last reply was not to teh_gizznost


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Never judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoes. But, by that time you're a mile away and you got his shoes, so fuck em.


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Invisibleblazenn
rawdog the whale.
Male

Registered: 05/13/09
Posts: 4,584
Loc: Flag
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: The Whale]
    #14111316 - 03/12/11 08:50 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
My humor is tangential; you're actually right in that the biggest benefit, to my mind at least, is that this whole process of pretending psychedelics are miracle pills for aunt Susan and good for the economy, is it will inadvertently increase positive exposure to their real effects, which are a bit more ineffable than page 5 in the DSM-IV.





sorry bro it's not pretend. no one's saying psychedelics are miracle pills. hallucinogens in the wrong hands can have the total opposite effect of a miracle on one's mind when used in the wrong setting.
but the extremely vulnerable state of mind that hallucinogens can put you in does amazing things for allowing one to experience true self introspection without worrying or obsessing over the same little things that you normally think about when sober- at least this is what i've come to interpret how psychedelics help me on a mental level.


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: Flag
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: The_Ghost]
    #14111330 - 03/12/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Surely you're not attempting to troll are  you?




I'm just full of ideas. I'm not trying to troll anyone.

Since the conversation meandered from a discussion of scientific egotism and psychedelic control freaks to my incompetency as a newcomer, I figured I would discuss the undercurrents of group-think that tends to run rampant on forums and other social media collectives.

It's all germane to psychedelics, of course, which more or less predictably destroy the net superficiality that encourages identifying self versus other. For the same reason, the researcher is no different than the compound; the doctor is no different from the patient; the institution is no different than the members. Psychedelic experiences should be extrapolated away from the textbooks and actually used as a lens to interpret reality differently. It's more than pretty colors and repressed memories.

Quote:

It's a chemical just like everything else on the particular level, except these have the tendency to make you feel/see funny shit. Har har.




That's interesting. Human cultures the world over have devoted entire ideologies and practices, art and music, ceremonies and philosophies, for the sake of "funny shit"? I know Bill Hicks said the cow poop origination is a cosmic giggle, but there is more mystery here than a chemical reaction. McKenna would slap you.

Quote:

sorry bro it's not pretend. no one's saying psychedelics are miracle pills. hallucinogens in the wrong hands can have the total opposite effect of a miracle on one's mind when used in the wrong setting.
but the extremely vulnerable state of mind that hallucinogens can put you in does amazing things for allowing one to experience true self introspection without worrying or obsessing over the same little things that you normally think about when sober- at least this is what i've come to interpret how psychedelics help me on a mental level.




I like this reply.


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OfflineMoxyOx
Grazin'

Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 1,439
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: The Whale]
    #14111445 - 03/12/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:

That's interesting. Human cultures the world over have devoted entire ideologies and practices, art and music, ceremonies and philosophies, for the sake of "funny shit"? I know Bill Hicks said the cow poop origination is a cosmic giggle, but there is more mystery here than a chemical reaction. McKenna would slap you.





WHAT THE HELL DO YOU SUPPOSE WE SHOULD DO WITH THESE DRUGS THEN BRO? Unleash them into the hands of the general population and have another era of strung out hippies with vague notions of ecstasy and bliss running through their minds? Fuck that.

But seriously, what do you think is a better route to go with this?


--------------------
No one behind, no one ahead.
The path the ancients cleared has closed.
And the other path, everyone's path,
easy and wide, goes nowhere.
I am alone and find my way.


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: Flag
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: MoxyOx] * 1
    #14111508 - 03/12/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU SUPPOSE WE SHOULD DO WITH THESE DRUGS THEN BRO? Unleash them into the hands of the general population and have another era of strung out hippies with vague notions of ecstasy and bliss running through their minds? Fuck that.




All of humanity is the "general population." I don't take psychedelics because some rich white guy with enough time, money, and patience to stay in higher education decides I deserve to.

Ecstasy and bliss are not vague notions:

http://www.paradise-engineering.com/
www.hedweb.org
www.mdma.net
www.empathogens.com

etc.

Quote:

But seriously, what do you think is a better route to go with this?




"All plants should be declared legal" - McKenna

Plus:

# Privacy:  What and how you think should be private unless you choose to share it.  The use of technologies such as brain imaging and scanning must remain consensual and any information so revealed should remain confidential.  The right to privacy must be found to encompass the inner domain of thought.

# Autonomy:  Self-determination over one’s own cognition is central to free will. Decisions concerning whether or how to change a person’s thought processes must remain the province of the individual as opposed to government or industry.

# Choice:  The capabilities of the human mind should not be limited.  So long as people do not directly harm others, governments should not criminally prohibit cognitive enhancement or the experience of any mental state.

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/mission.html


--------------------


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OfflineHajnal
(ノ´ヮ´)ノ*:・゚✧


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Registered: 01/22/10
Posts: 2,071
Loc: New Eden
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: The Whale]
    #14112398 - 03/13/11 12:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Nothing personal, but you sound cracked out. Your head may be in the right place, but come down to our level first.


--------------------
Hajnal ['hɒjnɒl] - An elegant mixture of blood and circuitry; sorrow and love fill your systems, like the stars and black holes encompass the ∞.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: Hajnal]
    #14112470 - 03/13/11 12:23 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

OP, if I could rate you 5 shrooms I would.  You sound like an intelligent guy for sure; I don't have much to say on the topic of the OP but I see no problem with letting psychedelics be used as pharmaceuticals; why not let them be used to help people?  Of course I would prefer their use not to be solely restricted to pharmaceuticals but I feel like they should be incorporated into society in such a way so as to educate those taking them in using the drug responsibly.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineCharliem

Registered: 08/27/10
Posts: 481
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #14112714 - 03/13/11 01:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Dude why are you even thinking about this? What a pointless topic...


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OfflineRemix
grammer natze
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Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 4,171
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: deCypher]
    #14112761 - 03/13/11 01:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
I see no problem with letting psychedelics be used as pharmaceuticals; why not let them be used to help people?  Of course I would prefer their use not to be solely restricted to pharmaceuticals but I feel like they should be incorporated into society in such a way so as to educate those taking them in using the drug responsibly.




Agreed.

Doctors and pharmacists can offer invaluable advise to people looking to experiment with "drugs" regarding everything from dosage advise to a general guide to safety.

On the other hand, I also agree with OP that people need to discover their own truths with regards to psychedelic experiences (and experiences in general).

Too often, IMO, people subject themselves to the opinions of experts and subvert their own learnings from life-adventures in favor of "professionals" who have built observations, theories and maps of reality based on possibly unrelatable and particular life experiences of which may have very little bearing on the subversive individual in question.

It's a complex issue, though. The marvels of modern technology and scientific achievement have made a compelling argument against the individual's urge for purpose (telos) and a reality that goes deeper than reductionist notions of matter. This is quite a dilemma for the sort of human who regularly dives wholly into the supposedly invisible landscape presented by "mind manifesting" experiences.


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: Flag
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: Charliem]
    #14113744 - 03/13/11 11:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Remix & deCypher,

I agree that helping people and contributing helpful advice is a benefit, and should be among the primary goals for any physician. One interesting feature of the psychedelic experience is that it makes you somewhat immune to hyper-suggestibility, which allows people to come to terms with (T)ruth on their own accord. For this reason, it's also unlikely that the experience can be manipulated to mean anything other than the way it feels to the individual. I suppose it is the skewed presentation, greedy financial investments, and grappling for control that irks me the most right now.

Quote:

Charliem said:
Dude why are you even thinking about this? What a pointless topic...




I know, right. And 5-HT2A receptor agonism is boring too. Who needs Tihkal anyway?


--------------------


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Offlinecrazyboy25
International man of mystery

Registered: 05/31/09
Posts: 275
Last seen: 11 years, 6 days
Re: Fuck the "Nature" of Psychedelic Research [Re: The Whale]
    #14113892 - 03/13/11 11:51 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
No one makes decisions as to the directions of our social change. These things belong to systemic behavior. It's more complicated than a guy with a microscope and a big bank account who thinks he is facilitating the psychedelic Renaissance.





They aren't trying to facilitate a psychedelic renaissance. Many are trying to understand the mechanisms of actions or various receptors and the metabolic pathways of the drugs. Some are trying to determine the harmful effects of them or the effects of long term use. In short, they're scientists. They aren't trying to create legal psychedelic therapies.


--------------------
"Life without freedom is not life... freedom is life."


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: Flag
Re: Fuck the [Re: crazyboy25]
    #14113968 - 03/13/11 12:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

They aren't trying to create legal psychedelic therapies.




Who do you think funds their studies?

"MAPS sponsors clinical trials to develop MDMA, other psychedelics, and marijuana into prescription medicines." (maps.org)

Within just over 2 years, the Heffter Research Institute, has modified their research mission to developing "controlled" medicines...

From their website:

"The Heffter Research Institute will neither condemn classical hallucinogenic drugs nor advocate their uncontrolled use."

This seemingly independent, professional, and reserved ambiguity regarding usage is not conducive whatsoever to real values of compassion. How can you, at one level, be for the termination of suffering, and at the same time fail to commit to a policy that promotes these experiences outside of the laboratory or doctor's office?

It's not a lack of committal due to legal concerns. It's fucking hegemony... and I don't want it.


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: Flag
Re: Fuck the [Re: The Whale]
    #14114015 - 03/13/11 12:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"Controlled use." lol



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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Fuck the [Re: The Whale]
    #14114107 - 03/13/11 12:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
Quote:

They aren't trying to create legal psychedelic therapies.




Who do you think funds their studies?

"MAPS sponsors clinical trials to develop MDMA, other psychedelics, and marijuana into prescription medicines." (maps.org)





The vast majority of funds comes from private donations. 

In 18 years of existence, Heffter has not developed or brought to market a commercial product, and they are a non-profit organization.

MAPS is also non-profit (501 c).

Both organizations have a clear purpose:  which is scientific research and the promotion of knowledge.

Despite these glaringly obvious facts, what would be the problem with developing a compound for clinical use?


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: Flag
Re: Fuck the [Re: badchad]
    #14114201 - 03/13/11 01:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

There are lots of exemptions, back doors, and corruption in non-profits. There aren't even any federal regulations for employee salaries. Rick Doblin is a punky Jewster: you think his hand ain't in the honey pot? I kid, I kid. Me and Rick are down like 4 flat tires.

Why am I contesting clinical development? 1) There should always be diversity (i.e. disagreement) in the discourse for the sake of caution and rationality. Too many people in the psychedelic culture are anxious and fucking gung-ho for any legitimization of their esoteric insights, and developing pharmaceuticals (sounds more truthful than "clinical use" huh?) is currently filling that gap. At the Psychedelic Science in the 21st Century conference, for example, there were way too many over-exuberant people who were willing to throw money and support at any one of the suits on stage.

2) We instead need to be investing the time and resources into advocating for legalization, for human cultural rights, and cognitive liberty. The medicinal properties of these compounds exist INDEPENDENT of a fucking prescription; they exist independent of any medical credentials, clinical trial, or research model; they exist independent of health care and income levels; they are free, ubiquitous in nature, and should not be harnessed and controlled like fucking natural gas or petroleum.

--------

Not because I think non-profit are evil scams, but once again, just to balance the debate:

Nonprofits are increasingly launching business-like ventures to sustain themselves through the recession

http://blog.nola.com/tpmoney/2009/03/nonprofits_are_increasingly_la.html

Why a non-profit organization can still make its employees/corporate officers lots of money

http://www.creditinfocenter.com/debt/non-profit.shtml

Non-profit Taxes: When Non-profits Make a Profit

http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/business-structures/non-profit/non-profit-earning-income.html


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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
Re: Fuck the [Re: The Whale]
    #14114357 - 03/13/11 01:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
Why am I contesting clinical development? 1) There should always be diversity (i.e. disagreement) in the discourse for the sake of caution and rationality. Too many people in the psychedelic culture are anxious and fucking gung-ho for any legitimization of their esoteric insights, and developing pharmaceuticals (sounds more truthful than "clinical use" huh?) is currently filling that gap. At the Psychedelic Science in the 21st Century conference, for example, there were way too many over-exuberant people who were willing to throw money and support at any one of the suits on stage.




There is plenty of "diversity", and plenty of people will contest, and disagree with the use of hallucinogens, clinical or otherwise.  If someone wants to "throw money" at a cause, why shouldn't they?  You can do with your own money what you please.


Quote:

The Whale said:2) We instead need to be investing the time and resources into advocating for legalization, for human cultural rights, and cognitive liberty. The medicinal properties of these compounds exist INDEPENDENT of a fucking prescription; they exist independent of any medical credentials, clinical trial, or research model; they exist independent of health care and income levels; they are free, ubiquitous in nature, and should not be harnessed and controlled like fucking natural gas or petroleum.




Science and law are separate.  It's not the job of scientists to change laws.

If you disagree with an institution's vision or cause, so be it, pursue your own.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: Flag
Re: Fuck the [Re: badchad]
    #14114373 - 03/13/11 02:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for reading and sharing your opinion.


--------------------


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