|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
|
Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses?
#14108201 - 03/12/11 10:32 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The other topic asking this question just turned into a debate about welfare and the culture of the wild west, but I think this example gets to the crux of the issue of socialized health care, so I'm asking it again.
If you support the police and the army but don't support public health care, what is the key difference?
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Freedom]
#14108214 - 03/12/11 10:39 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
habit/familiarity.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,049
Last seen: 35 minutes, 2 seconds
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Freedom]
#14108245 - 03/12/11 10:47 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
The govt. protects the nation from foreign threats, when idividuals become ill it is very rarely a threat to the nation and when it is a threat, it already does to some extent protect the populace through the work of the CDC.
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Freedom]
#14108414 - 03/12/11 11:21 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
how exactly dos public health care protect me from anything?
how do the police or the military protect me for that matter...
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#14108867 - 03/12/11 12:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
public health would protect you by using medicine to treat illness. say you get pneumonia, healthcare would protect you by giving you antibiotics. pretty simple.
if you don't support public police and armies, my question isn't really directed at you, however in theory the existence of police dissuades thugs from taking your property and/or harming you, and armies dissuade foreign nations from taking your property and/or harming you and/or enslaving you...
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Freedom]
#14110389 - 03/12/11 06:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said: If you support the police and the army but don't support public health care, what is the key difference?
I don't think it's really a matter of there being a key difference, I just think it's a matter of us not having enough money to fund it due to the fact that we're spending tons of our money on the police and the armed forces, which are more important.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Freedom]
#14110793 - 03/12/11 07:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said: The other topic asking this question just turned into a debate about welfare and the culture of the wild west, but I think this example gets to the crux of the issue of socialized health care, so I'm asking it again.
If you support the police and the army but don't support public health care, what is the key difference?
In the US, the federal government has the power to form police units and military units under the constitution. It does not have this authority with regards to healthcare. Further, the government may not take property without due process of law, and in constitutional fasion. This tends to be the problem. Rather than objecting to healthcare, the the objection and legal problem is the confiscation of wealth. That it is to be used for healthcare is incidental.
Practically: The military is to protect the soveirgnty of the nation, to ensure it continues and protects its rights and hopefully the rights of the people therein. The police enforce the laws, ideally, and carry them out.
Both of these are state functions for the benefit of the state. This is not similar to healthcare.
Further, vacteria and viruses don't infringe upon anyone's rights, at least by most accounts- unless you accept some moral right against non-sentient forces incapable of observing such nor of moral choice.
You have no right to police protection, military protection, nor health care in the US. That the government provides all three or otherwise facilitates the delivery of such, does not matter.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: johnm214]
#14110892 - 03/12/11 07:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
johnm214 said: Rather than objecting to healthcare, the the objection and legal problem is the confiscation of wealth. That it is to be used for healthcare is incidental.
If someone objects to the confiscation of wealth, wouldn't they also be opposed to all taxes? What are taxes besides confiscation of wealth?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Freedom]
#14111289 - 03/12/11 08:46 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said: public health would protect you by using medicine to treat illness. say you get pneumonia, healthcare would protect you by giving you antibiotics. pretty simple.
so in other words it's just like the cops, after you're sick they'll give you something, after you're robbed the cops show up... can I ask how that's protecting me if the bad shit has already happened?
Quote:
if you don't support public police and armies, my question isn't really directed at you, however in theory the existence of police dissuades thugs from taking your property and/or harming you, and armies dissuade foreign nations from taking your property and/or harming you and/or enslaving you...
I was robbed 5 times when I moved to this town I'm in now, it's not a high crime area, I had livestock shot on 2 separate occasions, again, this isnt a high crime area and since I'd just moved here it's not as though anyone had a vendetta, they just saw an opportunity to commit a crime, can I ask how the police protected me?
one day I see a strange truck drive up my other driveway and start toward a mobile home I was storing stuff in, I hopped in my truck, drove up there and walked the 5 men that went into the place down to the road where I held them at gun point until the police arrived... how did the police protect me?
the US has 300mil civilians and 600 million guns, what army will invade? with the bulk of US military overseas, how are they actually protecting the citizens?
do you understand what protection is? protection is prevention, it's not trying to clean up a mess after the fact, the US had knowledge of the 9/11 attacks and did nothing, was america protected then?
|
Baby_Hitler
Errorist




Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 7 hours, 44 minutes
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Poid]
#14111449 - 03/12/11 09:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Rights are for pussies. Nobody has a right to the fruits of their labor.
-------------------- This space for rent
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#14111587 - 03/12/11 09:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
iluvfungi



Registered: 06/17/09
Posts: 1,488
Loc: Oakland, CA USA
Last seen: 13 years, 6 days
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#14129558 - 03/16/11 08:42 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: how exactly dos public health care protect me from anything?
how do the police or the military protect me for that matter...
You indirectly are protected by both the police and the military. Without them total chaos would irrupt. Personally if police didn't exist I'd go on a mass murder spree, brutally murdering as many people as I could.
Hey, maybe eventually I'd hunt you down and kill you. That would be my life mission if it wasn't illegal. You should personally perhaps be grateful. I'm sure many others would join the blood fest in the event military and police didn't exist. This is strictly confirmed by older civilizations whom used to kill each other for no real reason other then just to kill themselves.
Don't you feel that in your DNA? You were born to die, what matters if it was today or in 100 years? That is the glory of this life, to live or die, as long as it was in the name of some supposed honor it was worthwhile.
In the event of no order, I suppose the mission would be to kill everyone else. Honestly I've always wanted to kill someone. I think it has to be such a great thrill. I would have loved to join the military, but I was an only son and did too many drugs in my teens to have the guts to go.
But that doesn't mean that if the world goes to complete chaos someday I won't kill someone. Aren't you just fascinated by the concept of taking someones life in front of your eyes? They blow it up in the movies all the time.
Everyone is always afraid of me in real life, most likely because they know I would kill them, without any remorse for something trivial if they pushed it. I don't want it ever to happen, but if it does, no hesitation. I've learned my lesson in going easy in a battle. If someone wants to fight me, it's to the fucking death. Either kill me, because I will kill you.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: iluvfungi]
#14129609 - 03/16/11 08:55 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Therapy.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
pothead_bob
Resident Pothead


Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 1,811
Loc: Your computer screen
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Freedom]
#14130254 - 03/16/11 11:38 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Will self-inflicted diseases like heart disease and certain forms of cancer be excluded from public-funded healthcare then?
-------------------- No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge which is itself based upon the mathematical sciences. -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519) Speak well of your enemies. After all, you made them.
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#14131185 - 03/16/11 01:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Freedom said: public health would protect you by using medicine to treat illness. say you get pneumonia, healthcare would protect you by giving you antibiotics. pretty simple.
so in other words it's just like the cops, after you're sick they'll give you something, after you're robbed the cops show up... can I ask how that's protecting me if the bad shit has already happened?
the virus example is not analogous to the police example you just gave. Antibiotics help protect you from death and further injury even after you have acquired pneumonia.
If you want complete 100% protection you're never going to get it, the world doesn't work that way. But vaccines provide a very high level of protection.
Quote:
I was robbed 5 times when I moved to this town I'm in now, it's not a high crime area, I had livestock shot on 2 separate occasions, again, this isnt a high crime area and since I'd just moved here it's not as though anyone had a vendetta, they just saw an opportunity to commit a crime, can I ask how the police protected me?
one day I see a strange truck drive up my other driveway and start toward a mobile home I was storing stuff in, I hopped in my truck, drove up there and walked the 5 men that went into the place down to the road where I held them at gun point until the police arrived... how did the police protect me?
the US has 300mil civilians and 600 million guns, what army will invade? with the bulk of US military overseas, how are they actually protecting the citizens?
do you understand what protection is? protection is prevention, it's not trying to clean up a mess after the fact, the US had knowledge of the 9/11 attacks and did nothing, was america protected then?
It seems like you're thinking that either the police prevent all crime or no crime. I can't help but think your just looking to argue, because the basic theory of police and the justice system is not just that it punishes people but that it deters people. Not 100%, but some unmeasurable percentage. This is a very basic idea fundamental to our social contract.
2nd to this IMO is the police taking out career criminals and psychopaths. A serial killer may get 20 people before the police catch him, but when they catch him #21, 22, 23.... are all protected.
So if you have been protected by the deterrent of police or the arrest of a psychopath, there is no evidence, for you can't prove that you went unharmed on a particular day because of the deterrent.
The only way to accurately measure the effectiveness of the police would be to make two earths, one with an America with police and one with and America without.
|
ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: pothead_bob]
#14136301 - 03/17/11 11:33 AM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
pothead_bob said: Will self-inflicted diseases like heart disease and certain forms of cancer be excluded from public-funded healthcare then?
^^This.
What about sports injuries, injuries from being dumb, and injuries that result from breaking laws (even stupid laws like j-walking). Once the state has an interest in your health, they have an interest in preventing you from hurting yourself, which means they have an interest in keeping you out of risky scenarios. And they just happen to have coercive power to attempt to modify your behavior accordingly...
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14136834 - 03/17/11 01:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Ok, sticking with my analogy, why would you support the state having police come to your aid after you do something stupid (walk into that dark alley way, hang out with the wrong people, etc..) but not have the state have doctors come to your aid after you do something stupid?
|
johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Freedom]
#14136878 - 03/17/11 01:43 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said: Ok, sticking with my analogy, why would you support the state having police come to your aid after you do something stupid (walk into that dark alley way, hang out with the wrong people, etc..) but not have the state have doctors come to your aid after you do something stupid?
Who has objected to doctors coming to your aid?
This kind of construction seems a dishonest question: it excludes the objectionable content from discussion.
I've noticed and commented frequently upon the tendancy of people to speak of the services provided exclusively when speaking of a government program. Generally this seems to betray support for the program or the power. It seems a dishonest tactic to employ this style of question: as if someone has a problem with state having doctors come to your aid. When has that ever been objected to? If it isn't then why would you even address it as if it was controversial?
|
Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: iluvfungi]
#14137008 - 03/17/11 02:16 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
iluvfungi said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: how exactly dos public health care protect me from anything?
how do the police or the military protect me for that matter...
You indirectly are protected by both the police and the military. Without them total chaos would irrupt. Personally if police didn't exist I'd go on a mass murder spree, brutally murdering as many people as I could.
Hey, maybe eventually I'd hunt you down and kill you.
I guess you're unaware, I welcome the chaos and violence, it's what makes me thrive
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#14137014 - 03/17/11 02:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: ...it's what makes me thrive
That, and meff. 
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
|